I challenge any religious person to give me one rational reason for believing...

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]What do you want? This is not a formal discussion and considering you have almost 30000 posts, I have a feeling you simply dont have an answer and this "waste of time" thing is only an excuse.:|

Gambler_3

I'm not the one making excuses. Why don't you just do it? do you not want results from the discussion? I doubt it, personally, but if I'm wrong then why don't you just go ahead and do it?

What you will or will not accept as a rational argument, in specific terms. What's unclear about this?

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Given that I have already shown in that other thread that you accept on faith at least one statement, despite the fact that no objective, empirical evidence can be provided in favor of its truth, I'm really not quite sure why you're still pointing the finger at others for doing the same.

GabuEx

And I have agreed that it is us mere human limitations which force us to believe in love, I certainly cannot imagine a life where I'll be asking people "proof" of their love for me. If a religious person can admit that they only believe in god cuz they cant imagine a life without it then we have an entirely different matter on our hands and a matter which I respect alot more than those who seem to have a rational justification of it.

If you are not asking for empirical evidence, then what quantifies a reason for believing as "rational" as opposed to "irrational"?

This is precisely what Theokhoth is trying to find out, too.

Alright, obviously you didnt like my first reason, how about I gives you 3 moar? 1. God, by definition, is that which none greater can be conceived. Existence is greater than non-existence. So, a God that "exists" in the understanding alone is less great than a god that "exists" both in the understanding and in actuality. Therefore, God, by definition, must exist. The_Gun_Mage

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

I'm not the one making excuses. Why don't you just do it? do you not want results from the discussion? I doubt it, personally, but if I'm wrong then why don't you just go ahead and do it?

Theokhoth

What you will or will not accept as a rational argument, in specific terms. What's unclear about this?

How can I give you a "list" here I am not getting it...

[QUOTE="The_Gun_Mage"]Alright, obviously you didnt like my first reason, how about I gives you 3 moar? 1. God, by definition, is that which none greater can be conceived. Existence is greater than non-existence. So, a God that "exists" in the understanding alone is less great than a god that "exists" both in the understanding and in actuality. Therefore, God, by definition, must exist. Teenaged

Yes.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]I am not sure what I have to provide you with?

Gambler_3

What you will or will not accept as a rational argument, in specific terms. What's unclear about this?

How can I give you a "list" here I am not getting it...

Yes. You're the person asking for a convincing argument; what would you find convincing?

You don't offer a list. You describe what you would accept as reasonable or reject as unreasonable. Very simple to do. If you were asking for evidence, you'd have to lay out what you'd consider to be evidence; it's the same concept here.

Who told you I believe in reason?I dont believe in anything and have abandoned the idea of knowing why I exist. I am not an atheist because I know that god doesnt exist, I am an atheist because I dont know if god exists....Gambler_3

My heaven has rivers overflowing with beer and hot girls feed you whatever food you ask for.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]Who told you I believe in reason?I dont believe in anything and have abandoned the idea of knowing why I exist. I am not an atheist because I know that god doesnt exist, I am an atheist because I dont know if god exists....Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

What you will or will not accept as a rational argument, in specific terms. What's unclear about this?

Theokhoth

How can I give you a "list" here I am not getting it...

Yes. You're the person asking for a convincing argument; what would you find convincing?

You don't offer a list. You describe what you would accept as reasonable or reject as unreasonable. Very simple to do. If you were asking for evidence, you'd have to lay out what you'd consider to be evidence; it's the same concept here.

Why dont you just ask me simple questions about whatever you have in mind? Afterall you are the one who knows what way you are going to approach the answer to my question...

Because Thor carries his mighty hammer Mjolnir into battle and is a total badass.

Because Thor carries his mighty hammer Mjolnir into battle and is a total badass.

SunofVich

The hammer itself is also quite bad...

Well ofcourse it will be subjective, to think that I am coming off with an agenda and will blindly reject any reason as irrational is something I can do nothing about. I am not sure how I can give an objective framework of what is rational and what is not especially when I have no idea on what topic is the other person going to present his argument in.

Gambler_3

Yes... but at the same time, if you do not define ahead of time what you will accept as rational, that effectively makes the word a clean slate, and gives you carte blanche to declare anything and everything as irrational if you so choose, which basically means that this will amount to nothing more than clumsily throwing everything against a wall in an attempt to find out if anything sticks. A challenge without well-defined criteria for what constitutes meeting it is not a very good challenge.

1 nice and simple reason "God wills it!"

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"]Who told you I believe in reason?I dont believe in anything and have abandoned the idea of knowing why I exist. I am not an atheist because I know that god doesnt exist, I am an atheist because I dont know if god exists....Gambler_3

Vandalvideo I am not used to the sort of discussion you do. It's not that I cant comprehend things philoshopically but it's just that english is not my first language and I aways have had a bit of a hard time understanding your posts, that's why we have seldom debated before.

I am really not in the mood to pay extra attention in trying to understand your posts so I apologize but I think this is necessary that I concede or else I'll make a fool of myself debating you.

Jesus said who God is, how to get to heaven and he backed his words up by rising from the dead. _rock_

Well, my rational believing in the Olympians is i've had nothing but good luck after convertingt to them, i converted my friend, and he's had nothing but good aswell (but he worships Dionysus, so.......). Can't beat that.

Getting tired of these threads. Because the bible can always be proved right and the others can't.

Getting tired of these threads. Because the bible can always be proved right and the others can't.

dunl12496

One reason? How about if you don't you could go to hell?The_Gun_Mage

But if I believe in your God who sends me to hell and it turns out another God who also dislikes it if I don't believe them turns out to be the right one and yours is the false one, what then? "Ypu'll go to hell" isn't a rational reason.

I have a question for you. How did the Earth come to be, or rather, How did the Universe come to be.

Getting tired of these threads. Because the bible can always be proved right and the others can't.

dunl12496

Um...no? If you could prove the bible to be fact, atheism would not exist.

I have a question for you. How did the Earth come to be, or rather, How did the Universe come to be.

Snipes_2

I have a question for you. How did the Earth come to be, or rather, How did the Universe come to be.

Snipes_2

His criticism is mostly on why most believe in their specific religions. Each religion has its own (somewhat) specific view of what God is. The argument of the uncaused cause is one that may only support Deism, not Christianity or any other specific religion.

Unless you didnt read the OP.

Just butting in to clear out some possible confusion (if there is any of course).

I have a question for you. How did the Earth come to be, or rather, How did the Universe come to be.

Snipes_2

I'd answer "I don't know. But if it was God, who created God?"

You can't say "God always existed, nothing created him!" but not allow the same about the universe.

Each and everyone one of our faculties are subjective to some type of debilitating doubt. For the eyes, the ears, the hands, the nose, and the tongue the possibility of something which is deceiving the senses is always present. It need not be something of a supernatural nature either. There are plenty of medical phenomena like Synesthesia which creates the fact that our senses can be fooled and are often fooled. These sensory perceptions are but one of the many faculties we humans have. We can reason, we can sense, and we have the disposition of belief. However, how can we truly distinguish between these three types of faculties? Senses can easily be fooled. Why are we so fool hardy in our clinging to our reason? I see no reason why reason cannot itself be fooled by some factor of which I currently know not what. Given that I am unable to rule out the possibility that my reason could be fooled, I see no reason why to trust reason more than the senses. Nor do I see any reason to trust reason more than faith. Given that all faculties are subject to debilitating doubt, why should we listen to reason any more than faith or sensory perceptions? Let the scientists have their faith in reason. Let the religious people have their faith in faith. Let the empiricists have their faith in senses. You want a valid reason for belief? Maybe you should equally ask yourself for a valid reason to believe reason good sir. Vandalvideo

I actually do believe in the reasoning abilities of my brain. Sensory organs on the other hand I believe are a bit more limited but there are tools that can help overcome them. Humans can be fooled but only temporarily and certainly not on a combined level like there will be other humans around to confirm if one is being misled or if it is actually real like seeing ghosts. Richard dawkins stated in the god delusion that as a child he saw a ghost but that was qucikly cleared up as being nothing as he had the guts to actually approach the thing closely.

There is plenty of evidence that human reasoning and senses arent all that flawed, if they were than how would humans have continued to advance so much in medical science and technology? How come I dont see a plane randomly crashing down cuz the pilot was suddenly fooled by his senses??

Lastly how exactly does your post argue in favour of a belief in god?? Heck I dont see what part of life does it argue in favour off? You dont believe in reason, well then dont study anything for your exam and have faith you'll pass anyways, you'll see what happens.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

I have a question for you. How did the Earth come to be, or rather, How did the Universe come to be.

Teenaged

His criticism is mostly on why most believe in their specific religions. Each religion has its own (somewhat) specific view of what God is. The argument of the uncaused cause is one that may only support Deism, not Christianity or any other specific religion.

Unless you didnt read the OP.

Just butting in to clear out some possible confusion (if there is any of course).

....in whatever god you worship instead of the thousands of other gods?

Yes only one reason and I will convert. Unfortunately making absolute statements is not allowed in this forum as it comes under "forcing your beliefs onto others and offending others". But I am struggling to find how is it even a debate anymore whether being religious is rational or not? Due to the whole world being literally connected now, we know the extraordinary no. of different belief systems that have been there with mankind. In the old times this was not possible as you only knew about the more popular ones and not the ridiculous amonts that we know off now.

You can make all the philisophical arguments and intelligent design in favour of a creator or personal god all you want but how do you even make an educated guess as to which god is the real one? You could feel the presence of god as intensely as it gets but you really dont have much of a choice apart from being agnostic...

Gambler_3

You really love making people feel inferior for their beliefs don't you? Why would you create a thread knowing you're just going to shoot down every single possibility that you deem "irrational"? I could give you every single shred of personal experience that has led me to knowing there is a God, but why should I? It wont make a difference to you, and I'd rather not be told I'm irrational and foolish for believing what I do. In fact, I think it's more irrational to completely close yourself to the possibility and deem people's faith as irrational and foolish.

However, just to humor you, I will say this. God, Being, Pure Consciousness, Allah, or whatever you want to call it, goes beyond anything that any faith or any person or any mind could ever conceive of or understand. That is why there are so many different denominations, so many different faiths, so many different interpretations of God's nature and God's will. Many of the world's religions, if not most of them, diverge from each other, but they ALL stem from the same source. And if you are looking closely enough and studying these different faiths, you can see the areas where absolute truth still shine through.

You can believe whatever you choose about God and that's great. Find what's true for your heart, and believe in that. But don't sit there and try and make others feel like less for having faith in something they can't see or touch.

Also, now I'm pretty agnostic although I tend to feel sympathetic towards my Christian roots and here's some things that set apart the Jewish/Muslim/Christain god for others. 1. Judaism is a very old religion 2. Christianity, Islam and Judaism account for around 2/3 of religions people so it's clear who the most prevalent god is. Personally I think that if there is a God he would be fairly universally worshiped and the Jewish god is the closest we get to that. So IF I had to choose the God of Abraham, but due to the immense amount of interpretations of his will I would be forced to assume that He's not as strict as many make Him out to be otherwise He would have been more clear.Meinhard1

In case you are not aware, humans have been there for atleast a couple of hundered thousand years...

Many of the world's religions, if not most of them, diverge from each other, but they ALL stem from the same source.

MystikFollower

Due to the whole world being literally connected now, we know the extraordinary no. of different belief systems that have been there with mankind. In the old times this was not possible as you only knew about the more popular ones and not the ridiculous amonts that we know off now.

Gambler_3

I'm not exactly sure why you're asking me for evidence, as you made practically the same point as I just did in your original post. However, you're assuming the fact that there's hundreds of different religions in the world as a reason to assume that it's all BS, but when early man tried to make sense of the incomprehensible, different parts of the world interpreted and understood it differently. Culture, environment, history, ect, all contributed to the many different belief systems out there.

And here's one rational reason for believing. I'd rather follow God and be completely wrong, then to abandon God and find out it's all true.

Why is that most of these threads are started by atheists trying to either: -get someone to convince them religion x is correct (which is usually a thinly veiled attack) or -challenge religion x There are really very few threads started by believers trying to convince or be convinced (though there were a few notable users that did this who are no longer around) I have my theories....but I will leave it at thatrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Why is that most of these threads are started by atheists trying to either: -get someone to convince them religion x is correct (which is usually a thinly veiled attack) or -challenge religion x There are really very few threads started by believers trying to convince or be convinced (though there were a few notable users that did this who are no longer around) I have my theories....but I will leave it at thatMoonMarvel

Because we're all in Satan's Lair of course.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Why is that most of these threads are started by atheists trying to either: -get someone to convince them religion x is correct (which is usually a thinly veiled attack) or -challenge religion x There are really very few threads started by believers trying to convince or be convinced (though there were a few notable users that did this who are no longer around) I have my theories....but I will leave it at thatMoonMarvel

It's not philosophical or scientific. It's based on faith. It's a belief, not based on rationality. There are no logical reasons.

Your argument is invalid.

[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"]For crying out loud.... Why do you even care? Why are you demanding they justify their beliefs to you and if they cant they are being irrational? Why should they have to validate their beliefs to anybody in order to have them? Why should they try to validate their beliefs to somebody looking for reasons not to believe? Why should they have to deal with people constantly attacking their belief system for no other reason than they dont agree with it and therefore must destroy it? Who are they harming by thinking their is a god? Why and how does it bug you that they do? Will the world end if they continue to? If they continue to think this way will we all lose our rights and become a theocracy? Why even make a thread like this? Why should they bother trying to convert you? Why even bother asking with a mocking tone? BTW, I am an agnostic. I just find it annoying how so many atheists feel the need to attack religion. I dont care what they think and they have every right to believe freely without being attacked. Most dont bother anyone.rawsavon

[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]Why is that most of these threads are started by atheists trying to either: -get someone to convince them religion x is correct (which is usually a thinly veiled attack) or -challenge religion x There are really very few threads started by believers trying to convince or be convinced (though there were a few notable users that did this who are no longer around) I have my theories....but I will leave it at thatrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="MoonMarvel"]For crying out loud.... Why do you even care? Why are you demanding they justify their beliefs to you and if they cant they are being irrational? Why should they have to validate their beliefs to anybody in order to have them? Why should they try to validate their beliefs to somebody looking for reasons not to believe? Why should they have to deal with people constantly attacking their belief system for no other reason than they dont agree with it and therefore must destroy it? Who are they harming by thinking their is a god? Why and how does it bug you that they do? Will the world end if they continue to? If they continue to think this way will we all lose our rights and become a theocracy? Why even make a thread like this? Why should they bother trying to convert you? Why even bother asking with a mocking tone? BTW, I am an agnostic. I just find it annoying how so many atheists feel the need to attack religion. I dont care what they think and they have every right to believe freely without being attacked. Most dont bother anyone.MoonMarvel