I challenge any religious person to give me one rational reason for believing...

@rawsavon

1) It depends.

2) They are only insults if you choose to identify

with these ideas.

depend3ncy

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

@rawsavon

1) It depends.

2) They are only insults if you choose to identify

with these ideas.

rawsavon

1) What i consider to be the more appropriate approach to the situation. In this case, my account

has already been suspended for 4 days because of making one insult in a trolling manner, which was

not even serious, so i don't really want a permanent ban for bluntly calling people such and such.

2) WOOPS. Their problem.

I see angels. :| The mere fact that particles have come together in endlessly varying forms, and even coalesced into thinking self aware beings, and done so in an environment that holds together with natural laws that govern everything just right in order to hold said particles together, give them mass, and cause them to attract to each other is a miracle in itself. The fact that it all comes together and actually works, and the fact that it has worked long enough for the Universe to evolve to a state of self awareness that we are currently at.

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

@rawsavon

1) It depends.

2) They are only insults if you choose to identify

with these ideas.

Teenaged

Why would a person with enough intelligence to see the circus

that religion is continue to believe?

I see angels. :| The mere fact that particles have come together in endlessly varying forms, and even coalesced into thinking self aware beings, and done so in an environment that holds together with natural laws that govern everything just right in order to hold said particles together, give them mass, and cause them to attract to each other is a miracle in itself. The fact that it all comes together and actually works, and the fact that it has worked long enough for the Universe to evolve to a state of self awareness that we are currently at.

MystikFollower

Yes, but where are the flying white humans with hdr effects and wings ? XD

Lets go by numbers.Billions dont see angels, your visions are hallucinogenic in nature, caused by your intense belief and perhaps a few medical problems.Why is it you see angels and others dont? Everybody sees gravity at work.depend3ncy

@vandalvideo

Make me some pie! Do it!

Remember, you are the pie maker!

= I'm not supposed to convince you of

anything,you can do that yourself, if you like.

Why dont you tell me why the minority is to be

favored over the majority?

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

@rawsavon

1) It depends.

2) They are only insults if you choose to identify

with these ideas.

depend3ncy

1) What i consider to be the more appropriate approach to the situation. In this case, my account

has already been suspended for 4 days because of making one insult in a trolling manner, which was

not even serious, so i don't really want a permanent ban for bluntly calling people such and such.

2) WOOPS. Their problem.

I guess that is about the most honest answer I will get from you.
...doesn't it fell better to actually type what you think than to spend time thinking of ways to hint around it.

@vandalvideo

Make me some pie! Do it!

Remember, you are the pie maker!

= I'm not supposed to convince you of

anything,you can do that yourself, if you like.

Why dont you tell me why the minority is to be

favored over the majority?

depend3ncy

But i'm not a scientist ^^ ,

i have merely seen it more useful in my experience

of this world than religion.

But i'm not a scientist ^^ ,

i have merely seen it more useful in my experience

of this world than religion.

depend3ncy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRAN_8CkvQ&feature=related

Here you go

The only Religion I believe in is justice:P

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

But i'm not a scientist ^^ ,

i have merely seen it more useful in my experience

of this world than religion.

Vandalvideo

Says you.

Says you.depend3ncy

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]Says you.Vandalvideo

Their faith is based on things that arent there.

An insane person does not admit he's insane.

You are making statements as if there are people

having actual visions all the time, who have their

behavior and lifestyle to back it up.

Your arguments are hypothetical, mine are based on

what is present in vast quantity.

Wake up.

Denying everything is easy.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]There is plenty of evidence that human reasoning and senses arent all that flawed, if they were than how would humans have continued to advance so much in medical science and technology? How come I dont see a plane randomly crashing down cuz the pilot was suddenly fooled by his senses??Vandalvideo

Lastly how exactly does your post argue in favour of a belief in god?? Heck I dont see what part of life does it argue in favour off? You dont believe in reason, well then dont study anything for your exam and have faith you'll pass anyways, you'll see what happens.

So our senses and mind are all deluded at the same time? When you say "only" argument well this is a pretty damn big argument. Our senses can give feedback if the reason we applied was effective or not, why are you constantly labelling reason and senses seperately?

Look at any science and how humanity has advanced in it. Humans can now go outside their own planet, what is that? An illusion? We are being fooled to think that we conquered so much of physics and gravity to be able to pull it off?

Humans can now survive very deadly diseases like cancer when previously it was almost impossible. What's happening again? Am I being deluded that my mother survived cancer? If there was a delusion then why are the senses responding back in kind by a better state of health?

Reason tells you to go the doctor if you have a medical problem. many people's faith tells them to have faith and we all now how that can go...

Your reasoning has absolutely no merits. What evidence do you have to support what you are saying? Seems like you are using reason lol.

Wake up.

Denying everything is easy.

depend3ncy

Believing:to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so (definition courtesy of Dictionary.com)

So basically just that. There doesn't need for me to be proof that Im going to wake up in the morning, Im just going to go right on and believe its going to happen. Whether that belief is reliable or not, no one knows. Simple enough, right?

Second, your second quote on your sig is full of contradiction.

1- if that guy was born and raised as an atheist then he is also victim of that accidental birth so what was the point of saying what he said?

2- if he wasn't then he proves that people are not robots and can think for themselves for whatever they want to believe in and it has nothing to do with birth.

HAZE-Unit

2. He never suggested that we are robots. However it is a fact that most people believe in the same religion that their parents did and it is very unreasonable to think that somehow most people find their parents religion to be the most "logical" out of the others. The only conclusion left is that most people definitely dont think it through enough or lack the IQ to think the logical issues instead of the emotional ones. They simply develop a bias towards that religion due to what their parents feed them and most simply are never able to get "out" of it. Richard dawkins suggests that it needs a high level of intelligence to get out of a religion one was indoctrinated in and I agree with him, it depends on how absolute the parents were in teaching their child about religion.

Also the bible was written by man, so in my opinion it can't be right since man make assumptions all the time and we still don't know what happens when we die for sure, so how can we be sure that people back then even knew.

It's all an assumption mainly used to scare us into being ''good'' people and making ''right'' choices. I have no religious beliefs but it doesnt mean I don't have morals, so religion isnt needed to keep me in check.

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

Second, your second quote on your sig is full of contradiction.

1- if that guy was born and raised as an atheist then he is also victim of that accidental birth so what was the point of saying what he said?

2- if he wasn't then he proves that people are not robots and can think for themselves for whatever they want to believe in and it has nothing to do with birth.

Gambler_3

2. He never suggested that we are robots. However it is a fact that most people believe in the same religion that their parents did and it is very unreasonable to think that somehow most people find their parents religion to be the most "logical" out of the others. The only conclusion left is that most people definitely dont think it through enough or lack the IQ to think the logical issues instead of the emotional ones. They simply develop a bias towards that religion due to what their parents feed them and most simply are never able to get "out" of it. Richard dawkins suggests that it needs a high level of intelligence to get out of a religion one was indoctrinated in and I agree with him, it depends on how absolute the parents were in teaching their child about religion.

Well spoken.

I also may have some insight in the matter of why people think that Atheists bash believers: It is not simply a matter of taking for granted something that cannot be measured, witnessed or proven, I think this has to do with the following:

Too many beliefs have a hippochritical way of viewing man.The belief sets a standard of what is good or bad, related to core values, but too many religions and prominent figures in that given religion (IMO) seem to preach one thing while doing another. It closes off man and pushes him/her into a form that not many people fit into.

I'm not saying it's wrong to try to become something better than you are, but IMO you cannot label normal human behavior as "sin" for instance. Christianity does not see man as another animal on our planet, but as a seperate being...something greater and havecreated these rules of what we should be like and not.By doing this it denies many of our instincsas animals(I think animal or mammal is the most fitting word).

Another issue may be that atheists feel that having to rely on something other than themselves in a situation decreeses the amount of power and responsability we are empowered with. A good example is the situation where a young person is denied medical treatment by the parents, based on belief. This way of stripping man of his/her power makes me certainly unconfortable, I want to be in charge of myself and I know that if I need something to be different; I do something about it, I don't pray and hope that something will happen without my interference.

Does this make any sense?

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

Second, your second quote on your sig is full of contradiction.

1- if that guy was born and raised as an atheist then he is also victim of that accidental birth so what was the point of saying what he said?

2- if he wasn't then he proves that people are not robots and can think for themselves for whatever they want to believe in and it has nothing to do with birth.

Oey666

2. He never suggested that we are robots. However it is a fact that most people believe in the same religion that their parents did and it is very unreasonable to think that somehow most people find their parents religion to be the most "logical" out of the others. The only conclusion left is that most people definitely dont think it through enough or lack the IQ to think the logical issues instead of the emotional ones. They simply develop a bias towards that religion due to what their parents feed them and most simply are never able to get "out" of it. Richard dawkins suggests that it needs a high level of intelligence to get out of a religion one was indoctrinated in and I agree with him, it depends on how absolute the parents were in teaching their child about religion.

Well spoken.

I also may have some insight in the matter of why people think that Atheists bash believers: It is not simply a matter of taking for granted something that cannot be measured, witnessed or proven, I think this has to do with the following:

Too many beliefs have a hippochritical way of viewing man.The belief sets a standard of what is good or bad, related to core values, but too many religions and prominent figures in that given religion (IMO) seem to preach one thing while doing another. It closes off man and pushes him/her into a form that not many people fit into.

I'm not saying it's wrong to try to become something better than you are, but IMO you cannot label normal human behavior as "sin" for instance. Christianity does not see man as another animal on our planet, but as a seperate being...something greater and havecreated these rules of what we should be like and not.By doing this it denies many of our instincsas animals(I think animal or mammal is the most fitting word).

Another issue may be that atheists feel that having to rely on something other than themselves in a situation decreeses the amount of power and responsability we are empowered with. A good example is the situation where a young person is denied medical treatment by the parents, based on belief. This way of stripping man of his/her power makes me certainly unconfortable, I want to be in charge of myself and I know that if I need something to be different; I do something about it, I don't pray and hope that something will happen without my interference.

Does this make any sense?

indeed. Another example, masturbation is a sin. I would love it if a preist could look me in the eyes and honestly tell me he doesnt do it.

[QUOTE="Oey666"]

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]1. Every child is born an atheist(lack of belief one) so it is the only default position we have. A child is completely indifferent to god and no god until he is "told" what is "right". Whether a child is a victim in the case of atheist parents will depend entirely on the parents, they should allow the child to think for himself and percieve things his way and not "tell him" that it is some undisputable fact that god doesnt exist.

2. He never suggested that we are robots. However it is a fact that most people believe in the same religion that their parents did and it is very unreasonable to think that somehow most people find their parents religion to be the most "logical" out of the others. The only conclusion left is that most people definitely dont think it through enough or lack the IQ to think the logical issues instead of the emotional ones. They simply develop a bias towards that religion due to what their parents feed them and most simply are never able to get "out" of it. Richard dawkins suggests that it needs a high level of intelligence to get out of a religion one was indoctrinated in and I agree with him, it depends on how absolute the parents were in teaching their child about religion.

Xorital

Well spoken.

I also may have some insight in the matter of why people think that Atheists bash believers: It is not simply a matter of taking for granted something that cannot be measured, witnessed or proven, I think this has to do with the following:

Too many beliefs have a hippochritical way of viewing man.The belief sets a standard of what is good or bad, related to core values, but too many religions and prominent figures in that given religion (IMO) seem to preach one thing while doing another. It closes off man and pushes him/her into a form that not many people fit into.

I'm not saying it's wrong to try to become something better than you are, but IMO you cannot label normal human behavior as "sin" for instance. Christianity does not see man as another animal on our planet, but as a seperate being...something greater and havecreated these rules of what we should be like and not.By doing this it denies many of our instincsas animals(I think animal or mammal is the most fitting word).

Another issue may be that atheists feel that having to rely on something other than themselves in a situation decreeses the amount of power and responsability we are empowered with. A good example is the situation where a young person is denied medical treatment by the parents, based on belief. This way of stripping man of his/her power makes me certainly unconfortable, I want to be in charge of myself and I know that if I need something to be different; I do something about it, I don't pray and hope that something will happen without my interference.

Does this make any sense?

indeed. Another example, masturbation is a sin. I would love it if a preist could look me in the eyes and honestly tell me he doesnt do it.

I have faith in my God. Thats it. I love Him so much that though i cannot see him, I have faith in Him.

I have faith in my God. Thats it. I love Him so much that though i cannot see him, I have faith in Him.

naomigate

I have faith in my God. Thats it. I love Him so much that though i cannot see him, I have faith in Him.

naomigate

well its your choice if you wanna be a muppet in the lies of the world.

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

rawsavon

Being forced to go to a school where i'm the only non believer being able to take it out like this makes me feel better and I honestly don't care if its wrong since I get worse treatment than I could ever say to any of you.

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

rawsavon

Dude. Both "sides" do this. It's a natural part of discussing something that is so profound as belief. The trick is not to let it get to you and focus your discussion on the topic, rather than feeding the insult-trolls.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

Xorital

Being forced to go to a school where i'm the only non believer being able to take it out like this makes me feel better and I honestly don't care if its wrong since I get worse treatment than I could ever say to any of you.

So you get treated bad IRL => treat people bad here
Makes sense :roll:

....in whatever god you worship instead of the thousands of other gods?

Yes only one reason and I will convert. Unfortunately making absolute statements is not allowed in this forum as it comes under "forcing your beliefs onto others and offending others". But I am struggling to find how is it even a debate anymore whether being religious is rational or not? Due to the whole world being literally connected now, we know the extraordinary no. of different belief systems that have been there with mankind. In the old times this was not possible as you only knew about the more popular ones and not the ridiculous amonts that we know off now.

You can make all the philisophical arguments and intelligent design in favour of a creator or personal god all you want but how do you even make an educated guess as to which god is the real one? You could feel the presence of god as intensely as it gets but you really dont have much of a choice apart from being agnostic...

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

Oey666

Dude. Both "sides" do this. It's a natural part of discussing something that is so profound as belief. The trick is not to let it get to you and focus your discussion on the topic, rather than feeding the insult-trolls.

I don't really see the believers doing this very much at all
-there were 2 users that did, but they are banned (or don't post anymore)

I would love to have an actual 'discussion'
-PM me when one starts...seriously

All the MAJOR religions on this planet are based on the same god. Christianity, Jews & Muslims all worship the same god, but have diffrent Prophets and or saviors. I have chosen Christianity because i belive in the teachings of christ and love him for his sacrifice for us.Trollsters

[QUOTE="Oey666"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

rawsavon

Dude. Both "sides" do this. It's a natural part of discussing something that is so profound as belief. The trick is not to let it get to you and focus your discussion on the topic, rather than feeding the insult-trolls.

I don't really see the believers doing this very much at all
-there were 2 users that did, but they are banned (or don't post anymore)

I would love to have an actual 'discussion'
-PM me when one starts...seriously

Then open your eyes. Cause believers are worse and just as bad as anyone else, I deal with the crap they try to force feed me everyday, they are all the same to me so I will treat them all the same.

[QUOTE="Trollsters"]All the MAJOR religions on this planet are based on the same god. Christianity, Jews & Muslims all worship the same god, but have diffrent Prophets and or saviors. I have chosen Christianity because i belive in the teachings of christ and love him for his sacrifice for us.Engrish_Major

Sooo......uhh...... muslims and jews are western in your book? Isnt islam the largest religion in the world?Trollsters

[QUOTE="Oey666"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

@Teenaged

Do you see what I am talking about.
-you do not see (usually) see this degree of insults or flat out patronizing from the other side on here

rawsavon

Dude. Both "sides" do this. It's a natural part of discussing something that is so profound as belief. The trick is not to let it get to you and focus your discussion on the topic, rather than feeding the insult-trolls.

I don't really see the believers doing this very much at all
-there were 2 users that did, but they are banned (or don't post anymore)

I would love to have an actual 'discussion'
-PM me when one starts...seriously

Well, I haven't been reading every post here, but I'm referring to real life there and it happens. I'm not saying it's a good thing and I believe respect must be a basis for any discussion.

On a "new" discussion; I'm not really interested in discussing something like this,arguing something that the other party cannot grasp is pointless. I'm much more interested in discussing social functions and psychology behind either sides when it comes to religion. My personal beliefs is similar to that of core satanism and becauseof what I belive,it is not relevant for me to discuss the actual belief itself, but the function behind it; what people, as individuals and in large numbers, get out of it, it's impact on society and our values.

This is why I offered insight on the matter of bashing, rather than staying on topic.

If you still want to continue discussing I don't mind a PM-discussion at all.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="Oey666"]

Dude. Both "sides" do this. It's a natural part of discussing something that is so profound as belief. The trick is not to let it get to you and focus your discussion on the topic, rather than feeding the insult-trolls.

Xorital

I don't really see the believers doing this very much at all
-there were 2 users that did, but they are banned (or don't post anymore)

I would love to have an actual 'discussion'
-PM me when one starts...seriously

Then open your eyes. Cause believers are worse and just as bad as anyone else, I deal with the crap they try to force feed me everyday, they are all the same to me so I will treat them all the same.

Are you talking about IRL or here?
-Because, tbh, I don't know or care what happens in your daily life
-I am just talking about what happens here

[QUOTE="Xorital"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

I don't really see the believers doing this very much at all
-there were 2 users that did, but they are banned (or don't post anymore)

I would love to have an actual 'discussion'
-PM me when one starts...seriously

rawsavon

Then open your eyes. Cause believers are worse and just as bad as anyone else, I deal with the crap they try to force feed me everyday, they are all the same to me so I will treat them all the same.

Are you talking about IRL or here?
-Because, tbh, I don't know or care what happens in your daily life
-I am just talking about what happens here

Wouldnt that be closed minded to what you said then, it happens in IRL which means it happens here too, I just dont look at enough religious topics to see it

Well, I haven't been reading every post here, but I'm referring to real life there and it happens.

I agree 100%...happens IRL all the time (both sides acting like babies, absurd protests, etc)
-one would hope 'we' could act a little better on here though

I'm not saying it's a good thing and I believe respect must be a basis for any discussion.

Best thing said all thread
-you can disagree and be respectful...weird concept, I know

On a "new" discussion; I'm not really interested in discussing something like this,arguing something that the other party cannot grasp is pointless. I'm much more interested in discussing social functions and psychology behind either sides when it comes to religion.

I am always interested in the psychology behind various functions, actions, and beliefs
and, even though sociology is not my strong suit, I am open to discussion on it

My personal beliefs is similar to that of core satanism and becauseof what I belive,it is not relevant for me to discuss the actual belief itself, but the function behind it; what people, as individuals and in large numbers, get out of it, it's impact on society and our values.

Very interesting indeed :o

This is why I offered insight on the matter of bashing, rather than staying on topic.

If you still want to continue discussing I don't mind a PM-discussion at all.

I don't mind either
-But I am at work, so it hard for me to keep a conversation going...I kind of post and run b/w reports

Oey666

EDIT:

Just wanted to make it clear that my responses are in red
And the things I found interesting/agreed with are in green

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="Xorital"]

Then open your eyes. Cause believers are worse and just as bad as anyone else, I deal with the crap they try to force feed me everyday, they are all the same to me so I will treat them all the same.

Xorital

Are you talking about IRL or here?
-Because, tbh, I don't know or care what happens in your daily life
-I am just talking about what happens here

Wouldnt that be closed minded to what you said then, it happens in IRL which means it happens here too, I just dont look at enough religious topics to see it

IRL =/= here

People behave a lot differently online than they do offline
Not to mention that the makeup of GS (proportionately) is different than real life

I do see Christians acting like fools IRL all the time...doing things that only push people further away from God
-but I do not see that very often here (at least not when compared to Atheists doing similar things here)

Conversely, I see very few Atheists acting like fools IRL...most likely doe to the point Teenaged brought up

Because Sheogorath demands it!

Yet another anti-religion thread... :cry:tekken220

i would imagine that the thousands of other gods dont have a book