Is the roman catholic church commiting idolatry?

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)

yourmajesty90

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

Pretty much everything the Catholic Church does is blasphemous according to the Bible, so yes.

73X

[QUOTE="yourmajesty90"]

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)

coolbeans90

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest with their hands when they pray.

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)

yourmajesty90

No, they aren't...i don't know how you people are coming to this conclusion..people do not literally pray TO the cross..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

No, they pray THROUGH it, which is still idolatry. The use it basically like a telephone or something.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="yourmajesty90"]

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)

br0kenrabbit

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest when their hands when they pray.

This and I quoted from the Bible too. Saints are like Gods and people pray to them rather than God.

Here's a good article. Blasphemy, plain and simple.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="yourmajesty90"]

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)

br0kenrabbit

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest when their hands when they pray.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]No, they aren't...i don't know how you people are coming to this conclusion..people do not literally pray TO the cross..

br0kenrabbit

No, they pray THROUGH it, which is still idolatry. The use it basically like a telephone or something.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

yourmajesty90

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest when their hands when they pray.

This and I quoted from the Bible too. Saints are like Gods and people pray to them rather than God.

[QUOTE="73X"]

Pretty much everything the Catholic Church does is blasphemous according to the Bible, so yes.

Xx_Hopeless_xX

A lot of the things Catholics do are not Christian.

Prayer candles, praying to saints, 'Mother of God' = Church of Baal

Easter = The celebration of Ēostre (A goddess)

Christmas = Just read this:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="yourmajesty90"]

It actually is. The cross, the much common symbol, is an example. People pray to it, as if Jesus himself is in it. Also, the statues to the various saints are a form of idolatry.
The worship of an image is idolatry, also God abhors the use of idols as written in Exodus 20:3-4 "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
So statues and the cross are idols or forms of it.
(Yes, people will hate me for this)

br0kenrabbit

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest with their hands when they pray.

Prayer to saints is not worship.

The point of imagery serves no purpose other than as a reminder. That does not serve as an idol.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]No, they aren't...i don't know how you people are coming to this conclusion..people do not literally pray TO the cross..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

No, they pray THROUGH it, which is still idolatry. The use it basically like a telephone or something.

The Bible says you shouldn't pray through anything, for God is a living God.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

coolbeans90

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest with their hands when they pray.

Prayer to saints is not worship.

The point of imagery serves no purpose other than as a reminder. That does not serve as an idol.

yes it is because the saints are dead and according to the Bible, the dead cannot even praise the lord (because they sleep). So you're praying to dead people, which according to the Bible is necromancy.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

coolbeans90

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest with their hands when they pray.

Prayer to saints is not worship.

The point of imagery serves no purpose other than as a reminder. That does not serve as an idol.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest when their hands when they pray.

The Trinity isn't Biblical. Find it in the Bible...you won't. Not even once.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="73X"]

Pretty much everything the Catholic Church does is blasphemous according to the Bible, so yes.

br0kenrabbit

A lot of the things Catholics do are not Christian.

Prayer candles, praying to saints, 'Mother of God' = Church of Baal

Easter = The celebration of Ēostre (A goddess)

Christmas = Just read this:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest when their hands when they pray.

br0kenrabbit

The Trinity isn't Biblical. Find it in the Bible...you won't. Not even once.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Except Catholics do NOT worship those images or statues...

yourmajesty90

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest when their hands when they pray.

This and I quoted from the Bible too. Saints are like Gods and people pray to them rather than God.

Prayer to the saints is similar to how people will talk to each othe and ask for help occaisonally, and ask others to pray for them instead of only speaking to God. It's not worship. Your perception is terribly misconstrued.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

No, they pray THROUGH it, which is still idolatry. The use it basically like a telephone or something.

br0kenrabbit

The Bible says you shouldn't pray through anything, for God is a living God.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I The Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My Commandments"

There's a reason the Bible doesn't tell us what Christ looks like: He doesn't want people worshipping an image, even of him. The Catholics think the cross is a proxy, but it isn't.

How many times have you heard people say "I worship at the foot of the cross?" I don't, I worship at the foot of my savior.

br0kenrabbit

I'm sorry, I thought The Bible constituted said "guidelines"...

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

Catholics pray to saints, that's idolatry in and of itself.

The representation of something as an image of God is forbidden, and you can't say the Catholics don't sport the crucifix everywhere. They even make an image of the cross across their chest with their hands when they pray.

73X

Prayer to saints is not worship.

The point of imagery serves no purpose other than as a reminder. That does not serve as an idol.

First of all, prayer to saints should be considered no different than speaking to them. Not worship, which many seem to believe. Prayer to God is another, greater sort of communication. Why ever speak to friends and family, and ask them to pray for you?

I'm sorry, I thought The Bible constituted said "guidelines"...

73X

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"] Praying through something is different then praying TO something and worshiping that object like a god..Xx_Hopeless_xX

The Bible says you shouldn't pray through anything, for God is a living God.

As well as reading the Bible. I mean the Bible is the word of God for a reason. And it must be read to expand that faith. It's a guide to life basically. It isn't there for nothing.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

The Bible says you shouldn't pray through anything, for God is a living God.

yourmajesty90

As well as reading the Bible. I mean the Bible is the word of God for a reason. And it must be read to expand that faith. It's a guide to life basically. It isn't there for nothing.

Here's a good article. Blasphemy, plain and simple.

73X

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]So we are not to respond to the TC with the actual meaning of the word idolatry as is defined regardless of one's religious convictions and how those define idolatry?

Teenaged

I didnt disagree with your definition, I disagreed with the other person you were talking to who implied that it should be adequate to define idolatry based on the Biblical text...

What what what?

I assume you are refering to me. You might want to go back and have another look at what I said.

I was suggesting that a pastor I once knew would define idolatary based on biblical text. Can you blame the fellow? Some people believe the bible is the 'word of God' etc.

As for me I Xlfd wedhd .k,gj... don't have an opinion

Not reading The Bible is exactly why most Catholics don't know what they're doing is wrong. The RCC seems to take what they like from The Bible, put their own twist on it, and discard the rest. Read the article I linked to in one of my previous posts.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I copied the actual meaning of idolatry. You took exception to it....*shrugs*Gardenpath

I didnt disagree with your definition, I disagreed with the other person you were talking to who implied that it should be adequate to define idolatry based on the Biblical text...

What what what?

I assume you are refering to me. You might want to go back and have another look at what I said.

I was suggesting that a pastor I once knew would define idolatary based on biblical text. Can you blame the fellow? Some people believe the bible is the 'word of God' etc.

As for me I Xlfd wedhd .k,gj... don't have an opinion

That's exactly why most Catholics don't know what they're doing is wrong. The RCC seems to take what they like from The Bible, put their own twist on it, and discard the rest. Read the article I linked to in one of my previous posts.

73X

[QUOTE="73X"]

That's exactly why most Catholics don't know what they're doing is wrong. The RCC seems to take what they like from The Bible, put their own twist on it, and discard the rest. Read the article I linked to in one of my previous posts.

LJS9502_basic

Lol, Wow. You don't Pray to the Cross. You're equating something symbolic to Jesus's death to a Golden Calf or Money. :lol: I can't even.

[ Please elaborate. What exactly is false about the points the man made?73X

In regard to other children....brethern does not inherently mean siblings.

His ideas about purgatory...not correct.

Transubstantiation is NOT literaly physical change.

As for this...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, NOTE the use of bowing before and serving something other than God..

OTHER THAN GOD.....which is what is wrong...not using a symbol to think about God.

As for works....there is much more involved in salvation. Obviously this man is not familiar with the Catholic faith at all.

Ok well i don't see anyone worshiping the tree by decking it with silver and gold...Easter is the worship of Christ's resurrection and mother of God is Mary...Xx_Hopeless_xX

But the point is that Christmas is a heathen traditions, and the Bible specifically speaks against such traditions, whether or not it is a form of worship. Easter is the celebration of the goddess of the same name. These are pagan rituals which were incorporated into the Catholic Church (against Biblical doctrine) in order to bring more worshippers in. All the Catholics did was replace the central figures.

Catholics also venerate Mary as having a part in mans redemption, and this is not so. Mary is sinful and dead just like everyone else, and they all sleep until the ressurrection. If Mary had no Sin, then we'd have no need for a savoir because she would be it. She isn't, and she herself confessed her need for a savior.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]Ok well i don't see anyone worshiping the tree by decking it with silver and gold...Easter is the worship of Christ's resurrection and mother of God is Mary...br0kenrabbit

But the point is that Christmas is a heathen traditions, and the Bible specifically speaks against such traditions, whether or not it is a form of worship. Easter is the celebration of the goddess of the same name. These are pagan rituals which were incorporated into the Catholic Church (against Biblical doctrine) in order to bring more worshippers in. All the Catholics did was replace the central figures.

Catholics also venerate Mary as having a part in mans redemption, and this is not so. Mary is sinful and dead just like everyone else, and they all sleep until the ressurrection. If Mary had no Sin, then we'd have no need for a savoir because she would be it. She isn't, and she herself confessed her need for a savior.

And no..Catholics don't believe Mary has a part in mans redemption. That would be Jesus. As for sin....I don't think anyone here can answer that. Not that is the important aspect of her character anyway.

Matthew 16 13-20 "You are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

In regard to other children....brethern does not inherently mean siblings.

LJS9502_basic

That does not make Peter 'The Pope of the Catholic Church'. Understand that the Catholic Church did not exist for hundreds of years after the crucifiction. In fact, the Bibles definition of a Church is a congregation, not an institution.

Further, the original language makes it clear that Jesus had biological half-brothers and half-sisters. It's only after transcribing the scriptures into Latin (or English) one could make a case that 'brethern' doesn't mean biological realtions, but the original languages makes it clear that they were indeed his brothers and sisters.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Matthew 16 13-20 "You are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

In regard to other children....brethern does not inherently mean siblings.

br0kenrabbit

That does not make Peter 'The Pope of the Catholic Church'. Understand that the Catholic Church did not exist for hundreds of years after the crucifiction. In fact, the Bibles definition of a Church is a congregation, not an institution.

Further, the original language makes it clear that Jesus had biological half-brothers and half-sisters. It's only after transcribing the scriptures into Latin (or English) one could make a case that 'brethern' doesn't mean biological realtions, but the original languages makes it clear that they were indeed his brothers and sisters.

But the celebration is NOT heathen. When attempting to convert people..it's a good idea to give them something else to celebrate and NOT just take away a holiday from them.

And no..Catholics don't believe Mary has a part in mans redemption. That would be Jesus. As for sin....I don't think anyone here can answer that. Not that is the important aspect of her character anyway.

LJS9502_basic

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

It is Scripture evidence and oldest Church tradition which tell us about Mary's involvement in Redemption: as mother of Jesus and Theotokos, as disciple of her Son and associate in his salvific work. Maria Assumpta is forever an active part in the ongoing history of salvation. This is the reason why we turn to her for encouragement (she is the mother of all) and help (she is our model in faith).

Do you think prayer before the cross is considered Idolatry?

Idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:

• the worship of idols (or images)
• the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
• the worship of animals or people
• the use of idols in the worship of God.

Then again the cross is the symbol of the lord jesus christ himself. But considering the fact that there is no concrete proof that jesus did actually die on the cross see Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree." and 1peter 2:24 "who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed."

No matter what your religion is I would like to hear your view of the prayer before the cross and the use of the cross altogether.

whitetiger3521

Yes.. I believe they are idolaters, and not just because of the cross. I think all of the Virgin Mary statues are examples of idolatry. The symbol of the cross was around in religious practices long before Jesus. The church adopted the cross as a symbol. The actual translation from the Bible means "tree" or "post." Romans were not known for using actual crosses for execution at that point in history. They used "stakes." Straight up and down posts on which the person being executed was nailed. Hands above the head, feet below. No cross-beam.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] But the celebration is NOT heathen. When attempting to convert people..it's a good idea to give them something else to celebrate and NOT just take away a holiday from them.

And no..Catholics don't believe Mary has a part in mans redemption. That would be Jesus. As for sin....I don't think anyone here can answer that. Not that is the important aspect of her character anyway.

br0kenrabbit

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

It is Scripture evidence and oldest Church tradition which tell us about Mary's involvement in Redemption: as mother of Jesus and Theotokos, as disciple of her Son and associate in his salvific work. Maria Assumpta is forever an active part in the ongoing history of salvation. This is the reason why we turn to her for encouragement (she is the mother of all) and help (she is our model in faith).

I don't see how that scripture supports the use of a statue of Mary in Christian worship.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] But the celebration is NOT heathen. When attempting to convert people..it's a good idea to give them something else to celebrate and NOT just take away a holiday from them.

And no..Catholics don't believe Mary has a part in mans redemption. That would be Jesus. As for sin....I don't think anyone here can answer that. Not that is the important aspect of her character anyway.

br0kenrabbit

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

It is Scripture evidence and oldest Church tradition which tell us about Mary's involvement in Redemption: as mother of Jesus and Theotokos, as disciple of her Son and associate in his salvific work. Maria Assumpta is forever an active part in the ongoing history of salvation. This is the reason why we turn to her for encouragement (she is the mother of all) and help (she is our model in faith).

In the end, I don't see why people condemn Catholics for being idolatrous, when they were the earliest established sect of the Christian faith, and established these practices long before Protestantism was even on the horizon. And they are happy with what they are doing, and feel as if they are gaining some benefit from practicing these rituals.

foxhound_fox

Catholics sure condemn (and used to burn) other people for being idolatrous, so why should we throw our hands when it comes to the Catholics themselves? And by Catholics I mean the institution, the Church, all gilded in Gold (stolen gold, most gold in Catholic churches was taken from the New World).

And the oldest form of Christianity is not Catholisism, its Jewish Christianity, which I adhere to more than any other form of Christianity.

The Catholic Church didn't take its current form until the Byzantine Empire, and then it was (and is) mostly a political institition.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]Ok well i don't see anyone worshiping the tree by decking it with silver and gold...Easter is the worship of Christ's resurrection and mother of God is Mary...br0kenrabbit

But the point is that Christmas is a heathen traditions, and the Bible specifically speaks against such traditions, whether or not it is a form of worship. Easter is the celebration of the goddess of the same name. These are pagan rituals which were incorporated into the Catholic Church (against Biblical doctrine) in order to bring more worshippers in. All the Catholics did was replace the central figures.

Catholics also venerate Mary as having a part in mans redemption, and this is not so. Mary is sinful and dead just like everyone else, and they all sleep until the ressurrection. If Mary had no Sin, then we'd have no need for a savoir because she would be it. She isn't, and she herself confessed her need for a savior.

I don't see any scriptural support for your argument here.....

LJS9502_basic

I'll make it simple for you: Christians aren't suppose to participate in the celebrations and traditions of man. We're suppose to be 'apart from the world'. That's why it says in the verse above that the traditions of man are vain. Early Christians didn't even celebrate birthdays!

Following a heathen tradition by 'going through the motiions' is just as much blasphemey as actually worshipping heathen gods. That's what that verse is about...DON'T FOLLOW THEIR TRADITIONS!

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I don't see any scriptural support for your argument here.....

br0kenrabbit

I'll make it simple for you: Christians aren't suppose to participate in the celebrations and traditions of man. We're suppose to be 'apart from the world'. That's why it says in the verse above that the traditions of man are vain. Early Christians didn't even celebrate birthdays!

Following a heathen tradition by 'going through the motiions' is just as much blasphemey as actually worshipping heathen gods. That's what that verse is about...DON'T FOLLOW THEIR TRADITIONS!

Catholics sure condemn (and used to burn) other people for being idolatrous, so why should we throw our hands when it comes to the Catholics themselves? And by Catholics I mean the institution, the Church, all gilded in Gold (stolen gold, most gold in Catholic churches was taken from the New World).

And the oldest form of Christianity is not Catholisism, its Jewish Christianity, which I adhere to more than any other form of Christianity.

The Catholic Church didn't take its current form until the Byzantine Empire, and then it was (and is) mostly a political institition.

br0kenrabbit