Islam isnt what the west percieves it to be....

Jihad means to struggle.Parents struggle to educate their children is a type of Jihad.One's inner struggle to control his urges is a Jihad (Jihad bin Nafs). If an islamic state is assaulted then, if muslims struggle and fight for the defense of Islam, then it is Jihad. However, muslims are not allowed to begin hostilities in any manner.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.(Quran 2:190)

So it's like allowing muslims to fight, in case they are attacked. An example, if USA is attacked and it's army defends the nation and fight back, are they wrong?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Link1515"]

 

You are right--the Crusades were carried out by-said 'Christians'. But during that time they misused the Bible and claimed everything to be in God's name, and stated that "God wills it"--and so they carried it out.  

Link1515

Why then were the Crusades carried out for just a short short period of time, while "Jihad" has been praticed, in the sense of extremist bombings and killings of innocent people, for centuries and centuries? 

Jihad means to struggle.Parents struggle to educate their children is a type of Jihad.One's inner struggle to control his urges is a Jihad (Jihad bin Nafs). If an islamic state is assaulted then, if muslims struggle and fight for the defense of Islam, then it is Jihad. However, muslims are not allowed to begin hostilities in any manner.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.(Quran 2:190)

So it's like allowing muslims to fight, in case they are attacked. An example, if USA is attacked and it's army defends the nation and fight back, are they wrong?

MFaraz_Hayat

That answers what "Jihad" is in a greater context, but it doesn't answer why suicide bombings are not Jihad. If a group like Bin Laden's infamous network really believes that the West as a whole is invading their homeland somehow, and they responded with fighting in the only real way available to them (i.e. suicide bombings or terrorism in general), what makes that "not Jihad" for their purposes. At least from their perspective, they aren't the ones in that case who initiated violence.

My point isn't to equate those, btw. My point is that it isn't JUST the Western media that makes that association. It is a faction of Islam itself proclaiming it openly in Fatwas designed to make this association very clear.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Link1515"]

 

You are right--the Crusades were carried out by-said 'Christians'. But during that time they misused the Bible and claimed everything to be in God's name, and stated that "God wills it"--and so they carried it out.  

Link1515

Why then were the Crusades carried out for just a short short period of time, while "Jihad" has been praticed, in the sense of extremist bombings and killings of innocent people, for centuries and centuries? 

[QUOTE="M1MyRifle"][QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"]How does that tell which countries allow women to vote and which dont?:?Thinker_reborn

Are Religious Leaders elected? No they are not, so if a country claims to be an "islamic state" then no one has the right to vote, and it is in these countries where women are oppressed the most.  

Women DO vote over here.

Pakistan is an example of an unstable country, military leaders taking power through coup d etat's happens quite often.  Musharraf, who left office this year, was in power since 1999 through a military coup.  They still have a long way to go before they can claim to be a stable democracy.  And in Pakistan has some autonomous regions who still practice sharia law, and there are still numerous cases of honor killings coming from Pakistan annually, and the acid attack also happened there.  

[QUOTE="Link1515"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Ah yes, because Christianity never had any holy wars like the Crusades right? Stop making generalizations.-Sun_Tzu-

You are right--the Crusades were carried out by-said 'Christians'. But during that time they misused the Bible and claimed everything to be in God's name, and stated that "God wills it"--and so they carried it out.

[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"]

Jihad means to struggle.Parents struggle to educate their children is a type of Jihad.One's inner struggle to control his urges is a Jihad (Jihad bin Nafs). If an islamic state is assaulted then, if muslims struggle and fight for the defense of Islam, then it is Jihad. However, muslims are not allowed to begin hostilities in any manner.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.(Quran 2:190)

So it's like allowing muslims to fight, in case they are attacked. An example, if USA is attacked and it's army defends the nation and fight back, are they wrong?

m0zart

That answers what "Jihad" is in a greater context, but it doesn't answer why suicide bombings are not Jihad. If a group like Bin Laden's infamous network really believes that the West as a whole is invading their homeland somehow, and they responded with fighting in the only real way available to them (i.e. suicide bombings or terrorism in general), what makes that "not Jihad" for their purposes. At least from their perspective, they aren't the ones in that case who initiated violence.

My point isn't to equate those, btw. My point is that it isn't JUST the Western media that makes that association. It is a faction of Islam itself proclaiming it openly in Fatwas designed to make this association very clear.

[QUOTE="thattotally"]And no punishment is harsh for a crime. If it will stop people doing it, then hello, where's the problem... See, I understand that there's a lot of poor people in the world (I blame YOU people [generalizations GALORE] for this, due to acts of adultery and premarital sex, as well as the fact that you JUST CAN'T HOLD IT IN FOR 5 MINUTES!) but a crime is a crime. And even in Islam we have grey areas. But that's more due to how our "scholars" tend to interpret Islamic law, the Quran, and the words of Prophet Mohammed.m0zart

No punishment is too harsh for a crime? Seriously? That is in and of itself an unrealistic statement.

Your original example of "stealing an apple" not leading to the cutting off of hands seems rather wasted after hearing that. Were you able to make that disassociation to the cruelty of the punishment only because you don't think apple stealing is a big problem in general? If apple stealing were more common, are you saying that cutting off the hands of apple stealers wouldn't be too harsh? What about life in prison without parole? What about... execution?

Is there no concept in Islam of the punishment fitting the individual severity of the crime? Is it always based on the means to the end based on a collectivist judgement of all thiefdom rather than the justifiability of the action based on the degree of the individual crime?

Oh sorry my bad. I should have mentioned that the last part was my opinion. I've lead a bit of a harsh and bitter life, so if you'll excuse me for being sllightly unforgiving on the world, for it's only my own experiences that leads me to seeing many things in a negative light.  And not the veiws from Islam specifically.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Link1515"]

You are right--the Crusades were carried out by-said 'Christians'. But during that time they misused the Bible and claimed everything to be in God's name, and stated that "God wills it"--and so they carried it out.

dsmccracken

Very true. 

They depict an unrecognizable man with an evil persona around him. He walks into a bustling market place, and then quickly reveals a bomb under his shirt, and boom. The screen goes to black with red letters saying, (roughly translated) "terrorists. No religion from them. No mercy." It basically means that these people have no religion, and they will be the first to go to hell. This is because suicide is a very serious matter in Islam, and it is one of the things that will get you an automatic tiket to hell should you achieve it. 

Jihad is an old term that really shouldn't be needed to use anymore. This is b/c ideally, there should be no wars. Jihad means muslims laying down their life to protect their religion, home, etc. Not what the "western media" perpetuates for high ratings and whatever. And no we'd never target schools, women and children or other, even if they're from "the enemy". I don't know where any of you would get such an idea.

I couldn't post this originally since I got moderated with a warning before a certain mod let me type out my response to what I was going to say. Very unjust. I knew coming to this topic would cause me problems...

I couldn't post this originally since I got moderated with a warning before a certain mod let me type out my response to what I was going to say. Very unjust. I knew coming to this topic would cause me problems...

thattotally

Please go to Ask the Mods to ask about your moderation. Just to make this clear though, your moderation wasn't for any opinions you've expressed in defending Islam. It was for an act that we consider to be a rather cut and dry instance of generic trolling.

Killing of innocents is not allowed in Islam. Do you know how illogical it is, to actually blame Islam for this. For example, if I go out of my house, kill people using grenades and say that I am following Jesus (PBUH) footsteps(by killing innocents). You will obviously say that I am a bloody liar , for Jesus's message was to be good to all. Now if some nutters, go about killing innocents and use Islam as an excuse, why in the name of stupid hell, are people criticizing Islam? I ask you to bring verses from Quran advocating the killing of innocents! MFaraz_Hayat

Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.Choga

Even though I am muslim, Amen, :P 

Also m0zart, I'd like to tell you about the numerous commercials we have here in the Middle East. Well, they really shouldn't be called commercials though. For the sake of typing quickly, I won't go into detail about them, but I'll give you the gist of them:

They depict an unrecognizable man with an evil persona around him. He walks into a bustling market place, and then quickly reveals a bomb under his shirt, and boom. The screen goes to black with red letters saying, (roughly translated) "terrorists. No religion from them. No mercy." It basically means that these people have no religion, and they will be the first to go to hell. This is because suicide is a very serious matter in Islam, and it is one of the things that will get you an automatic tiket to hell should you achieve it. 

Jihad is an old term that really shouldn't be needed to use anymore. This is b/c ideally, there should be no wars. Jihad means muslims laying down their life to protect their religion, home, etc. Not what the "western media" perpetuates for high ratings and whatever. And no we'd never target schools, women and children or other, even if they're from "the enemy". I don't know where any of you would get such an idea.

I couldn't post this originally since I got moderated with a warning before a certain mod let me type out my response to what I was going to say. Very unjust. I knew coming to this topic would cause me problems...

thattotally

[QUOTE="thattotally"]And no punishment is harsh for a crime. If it will stop people doing it, then hello, where's the problem... See, I understand that there's a lot of poor people in the world (I blame YOU people [generalizations GALORE] for this, due to acts of adultery and premarital sex, as well as the fact that you JUST CAN'T HOLD IT IN FOR 5 MINUTES!) but a crime is a crime. And even in Islam we have grey areas. But that's more due to how our "scholars" tend to interpret Islamic law, the Quran, and the words of Prophet Mohammed.m0zart

No punishment is too harsh for a crime? Seriously? That is in and of itself an unrealistic statement.

Your original example of "stealing an apple" not leading to the cutting off of hands seems rather wasted after hearing that. Were you able to make that disassociation to the cruelty of the punishment only because you don't think apple stealing is a big problem in general? If apple stealing were more common, are you saying that cutting off the hands of apple stealers wouldn't be too harsh? What about life in prison without parole? What about... execution?

Is there no concept in Islam of the punishment fitting the individual severity of the crime? Is it always based on the means to the end based on a collectivist judgement of all thiefdom rather than the justifiability of the action based on the degree of the individual crime?

Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.Choga

Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.Choga

I think some people here are trying to tie this into a defense of or comparison to Christianity and Judaism. I have no idea why -- that's not what this thread was about.

This is about the impression that Westerners have of Islam, and the source of that impression. It is a typical "class of values" thread.

One thing.....when an attack of some kind is carried on against the US....we see the news videos of Middle Eastern countries which would be predominately Muslim cheering and burning our flag. LJS9502_basic

There is a fixed rule on the cutting of the hand that if the person has stolen more than x worth of material than they are subject to that punishment.Thinker_reborn

Right, and I am saying that punishment is extreme and unreasonable. "God says so" doesn't really make it any more reasonable to me.

How do you know what I think Islam is? Are you generalizing everyone in western culture?LJS9502_basic

Your post was generalizing what I said...

[QUOTE="M1MyRifle"]

Islam has a bad reputation for a reason, I'm not trying to villify the religion but what islam has become is just frightening. There is only one secular predominantly islamic country and that is turkey and they have their problem with extremeists.

Islam along with most of organized religion, represents regression, hostility towards diversity and blatant ignorance. I don't have a problem with someone practicing religion, but when it spills out into government and politics is when i have a problem with it. Secularization is the way to go.

mlbslugger86

exactly, its like they stone people if they commit a crime or punish women if they cheat on their husband..no offense to islam but that thinking is way to old, get modern, and also, a secular government is a good idea...will they ever do it? i doubt it

[QUOTE="Choga"]Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.LJS9502_basic

By "Christian churches" which churches do you mean? It may not be recent, but I recall the catholic church waging a series of Crusades to retake the holy land. Furthermore, I am not "blaming" any religion, I am simply saying that the Abrahamic religions have messages of peace AND violence, and this is an unavoidable fact. 

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]How do you know what I think Islam is? Are you generalizing everyone in western culture?Thinker_reborn

Your post was generalizing what I said...

[QUOTE="Choga"]Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"] Killing of innocents is not allowed in Islam. Do you know how illogical it is, to actually blame Islam for this. For example, if I go out of my house, kill people using grenades and say that I am following Jesus (PBUH) footsteps(by killing innocents). You will obviously say that I am a bloody liar , for Jesus's message was to be good to all. Now if some nutters, go about killing innocents and use Islam as an excuse, why in the name of stupid hell, are people criticizing Islam? I ask you to bring verses from Quran advocating the killing of innocents! LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Choga"]Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.m0zart

I think some people here are trying to tie this into a defense of or comparison to Christianity and Judaism. I have no idea why -- that's not what this thread was about.

This is about the impression that Westerners have of Islam, and the source of that impression. It is a typical "class of values" thread.

My post is relevant, so if you were not addressing my post specifically, then I apologize. The west's perception of Islam is flawed because they only look at the violent aspects of the religion, and not the religion as a whole, which is very similar to Christianity and Judaism, religions that are widely accepted by western society.

By "Christian churches" which churches do you mean? It may not be recent, but I recall the catholic church waging a series of Crusades to retake the holy land. Furthermore, I am not "blaming" any religion, I am simply saying that the Abrahamic religions have messages of peace AND violence, and this is an unavoidable fact.

Choga

I agree with the second half of your statement in particular. The first half is rather obviously true, but I think it constitutes a red herring for the purposes of this thread's original subject matter. The perception of Islam in the West is built more on recent history than something that happened half a millenium or more ago. Christianity has had more than one "renaissance" since that time, and the culture of Christianity has changed drastically.

I look back 100 years or so ago and I can marvel at how Islam seemed to be entering into a new age, a sort of "renaissance", but that trend reversed itself in the 20th Century, at least for the practice of the religion in the land of its origin. It could have been for many reasons -- maybe a lot of them had to do with the West, maybe even more had to do with things that have nothing to do with the West. In any case, the Moslem culture of Arabia and many other countries is in need of another renaissance of sorts -- an age of reason to help minimize the extremists and give Islam and Moslems as a whole a more comfortable place in the world.

[QUOTE="thattotally"]

I couldn't post this originally since I got moderated with a warning before a certain mod let me type out my response to what I was going to say. Very unjust. I knew coming to this topic would cause me problems...

m0zart

Please go to Ask the Mods to ask about your moderation. Just to make this clear though, your moderation wasn't for any opinions you've expressed in defending Islam. It was for an act that we consider to be a rather cut and dry instance of generic trolling.

Darn... and GameSpot has ruined my entire paragraph format... Tech support really needs to work out all the kinks huh? I don't know what they have against FireFox. I mean I'm not using the script editor when typing, for one thing. 

Anyway would you really call that "trolling" uncalled for? The certain user made no sense in his paragraph and was called up on it by other users as well on the page. Not to get you angry at me (and thus far modding me some more please  :?  ) but I was to post my initial response right under it to back up why I said that, for I could not believe that someone is apparently not only believing the propaganda being spewed out but labels them as truth. That would certainly get my temperature going, and with good reason, wouldn't you agree?

But I'm sorry, I really don't like to be a bad person... who gets modded. I'll take my leave right now to avoid getting into trouble. I just hope that these religion topics die out.

My post is relevant, so if you were not addressing my post specifically, then I apologize. The west's perception of Islam is flawed because they only look at the violent aspects of the religion, and not the religion as a whole, which is very similar to Christianity and Judaism, religions that are widely accepted by western society.

Choga

I wasn't actually referring to you in that post. I am referring to some other posts early on that tried to turn the thread into a Christianity vs. Islam thread rather than a thread about Western perceptions of Islam. The West is far more diverse than just Christianity or Judaism.

By "Christian churches" which churches do you mean? It may not be recent, but I recall the catholic church waging a series of Crusades to retake the holy land. Furthermore, I am not "blaming" any religion, I am simply saying that the Abrahamic religions have messages of peace AND violence, and this is an unavoidable fact.

Choga

[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="thattotally"]And no punishment is harsh for a crime. If it will stop people doing it, then hello, where's the problem... See, I understand that there's a lot of poor people in the world (I blame YOU people [generalizations GALORE] for this, due to acts of adultery and premarital sex, as well as the fact that you JUST CAN'T HOLD IT IN FOR 5 MINUTES!) but a crime is a crime. And even in Islam we have grey areas. But that's more due to how our "scholars" tend to interpret Islamic law, the Quran, and the words of Prophet Mohammed.thattotally

No punishment is too harsh for a crime? Seriously? That is in and of itself an unrealistic statement.

Your original example of "stealing an apple" not leading to the cutting off of hands seems rather wasted after hearing that. Were you able to make that disassociation to the cruelty of the punishment only because you don't think apple stealing is a big problem in general? If apple stealing were more common, are you saying that cutting off the hands of apple stealers wouldn't be too harsh? What about life in prison without parole? What about... execution?

Is there no concept in Islam of the punishment fitting the individual severity of the crime? Is it always based on the means to the end based on a collectivist judgement of all thiefdom rather than the justifiability of the action based on the degree of the individual crime?

Oh sorry my bad. I should have mentioned that the last part was my opinion. I've lead a bit of a harsh and bitter life, so if you'll excuse me for being sllightly unforgiving on the world, for it's only my own experiences that leads me to seeing many things in a negative light.  And not the veiws from Islam specifically.

All these people will have the same opinion when something terrible happens to them.If somebody stole a sizable part of your well hard earned money,if someobdy murdered your own child then come back and tell me how simpathetic you are willing to be.:roll: 

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"]

Now most muslims believe that if you dont believe in God and muhammad than you are going to hell just cuz of that.I personally dont believe in that and there really is no evidence of such a thing being true.

Thinker_reborn

The problem is that you are choosing to judge Islam by it's followers. Imagine, that if most christians of the world (though it's quite unlikely), turn to killing of non-christians, killing of women etc. , and a non-christian stands up and abuses Jesus(PBUH) for this, is he doing the right thing? The people who attacked the embassy etc. , to them I would like to tell that the Quraish used to abuse the Prophet, they used to torture him and his family, yet he responded in kindness (example is of Conquest of Mecca and many others). Why then, are they being violent when Prophet Muhammad himself, didn't choose to be so. Obviously muslims should protest, but there are other methods of protesting. Regarding the burning of flag etc. , it is because majority are against USA's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. MFaraz_Hayat

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Choga"]Just like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is filled with messages of peace AND war. I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal about "violence in Islam" when there is plenty of violence in Christianity and Judaism (especially the latter). These monotheistic religions are ment to give guidance and direction to all aspects of it's followers' lives, so naturally violence is included.C_BozkurT_C

[QUOTE="Choga"]

By "Christian churches" which churches do you mean? It may not be recent, but I recall the catholic church waging a series of Crusades to retake the holy land. Furthermore, I am not "blaming" any religion, I am simply saying that the Abrahamic religions have messages of peace AND violence, and this is an unavoidable fact.

LJS9502_basic

The fact that it's "old history" is irrelevant. Islamic empires were once on the forefront of technology and science, but I suppose that's "old history" so it doesn't really matter now because Islam is all about "Jihad". And my example of the Crusades was a response to you saying the Church doesn't wage war, which it obviously did. However, this is not my main point. My point is that all Abrahamic religions have both peace & violence in their teachings. 

Ya it's not your fault.

All these people will have the same opinion when something terrible happens to them.If somebody stole a sizable part of your well hard earned money,if someobdy murdered your own child then come back and tell me how simpathetic you are willing to be.:roll: Thinker_reborn

No I think he got it right the first time. Actually, nothing you said here impunes anything I said -- stealing an apple isn't comparable to murdering children. If you murder children, your punishment should fit that crime, whether or NOT it is a common problem in the country or a one time occurance. That punishment should be very severe because murdering children is a horrible act that robs them of their life forever in a brutal and horrific fashion.

On the other hand, stealing an apple is ALWAYS a minor crime. Even if we have a nationwide epidemic of quick-handed apple thieves, there should not be a severe punishment handed out to an individual who stole one apple simply because there are individuals out there who stole a lot.

Punishments should fit the crime, and that requires reason and judgement, not dicatation from a being of questioned existence brought to light by someone who offers no proof.

[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"] The problem is that you are choosing to judge Islam by it's followers. Imagine, that if most christians of the world (though it's quite unlikely), turn to killing of non-christians, killing of women etc. , and a non-christian stands up and abuses Jesus(PBUH) for this, is he doing the right thing? The people who attacked the embassy etc. , to them I would like to tell that the Quraish used to abuse the Prophet, they used to torture him and his family, yet he responded in kindness (example is of Conquest of Mecca and many others). Why then, are they being violent when Prophet Muhammad himself, didn't choose to be so. Obviously muslims should protest, but there are other methods of protesting. Regarding the burning of flag etc. , it is because majority are against USA's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"]Ya it's not your fault.

All these people will have the same opinion when something terrible happens to them.If somebody stole a sizable part of your well hard earned money,if someobdy murdered your own child then come back and tell me how simpathetic you are willing to be.:roll: m0zart

No I think he got it right the first time. Actually, nothing you said here impunes anything I said -- stealing an apple isn't comparable to murdering children. If you murder children, your punishment should fit that crime, whether or NOT it is a common problem in the country or a one time occurance. That punishment should be very severe because murdering children is a horrible act that robs them of their life forever in a brutal and horrific fashion.

On the other hand, stealing an apple is ALWAYS a minor crime. Even if we have a nationwide epidemic of quick-handed apple thieves, there should not be a severe punishment handed out to an individual who stole one apple simply because there are individuals out there who stole a lot.

Punishments should fit the crime, and that requires reason and judgement, not dicatation from a being of questioned existence brought to light by someone who offers no proof.

You do realize that punishments mentioned in the Quran, are given only after checking the circumstances, magnitude of crime etc. . And not handed out in case of doubt.MFaraz_Hayat

Sure I realize that. But the crux of my point is a little more piercing than that -- a list of punishments given out by a human being claiming to speak for God more than 1000 years ago are not a replacement for using our living brains here and now to figure out these punishments using human reason and a rational sense of human morality.

I understand that's your belief, and I believe you have a right to it, but that belief alone isn't going to quench the debate. I need to hear something from the previous poster other than "God says so", which he has admittedly claimed is the only justification he needs for doling out archaic punishments. There has to be more of an answer to my statement that a punishment should fit a crime than "revelation".

I'm bored. Where are we going with this topic again? Have we established ANYTHING beneficial? Is it not safe to say that this topic needs to be buried away?

Oh and I've already explained to him the there are rules in and regulations that need to be followed. He knows that it's not as simple as "you stole, you get your hand cut off har har har!!!"... I hope.

I'd also like to add that the chopping of one's hand isn't heavily practiced anymore. Or at least, not heavily advertised (in the newspaper that is). The exception, once again, goes to Saudia Arabia. 

[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"]You do realize that punishments mentioned in the Quran, are given only after checking the circumstances, magnitude of crime etc. . And not handed out in case of doubt.m0zart

Sure I realize that. But the crux of my point is a little more piercing than that -- a list of punishments given out by a human being claiming to speak for God more than 1000 years ago are not a replacement for using our living brains here and now to figure out these punishments using human reason and a rational sense of human morality.

I understand that's your belief, and I believe you have a right to it, but that belief alone isn't going to quench the debate. I need to hear something from the previous poster other than "God says so", which he has admittedly claimed is the only justification he needs for doling out archaic punishments.

[QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"]There is a fixed rule on the cutting of the hand that if the person has stolen more than x worth of material than they are subject to that punishment.m0zart

Right, and I am saying that punishment is extreme and unreasonable. "God says so" doesn't really make it any more reasonable to me.

Well the presence of this punishment shoudnt matter then cuz God makes humans suffer death,nothings more cruel and extreme than death as far as the physical pain inflicted is concerned.Does death and natural diseases seem reasonable to you?

So what was your argument again?

[QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]How do you know what I think Islam is? Are you generalizing everyone in western culture?LJS9502_basic

Your post was generalizing what I said...

I'm bored. Where are we going with this topic again? Have we established ANYTHING beneficial? Is it not safe to say that this topic needs to be buried away?

Oh and I've already explained to him the there are rules in and regulations that need to be followed. He knows that it's not as simple as "you stole, you get your hand cut off har har har!!!"... I hope.

I'd also like to add that the chopping of one's hand isn't heavily practiced anymore. Or at least, not heavily advertised (in the newspaper that is). The exception, once again, goes to Saudia Arabia. 

thattotally

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"]Did I say that every single indvidual in the west has a wrong perception of Islam?

 

Your post was generalizing what I said...

Thinker_reborn

You're dealing with LJ here. :P

[QUOTE="Thinker_reborn"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Didn't you make a thread claiming that non-Muslims who lived a good life didn't deserve to go to heaven?Funky_Llama

Btw nothing is necessary.It all ultimately depends on God...

You're dealing with LJ here. :P

Choga