If murder is illegal, why isn't abortion?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]And I told you that you are neglecting the psychological effects.

Teenaged

You posted that after my original post. THerefore it is null in this argument.

I posted it in direct response to you telling me that the physical effects of an unwanted pregnancy are the same as a wanted pregnancy.

The argument is not null at all.

Also you were the one that later sneakingly added a restriction "other than psychological effects". ;)

Again you tried to avoid to admit your mistake.

Seriously I am done here.

Bed is calling me.

You still posted it after I posted my original comment. I never made a mistake so how can I "Admit" to it?

What risk factors in childbirth? I thought modern technology remove those risk factors. WTF are you talking about?

alexside1

My mom almost died giving birth. It IS a big deal.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

She has to go through with it because she's now has another life on her hands other than her own. IT's clear other people don't find the killing of an unborn child wrong.

Snipes_2

Murder: "to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarous"

I think burning someone alive or using a vacuum or any of the other afore mentioned procedures fits this. The Mother is now responsible for ANOTHER Human life, not just her own. IF she kills it she'll compound on the emotional scars already left by the other act.

Snipes_2 wrote:

Teenaged wrote:On the inevitability of abortion in some cases. As you see this point is not affected on whether or not the fetus is considered to be alive or sentient. One can raise objections to it based on that argument or set limits in the validity of my argument but the argument itself is not swayed by it. My argument would be countered by other arguments, such as someone showing me that its not inevitable, since for instance the adoption system is 100% accessible by anyone who wishes to give their baby for adoption, or that its not inevitable since an unwanted pregnancy has too few negative effects on a mother.

Also the argument of whether or not the fetus is alive or not to me seems very arguable and no deffinite answer would come of it.

Reply: So Killing someone is better than giving them a slight chance to live? An Unwanted pregnancy has the same physical effects as a "Wanted" pregnancy.The Adoption centers are pretty Accessible to anyone.

Snipes_2 wrote:

[QUOTE="alexside1"] Is that a personal attack?Omni-Slash

I posted a site referencing to this. It stated it was VERY Rare.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="alexside1"]

What risk factors in childbirth? I thought modern technology remove those risk factors. WTF are you talking about?

Snipes_2

I posted a site referencing to this. It stated it was VERY Rare.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] Death during childbirth still happens, unfortunately, the risk is always present, just minimized by modern medical practice.T_P_O

I posted a site referencing to this. It stated it was VERY Rare.

Yeah, but it's also always present in abortion as well.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

I posted a site referencing to this. It stated it was VERY Rare.

Omni-Slash

13 Deaths was I believe Children. It is not just the "Rapist's" child. IT is her child now as well. Another thing, less than 4% of pregnancies are due to rape.

This is, at the heart, a moral and ethical dilema. What makes pro-lifers, or pro-choicers for that matter, moral convictions misguided? They seem to both have valid points to me.mattbbpl

@Snipes_2 You do realize that arguing about it isn't going to change their mind about it.alexside1

Yes. I was never actually trying to change anyones mind. I stated my opinion, then 6-7 posters started tweaking it and analyzing it.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

I posted a site referencing to this. It stated it was VERY Rare.

Snipes_2

Yeah, but it's also always present in abortion as well.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] I'd disagree with you there, you seem to lack compassion for the mother. She is the one at the end of the day, who has been raped, and in this scenario, impregnated against her will. It's going to have a terrible impact on the life of the mother, she's now got to suffer through nine months of emotional torture, stuck with a pregnancy that is a terrible reminder of the crime, and I'm sure that's something that the strong majority of women would never want to have to go through. It won't end well. Some people may find it to be "wrong", but yet, still not call it a murder.T_P_O

Murder: "to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarous"

I think burning someone alive or using a vacuum or any of the other afore mentioned procedures fits this. The Mother is now responsible for ANOTHER Human life, not just her own. IF she kills it she'll compound on the emotional scars already left by the other act.

But instead of dealing with the aftermath of an abortion. She can just give the child up for adoption and never see/hear from him/her again. She'll have to deal with the emotional effects of having killed another human being if she has an abortion.

13 Deaths was I believe Children. It is not just the "Rapist's" child. IT is her child now as well. Another thing, less than 4% of pregnancies are due to rape.

[QUOTE="Omni-Slash"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"]It can if everyone learns to mind their own business which it most certainly seems to be the problem these days...if society does not deam it to be murder it most definitely is not.....Murder is defined by the state.....Pro-Lifers have nothing to stand on except their misguided moral convictions...mattbbpl

legally (when it comes to calling abortions Murder) Pro-Lifers have nothing to stand on except for their own Misguided Moral Convictions.....Omni-Slash

Edit: Forgive my woeful HTML skills...

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] Yet, according to that, it still happens, the risk is always present, with the child's head being as large as it is when childbirth occurs, a risk of death will always be present. But like I stated, modern medical practice and technology minimize this risk, not eradicate it.T_P_O

Yeah, but it's also always present in abortion as well.

I don't know. I have never had an Abortion or given birth. MY Aunt gave birth Naturally and she was fine the next day. Abortion may be less painful because you get anesthesia, but you need to deal with bleeding and such afterwards. Even today you can get painkiller for a Natural Birth.

I'd have more sympathy for Pro_lifers if they ever gave a shred of thought to the woman giving birth....no-one with half a brain would argue for abortion as a form of birth control...and those that do are morally bankrupt...but those that argue for an accross the board ban are just as morally bankrupt as they believe that life starting out is someone more valuable than the woman giving birth....Omni-Slash

Don't hold your breath. :( Women aren't valued as much as fetuses by pro-lifers, but they never want to address that. I agree with you though.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Murder: "to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarous"

I think burning someone alive or using a vacuum or any of the other afore mentioned procedures fits this. The Mother is now responsible for ANOTHER Human life, not just her own. IF she kills it she'll compound on the emotional scars already left by the other act.

Snipes_2

But instead of dealing with the aftermath of an abortion. She can just give the child up for adoption and never see/hear from him/her again. She'll have to deal with the emotional effects of having killed another human being if she has an abortion.

I don't know about you guys, but this issue never seems to be solved. Anyways, I'm going to bed. Cheers.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] Well, the legal definition of murder in my nation is different to that: "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, under the Queen's peace, with malice aforethought". It is also in statute that abortion is not killing a human being until the 24th week. How do you explain this conflict? Well, if she gets an abortion, she has time to move on and seek help, without the constant reminder of the act. This seems a better option to me. Also, why is she responsible for something she didn't consent to? That's highly unfair.T_P_O

But instead of dealing with the aftermath of an abortion. She can just give the child up for adoption and never see/hear from him/her again. She'll have to deal with the emotional effects of having killed another human being if she has an abortion.

She may have a scar from the abortion too though. She doesn't need to see the child after birth. They can take it away and she'll never have to see it again.

[QUOTE="Omni-Slash"] I'd have more sympathy for Pro_lifers if they ever gave a shred of thought to the woman giving birth....no-one with half a brain would argue for abortion as a form of birth control...and those that do are morally bankrupt...but those that argue for an accross the board ban are just as morally bankrupt as they believe that life starting out is someone more valuable than the woman giving birth....binpink

Don't hold your breath. :( Women aren't valued as much as fetuses by pro-lifers, but they never want to address that. I agree with you though.

[QUOTE="Omni-Slash"] I'd have more sympathy for Pro_lifers if they ever gave a shred of thought to the woman giving birth....no-one with half a brain would argue for abortion as a form of birth control...and those that do are morally bankrupt...but those that argue for an accross the board ban are just as morally bankrupt as they believe that life starting out is someone more valuable than the woman giving birth....binpink

Don't hold your breath. :( Women aren't valued as much as fetuses by pro-lifers, but they never want to address that. I agree with you though.

Lol at Ignorant generalization.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]This is, at the heart, a moral and ethical dilema. What makes pro-lifers, or pro-choicers for that matter, moral convictions misguided? They seem to both have valid points to me.Omni-Slash

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]This is, at the heart, a moral and ethical dilema. What makes pro-lifers, or pro-choicers for that matter, moral convictions misguided? They seem to both have valid points to me.Omni-Slash

Well if it means anything, I am one of those Pro-lifers who does think about the woman giving birth so they are out there although that may be rare though.

[QUOTE="Omni-Slash"] I'd have more sympathy for Pro_lifers if they ever gave a shred of thought to the woman giving birth....no-one with half a brain would argue for abortion as a form of birth control...and those that do are morally bankrupt...but those that argue for an accross the board ban are just as morally bankrupt as they believe that life starting out is someone more valuable than the woman giving birth....binpink

Don't hold your breath. :( Women aren't valued as much as fetuses by pro-lifers, but they never want to address that. I agree with you though.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Yeah, but it's also always present in abortion as well.

Snipes_2

I don't know. I have never had an Abortion or given birth. MY Aunt gave birth Naturally and she was fine the next day. Abortion may be less painful because you get anesthesia, but you need to deal with bleeding and such afterwards. Even today you can get painkiller for a Natural Birth.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

But instead of dealing with the aftermath of an abortion. She can just give the child up for adoption and never see/hear from him/her again. She'll have to deal with the emotional effects of having killed another human being if she has an abortion.

Snipes_2

She may have a scar from the abortion too though. She doesn't need to see the child after birth. They can take it away and she'll never have to see it again.

Lol at Ignorant generalization.

I don't know. I have never had an Abortion or given birth. MY Aunt gave birth Naturally and she was fine the next day. Abortion may be less painful because you get anesthesia, but you need to deal with bleeding and such afterwards. Even today you can get painkiller for a Natural Birth.

Snipes_2

I'm not interested in posting a direct reply to Snipes_2 or arguing about it, but I would like to comment on what was said.

When my mom nearly died in childbirth, a painkiller did not save her life. Nor did a painkiller help put part of her back together in the following days. Some women handle childbirth well but it is in no way a completely safe process. Hence why it's usually done in a hospital under medical supervision. I don't think anyone should be forced to give birth based on the fact that it's "safer" than an abortion. Not a convincing pro-life argument for me.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Lol at Ignorant generalization.

Omni-Slash

Some people refuse to address the issue, as you might've seen.

The choice is between women's personal freedom/reproductive rights and a fetus. Pro-lifers choose the fetus. How that's a one sided generalization, I'll never know.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] She'll have to deal with the aftermath of a painful and long childbirth, or physical scarring (yet again, a reminder) from invasive sugery to deliver the child. There's emotional effects of carrying around an unwanted pregnancy, and I'd rather that help and support can be given as early as possible without a hugely obvious reminder in the room causing distress.T_P_O

She may have a scar from the abortion too though. She doesn't need to see the child after birth. They can take it away and she'll never have to see it again.

After those Nine Months though she wont ever have to see it again. She'll have to deal with the fact that she killed an unborn child if she has an Abortion.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Lol at Ignorant generalization.

Omni-Slash

And He/She has made my argument as well.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

I don't know. I have never had an Abortion or given birth. MY Aunt gave birth Naturally and she was fine the next day. Abortion may be less painful because you get anesthesia, but you need to deal with bleeding and such afterwards. Even today you can get painkiller for a Natural Birth.

binpink

I'm not interested in posting a direct reply to Snipes_2 or arguing about it, but I would like to comment on what was said.

When my mom nearly died in childbirth, a painkiller did not save her life. Nor did a painkiller help put part of her back together in the following days. Some women handle childbirth well but it is in no way a completely safe process. Hence why it's usually done in a hospital under medical supervision. I don't think anyone should be forced to give birth based on the fact that it's "safer" than an abortion. Not a convincing pro-life argument for me.

Again, She could have chosen to have a C-Section. YOur Abortion argument isn't exactly convincing either. At Least, in my opinion. How is killing an unborn child and possibly yourself safer than having a C-Section?

[QUOTE="Omni-Slash"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Lol at Ignorant generalization.

Some people refuse to address the issue, as you might've seen.

The choice is between women's personal freedom/reproductive rights and a fetus. Pro-lifers choose the fetus. How that's a one sided generalization, I'll never know.

[QUOTE="Omni-Slash"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Lol at Ignorant generalization.

binpink

Some people refuse to address the issue, as you might've seen.

The choice is between women's personal freedom/reproductive rights and a fetus. Pro-lifers choose the fetus. How that's a one sided generalization, I'll never know.

Pro-Lifers choose the Fetus and you Choose the Woman. The way you put it someone's going to die either way.

[QUOTE="T_P_O"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

She may have a scar from the abortion too though. She doesn't need to see the child after birth. They can take it away and she'll never have to see it again.

Snipes_2

After those Nine Months though she wont ever have to see it again. She'll have to deal with the fact that she killed an unborn child if she has an Abortion.

Again, She could have chosen to have a C-Section. YOur Abortion argument isn't exactly convincing either. At Least, in my opinion. How is killing an unborn child and possibly yourself safer than having a C-Section?

Congratulations on your 1000 post :) (it's your next one)

I think the issue is more complex than that. Few things are ever that conventiently easy.mattbbpl

AH NO WAY! Cool, thanks for pointing that out!

And I agree it's really complex. It just seems like pro-lifers focus on the fetus, pro-choicers on the woman. Makes it hard to come to much agreement when we aren't trying to protect the same thing.

~1000th post!~

Again, She could have chosen to have a C-Section. YOur Abortion argument isn't exactly convincing either. At Least, in my opinion. How is killing an unborn child and possibly yourself safer than having a C-Section?

Ooo... Sorry to hear that. My son was born rather uneventfully, fortunately. Are you planning on having another child? I heard once you have a C-section, it's nearly certain that future deliveries will be via C-section as well, although it's just precaution since the walls have already been weakened.mattbbpl

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] Don't know about where you live, but nearly all abortions here are induced by a drug, no real obvious physical scarring. She'll see the child during the nine months of her pregnancy, all the time, everyday, every second. They can't take it away then and relieve her of the obvious reminder (using this word an awful lot for some reason) of the act without an abortion.

BumFluff122

After those Nine Months though she wont ever have to see it again. She'll have to deal with the fact that she killed an unborn child if she has an Abortion.

Did you read the Psychological effects of an Abortion, not to mention the Moral conflicts?

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"] Congratulations on your 1000 post :) (it's your next one)

I think the issue is more complex than that. Few things are ever that conventiently easy.binpink

AH NO WAY! Cool, thanks for pointing that out!

And I agree it's really complex. It just seems like pro-lifers focus on the fetus, pro-choicers on the woman. Makes it hard to come to much agreement when we aren't trying to protect the same thing.

~1000th post!~

I have to agree with you there. IT's a lose-lose no matter which side you represent. Congratulations on your 1000th post by the way.

Murder is nothing but a concept defined by society, and clearly, our society does not define abortion as murder.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"] So why does the child have to do die?

Snipes_2

Because it cannot exist outside of the womans womb and the woman should in no case what so ever be forced to suffer mental torture, physical pain, and 9 months of carrying a child she did not want and was essentially forced into. It is unfortunate that an abortion happens in this case but can you honest to God tell me it is wrong for the mother to not want to go through with the child of a man who took her against her will? Would you want to?

Why can't it exist outside the Mothers WOmb if it's a perfectly healthy child? It is wrong to have an Abortion, you are KILLING another human being. I would not want to have a Child under those Circumstances but I would. I can Honestly say I would have trouble with it, but I would not Abort the Child.

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

After those Nine Months though she wont ever have to see it again. She'll have to deal with the fact that she killed an unborn child if she has an Abortion.

Snipes_2

Did you read the Psychological effects of an Abortion, not to mention the Moral conflicts?

A woman forced to carry the child of the man who raped her probably has a much much higher chance of dying due to suicide. The mental stress from being raped is enough but add on that a bunch of random people decided for her that she has to carry the baby even if she doesn't want to and I think for a decent percentage that would be the straw that broke the camels back.