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[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]So you think she deserves that for not believing?GabuEx
What does anyone truly deserve?
Or are you just trying to save her from some crazy guy (god) who you think is going to do that to her if she doesn't? Kind of like a dictator thing.KeitekeTokage
I'm trying to save her from a world of pain and torment
If she dies unsaved, then what?
That won't happen, and I won't consider it
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="needled24-7"]so do you think the only way to heaven is through christ?needled24-7
Yep
even a genuinly good person that is atheist will still go to hell or what?needled24-7
There's only one way, and it's been made pretty clear throughout the bible
you seem like a pretty good guyneedled24-7
Thanks haha :P
so i'd imagine you would date a nice girl as wellneedled24-7
She's amazing
and if she is a wholesome individual, do you think she would go to heaven or hell if she died tomorrow, even though she has not been saved?needled24-7
Honestly, she'd go to hell, but I've been talking to her and so she's been havin a bigger chance. I'm beggin on my knees for God to give me time
ah okay.i would say good luck on getting her converted, but i'm not a christian, i won't wish bad luck though.
i don't like to consider myself an atheist though, i just don't like the word "atheist", sounds evil to me :P
Thanks man :) and it's all cool haha
[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"]I won't worry to much. I'm sure your girlfriend will have a fun time in hell with us.xxKai
I could say many mean, mean things to you about that statement, but I won't. I'll just try to get you modded and banned.
sorry if it was a little heartless to say that, but if you're right you will have to deal with it with her or another loved one. Don't be mad at me for talking about a fact of your religion.It wasn't anything about religion, it was about my girl and I get possessive.
Oh I didn't mean to imply anything Sexual if that's where this is heading... Purely shots and Vodka Slip'N'slide fun..[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"]I won't worry to much. I'm sure your girlfriend will have a fun time in hell with us.OmniGo0se
I could say many mean, mean things to you about that statement, but I won't. I'll just try to get you modded and banned.
sorry if it was a little heartless to say that, but if you're right you will have to deal with it with her or another loved one. Don't be mad at me for talking about a fact of your religion.
EDIT: I'm going to be in hell to if your right so be happy... You get to be right... you will have won this arguement, but a loved one will be lost from you foreve. Is that stil a win?
Lawl at you assuming all I want to be is right. No, I want you to be saved too after all
[QUOTE="xxKai"][QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] sorry if it was a little heartless to say that, but if you're right you will have to deal with it with her or another loved one. Don't be mad at me for talking about a fact of your religion. OmniGo0se
It wasn't anything about religion, it was about my girl and I get possessive.
Oh I didn't mean to imply anything Sexual if that's where this is heading... Purely shots and Vodka Slip'N'slide fun..I wasn't either
Wow...you didn't answer either question. "What does anyone truly deserve?" What? What are you talking about? Do you think she deserves it or not? Yes or no. Also, so you're saying you're trying to save her from a torture that you don't think she deserves then for what she's done right?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="xxKai"]
I'm trying to save her from a world of pain and torment
xxKai
I knew you'd say that, so yeah, I think she deserves it, and nothing's really stopping her from getting what she deserves if she just accepts Christ, which she will so no problem there. And to your second question, when I said world of pain I meant life here on Earth, she's been through a lot
Alright. I disagree with your morality, and I think its pretty sick that you'd think a loved one deserves such a thing for simply not coming to the same conclusion you did. It's unfortunate that you've come to think this way about others and about yourself. Personally, I couldn't ever be friends with someone like yourself who's in support of my torture because I don't think the same way they do and I don't think you're very far off from someone who actually commits murder. The only difference here is that you're not pulling the trigger of the gun, but you're in full support of the one who is. It seems she really loves you if this isn't a factor for her. That's essentially what it boils down to. The only consolation is that it ultimately connects back to a fiction, but still, seeing people grasped in such a manner is still sad to me. Thanks for answering honestly so we don't have to drag this out and I now know where you stand.He can Molest children then become a born again Christian.OmniGo0seSure, he's realized what he's done wrong. If not, he'll go to hell, sounds about right to me. This is a case where forgiveness kicks in.
Most Mexican Gangs are heavily Religious and there really isn't anything that I've seen in the bible that says they should do what they do (Atleast the Drug dealers... you can argue the no killing even though god calls for killing MANY times in the OT)OmniGo0se
Lolwut
So there will be weeping, but they won't really care about the injustice that was done? Will they refuse to accept their reward that was given by this unjust system? Or is it kind of a thing where they won't really speak up because then they'll get tossed too? This kind of reminds me of a hostage who's forced to live with their child's murderer, and all they can do is cry about it at night, because if they say anything he will kill them too. Except in this instance, the hostage actually worshipes the murderer, apparently by their own will. Pretty twisted.[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
As Revelations says somewhere, there will be a weeping, from what I've heard it'll be a weeping for the people that haven't made it through the beautiful second coming of Christ. But jeez I really need to read the Bible and freshen up on my scripture
xxKai
Injustice? What injustice? If you're talking about the rapture, that whole thing was made around Justice, hence it being called Judgement day. This makes the rest of your paragraph irrelephant, kind of
Btw.
[QUOTE="xxKai"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Wow...you didn't answer either question. "What does anyone truly deserve?" What? What are you talking about? Do you think she deserves it or not? Yes or no. Also, so you're saying you're trying to save her from a torture that you don't think she deserves then for what she's done right?KeitekeTokage
I knew you'd say that, so yeah, I think she deserves it, and nothing's really stopping her from getting what she deserves if she just accepts Christ, which she will so no problem there. And to your second question, when I said world of pain I meant life here on Earth, she's been through a lot
Alright. I disagree with your morality, and I think its pretty sick that you'd think a loved one deserves such a thing for simply not coming to the same conclusion you did. It's unfortunate that you've come to think this way about others and about yourself. Personally, I couldn't ever be friends with someone like yourself who's in support of my torture because I don't think the same way they do and I don't think you're very far off from someone who actually commits murder. The only difference here is that you're not pulling the trigger of the gun, but you're in full support of the one who is. It seems she really loves you if this isn't a factor for her. That's essentially what it boils down to. The only consolation is that it ultimately connects back to a fiction, but still, seeing people grasped in such a manner is still sad to me. Thanks for answering honestly so we don't have to drag this out and I now know where you stand.*sigh
I think this is where most lines end, thanks for your honest opinions too man I'll be thinking about this
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] So there will be weeping, but they won't really care about the injustice that was done? Will they refuse to accept their reward that was given by this unjust system? Or is it kind of a thing where they won't really speak up because then they'll get tossed too? This kind of reminds me of a hostage who's forced to live with their child's murderer, and all they can do is cry about it at night, because if they say anything he will kill them too. Except in this instance, the hostage actually worshipes the murderer, apparently by their own will. Pretty twisted.
KeitekeTokage
Injustice? What injustice? If you're talking about the rapture, that whole thing was made around Justice, hence it being called Judgement day. This makes the rest of your paragraph irrelephant, kind of
Btw.
I was basically saying it was called judgement day dude that doesn't mean that's the only thing I believed why it was based on a Just system
That won't happen, and I won't consider it
xxKai
Eventually, there will be someone you care about who dies without getting saved. It's an eventuality that one is going to face one way or another, so it's really something that should be confronted now rather than later.
Do you truly believe that what is clearly a massive source of stress is something that God would thrust upon you and hold over your head for your whole life, or is it just what you have been told, and what you're afraid of?
Alright. I disagree with your morality, and I think its pretty sick that you'd think a loved one deserves such a thing for simply not coming to the same conclusion you did. It's unfortunate that you've come to think this way about others and about yourself. Personally, I couldn't ever be friends with someone like yourself who's in support of my torture because I don't think the same way they do and I don't think you're very far off from someone who actually commits murder. The only difference here is that you're not pulling the trigger of the gun, but you're in full support of the one who is. It seems she really loves you if this isn't a factor for her. That's essentially what it boils down to. The only consolation is that it ultimately connects back to a fiction, but still, seeing people grasped in such a manner is still sad to me. Thanks for answering honestly so we don't have to drag this out and I now know where you stand.[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="xxKai"]
I knew you'd say that, so yeah, I think she deserves it, and nothing's really stopping her from getting what she deserves if she just accepts Christ, which she will so no problem there. And to your second question, when I said world of pain I meant life here on Earth, she's been through a lot
xxKai
*sigh
I think this is where most lines end, thanks for your honest opinions too man I'll be thinking about this
I like to be honest with others when they are, and even though I said up there that I wouldn't and could never be friends with someone like you, which I really do mean, I really do respect you being upfront, and honest about it. Asking that question to a Christian usually takes 3 pages to get an answer.[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
Injustice? What injustice? If you're talking about the rapture, that whole thing was made around Justice, hence it being called Judgement day. This makes the rest of your paragraph irrelephant, kind of
xxKai
Btw.
I was basically saying it was called judgement day dude that doesn't mean that's the only thing I believed why it was based on a Just system
Try looking up EDIT:*symmetry from pre-cal. That will help show where you went wrong. You said it was made around justice, hence (which is why) its called Judgement day. They are interchangeable.[QUOTE="xxKai"]
That won't happen, and I won't consider it
GabuEx
Eventually, there will be someone you care about who dies without getting saved. It's an eventuality that one is going to face one way or another, so it's really something that should be confronted now rather than later.
Do you truly believe that what is clearly a massive source of stress is something that God would thrust upon you and hold over your head for your whole life, or is it just what you have been told, and what you're afraid of?
Tbh there are a lot of people that have died without getting saved, I can only work so hard. Also, I believe in eternal life, this life I have on Earth is a pretty short life so yeah and sure it can be massive stress, but there are many joys that come through people being saved, I watch people get baptized in my church nearly every week
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
Btw.
KeitekeTokage
I was basically saying it was called judgement day dude that doesn't mean that's the only thing I believed why it was based on a Just system
Try looking up EDIT:*symmetry from pre-cal. That will help show where you went wrong. You said it was made around justice, hence (which is why) its called Judgement day. They are interchangeable.Oh whoops, mistake on my part. Well you know what I meant now
[QUOTE="xxKai"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Alright. I disagree with your morality, and I think its pretty sick that you'd think a loved one deserves such a thing for simply not coming to the same conclusion you did. It's unfortunate that you've come to think this way about others and about yourself. Personally, I couldn't ever be friends with someone like yourself who's in support of my torture because I don't think the same way they do and I don't think you're very far off from someone who actually commits murder. The only difference here is that you're not pulling the trigger of the gun, but you're in full support of the one who is. It seems she really loves you if this isn't a factor for her. That's essentially what it boils down to. The only consolation is that it ultimately connects back to a fiction, but still, seeing people grasped in such a manner is still sad to me. Thanks for answering honestly so we don't have to drag this out and I now know where you stand.KeitekeTokage
*sigh
I think this is where most lines end, thanks for your honest opinions too man I'll be thinking about this
I like to be honest with others when they are, and even though I said up there that I wouldn't and could never be friends with someone like you, which I really do mean, I really do respect you being upfront, and honest about it. Asking that question to a Christian usually takes 3 pages to get an answer.I respect you too dude, without people like you to stir conversation, we'd be blindlessly pushing ourselves forward
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] you quoted nothing of mine and that replies to nothing that I said. It's doesn't matter if it's a connection or Religion. There will be Child Molesters and Gang Members that have that connection with god and go to heaven while there is going to be good people that never grew up believing in this connection that will end up in hell? that's horrible I refuse to believe in such a flawed fairytale. OmniGo0se
I don't think someone who molests children is one who believes in Jesus in the way the original language actually implied.
He can Molest children then become a born again Christian. Most Mexican Gangs are heavily Religious and there really isn't anything that I've seen in the bible that says they should do what they do (Atleast the Drug dealers... you can argue the no killing even though god calls for killing MANY times in the OT)Becoming a born-again Christian implies that one renounces the way in which one previously lived, sincerely repents, and pledges never again to live like that. It's not as though one just goes "OK Jesus, I totally accept you" and then it's a get-out-of-jail free card.
All that aside, though, Jesus' original, actual teachings held that the Kingdom of God was a place that one may find on Earth. Believing in Jesus was an emotional belief, the sort of belief one has that one's spiritual leader would not lead one astray, not some sort of factual belief. And it wasn't about salvation in the afterlife, either; the number of times Jesus instructs his followers to accept him as their lord and savior is very small... as in, zero.
Try looking up EDIT:*symmetry from pre-cal. That will help show where you went wrong. You said it was made around justice, hence (which is why) its called Judgement day. They are interchangeable.[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
I was basically saying it was called judgement day dude that doesn't mean that's the only thing I believed why it was based on a Just system
xxKai
Oh whoops, mistake on my part. Well you know what I meant now
He can Molest children then become a born again Christian. Most Mexican Gangs are heavily Religious and there really isn't anything that I've seen in the bible that says they should do what they do (Atleast the Drug dealers... you can argue the no killing even though god calls for killing MANY times in the OT)[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]
I don't think someone who molests children is one who believes in Jesus in the way the original language actually implied.
GabuEx
Becoming a born-again Christian implies that one renounces the way in which one previously lived, sincerely repents, and pledges never again to live like that. It's not as though one just goes "OK Jesus, I totally accept you" and then it's a get-out-of-jail free card.
All that aside, though, Jesus' original, actual teachings held that the Kingdom of God was a place that one may find on Earth. Believing in Jesus was an emotional belief, the sort of belief one has that one's spiritual leader would not lead one astray, not some sort of factual belief. And it wasn't about salvation in the afterlife, either; the number of times Jesus instructs his followers to accept him as their lord and savior is very small... as in, zero.
We are already all sinners according to the bible and all it says you need to do is accept jesus as your lord and worship him. You can still accept jesus as your lord and worship him while molesting children.[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
That won't happen, and I won't consider it
xxKai
Eventually, there will be someone you care about who dies without getting saved. It's an eventuality that one is going to face one way or another, so it's really something that should be confronted now rather than later.
Do you truly believe that what is clearly a massive source of stress is something that God would thrust upon you and hold over your head for your whole life, or is it just what you have been told, and what you're afraid of?
Tbh there are a lot of people that have died without getting saved, I can only work so hard. Also, I believe in eternal life, this life I have on Earth is a pretty short life so yeah and sure it can be massive stress, but there are many joys that come through people being saved, I watch people get baptized in my church nearly every week
And those joys would outweigh and make it not matter if a loved one went to hell for all eternity? You would be perfectly happy in heaven if that occurred?
I like to be honest with others when they are, and even though I said up there that I wouldn't and could never be friends with someone like you, which I really do mean, I really do respect you being upfront, and honest about it. Asking that question to a Christian usually takes 3 pages to get an answer.[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
*sigh
I think this is where most lines end, thanks for your honest opinions too man I'll be thinking about this
xxKai
I respect you too dude, without people like you to stir conversation, we'd be blindlessly pushing ourselves forward
Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?EDIT: Let me make it a bit more accurate; after being set free the murderer is personally set up by the judge with a luxirious mansion, all the money he could imagine, the best cars on the market etc, while the bubble gum theif is slowly castrated with machettes by the prison guards day and night, trying to kill him as slowly as possible.
There, is that a just system to you? Should we implement such a system in our justice system? Why not? What do you think would happen to a judge who did that?
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] He can Molest children then become a born again Christian. Most Mexican Gangs are heavily Religious and there really isn't anything that I've seen in the bible that says they should do what they do (Atleast the Drug dealers... you can argue the no killing even though god calls for killing MANY times in the OT)OmniGo0se
Becoming a born-again Christian implies that one renounces the way in which one previously lived, sincerely repents, and pledges never again to live like that. It's not as though one just goes "OK Jesus, I totally accept you" and then it's a get-out-of-jail free card.
All that aside, though, Jesus' original, actual teachings held that the Kingdom of God was a place that one may find on Earth. Believing in Jesus was an emotional belief, the sort of belief one has that one's spiritual leader would not lead one astray, not some sort of factual belief. And it wasn't about salvation in the afterlife, either; the number of times Jesus instructs his followers to accept him as their lord and savior is very small... as in, zero.
We are already all sinners according to the bible and all it says you need to do is accept jesus as your lord and worship him. You can still accept jesus as your lord and worship him while molesting children.I have a feeling that person isn't accepting the right way... Just an odd feeling
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
Eventually, there will be someone you care about who dies without getting saved. It's an eventuality that one is going to face one way or another, so it's really something that should be confronted now rather than later.
Do you truly believe that what is clearly a massive source of stress is something that God would thrust upon you and hold over your head for your whole life, or is it just what you have been told, and what you're afraid of?
GabuEx
Tbh there are a lot of people that have died without getting saved, I can only work so hard. Also, I believe in eternal life, this life I have on Earth is a pretty short life so yeah and sure it can be massive stress, but there are many joys that come through people being saved, I watch people get baptized in my church nearly every week
And those joys would outweigh and make it not matter if a loved one went to hell for all eternity? You would be perfectly happy in heaven if that occurred?
Haha funny how it seems as if all things are aimed at me, how happy I am etc... I really don't care how happy I get, how happy things I do and how it makes me happier. Also, no I wouldn't be perfectly happy in heaven if that occured
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] He can Molest children then become a born again Christian. Most Mexican Gangs are heavily Religious and there really isn't anything that I've seen in the bible that says they should do what they do (Atleast the Drug dealers... you can argue the no killing even though god calls for killing MANY times in the OT)OmniGo0se
Becoming a born-again Christian implies that one renounces the way in which one previously lived, sincerely repents, and pledges never again to live like that. It's not as though one just goes "OK Jesus, I totally accept you" and then it's a get-out-of-jail free card.
All that aside, though, Jesus' original, actual teachings held that the Kingdom of God was a place that one may find on Earth. Believing in Jesus was an emotional belief, the sort of belief one has that one's spiritual leader would not lead one astray, not some sort of factual belief. And it wasn't about salvation in the afterlife, either; the number of times Jesus instructs his followers to accept him as their lord and savior is very small... as in, zero.
We are already all sinners according to the bible and all it says you need to do is accept jesus as your lord and worship him. You can still accept jesus as your lord and worship him while molesting children.Show me where it says that.
Or, even better, show me where Jesus says that.
[QUOTE="xxKai"][QUOTE="GabuEx"] I like to be honest with others when they are, and even though I said up there that I wouldn't and could never be friends with someone like you, which I really do mean, I really do respect you being upfront, and honest about it. Asking that question to a Christian usually takes 3 pages to get an answer.KeitekeTokage
I respect you too dude, without people like you to stir conversation, we'd be blindlessly pushing ourselves forward
Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?A sin is a sin no matter how small or big... I'm not sure if that answers the question, does it?
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
Tbh there are a lot of people that have died without getting saved, I can only work so hard. Also, I believe in eternal life, this life I have on Earth is a pretty short life so yeah and sure it can be massive stress, but there are many joys that come through people being saved, I watch people get baptized in my church nearly every week
xxKai
And those joys would outweigh and make it not matter if a loved one went to hell for all eternity? You would be perfectly happy in heaven if that occurred?
Haha funny how it seems as if all things are aimed at me, how happy I am etc... I really don't care how happy I get, how happy things I do and how it makes me happier. Also, no I wouldn't be perfectly happy in heaven if that occured
Then what exactly would make it heaven, if you lived with the eternal knowledge that someone you loved is being tortured forever?
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"] I like to be honest with others when they are, and even though I said up there that I wouldn't and could never be friends with someone like you, which I really do mean, I really do respect you being upfront, and honest about it. Asking that question to a Christian usually takes 3 pages to get an answer.KeitekeTokage
I respect you too dude, without people like you to stir conversation, we'd be blindlessly pushing ourselves forward
Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?EDIT: Let me make it a bit more accurate; after being set free the murderer is personally set up by the judge with a luxirious mansion, all the money he could imagine, the best cars on the market etc, while the bubble gum theif is slowly castrated with machettes by the prison guards day and night, trying to kill him as slowly as possible.
There, is that a just system to you?
Lemme think... Um... no? it doesn't seem right why the person gets more than the other
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
And those joys would outweigh and make it not matter if a loved one went to hell for all eternity? You would be perfectly happy in heaven if that occurred?
GabuEx
Haha funny how it seems as if all things are aimed at me, how happy I am etc... I really don't care how happy I get, how happy things I do and how it makes me happier. Also, no I wouldn't be perfectly happy in heaven if that occured
Then what exactly would make it heaven, if you lived with the eternal knowledge that someone you loved is being tortured forever?
That's something I can't answer
Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
I respect you too dude, without people like you to stir conversation, we'd be blindlessly pushing ourselves forward
xxKai
A sin is a sin no matter how small or big... I'm not sure if that answers the question, does it?
So you're saying bubble gum stealing is equal to murder. Not only that but it would be ok if the murderer is forgiven for his crime as long as he asks the judge to be forgiven, right? And its ok that the bubble gum thief be tortured, since he didn't ask right? The judge is the boss after all isn't he?We are already all sinners according to the bible and all it says you need to do is accept jesus as your lord and worship him. You can still accept jesus as your lord and worship him while molesting children.[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]
Becoming a born-again Christian implies that one renounces the way in which one previously lived, sincerely repents, and pledges never again to live like that. It's not as though one just goes "OK Jesus, I totally accept you" and then it's a get-out-of-jail free card.
All that aside, though, Jesus' original, actual teachings held that the Kingdom of God was a place that one may find on Earth. Believing in Jesus was an emotional belief, the sort of belief one has that one's spiritual leader would not lead one astray, not some sort of factual belief. And it wasn't about salvation in the afterlife, either; the number of times Jesus instructs his followers to accept him as their lord and savior is very small... as in, zero.
GabuEx
Show me where it says that.
Or, even better, show me where Jesus says that.
I don't know where or if it says that all I know is that according to jesus we are all sinners and the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus and he will take away our sins. Which means you can do horrible things for what ever reason (maybe you hear voices and you think they are god that tell you do things for him like kill... It makes sense cause he wanted a lot of people killed in the OT), but as long as you accept jesus as the only way to heaven you can still go...Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
I respect you too dude, without people like you to stir conversation, we'd be blindlessly pushing ourselves forward
xxKai
EDIT: Let me make it a bit more accurate; after being set free the murderer is personally set up by the judge with a luxirious mansion, all the money he could imagine, the best cars on the market etc, while the bubble gum theif is slowly castrated with machettes by the prison guards day and night, trying to kill him as slowly as possible.
There, is that a just system to you?
Lemme think... Um... no? it doesn't seem right why the person gets more than the other
This is exactly the system for which you are supporting in regards to God. Why is it that you don't find this to be right in this situation? He asked for forgiveness right? Whats wrong with the bubble gum thief being tortured if he didn't ask for forgiveness though? Also, whats wrong with the murderer getting a reward for obeying? And lastly, is there anything wrong with sacrificing the judges son for those two men? Does the idea that his death translates even make sense?[QUOTE="xxKai"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?KeitekeTokage
A sin is a sin no matter how small or big... I'm not sure if that answers the question, does it?
So you're saying bubble gum stealing is equal to murder. Not only that but it would be ok if the murderer is forgiven for his crime as long as he asks the judge to be forgiven, right? And its ok that the bubble gum thief be tortured, since he didn't ask right? The judge is the boss after all isn't he?Well if we're still talking about religion, I guess? But in this human society, of course not, because the bubble dude only stole a small bubble gum and the murderer murdered. I'm trying to get this into Christianity form.... Jesus, God's only Son, sacrificed His life for us so that all we have to do is repent and ask him to be your saviour. He's done everything for us, felt our pain, gone through temptations. This gives us a way to God, because the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, a sin is a sin and we're going to hell for it, the standards were very high before Jesus died, I forget where I heard this but stuff like looking at a woman is considered adultery and etc. So let's see... The murderer doesn't just ask, he repents, he thinks of what he's done and has a new relationship with God, being cleansed and not being a murderer anymore, same goes for the bubble guy, no sin is acceptable and he should know that, there are no exceptions so why try to get away with it... Someone with valid scripture should help me out here lulz :P
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
Haha funny how it seems as if all things are aimed at me, how happy I am etc... I really don't care how happy I get, how happy things I do and how it makes me happier. Also, no I wouldn't be perfectly happy in heaven if that occured
xxKai
Then what exactly would make it heaven, if you lived with the eternal knowledge that someone you loved is being tortured forever?
That's something I can't answer
Look, I'll put everything on the table.
I think you're a good guy. I also think you're deathly afraid of the modern Christian conception of hell, far more than you're letting on or than you like to think about, especially how it relates to those who are unsaved. I think it's something that you don't want to believe, but I think it's something that you feel you have to believe, because you're caught in the classic catch-22 of wanting to avoid it yet believing that in order to avoid it you have to believe that it's as you've been told.
I'm trying to help you by leading you towards the reality that that was not the earliest conception of hell and that the majority opinion in the earlist form of Christianity was that hell was a place of atonement and purification that prepared those within it for their reconciliation with God, and that one does not have to live one's life in perpetual fear that one or one's loved ones might mess up and go there to be tortured for all eternity. But I can only lead the horse to water; I can't make it drink. It takes courage on the part of the one who's afraid to be willing to sacrifice their own eternal destiny in order to stand up to religious orthodoxy and reject that that is the only way things can possibly be, and affirm that God truly does love everyone, and I hope for your mental health that that day will come soon, because frankly hell and fear thereof is something that positively eats a person from the inside-out if it goes unreconciled.
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] We are already all sinners according to the bible and all it says you need to do is accept jesus as your lord and worship him. You can still accept jesus as your lord and worship him while molesting children. OmniGo0se
Show me where it says that.
Or, even better, show me where Jesus says that.
I don't know where or if it says that all I know is that according to jesus we are all sinners and the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus and he will take away our sins. Which means you can do horrible things for what ever reason (maybe you hear voices and you think they are god that tell you do things for him like kill... It makes sense cause he wanted a lot of people killed in the OT), but as long as you accept jesus as the only way to heaven you can still go...I'll come clean: it was a trick question. :P Jesus does not say that. Ever. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say anything resembling that, because that wasn't his message; that is the product of two thousand years of human filtration. The concept of "accepting Jesus as one's lord and savior" does not appear anywhere in the Bible at all.
[QUOTE="xxKai"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Let me ask you a question: If two people commit a crime; one steals a piece of bubble gum, and the other slaughters a little girl. The judge brings his son into the courtroom and the jurors beat him to death. The judge asks the two men if they accept that his son took their punishment, the murderer says yes and is set free and the bubble gum thief says no and its given the electric chair. Are you alright with that system?
EDIT: Let me make it a bit more accurate; after being set free the murderer is personally set up by the judge with a luxirious mansion, all the money he could imagine, the best cars on the market etc, while the bubble gum theif is slowly castrated with machettes by the prison guards day and night, trying to kill him as slowly as possible.
There, is that a just system to you?
KeitekeTokage
Lemme think... Um... no? it doesn't seem right why the person gets more than the other
This is exactly the system for which you are supporting in regards to God. Why is it that you don't find this to be right in this situation? He asked for forgiveness right? Whats wrong with the bubble gum thief being tortured if he didn't ask for forgiveness though? Also, whats wrong with the murderer getting a reward for obeying? And lastly, is there anything wrong with sacrificing the judges son for those two men? Does the idea that his death translates even make sense?Well hey man I gotta cut off here it's gettin real late and I still have to study for finals, but hey it's been fun I've learned a lot of things so thanks, I'll try to start reading the bible and get a better understanding of it then maybe we can continue this :P keep in touch bro, goodnight
[QUOTE="xxKai"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
Then what exactly would make it heaven, if you lived with the eternal knowledge that someone you loved is being tortured forever?
GabuEx
That's something I can't answer
Look, I'll put everything on the table.
I think you're a good guy. I also think you're deathly afraid of the modern Christian conception of hell, far more than you're letting on or than you like to think about, especially how it relates to those who are unsaved. I think it's something that you don't want to believe, but I think it's something that you feel you have to believe, because you're caught in the classic catch-22 of wanting to avoid it yet believing that in order to avoid it you have to believe that it's as you've been told.
I'm trying to help you by leading you towards the reality that that was not the earliest conception of hell and that the majority opinion in the earlist form of Christianity was that hell was a place of atonement and purification that prepared those within it for their reconciliation with God, and that one does not have to live one's life in perpetual fear that one or one's loved ones might mess up and go there to be tortured for all eternity. But I can only lead the horse to water; I can't make it drink. It takes courage on the part of the one who's afraid to be willing to sacrifice their own eternal destiny in order to stand up to religious orthodoxy and reject that that is the only way things can possibly be, and that God truly does love everyone, and I hope for your mental health that that day will come soon, because frankly hell and fear thereof is something that positively eats a person from the inside-out if it goes unreconciled.
I see dude, well I'll be thinkin of that thanks :)
So you're saying bubble gum stealing is equal to murder. Not only that but it would be ok if the murderer is forgiven for his crime as long as he asks the judge to be forgiven, right? And its ok that the bubble gum thief be tortured, since he didn't ask right? The judge is the boss after all isn't he?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="xxKai"]
A sin is a sin no matter how small or big... I'm not sure if that answers the question, does it?
xxKai
Well if we're still talking about religion, I guess? But in this human society, of course not, because the bubble dude only stole a small bubble gum and the murderer murdered. I'm trying to get this into Christianity form.... Jesus, God's only Son, sacrificed His life for us so that all we have to do is repent and ask him to be your saviour. He's done everything for us, felt our pain, gone through temptations. This gives us a way to God, because the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, a sin is a sin and we're going to hell for it, the standards were very high before Jesus died, I forget where I heard this but stuff like looking at a woman is considered adultery and etc. So let's see... The murderer doesn't just ask, he repents, he thinks of what he's done and has a new relationship with God, being cleansed and not being a murderer anymore, same goes for the bubble guy, no sin is acceptable and he should know that, there are no exceptions so why try to get away with it... Someone with valid scripture should help me out here lulz :P
So you've admitted that you're perfectly ok with the system I gave you, and that a kid who stole bubble gum should be tortured if he doesn't ask for forgiveness, and that there isn't anything wrong with it. You've also admitted that at the same time its ok if the murderer is set free and set up nicely with everything he could possibly want since he asked for forgiveness. This is a system you agree with, correct? Even if the bubble gum stealer was your mother, and the murderer was also someone who had raped your girlfriend, this system is fine with you, right? If God carried this out, you'd have no problem with it. In fact, if you had your way, this same system would be implemented into our justice system right? You see nothing wrong with it as far as you're concerned.I don't know where or if it says that all I know is that according to jesus we are all sinners and the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus and he will take away our sins. Which means you can do horrible things for what ever reason (maybe you hear voices and you think they are god that tell you do things for him like kill... It makes sense cause he wanted a lot of people killed in the OT), but as long as you accept jesus as the only way to heaven you can still go...[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]
Show me where it says that.
Or, even better, show me where Jesus says that.
GabuEx
I'll come clean: it was a trick question. :P Jesus does not say that. Ever. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say anything resembling that, because that wasn't his message; that is the product of two thousand years of human filtration. The concept of "accepting Jesus as one's lord and savior" does not appear anywhere in the Bible at all.
You know way to much about religion and the bible. I guess I only think I know what I grew up hearing and clearly it's been wrong several timesLast questions I'll try to answer as best I can
So you've admitted that you're perfectly ok with the system I gave you, and that a kid who stole bubble gum should be tortured if he doesn't ask for forgiveness, and that there isn't anything wrong with it.KeitekeTokage
If I can get this into Christianity correctly again... The bubble guy is and has been a sinner, it wasn't just stealing some small little thing, he's done countless of sins, he's not perfect, so... he should be punished for it? I'm still thinking about it
You've also admitted that at the same time its ok if the murderer is set free and set up nicely with everything he could possibly want since he asked for forgiveness.KeitekeTokage
It's not like I'm all cool with the murderer all of the sudden, I feel bad for bubble, and I have my dislike towards murderer, but the murderer's done the right thing in this situation
This is exactly the system for which you are supporting in regards to God. Why is it that you don't find this to be right in this situation? He asked for forgiveness right? Whats wrong with the bubble gum thief being tortured if he didn't ask for forgiveness though? Also, whats wrong with the murderer getting a reward for obeying? And lastly, is there anything wrong with sacrificing the judges son for those two men? Does the idea that his death translates even make sense?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="xxKai"]
Lemme think... Um... no? it doesn't seem right why the person gets more than the other
xxKai
Well hey man I gotta cut off here it's gettin real late and I still have to study for finals, but hey it's been fun I've learned a lot of things so thanks, I'll try to start reading the bible and get a better understanding of it then maybe we can continue this :P keep in touch bro, goodnight
Np man. One recommendation though don't try to find answers through bible goggles. Just sit and use your mind to think about this. I'm not going to set you up with any atheist arguments or anything. Just sit down, and think about it with your brain. Just yourself. Ask yourself what's right and wrong, where things do or don't make sense and come to your own conclusions about it.Last questions I'll try to answer as best I can
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]So you've admitted that you're perfectly ok with the system I gave you, and that a kid who stole bubble gum should be tortured if he doesn't ask for forgiveness, and that there isn't anything wrong with it.xxKai
If I can get this into Christianity correctly again... The bubble guy is and has been a sinner, it wasn't just stealing some small little thing, he's done countless of sins, he's not perfect, so... he should be punished for it? I'm still thinking about it
You've also admitted that at the same time its ok if the murderer is set free and set up nicely with everything he could possibly want since he asked for forgiveness.KeitekeTokage
It's not like I'm all cool with the murderer all of the sudden, I feel bad for bubble, and I have my dislike towards murderer, but the murderer's done the right thing in this situation
Your girlfriends rapist-- Slaughtering a little girl and then saying "I'm sorry" is the right thing here, and deserves reward? Meanwhile stealing bubble gum (your mom) and not saying "I'm sorry" is the wrong thing here, and deserves torture? Think about that, ask yourself why you never run into something like that in the real world.Ask yourself if you think it would take more than 5 seconds for that judge to have his ass lit ablaze.
Last Edit: What do you think would be the first thing to come out of your mouth would be when you asked the judge why he forgave your girlfriends rapist and murderer and his reply was "well, he said I'm sorry". And his reasoning for torturing your mom was "well, she wouldn't say sorry to me!".
I don't know where or if it says that all I know is that according to jesus we are all sinners and the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus and he will take away our sins. Which means you can do horrible things for what ever reason (maybe you hear voices and you think they are god that tell you do things for him like kill... It makes sense cause he wanted a lot of people killed in the OT), but as long as you accept jesus as the only way to heaven you can still go...[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]
Show me where it says that.
Or, even better, show me where Jesus says that.
GabuEx
I'll come clean: it was a trick question. :P Jesus does not say that. Ever. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say anything resembling that, because that wasn't his message; that is the product of two thousand years of human filtration. The concept of "accepting Jesus as one's lord and savior" does not appear anywhere in the Bible at all.
John 14:6 & Jude 1:25.
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] I don't know where or if it says that all I know is that according to jesus we are all sinners and the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus and he will take away our sins. Which means you can do horrible things for what ever reason (maybe you hear voices and you think they are god that tell you do things for him like kill... It makes sense cause he wanted a lot of people killed in the OT), but as long as you accept jesus as the only way to heaven you can still go... OmniGo0se
I'll come clean: it was a trick question. :P Jesus does not say that. Ever. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say anything resembling that, because that wasn't his message; that is the product of two thousand years of human filtration. The concept of "accepting Jesus as one's lord and savior" does not appear anywhere in the Bible at all.
You know way to much about religion and the bible. I guess I only think I know what I grew up hearing and clearly it's been wrong several timesThe more I study the subject, the more I find it amazing the number of things that most think are present in the Bible, but which are in fact either from Dante's Divine Comedy, or just straight-up made up out of thin air. The concept of Jesus being the savior is, of course, in the Bible, but the thing there is that the original Christians believed that, upon his sacrifice, he had already saved the world, and now all that was left is for humanity to be reconciled with God. It wasn't until much later that the concept of "accepting Jesus" or else you go to hell reared its ugly head (and even then the Romans basically had to force people to stop believing this universalist doctrine).
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"] I don't know where or if it says that all I know is that according to jesus we are all sinners and the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus and he will take away our sins. Which means you can do horrible things for what ever reason (maybe you hear voices and you think they are god that tell you do things for him like kill... It makes sense cause he wanted a lot of people killed in the OT), but as long as you accept jesus as the only way to heaven you can still go... nickz_fpk
I'll come clean: it was a trick question. :P Jesus does not say that. Ever. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say anything resembling that, because that wasn't his message; that is the product of two thousand years of human filtration. The concept of "accepting Jesus as one's lord and savior" does not appear anywhere in the Bible at all.
John 14:6 & Jude 1:25.
Neither say anything whatsoever about "accepting" Jesus. That is an interpretation that only comes through the filtration of preconceived doctrine. As above, the earliest Christians believed that when Jesus died on the cross, the world was already saved at that point in time. Jesus can scarcely be called the savior of the world (1 Timothy 4:10) if he will ultimately fail to save the vast majority of the world. If Christians approach the Bible with the thought already in their mind that one must accept Jesus to be saved, then they will "find" it here or there, because they believe that it must be in there and only needs to be found, so they see it in everything. In actuality, it's just plain not there at all.
[QUOTE="xxKai"]Dont you think the idea of a place where you're eternally happy would be extremely boring? Especially since you'd be an angel, and as such wouldn't die? That would be hell for me, boredom forever. Which would make Heaven, Hell IMO. In the same sense, people who wish to have premarital sex are often told they're going to Hell. But if you want to have premarital sex, you can't do that in Heaven, however Hell would allow that. Making Hell > Heaven in that scenario. I could go on. This doesn't make sense. Eternally happy = boring? If I could be happy for one week, nonstop that would be nice enough but for eternity? Sign me up. And I'm pretty sure Hell is a place of torment so there won't be any sex there at all. Perhaps in heaven you will be stuck with one female for eternity but when you have sex the orgasms last for years and years.What? Heaven is Heaven and hell is hell, even Satan knows that
Nibroc420
[QUOTE="nickz_fpk"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
I'll come clean: it was a trick question. :P Jesus does not say that. Ever. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say anything resembling that, because that wasn't his message; that is the product of two thousand years of human filtration. The concept of "accepting Jesus as one's lord and savior" does not appear anywhere in the Bible at all.
GabuEx
John 14:6 & Jude 1:25.
Neither say anything whatsoever about "accepting" Jesus. That is an interpretation that only comes through the filtration of preconceived doctrine. As above, the earliest Christians believed that when Jesus died on the cross, the world was already saved at that point in time. Jesus can scarcely be called the savior of the world (1 Timothy 4:10) if he will ultimately fail to save the vast majority of the world. If Christians approach the Bible with the thought already in their mind that one must accept Jesus to be saved, then they will "find" it here or there, because they believe that it must be in there and only needs to be found, so they see it in everything. In actuality, it's just plain not there at all.
Hmm interesting.
[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="xxKai"]Dont you think the idea of a place where you're eternally happy would be extremely boring? Especially since you'd be an angel, and as such wouldn't die? That would be hell for me, boredom forever. Which would make Heaven, Hell IMO. In the same sense, people who wish to have premarital sex are often told they're going to Hell. But if you want to have premarital sex, you can't do that in Heaven, however Hell would allow that. Making Hell > Heaven in that scenario. I could go on. This doesn't make sense. Eternally happy = boring? If I could be happy for one week, nonstop that would be nice enough but for eternity? Sign me up. And I'm pretty sure Hell is a place of torment so there won't be any sex there at all. Perhaps in heaven you will be stuck with one female for eternity but when you have sex the orgasms last for years and years. A life where you'd have everything you wanted would get VERY boring. Especially with all God's rules in place. Not sure why you find that hard to comprehend.What? Heaven is Heaven and hell is hell, even Satan knows that
Meinhard1
So you're saying bubble gum stealing is equal to murder. Not only that but it would be ok if the murderer is forgiven for his crime as long as he asks the judge to be forgiven, right? And its ok that the bubble gum thief be tortured, since he didn't ask right? The judge is the boss after all isn't he?KeitekeTokage
You know way to much about religion and the bible. I guess I only think I know what I grew up hearing and clearly it's been wrong several timesOmniGo0se
Somebody please quote the Bible, rather than BS'ing your way thru this debate. If you are going to talk about Satan or God, or whoever is evil etc., then quote some scripture.wslacker2I don't like when people quote the scriptures. They seem too bias toward God while not allowing Satan to defend himself or tell his side of the story. Kind of like going to court and hearing a guy write a story about what happen, and the jury sides with him without allowing the defendant a chance to say his side of the story.....
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