I challenge any religious person to give me one rational reason for believing...

The last factor is a possibility, based primarily on the people who consider themselves

of a particular faith, whom i have met over the years in person. Christian, muslim, hindu,

what is considered buddhism today

(in Thailand, with all the ritualistic nonsense that was nevera part of the original teachings).

Intelligence and experience correlate, imo. All these people that have not been exposed to

other cultures or differing ideas or attempted to investigate reality on their own were

pretty much equal in the depth of their understanding of many things. A very shallow

one. It became apparent as i looked further, that this approach was taken to life in general,

they caged themselves within a cell and covered their eyes and ears, as if unwilling to

see what is and being much more content with living in thoughts.

depend3ncy

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]I have seen some inconclusive ones that show Atheists have a generally higher IQ...but NOT ones that show Believers have a LOW IQ -there is a world of difference in those 2 assertions (Like saying doctors have a high IQ and the rest of the world has a low IQ)Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]I have seen some inconclusive ones that show Atheists have a generally higher IQ...but NOT ones that show Believers have a LOW IQ -there is a world of difference in those 2 assertions (Like saying doctors have a high IQ and the rest of the world has a low IQ)Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]I have seen some inconclusive ones that show Atheists have a generally higher IQ...but NOT ones that show Believers have a LOW IQ -there is a world of difference in those 2 assertions (Like saying doctors have a high IQ and the rest of the world has a low IQ)LJS9502_basic

Yeah, I scored a 198 IQ once and I KNOW for a fact I'm not that intelligent. According to the test, I'm a genius :?... Could've fooled me.

....in whatever god you worship instead of the thousands of other gods?

Yes only one reason and I will convert. Unfortunately making absolute statements is not allowed in this forum as it comes under "forcing your beliefs onto others and offending others". But I am struggling to find how is it even a debate anymore whether being religious is rational or not? Due to the whole world being literally connected now, we know the extraordinary no. of different belief systems that have been there with mankind. In the old times this was not possible as you only knew about the more popular ones and not the ridiculous amonts that we know off now.

You can make all the philisophical arguments and intelligent design in favour of a creator or personal god all you want but how do you even make an educated guess as to which god is the real one? You could feel the presence of god as intensely as it gets but you really dont have much of a choice apart from being agnostic...

Gambler_3

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]I have seen some inconclusive ones that show Atheists have a generally higher IQ...but NOT ones that show Believers have a LOW IQ -there is a world of difference in those 2 assertions (Like saying doctors have a high IQ and the rest of the world has a low IQ)Vandalvideo

It doesn't.

To me, iq is the measure of a persons behaviour + outlook on things, handling of situations.

@rawsavon

Yes, thats what i am doing.

It could be argued that i should not have used the word iq in the first place,

but i would much rather attempt to redefine what a word should mean

than seek an alternative.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]I have seen some inconclusive ones that show Atheists have a generally higher IQ...but NOT ones that show Believers have a LOW IQ -there is a world of difference in those 2 assertions (Like saying doctors have a high IQ and the rest of the world has a low IQ)depend3ncy

It doesn't.

To me, iq is the measure of a persons behaviour + outlook on things, handling of situations.

@rawsavon

Yes, thats what i am doing.

It could be argued that i should not have used the word iq in the first place,

but i would much rather attempt to redefine what a word should mean

than seek an alternative.

wtf? Wake up from the haze, man.

Breathe some air, drink some water.

Stop seeing things that arent there.

wtf? Wake up from the haze, man.

Breathe some air, drink some water.

Stop seeing things that arent there.

depend3ncy

i worship the son and mother earth. its something i can see. its something that i cant live without. and that is fact, not a beliefe. a god isnt a god if he expects you to spend your sundays praying to him. a god isnt the all mercyful if he will send you to hell if you dont belive in a religion/prophet. theres millions of ppl out there who never heard of jesus, is it their fault? do they deserve to go to hell? no. religion is a fairytell. if not then may god strike me down with lightning rite now

Nobody there to do it.

The kingdom of god is within you.

Its people who do stupid things,

assert, misinterpret and spread

beliefs that are irrelevant

and remain emotional wrecks,

driven by intangible concepts.

Nobody there to do it.

The kingdom of god is within you.

Its people who do stupid things,

assert, misinterpret and spread

beliefs that are irrelevant

and remain emotional wrecks,

driven by intangible concepts.

depend3ncy

Pascal's Wager

None of these things have been addressed at you,

too bad you feel that way.

Well you could read up on the miracles the Christian God performed, numerous witnesses and such if you are really curious..

None of these things have been addressed at you,

too bad you feel that way.

depend3ncy

Believers of bs?

Are you sure? You may wanna check your allegiance.

Just sayin.

Believers of bs?

Are you sure? You may wanna check your allegiance.

Just sayin.

depend3ncy

Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, sins = nonsense.

These all exist within the mind and nowhere outside.

What is called sins are unskillful actions and lead to a

lot of socialfriction as wellas personal anxiety, but

there is nobody judging anyone after death.

You are just a collection of ideas that are not exclusive

to you, neither are the body's needs.

Rebel, mind, rebel! Yet you shall pass.

Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, sins = nonsense.

These all exist within the mind and nowhere outside.

What is called sins are unskillful actions and lead to a

lot of socialfriction as wellas personal anxiety, but

there is nobody judging anyone after death.

You are just a collection of ideas that are not exclusive

to you, neither are the body's needs.

Rebel, mind, rebel! Yet you shall pass.

depend3ncy

Hahahahah ^^

That went "You shall not pass", but still XD

Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, sins = nonsense.

These all exist within the mind and nowhere outside.

What is called sins are unskillful actions and lead to a

lot of socialfriction as wellas personal anxiety, but

there is nobody judging anyone after death.

You are just a collection of ideas that are not exclusive

to you, neither are the body's needs.

Rebel, mind, rebel! Yet you shall pass.

depend3ncy

Hahahahah ^^

That went "You shall not pass", but still XD

depend3ncy

I was trying to go against you. Um... Gandalf, that is; not me.

Oh, but if anything is evil, its precisely these

beliefs that are based on more beliefs, only

held authentic through succumbing to a non-existent

authority and looking to the wrong place for comfort.

Oh, but if anything is evil, its precisely these

beliefs that are based on more beliefs, only

held authentic through succumbing to a non-existent

authority and looking to the wrong place for comfort.

depend3ncy

Pascal's Wager

Duxsox56

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Pascal's wager just that if you believe then you have nothing to lose while if you don't believe you could go to hell? That's not an argument about what is true.

[QUOTE="Duxsox56"]

Pascal's Wager

SgtKevali

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Pascal's wager just that if you believe then you have nothing to lose while if you don't believe you could go to hell? That's not an argument about what is true.

Pascal's Wager of course isnt meant to be an argument that proves theism is correct.

The beliefs of science have a practical basis to them, grounded

in sampling the field within the perception of the senses.

Religion is entirely mind games.

The beliefs of science have a practical basis to them, grounded

in sampling the field within the perception of the senses.

Religion is entirely mind games.

depend3ncy

Oh, but if anything is evil, its precisely these

beliefs that are based on more beliefs, only

held authentic through succumbing to a non-existent

authority and looking to the wrong place for comfort.

depend3ncy

Yes, but the practical value of science is apparent.

All i have seen religion do is confuse people, make them

debate irrelevant issues for thousands of years/kill

over them, achieving absolutely nothing at the end of day.

Yes, but the practical value of science is apparent.

All i have seen religion do is confuse people, make them

debate irrelevant issues for thousands of years/kill

over them, achieving absolutely nothing at the end of day.

depend3ncy

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

Oh, but if anything is evil, its precisely these

beliefs that are based on more beliefs, only

held authentic through succumbing to a non-existent

authority and looking to the wrong place for comfort.

rawsavon

Direct insults are sort of against the rules of this forum.

Your current mentality is a great example to my statement.

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

Yes, but the practical value of science is apparent.

All i have seen religion do is confuse people, make them

debate irrelevant issues for thousands of years/kill

over them, achieving absolutely nothing at the end of day.

Vandalvideo

The deluded one currently is you?

Sry bro, try harder next time.

I'd also like to remind you that the only reason you are on this forum

is because of science, not intangible religious beliefs.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="depend3ncy"]

Oh, but if anything is evil, its precisely these

beliefs that are based on more beliefs, only

held authentic through succumbing to a non-existent

authority and looking to the wrong place for comfort.

depend3ncy

Direct insults are sort of against the rules of this forum.

Your current mentality is a great example to my statement.

Why is that...

You are the architect, and i am the foreman. I can only work with the plans (quotes) you provide.
I just want you to be honest.

I am not worried about being insulted.
Me thinks we are a little beyond that anyways

The deluded one currently is you? Sry bro, try harder next time.depend3ncy

@rawsavon

Firstly, because you hold concepts of 1) apologizing 2)manning up -

both are completely irrelevant from where im looking.

I know well that shoving things into somebody's face does not

get them to reconsider, apologizing is not applicable either, because

i hold clarity as my foundation, not thoughts.

Choosing either does in no way help the people that are misguided.

If a person wants to identify with wrong beliefs, its his choice, i am

not going to tell him personally that he is an idiot, i just lay out

the fact that religious beliefs don't get things done and the laws

of nature do not change, whether you are hindu or christian and

you believing in things that arent there is far more likely to make

you delusional than help you lead a better life.

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]The deluded one currently is you? Sry bro, try harder next time.Vandalvideo

Scientific laws are true before reading or hearing others convince you of

things being so. When i was 3, i would pick up a rock, let it go and it would fall

due to gravity. Before i was at least 6, i had no idea of what religion was.

Well, you are not that reverend are you? I would also have to examine

the background of that particular person and talk to him one on one, before

i was to establish any conclusions regarding whether i believe him or not.

Scientific laws are true before reading or hearing others convince you of things being so. When i was 3, i would pick up a rock, let it go and it would fall due to gravity. Before i was at least 6, i had no idea of what religion was.Well, you are not that reverend are you? I would also have to examine the background of that particular person and talk to him one on one, beforei was to establish any conclusions regarding whether i believe him or not.depend3ncy

Because it is and occurs on a constant basis, so long

as there are consciousness and the senses.

Beliefs of a heaven etc are constructs without

physical basis.

Because it is and occurs on a constant basis, so long

as there are consciousness and the senses.

Beliefs of a heaven etc are constructs without

physical basis.

depend3ncy

@rawsavon

Firstly, because you hold concepts of 1) apologizing 2)manning up -

both are completely irrelevant from where im looking.

I just do not understand why you 'hide' your feelings behind a wall of text.
You use superfluous language and pretense to try and mask or soften what you are trying to say.

Why not just be open and upfront about it?

I know well that shoving things into somebody's face does not

get them to reconsider,

I highly doubt that your motive is for people to reconsider their beliefs.
I think you are smart enough to know that insults are the least likely way to accomplish that...

apologizing is not applicable either, because

i hold clarity as my foundation, not thoughts.

I wonder where this clarity comes from.
Perhaps you have been able to reach a verifiable conclusion that no other human ever has???

Choosing either does in no way help the people that are misguided.

Like I said before, I do not think 'help' is at the top of your priority list today

If a person wants to identify with wrong beliefs, its his choice, i am

not going to tell him personally that he is an idiot,

No, you will not (obviously)
-but you will beat around the bush, tell them they have low IQ's, and let them know they are an emotional wreck

i just lay out

the fact that religious beliefs don't get things done

Who said that anything besides a man in motion gets things done

and the laws

of nature do not change

whether you are hindu or christian and

you believing in things that arent there is far more likely to make

you delusional than help you lead a better life.

So now you are calling believers delusional and saying that non-believers lead better lives
...when, in fact, there are psychological studies showing that believers lead higher quality lives (according to life/personal satisfaction scales)

depend3ncy

@vandalvideo

Only according to you. Remember, I; Mr. See God, could equally make the same claim. I see, smell, feel, hear and could taste the God which you claim to be the lights of magnetic reactions.?If I equally have the divine experiences with regularity why should I listen to you, Mr. Science, on what the event actually is?

Yes, according to me.

You can make the same claim, if you consider those things God. However,

what is so godly about lights or magnetic reactions? I do not see how calling

them a different name would make any difference. Which part of that makes

you feel better or live a happier life?

-------------------------------------------

@rawsavon

1) I just do not understand why you 'hide' your feelings behind a wall of text.
You use superfluous language and pretense to try and mask or soften what you are trying to say.

Why not just be open and upfront about it?

2) I highly doubt that your motive is for people to reconsider their beliefs.

3) I wonder where this clarity comes from.
Perhaps you have been able to reach a verifiable conclusion that no other human ever has???

1) Expressing opinions in a blunt manner is not my way of communication.

2) That is exactly what my motive is.

3) They have.

....in whatever god you worship instead of the thousands of other gods?

Yes only one reason and I will convert. Unfortunately making absolute statements is not allowed in this forum as it comes under "forcing your beliefs onto others and offending others". But I am struggling to find how is it even a debate anymore whether being religious is rational or not? Due to the whole world being literally connected now, we know the extraordinary no. of different belief systems that have been there with mankind. In the old times this was not possible as you only knew about the more popular ones and not the ridiculous amonts that we know off now.

You can make all the philisophical arguments and intelligent design in favour of a creator or personal god all you want but how do you even make an educated guess as to which god is the real one? You could feel the presence of god as intensely as it gets but you really dont have much of a choice apart from being agnostic...

Gambler_3

Well you haven't responded to me in the other thread, Im not gonna waste my time and energy to someone who just wants love to disagree for the sake of disagreements.

Second, your second quote on your sig is full of contradiction.

1- if that guy was born and raised as an atheist then he is also victim of that accidental birth so what was the point of saying what he said?

2- if he wasn't then he proves that people are not robots and can think for themselves for whatever they want to believe in and it has nothing to do with birth.

I could think for 10 minutes of something powerful to say just to lure people and make them attracted to me even if Im wrong.

I hope you know the meaning of context.

@rawsavon

1) I just do not understand why you 'hide' your feelings behind a wall of text.
You use superfluous language and pretense to try and mask or soften what you are trying to say.

Why not just be open and upfront about it?

2) I highly doubt that your motive is for people to reconsider their beliefs.

3) I wonder where this clarity comes from.
Perhaps you have been able to reach a verifiable conclusion that no other human ever has???

1) Expressing opinions in a blunt manner is not my way of communication.

2) That is exactly what my motive is.

3) They have.

depend3ncy

1. Subterfuge...not my favorite, as you can tell.
But some people enjoy posting in such a manner...more power to you I guess

Though I will say that most great authors profess that there is a certain amount of eloquence in brevity.

2. And you honestly believe that insults cloaked in excessive verbiage will accomplish that

3. I would love meet the man, see the evidence from someone who knows 100% what happens after death

@rawsavon

1) It depends.

2) They are only insults if you choose to identify

with these ideas.

Not everything has to be rational yo.

Yes, according to me. You can make the same claim, if you consider those things God. However, what is so godly about lights or magnetic reactions? I do not see how calling them a different name would make any difference. Which part of that makes you feel better or live a happier life?depend3ncy

It is.

The term 'irrational' comes from the

inability to see the relevant causes

that brought about the arising of something.

@rawsavon

1) It depends.

2) They are only insults if you choose to identify

with these ideas.

depend3ncy

[QUOTE="depend3ncy"]Yes, according to me. You can make the same claim, if you consider those things God. However, what is so godly about lights or magnetic reactions? I do not see how calling them a different name would make any difference. Which part of that makes you feel better or live a happier life?Vandalvideo

Lets go by numbers.

Billions dont see angels, your visions are hallucinogenic in nature, caused

by your intense belief and perhaps a few medical problems.

Why is it you see angels and others dont?

Everybody sees gravity at work.