If Satan wants us to Disobey God, and We end up in Hell...

[QUOTE="xxKai"]

[QUOTE="needled24-7"]so do you think the only way to heaven is through christ?needled24-7

Yep

even a genuinly good person that is atheist will still go to hell or what?needled24-7

There's only one way, and it's been made pretty clear throughout the bible

you seem like a pretty good guyneedled24-7

Thanks haha :P

so i'd imagine you would date a nice girl as wellneedled24-7

She's amazing

and if she is a wholesome individual, do you think she would go to heaven or hell if she died tomorrow, even though she has not been saved?needled24-7

Honestly, she'd go to hell, but I've been talking to her and so she's been havin a bigger chance. I'm beggin on my knees for God to give me time

i would say good luck on getting her converted, but i'm not a christian, i won't wish bad luck though.

i don't like to consider myself an atheist though, i just don't like the word "atheist", sounds evil to me :P

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

[QUOTE="stanleycup98"]How do we know that God is the "good guy" and Satan is the "bad guy"? Christians are taught throughout their religious education that Satan is trying to deceive you. Yet when you actually look at the Bible, the opposite can be assumed true. Satan killed very few people in the Bible, while God killed millions. Satan wanted free will, God did not. God wants you to continuously praise him and worship him throughout your life, Satan wants you do to do what you want. God tries to stress how we should not follow Satan because he is terrible, yet I have yet to be contacted by Satan to convince me to murder anybody. If you look at these facts from a completely objective point of view, which one appears to be the "good guy", the egoistical murderer or the criticized preacher of free will? The only reason that we follow God is because a book tells us to. No one actually knows who is the better guy, we just do what we are told. Sounds like a recipe for success, no?GabuEx

Satan has killed well over billions of people. He has NOT stopped killing people. Both emotionally and physically. God does want free will for us your just not understanding it, free will is the ability to do what you want and we have that. EXAMPLE: I can kill some one if I want. God gives us the choice to follow him and his commandments or not. God wants us to praise him because he wants to have a personal relationship with us and bless us and love us unconditionaly. Satan wants you to do what you want because it often leads to catastrophe. EXAMPLE: I want to have sex before marriage. The devil wants you to do that because of all the consequences of premarigal sex like un wanted babies, std's , and more. You aren't litteraly contacted by satan to kill someone. You Obviosuly would not do it. he starts off small by putting hatred filled thoughts in ur mind. Eventually that leads hatred in your heart to kill someone. I follow God cause I am utterly In-loce with him and I know I am flawed But God Is so Great that he helps me out everyday

"God wants us to have free will; it's just that he'll punish us for eternity if we exercise it" is - no offense - one of the weirdest arguments I've ever run into.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

Satan has killed well over billions of people. He has NOT stopped killing people. Both emotionally and physically. God does want free will for us your just not understanding it, free will is the ability to do what you want and we have that. EXAMPLE: I can kill some one if I want. God gives us the choice to follow him and his commandments or not. God wants us to praise him because he wants to have a personal relationship with us and bless us and love us unconditionaly. Satan wants you to do what you want because it often leads to catastrophe. EXAMPLE: I want to have sex before marriage. The devil wants you to do that because of all the consequences of premarigal sex like un wanted babies, std's , and more. You aren't litteraly contacted by satan to kill someone. You Obviosuly would not do it. he starts off small by putting hatred filled thoughts in ur mind. Eventually that leads hatred in your heart to kill someone. I follow God cause I am utterly In-loce with him and I know I am flawed But God Is so Great that he helps me out everyday

TheStarM4n

"God wants us to have free will; it's just that he'll punish us for eternity if we exercise it" is - no offense - one of the weirdest arguments I've ever run into.

What do you mean by unable? Like never being taught about Jesus?TheStarM4n

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]What do you mean by unable? Like never being taught about Jesus?KeitekeTokage

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]What do you mean by unable? Like never being taught about Jesus?TheStarM4n

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]What do you mean by unable? Like never being taught about Jesus?TheStarM4n

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa......whoa...............whoa....

LOL, please tell me that you were being satirical about that..

Did I mention Christianity is one of the only beliefs that believes in miracles? You might say something like "I never see miracles before" or something similar to that but its because they are very rare. Why are they rare you may ask? Because a miracle isn't a miracle if it happens often. The bible's description of Jesus when he heals people is most of the time "most people were healed" or "Some were healed" Very rarely does it say "everyone was healed" That would defeat the purpose of a miracle. Again, whether you believe me or not its completely up to you. Actually, recently an extremely famous pastor died. I think his name was Oral Roberts or something like that? He publicly televised miracles and stuff you should check him out! He is like one of the most famous preachers of all time!

I am being completely serious here. I guess your not going to believe me, oh well :/

Did I mention Christianity is one of the only beliefs that believes in miracles? You might say something like "I never see miracles before" or something similar to that but its because they are very rare. Why are they rare you may ask? Because a miracle isn't a miracle if it happens often. The bible's description of Jesus when he heals people is most of the time "most people were healed" or "Some were healed" Very rarely does it say "everyone was healed" That would defeat the purpose of a miracle. Again, whether you believe me or not its completely up to you. Actually, recently an extremely famous pastor died. I think his name was Oral Roberts or something like that? He publicly televised miracles and stuff you should check him out! He is like one of the most famous preachers of all time!TheStarM4n

Can you not make fun of my beliefs? I respect your belief in atheism and I havn't made fun of you. That was really low dude :|

Did I mention Christianity is one of the only beliefs that believes in miracles? You might say something like "I never see miracles before" or something similar to that but its because they are very rare. Why are they rare you may ask? Because a miracle isn't a miracle if it happens often. The bible's description of Jesus when he heals people is most of the time "most people were healed" or "Some were healed" Very rarely does it say "everyone was healed" That would defeat the purpose of a miracle. Again, whether you believe me or not its completely up to you. Actually, recently an extremely famous pastor died. I think his name was Oral Roberts or something like that? He publicly televised miracles and stuff you should check him out! He is like one of the most famous preachers of all time!

I am being completely serious here. I guess your not going to believe me, oh well :/

TheStarM4n

I can tell you're being sincere. I do think however you're extremely gullible or trolling.

Can you not make fun of my beliefs? I respect your belief in atheism and I havn't made fun of you. That was really low dude :|

TheStarM4n

Seeing miracles with my own eyes is not being gullible. You taking my word that I have actually seen miracles in multiple churches that I've been to, Christian seminars etc, is all you can do. If your not going to believe me there really isn't point in me talking with you again. Unless you have any other questions I'm going now.

Edit: I thought you did not believe in God? Anyways, I saw a guy who brang medical papers saying he going to die of terminal cancer in a few months from his hospital. Oral Robers Prayed for a healing and he came back months later with a new medical report saying the cancer is completely gone and he is in full health.

Seeing miracles with my own eyes is not being gullible. You taking my word that I have actually seen miracles in multiple churches that I've been to, Christian seminars etc, is all you can do. If your not going to believe me there really isn't point in me talking with you again. Unless you have any other questions I'm going now.

Edit: I thought you did not believe in God? Anyways, I saw a guy who brang medical papers saying he going to die of terminal cancer in a few months from his hospital. Oral Robers Prayed for a healing and he came back months later with a new medical report saying the cancer is completely gone and he is in full health.

TheStarM4n

I completely understand GabuEx that it may seem like a weird argument. Well actually the majority of punishment is not even from God! Its actually from the consequences from the actions themselves. Like: I steal a car. Punishment not from God but from the action: I go to jail. Its not per say the actual actions that we do that end up us leading to hell, its the lack of faith of believeing Jesus as your Lord and Savior ( From a Christian point of belief). When you say, "; it's just that he'll punish us for eternity if we exercise it" well, yea but only if you take advantage of it by doing the wrong thing. God is CONSTANTLY giving us ways how to resist the wrong and fight temptation. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do it by ourselves. "I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me" Philippians 4:13. You have to admit its a bit fairer when Jesus/God is assiting us right?

TheStarM4n

Which is exactly what I said.

"You can do anything you want!! ...But if you do anything I don't want you to, then you'll be tortured forever."

So... according to this doctrine, God basically just gave us all the ability to **** ourselves over for all eternity. Great.

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh when people call this the "gospel" (i.e., "good news"). "Hey, guess what? You and everyone you know are going to be tortured forever in this place called hell because you're not perfect! And even though the vast majority of the world, and almost certainly at least someone you love, is going to be tortured forever, you can personally avoid this fate if, and only if, your upbringing makes your mind receptive towards a factual belief!" This is "good news"? Really? I don't understand how anyone could be comfortable with the idea that the vast majority of the world, who deserve it no more than oneself, is going to be tortured forever in hell. It's so unbelievably selfish that someone could be content with "I've got mine" in heaven while the rest of the world burns. The way in which modern Christian doctrine leads people to be primarily concerned with their own hide is not only sick, but absolutely contrary to Jesus' message.

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

Seeing miracles with my own eyes is not being gullible. You taking my word that I have actually seen miracles in multiple churches that I've been to, Christian seminars etc, is all you can do. If your not going to believe me there really isn't point in me talking with you again. Unless you have any other questions I'm going now.

Edit: I thought you did not believe in God? Anyways, I saw a guy who brang medical papers saying he going to die of terminal cancer in a few months from his hospital. Oral Robers Prayed for a healing and he came back months later with a new medical report saying the cancer is completely gone and he is in full health.

KeitekeTokage

This was done before any treatment before cancer even exsisted. They are not going to every medical hospital because ( I guess you weren't paying attention) sometimes it doesen't work because they are MIRACLES. They receive there power from God. Like I said before, miracles aren't miracles if they happen frequently, so people instantly just deny it or just give it some excuse. The cancer did not go into remission. Stop making excuses. This was a live television event broadcasted all over the world, you honestly think they were fake papers?

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

I completely understand GabuEx that it may seem like a weird argument. Well actually the majority of punishment is not even from God! Its actually from the consequences from the actions themselves. Like: I steal a car. Punishment not from God but from the action: I go to jail. Its not per say the actual actions that we do that end up us leading to hell, its the lack of faith of believeing Jesus as your Lord and Savior ( From a Christian point of belief). When you say, "; it's just that he'll punish us for eternity if we exercise it" well, yea but only if you take advantage of it by doing the wrong thing. God is CONSTANTLY giving us ways how to resist the wrong and fight temptation. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do it by ourselves. "I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me" Philippians 4:13. You have to admit its a bit fairer when Jesus/God is assiting us right?

GabuEx

Which is exactly what I said.

"You can do anything you want!! ...But if you do anything I don't want you to, then you'll be tortured forever."

So... according to this doctrine, God basically just gave us all the ability to **** ourselves over for all eternity. Great.

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh when people call this the "gospel" (i.e., "good news"). "Hey, guess what? You and everyone you know are going to be tortured forever in this place called hell because you're not perfect! And even though the vast majority of the world, and almost certainly at least someone you love, is going to be tortured forever, you can personally avoid this fate if, and only if, your upbringing makes your mind receptive towards a factual belief!" This is "good news"? Really? I don't understand how anyone could be comfortable with the idea that the vast majority of the world, who deserve it no more than oneself, is going to be tortured forever in hell. It's so unbelievably selfish that someone could be content with "I've got mine" in heaven while the rest of the world burns. The way in which modern Christian doctrine leads people to be primarily concerned with their own hide is not only sick, but absolutely contrary to Jesus' message.

the good news is that Jesus died for us so no one has to go to hell. Not a single human being. Accept or pay the price for your faults. Your right, the vast majoirty of the world is going to hell, but look around you. The majority of the world is not turning from their evil ways. they continue to disobey God's world, Lie, Cheat, Murder, Steal, Adulterate, Idolitrate, etc. YEAH WERE HUMAN YEA WE MAKE MISTAKES but guess what? We don't have to pay foir all of them. You honestly believe these people deserve to go to heaven? I'm trying to spread the word of God because of its hope and love and how it will just overall improve one's life. The real reason a person(s) going to hell is because your rejecting the single most loving thing anyone has EVER and WILL do for you. And that is Chirst's sacrafice on the cross

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

Seeing miracles with my own eyes is not being gullible. You taking my word that I have actually seen miracles in multiple churches that I've been to, Christian seminars etc, is all you can do. If your not going to believe me there really isn't point in me talking with you again. Unless you have any other questions I'm going now.

Edit: I thought you did not believe in God? Anyways, I saw a guy who brang medical papers saying he going to die of terminal cancer in a few months from his hospital. Oral Robers Prayed for a healing and he came back months later with a new medical report saying the cancer is completely gone and he is in full health.

TheStarM4n

This was done before any treatment before cancer even exsisted. They are not going to every medical hospital because ( I guess you weren't paying attention) sometimes it doesen't work because they are MIRACLES. They receive there power from God. Like I said before, miracles aren't miracles if they happen frequently, so people instantly just deny it or just give it some excuse. The cancer did not go into remission. Stop making excuses. This was a live television event broadcasted all over the world, you honestly think they were fake papers?

Oh and also, please give the full name of the man who was claimed to have been healed.

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Yes, you really are gullible. The idea that there are people at these seminars and churces you've been to that are healing cancer for instance downright silly. These men would be utilized across the world in nearly every medical hospital they could get them to, yet that isn't happening, because they're frauds. Also, if the same thing had happened, and instead a man claiming he had the power of invisible pixies put his hands on the cancer patients head and said "In the name of pixies, heal this man!!!" and a few months later the man was healed, would you believe that? Why or why not? You need to think a bit more critically. You're claiming the direct reason of his health becoming better is because of what Oral Robers did. Yet you've completely neglected that the cancer went into remission or the actual doctors who get paid to take care of this stuff were able to do their job correctly, and just jump to "God did it!". That's being gullible. Also, you claim he brought medical papers yet you can't really know for sure whether or not they were real, you simply accepted they were. And again, it's astonishing to me that you don't find it to be the least bit odd that seemingly none of the medical world seems to care about these guys, and yet this is exactly what one of the biggest medical issues is in the world right now; cancer. That or the fact that none of the media seems to care either. In fact, this not becoming absolutely world wide news doesn't make any sense at all. And no, I don't believe God exists.KeitekeTokage

This was done before any treatment before cancer even exsisted. They are not going to every medical hospital because ( I guess you weren't paying attention) sometimes it doesen't work because they are MIRACLES. They receive there power from God. Like I said before, miracles aren't miracles if they happen frequently, so people instantly just deny it or just give it some excuse. The cancer did not go into remission. Stop making excuses. This was a live television event broadcasted all over the world, you honestly think they were fake papers?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

I completely understand GabuEx that it may seem like a weird argument. Well actually the majority of punishment is not even from God! Its actually from the consequences from the actions themselves. Like: I steal a car. Punishment not from God but from the action: I go to jail. Its not per say the actual actions that we do that end up us leading to hell, its the lack of faith of believeing Jesus as your Lord and Savior ( From a Christian point of belief). When you say, "; it's just that he'll punish us for eternity if we exercise it" well, yea but only if you take advantage of it by doing the wrong thing. God is CONSTANTLY giving us ways how to resist the wrong and fight temptation. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do it by ourselves. "I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me" Philippians 4:13. You have to admit its a bit fairer when Jesus/God is assiting us right?

TheStarM4n

Which is exactly what I said.

"You can do anything you want!! ...But if you do anything I don't want you to, then you'll be tortured forever."

So... according to this doctrine, God basically just gave us all the ability to **** ourselves over for all eternity. Great.

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh when people call this the "gospel" (i.e., "good news"). "Hey, guess what? You and everyone you know are going to be tortured forever in this place called hell because you're not perfect! And even though the vast majority of the world, and almost certainly at least someone you love, is going to be tortured forever, you can personally avoid this fate if, and only if, your upbringing makes your mind receptive towards a factual belief!" This is "good news"? Really? I don't understand how anyone could be comfortable with the idea that the vast majority of the world, who deserve it no more than oneself, is going to be tortured forever in hell. It's so unbelievably selfish that someone could be content with "I've got mine" in heaven while the rest of the world burns. The way in which modern Christian doctrine leads people to be primarily concerned with their own hide is not only sick, but absolutely contrary to Jesus' message.

the good news is that Jesus died for us so no one has to go to hell. Not a single human being. Accept or pay the price for your faults. Your right, the vast majoirty of the world is going to hell, but look around you. The majority of the world is not turning from their evil ways. they continue to disobey God's world, Lie, Cheat, Murder, Steal, Adulterate, Idolitrate, etc. YEAH WERE HUMAN YEA WE MAKE MISTAKES but guess what? We don't have to pay foir all of them. You honestly believe these people deserve to go to heaven? I'm trying to spread the word of God because of its hope and love and how it will just overall improve one's life. The real reason a person(s) going to hell is because your rejecting the single most loving thing anyone has EVER and WILL do for you. And that is Chirst's sacrafice on the cross

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

This was done before any treatment before cancer even exsisted. They are not going to every medical hospital because ( I guess you weren't paying attention) sometimes it doesen't work because they are MIRACLES. They receive there power from God. Like I said before, miracles aren't miracles if they happen frequently, so people instantly just deny it or just give it some excuse. The cancer did not go into remission. Stop making excuses. This was a live television event broadcasted all over the world, you honestly think they were fake papers?

TheStarM4n

(@omnigoose) What a conicidence that you said that! The second coming is when Jesus returns from heaven and goes to Earth where all of the Earth will see him. The exact time is so secret that not even the Angels know! But if your talking about right now, he is but not litteraly/physically. Think about it for a second. The exact thing you said happened when Jesus was born from Marry. two-thousand ten years latter, guess what?!?!, look at all these people that don't believe. Its a vicious cycle: God comes to earth, People believe, time passes, people don't believe, and so on

@Keiteke

The reason I have no urge to provide proof to you is honestly because, 1: I don't feel like it, 2: Your going to need proof for the proof for the proof :roll:

3: to be honest, I'm tired of argueing. I never lost the argument. I never came close to loosing it. Why? Because I'm on Jesus's side. When you continue to neglect God's love continually, you WILL pay the consequences, maybe not in your life on Earth but one way or another. Good fight.

[QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

(@omnigoose) What a conicidence that you said that! The second coming is when Jesus returns from heaven and goes to Earth where all of the Earth will see him. The exact time is so secret that not even the Angels know! But if your talking about right now, he is but not litteraly/physically. Think about it for a second. The exact thing you said happened when Jesus was born from Marry. two-thousand ten years latter, guess what?!?!, look at all these people that don't believe. Its a vicious cycle: God comes to earth, People believe, time passes, people don't believe, and so on

OmniGo0se

[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

(@omnigoose) What a conicidence that you said that! The second coming is when Jesus returns from heaven and goes to Earth where all of the Earth will see him. The exact time is so secret that not even the Angels know! But if your talking about right now, he is but not litteraly/physically. Think about it for a second. The exact thing you said happened when Jesus was born from Marry. two-thousand ten years latter, guess what?!?!, look at all these people that don't believe. Its a vicious cycle: God comes to earth, People believe, time passes, people don't believe, and so on

TheStarM4n

[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="TheStarM4n"]

(@omnigoose) What a conicidence that you said that! The second coming is when Jesus returns from heaven and goes to Earth where all of the Earth will see him. The exact time is so secret that not even the Angels know! But if your talking about right now, he is but not litteraly/physically. Think about it for a second. The exact thing you said happened when Jesus was born from Marry. two-thousand ten years latter, guess what?!?!, look at all these people that don't believe. Its a vicious cycle: God comes to earth, People believe, time passes, people don't believe, and so on

TheStarM4n

Apparently nobody read the part about the fire.

And why must every religon thread turn into a debate? A debate where both sides aren't even arguing about the same thing, no less.

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"]Satan wants to make everybody suffer, yo Nibroc420

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="BranKetra"]Have you ever taken medieval humanities/middle ages course? OmniGo0se

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="DivergeUnify"]Satan wants to make everybody suffer, yo lightleggy

[QUOTE="BranKetra"]Have you ever taken medieval humanities/middle ages course? Nibroc420

[QUOTE="lightleggy"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] No he doesn't. He simply wanted humans to have free will, nothing suggests otherwise.OmniGo0se

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Who told you that?Nibroc420

2 Peter 2:4: "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into chains of darkness to be held for judgment."

I've never been to Mars, but i can assure you there ARE aliens there. :roll:

Your "proof" is nothing but speculism.

by claiming you believe in hell, you claim you believe in the words of the bible.

[QUOTE="lightleggy"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] No he doesn't. He simply wanted humans to have free will, nothing suggests otherwise.OmniGo0se

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Actually, there is proof for some things. BranKetra

And more OT, the purgatory is discribed as a horrific thing, so i don't see hell being a relaxed place.

[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="lightleggy"] satan purpose was to be greater than God...so no, you wouldnt be an ally, he would just see you as a small cockroach lightleggy

[QUOTE="OmniGo0se"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] There's no proof to either side. The chance of it being true/false is equal to someone flipping a coin.Nibroc420

*sigh* Here we go again. A person who is unaware that he/she is interpeting the bible when reading it.There is so many demonations for a reason you know.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

2 Peter 2:4: "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into chains of darkness to be held for judgment."

lightleggy

I've never been to Mars, but i can assure you there ARE aliens there. :roll:

Your "proof" is nothing but speculism.

by claiming you believe in hell, you claim you believe in the words of the bible.

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Nothing concrete.rastotm

And more OT, the purgatory is discribed as a horrific thing, so i don't see hell being a relaxed place.