Is the roman catholic church commiting idolatry?

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Uh....He teaches them...yes. But you can pray without a priest. I'm not sure what you are asking actually....LJS9502_basic

In the broad sense all sects of Christianity (probably) practice idolatry since all (again AFAIK) use objects to represent whatever it is they deem holy (a historic figure, deities, saints etc) and worship them through those objects (not exclusively of course).

But considering how -to me at least- idolatry connects to your typical paganistic worship of objects (idols) I think the only instance where we could say that some Christians practice idolatry (mostly in the past - of those that I know and remember now) is when they worship the shards of the Holy Cross (there are some that survived right?) and from what I hear some people even detached small pieces of it thinking it has magical healing properties or something like that; which mostly stems from the simple-mindedness of the common folk.

Thats when I think that idolatry is commited.

Apart from that, idolatry, even at small "dosages", in today's supposedly solely-spiritual religions is understandable and I dont understand this immediate vilification of any form or level of idolatry (again in the very broad sense).

In the broad sense all sects of Christianity (probably) practice idolatry since all (again AFAIK) use objects to represent whatever it is they deem holy (a historic figure, deities, saints etc) and worship them through those objects (not exclusively of course).

But considering how -to me at least- idolatry connects to your typical paganistic worship of objects (idols) I think the only instance where we could say that Christians practice idolatry (of those that I know and remember now) is when they worship the shards of the Holy Cross (there are some that survived right?) and from what I hear some people even detached small pieces of it thinking it has magical healing properties or something like that; which mostly stems from the simple-mindedness of the common folk.

Thats when I think that idolatry is commited.

Apart from that, idolatry, even at small "dosages", in today's supposedly solely-spiritual religions is understandable and I dont understand this immediate vilification of any form or level of idolatry (again in the very broad sense).

Teenaged

Nope, not even close. Full Gospel doesn't. They follow the Bible, where Jesus said, "Pray to the Father in My Name."

I'm not a Bible-thumper, but I've been in Baptist churches as a child, and non-denominational churches, and I never saw anyone worshipping shards of anything.

I'm needing some denomination names and a link for this.:)

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

In the broad sense all sects of Christianity (probably) practice idolatry since all (again AFAIK) use objects to represent whatever it is they deem holy (a historic figure, deities, saints etc) and worship them through those objects (not exclusively of course).

But considering how -to me at least- idolatry connects to your typical paganistic worship of objects (idols) I think the only instance where we could say that Christians practice idolatry (of those that I know and remember now) is when they worship the shards of the Holy Cross (there are some that survived right?) and from what I hear some people even detached small pieces of it thinking it has magical healing properties or something like that; which mostly stems from the simple-mindedness of the common folk.

Thats when I think that idolatry is commited.

Apart from that, idolatry, even at small "dosages", in today's supposedly solely-spiritual religions is understandable and I dont understand this immediate vilification of any form or level of idolatry (again in the very broad sense).

topsemag55

Nope, not even close. Full Gospel doesn't. They follow the Bible, where Jesus said, "Pray to the Father in My Name."

I'm not a Bible-thumper, but I've been in Baptist churches as a child, and non-denominal churches, and I never saw anyone worshipping shards of anything.

I'm needing some denomination names and a link for this.:)

The "all sects" was referring to the use of images to represent holy people/symbols etc. When I referred to it as 'the broader sense of idolatry' (which is not even the formal meaning of "idolatry" but I just used it to create the contrast between what the Catholic church is doing (and all sects do) and what idolatry really is).

PS: I'll edit my post to make it clear who is (actually was) worshipping the cross in the way I described.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="whitetiger3521"]

The prayer is said while kneeling before a cross.

whitetiger3521

technically you are praying to the cross directing it towards jesus

[QUOTE="Gardenpath"]

As a kid I was told by the ministerthat crucifixes and many of the images used by the Catholic church are a form of idolatry.

Many protestant churches believe it, not that I do.

LJS9502_basic

Fair enough, but I am quite sure he would have used a Greek or Hebrew translation to find the definition of idolatry.

I imagine that they would adhere to the Jewish ideas on idolatry, due to a lack of distinct direction in the new testAment. I reckon that the Jews would view any images of the Creator as idolatry (or maybe I'm thinking of blasphemy).

I will reiterate that this is not my opinion. I wouldn't say the Catholic church are committing idolatry at all.

The "all sects" wasnt referring to the shards of the Cross.

The "all sects" was referring to the use of images to represent holy people/symbols etc. When I referred to it as 'the broader sense of idolatry'.

Teenaged

That's my point - every Protestant church I was in never had any photos of either people or symbols. Some churches had a cross on a wall, but nobody kneeled before it. It was just there to point out the Crucifixion, and nothing more. It was never idolized.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Gardenpath"]

As a kid I was told by the ministerthat crucifixes and many of the images used by the Catholic church are a form of idolatry.

Many protestant churches believe it, not that I do.

Gardenpath

Fair enough, but I am quite sure he would have used a Greek or Hebrew translation to find the definition of idolatry.

I imagine that they would adhere to the Jewish ideas on idolatry, due to a lack of distinct direction in the new testAment. I reckon that the Jews would view any images of the Creator as idolatry (or maybe I'm thinking of blasphemy).

I will reiterate that this is not my opinion. I wouldn't say the Catholic church are committing idolatry at all.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The "all sects" wasnt referring to the shards of the Cross.

The "all sects" was referring to the use of images to represent holy people/symbols etc. When I referred to it as 'the broader sense of idolatry'.

topsemag55

That's my point - every Protestant church I was in never had any photos of either people or symbols. Some churches had a cross on a wall, but nobody kneeled before it. It was just there to point out the Crucifixion, and nothing more. It was never idolized.

If not then compared to them, the Orthodox are big time idolaters. :P Again not in the actual sense of the word.

But anyway I didnt say that even the sects who do have a cross or images in their church really idolise them but that that could fit under a very broad sense of the word idolatry. And like I said in my edit (I didnt make it early enough) I used that sense to create an obvious distinction between idolatry when we (or someone who tries to prove whatever he wants) stretch the term and what it actually is.

[QUOTE="Gardenpath"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I'm not sure the minister understood the definition of idolatry then.....quote...Idolatry is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a monotheistic God. Teenaged

Fair enough, but I am quite sure he would have used a Greek or Hebrew translation to find the definition of idolatry.

I imagine that they would adhere to the Jewish ideas on idolatry, due to a lack of distinct direction in the new testAment. I reckon that the Jews would view any images of the Creator as idolatry (or maybe I'm thinking of blasphemy).

I will reiterate that this is not my opinion. I wouldn't say the Catholic church are committing idolatry at all.

If not then compared to them, the Orthodox are big time idolaters. :P Again not in the actual sense of the word.

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Gardenpath"]

Fair enough, but I am quite sure he would have used a Greek or Hebrew translation to find the definition of idolatry.

I imagine that they would adhere to the Jewish ideas on idolatry, due to a lack of distinct direction in the new testAment. I reckon that the Jews would view any images of the Creator as idolatry (or maybe I'm thinking of blasphemy).

I will reiterate that this is not my opinion. I wouldn't say the Catholic church are committing idolatry at all.

LJS9502_basic

Yes, not just Catholics, but many Christians are guilty of Idolatry. If anyone says that praying to the Cross, kissing the feet of statues, and praying to long dead saints (That cant hear you) is NOT idolatry they are highly, grossly deceived and in denial. To hold this position is to flippantly ignore what the Bible says.

Also, the commandment addressed IDOLS, NOT false idols. That is highly deceptive. Praying to or worshipping of ANY IDOL of ANY KIND is biblically sinful.

They dont have any image of Virgin Mary or Jesus?

Teenaged

None at all. The churches I was in, at least (I mentioned the denominations or lack of (the "non"/independent)).

That's why your post puzzled me. The only happenings were the choir (or a single singer), a sermon, and an opening and a closing prayer.

And those prayers were done while in your seats. There wasn't anything else.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

They dont have any image of Virgin Mary or Jesus?

topsemag55

None at all. The churches I was in, at least (I mentioned the denominations or lack of (the "non"/independent)).

That's why your post puzzled me. The only happenings were the choir (or a single singer), a sermon, and an opening and a closing prayer.

And those prayers were done while in your seats. There wasn't anything else.

I suggest you once visit a typical Orthodox church. You'll be amazed. :P

Interesting.

I suggest you once visit a typical Orthodox church. You'll be amazed. :P

Teenaged

I was puzzled, but I agreed with insofar as idolatry. We followed that to the letter - none was to be found.

That's one reason the South was called the Bible Belt: no "picking-and-choosing" which verses to follow and which to toss to the side.:P

In other words, no hypocrisy. There wasn't any "listen to the preacher rail against drunkeness, then go and buy a six-pack of beer".:lol:

I was puzzled, but I agreed with insofar as idolatry. We followed that to the letter - none was to be found.

topsemag55

That's one reason the South was called the Bible Belt: no "picking-and-choosing" which verses to follow and which to toss to the side.:P

In other words, no hypocrisy. There wasn't any "listen to the preacher rail against drunkeness, then go and buy a six-pack of beer".:lol:

topsemag55

I think though that they went to extremes as to avoid hypocrisy. In the end they are just trying to avoid anything that could be labeled as hypocrisy. But that doesnt mean its really hypocrisy. I mean I am sure for them an allegoric approach to parts of the Bible is hypocritical but avoiding it doesnt mean they have avoided something that is really hypocritical. Same with the supposed hypocrisy of idolatry of the Catholics.

What I meant was the churches I went to had a strict policy of no idolatry, I agreed with you that idolatry in any form is wrong - at least I gathered from what you posted that you considered idolatry to be wrong.

I guess there might be some that do have some form of idolatry, but speaking just for myself, I cannot make a judgment (even if I disagree), as it's not my place. That's just me.:P

What I meant was the churches I went to had a strict policy of no idolatry, I agreed with you that idolatry in any form is wrong - at least I gathered from what you posted that you considered idolatry to be wrong.

I guess there might be some that do have some form of idolatry, but speaking just for myself, I cannot make a judgment (even if I disagree), as it's not my place. That's just me.:P

topsemag55

The reason why idolatry has a bad name imo is because the actual idolatrous religions of the past millenia also had other practices (if I remember correctly) that are kind of inhumane/brutal. So it became sort of common practice to connect the two necessarily even subliminally. And also Christianity tried in the times of the Byzantine Empire to distinguish itself from the rest of the religions that existed then (or even now) and thats why they probably emphasised on the parts of the Bible that allowed them to achieve that distinction and "distance". Perhaps thats not the only reason but I still think it is one.

It may seem funny *slash* ridiculous (for instance when I heard the story of people cutting small pieces out of the shard of the cross because they though it had healing properties or whatever) but there's really nothing wrong with it since it isnt even actual idolatry.

Like I said sects who try to avoid it, dont actually avoid idolatry, they just avoid something that could be labeled as idolatry in which case to me it seems that they are just trying to reserve the fame that they are not supposedly distorting the word of God while in reality they are the ones who allow the wordly ways (in this case the criticism of some that images and crosses in church is a form of idolatry) to affect their practices.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]The definition of idolatry most definitely wouldnt have to be extracted from the Biblical text. Idolatry isnt defined by Christianity, it is defined by historical knowledge of the subject of idolatry.

Teenaged

He he he. We can leave that to you conscience.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not necessarily true. Every culture has specific meanings to words which may not translate exact. Anyway, the commandment was against false idols in other words...worshiping other than God. Which is the context in which we are discussing this thread.

Gardenpath

He he he. We can leave that to you conscience.

Sorry 'your conscience'

Just messing about.

In my initial post I actually said that I dont find anything wrong with idolatry necessarily, both in the broad (not formal/actual) sense or the actual sense. But since we can only say that some sects practice it only in the broad sense I definitely find nothing wrong with it, be it the worshipping of holy people through objects or the worshipping of symbols such as the cross (to whatever level we can say that they worship the actual material cross though).

The reason why idolatry has a bad name imo is because the actual idolatrous religions of the past millenia also had other practices (if I remember correctly) that are kind of inhumane/brutal. So it became sort of common practice to connect the two necessarily even subliminally. And also Christianity tried in the times of the Byzantine Empire to distinguish itself from the rest of the religions that existed then (or even now) and thats why they probably emphasised on the parts of the Bible that allowed them to achieve that distinction and "distance". Perhaps thats not the only reason but I still think it is one.

It may seem funny *slash* ridiculous (for instance when I heard the story of people cutting small pieces out of the shard of the cross because they though it had healing properties or whatever) but there's really nothing wrong with it since it isnt even actual idolatry.

Like I said sects who try to avoid it, dont actually avoid idolatry, they just avoid something that could be labeled as idolatry in which case to me it seems that they are just trying to reserve the fame that they are not supposedly distorting the word of God while in reality they are the ones who allow the wordly ways (in this case the criticism of some that images and crosses in church is a form of idolatry) to affect their practices.

Teenaged

It wasn't made to be a big deal where I was. No one mentioned it, it was just not done. Moses and afterward the Hebrews had the Ark of the Covenant, but it was not worshipped either. Oddly enough, the pastors/preachers I heard sermons from didn't attack anyone who had what could be considered idolatry. Maybe I was fortunate not to be in one of those judgmental churches.

The pastors I had told us not to look down upon anybody. A rare thing, I guess.:)

Is going to church committing idoltary?

What? :?

No it's not. I'm not even going to provide a link, because you should research before you post something you're completely ignorant about.

Oh yes, they do that and I hated it when I was at my school. The nuns always said that we should kneel to an image of the cross; I thought that was the most stupid thing to do and always said a lie about my knees so I shouldn't kneel. Miroku32

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

In my initial post I actually said that I dont find anything wrong with idolatry necessarily, both in the broad (not formal/actual) sense or the actual sense. But since we can only say that some sects practice it only in the broad sense I definitely find nothing wrong with it, be it the worshipping of holy people through objects or the worshipping of symbols such as the cross (to whatever level we can say that they worship the actual material cross though).

The reason why idolatry has a bad name imo is because the actual idolatrous religions of the past millenia also had other practices (if I remember correctly) that are kind of inhumane/brutal. So it became sort of common practice to connect the two necessarily even subliminally. And also Christianity tried in the times of the Byzantine Empire to distinguish itself from the rest of the religions that existed then (or even now) and thats why they probably emphasised on the parts of the Bible that allowed them to achieve that distinction and "distance". Perhaps thats not the only reason but I still think it is one.

It may seem funny *slash* ridiculous (for instance when I heard the story of people cutting small pieces out of the shard of the cross because they though it had healing properties or whatever) but there's really nothing wrong with it since it isnt even actual idolatry.

Like I said sects who try to avoid it, dont actually avoid idolatry, they just avoid something that could be labeled as idolatry in which case to me it seems that they are just trying to reserve the fame that they are not supposedly distorting the word of God while in reality they are the ones who allow the wordly ways (in this case the criticism of some that images and crosses in church is a form of idolatry) to affect their practices.

topsemag55

It wasn't made to be a big deal where I was. No one mentioned it, it was just not done. Moses and afterward the Hebrews had the Ark of the Covenant, but it was not worshipped either. Oddly enough, the pastors/preachers I heard sermons from didn't attack anyone who had what could be considered idolatry. Maybe I was fortunate not to be in one of those judgmental churches.

The pastors I had told us not to look down upon anybody. A rare thing, I guess.:)

Not that I am saying that that immediately applies pressure to other churches or that implicitely or explicitely it constitutes a slap to those who do have images or symbols but just find the reason for this strange and a bit on the extreme side. Surely not harmful like other extreme practices in which case I guess it is just strange.

EDITED PS: And the truth is that it would be a nice change to have churches with less images and wall-paintings and the like. Our churches are like the essence of baroque. :P

The cross is symbolic. We don't pray TO it.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]The definition of idolatry most definitely wouldnt have to be extracted from the Biblical text. Idolatry isnt defined by Christianity, it is defined by historical knowledge of the subject of idolatry.

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Miroku32"]Oh yes, they do that and I hated it when I was at my school. The nuns always said that we should kneel to an image of the cross; I thought that was the most stupid thing to do and always said a lie about my knees so I shouldn't kneel. JudgementEden

Most certainly not. Catholics do not worship nor pray to idols and therefore do not commit idolatry.

Then again the cross is the symbol of the lord jesus christ himself.

whitetiger3521

No, it's not. The Cross as an icon is another Catholic heresey. Thousands died on the cross, not just Christ. If Christ was electrocuted, would you wear an electric-chair chain around you neck? Of course you wouldn't.

The crucifix is merely a representation of God in visual form. And the saints are merely the embodiment of God's teachings in human form. I see no idolatry that violates the commandment. I personally believe that the commandment was originally designed as a means of countering pagan rituals that involved fetishes or idol-based worship. In Catholicism, it isn't the physical idol that is worshiped, but the thing it represents. Much like statues of Buddha in Buddhism.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not necessarily true. Every culture has specific meanings to words which may not translate exact. Anyway, the commandment was against false idols in other words...worshiping other than God. Which is the context in which we are discussing this thread.

LJS9502_basic

I didnt disagree with your definition, I disagreed with the other person you were talking to who implied that it should be adequate to define idolatry based on the Biblical text...

I think the church is walking on treacherous ground by giving Mary such a large amount of respect/praise, but I don't think they're guilty of perpetual idolatry-- just a few borderline violations. I'm kind of sickened by it, but it is still a christian denomination. Even though their Bible has more books than the protestant one, it's a church that seems largely focused on following the legacy of Christ.

The crucifix is merely a representation of God in visual form. And the saints are merely the embodiment of God's teachings in human form. I see no idolatry that violates the commandment. I personally believe that the commandment was originally designed as a means of countering pagan rituals that involved fetishes or idol-based worship. In Catholicism, it isn't the physical idol that is worshiped, but the thing it represents. Much like statues of Buddha in Buddhism.

foxhound_fox

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I The Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My Commandments"

There's a reason the Bible doesn't tell us what Christ looks like: He doesn't want people worshipping an image, even of him. The Catholics think the cross is a proxy, but it isn't.

How many times have you heard people say "I worship at the foot of the cross?" I don't, I worship at the foot of my savior.

Yes it is clear idolatry. whats worse is when they pray to statues of Jesus or of Saints. Silenthps

Funny. I've never heard of a Catholic praying to statues.

Pretty much everything the Catholic Church does is blasphemous according to the Bible, so yes.

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)