is religion the main reason women today are second class?

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Men went out to hunt and explore, women stayed back. they were often lead by a male figure.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Men went out to hunt and explore, women stayed back. they were often lead by a male figure.

kraychik

no, Religion is not the reason.

Well religion doesn't help the situation. Above all else religion was historically used to control others and make the members of the religion powerful. The fact that all major religions are led by men is obviously a factor.

And, just letting you know, the common "scientific, objective" view is that religion developed BECAUSE of their culture, not the other way around. Religions are reflections of the society. You're mixing cause and effect.kingkong0124

Out of interest, where did you get that from?
I haven't heard of there being a common view about any of this, just a jumble of chicken-egg arguments, codevelopment theories, and (somewhat convincing) suggestions that the emergence of religion is strongly linked to the development of language skills in our evolving brains.

Not that it really makes a difference here, since these are never unilateral influences - even if you're going to presume that 'culture' came first, it would be completely unrealistic to assume that religion doesn't subsequently re-shape the group's culture, and so on.

Back to the topic though...I really don't see how we can lump all religions together on this one. But it does seem like the most popular ones out there (Christianity, Islam, etc) have certainly played a large part in entrenching women into subordinate roles in society.

They're not the only cause, but they don't (or didn't?) help.

For a forum which many people talk of as being too liberal there seems a healthy dose of "men over women" sh*t going on on this thread.

The reason women are often treated as second class citizens is quite simple: men are generally physically stronger and have historically monopolized military roles (partly because their stronger, partly because small societies can't afford to lose a lot of women in battle because that could seriously imperial the population).

For a forum which many people talk of as being too liberal there seems a healthy dose of "men over women" sh*t going on on this thread.

Master_Live

No. If you had History on college you will know that it's Humanity fault not religion fault.

No it is not. Actually a lot of religions have done things that have helped women. For instance, Islam which is usually portrayed as anti-woman, banned the practice of burying girl babies alive that was practiced in pre-Islamic Arabia. Likewise Christianity prohibited infanticide and exposure (leaving a baby outside to die) which were things that mostly harmed female babies.

"Finally, however, with the Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two measures targeting the problem of infanticide: 1) Constantine provided funds out of the imperial treasury for parents over burdened with children; and 2) Constantine gave all the rights of property of exposed infants to those who saved and supported them. But more generally, Constantine broadened the scope of imperial charity and provided assistance for the poor and needy. "He also acknowledged the new ideal of charity. Previous emperors had encouraged schemes to support small numbers of children in less favored families, the future recruits for their armies. Constantine gave funds to the churches to support the poor, the widow and orphans." And according to Robin L. Fox, the church used those funds for charity. "Swollen by the Emperor's gifts, it helped the old, the infirm, and the destitute." Fox, op. cit., page 668.

Although the church, with the assistance of the government, was working to address many of the causes of infanticide, it continued to pressure Rome for a ban on infanticide. Bishop Basil of Caesarea argued persistently and persuasively for such a ban. Finally, he convinced Emperor Valentinian (364-375 CE)--a Christian--to outlaw the practice of infanticide in the Roman Empire. Finally, infanticide was banned."

Actually, the countries in which women have the most rights, The U.S., Canada, Europe, Australia, are historically and predominantly Christian countries. Contrast that to China, an officially atheist and Communist country, where they have a big problem with sex-selective abortions (i.e. where fetuses are aborted because they are female) and forced abortions and forced sterilizations because of the one child-policy.

I don't know, but maybe some of you may find this article pertinent to this discussion.

For a forum which many people talk of as being too liberal there seems a healthy dose of "men over women" sh*t going on on this thread.

Master_Live

Actually, the countries in which women have the most rights, The U.S., Canada, Europe, Australia, are historically and predominantly Christian countries.whipassmt

Europe and Canada are predominantly Christian? :lol:

[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] And many men gathered while many women hunted. Studies of modern hunter-gatherer societies and archaeological evidence contradict the commonly held belief that these nomadic societies exhibited rigid gender roles. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]Actually, the countries in which women have the most rights, The U.S., Canada, Europe, Australia, are historically and predominantly Christian countries.Heisenderp

Europe and Canada are predominantly Christian? :lol:

Someone should answer this.

[QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]Actually, the countries in which women have the most rights, The U.S., Canada, Europe, Australia, are historically and predominantly Christian countries.Palantas

Europe and Canada are predominantly Christian? :lol:

Someone should answer this.

Depends on how you define Christian but

No it is not. Actually a lot of religions have done things that have helped women. For instance, Islam which is usually portrayed as anti-woman, banned the practice of burying girl babies alive that was practiced in pre-Islamic Arabia. Likewise Christianity prohibited infanticide and exposure (leaving a baby outside to die) which were things that mostly harmed female babies.

"Finally, however, with the Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two measures targeting the problem of infanticide: 1) Constantine provided funds out of the imperial treasury for parents over burdened with children; and 2) Constantine gave all the rights of property of exposed infants to those who saved and supported them. But more generally, Constantine broadened the scope of imperial charity and provided assistance for the poor and needy. "He also acknowledged the new ideal of charity. Previous emperors had encouraged schemes to support small numbers of children in less favored families, the future recruits for their armies. Constantine gave funds to the churches to support the poor, the widow and orphans." And according to Robin L. Fox, the church used those funds for charity. "Swollen by the Emperor's gifts, it helped the old, the infirm, and the destitute." Fox, op. cit., page 668.

Although the church, with the assistance of the government, was working to address many of the causes of infanticide, it continued to pressure Rome for a ban on infanticide. Bishop Basil of Caesarea argued persistently and persuasively for such a ban. Finally, he convinced Emperor Valentinian (364-375 CE)--a Christian--to outlaw the practice of infanticide in the Roman Empire. Finally, infanticide was banned."

Actually, the countries in which women have the most rights, The U.S., Canada, Europe, Australia, are historically and predominantly Christian countries. Contrast that to China, an officially atheist and Communist country, where they have a big problem with sex-selective abortions (i.e. where fetuses are aborted because they are female) and forced abortions and forced sterilizations because of the one child-policy.

whipassmt

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

Europe and Canada are predominantly Christian? :lol:

themajormayor

Someone should answer this.

Depends on how you define Christian but

am i going colorblind

am i going colorblind

Optical_Order

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

Someone should answer this.

Optical_Order

Depends on how you define Christian but

am i going colorblind

I have 2 things to say: 1st: was the "Women always seem to come as Number 2" comment a pun? 2nd: 72 is the ancient Roman number for God. Was it intentional that you put that in there?Kevlar101

I wouldn't say women, I'd say most muslim countries are 2nd / 3rd and worse class based on their religion. Women who allow it and stay there enable it. If they don't like it they should leave.

I do remember him stating that hunting was generally a male-exclusive activity.

kraychik

[QUOTE="kraychik"]

I do remember him stating that hunting was generally a male-exclusive activity.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="kraychik"]

I do remember him stating that hunting was generally a male-exclusive activity.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="kraychik"]

I do remember him stating that hunting was generally a male-exclusive activity.

kingkong0124

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] If he said that then he's wrong. -Sun_Tzu-

Oh yeah?