Israeli Soldiers Beating Women

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

.. Yeah I am pretty sure people would rather have the support of the United States, the military super power of the world.. Instead of a small radical movement..

:|[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Hamas is a small group they are not a super power.. That is nothing.. And no where did I say the US should support Palestine. They should support a way to peace.. Something Israel is clealry not doing.. ANd something Palestine really has never been given the chance to.. The US should pull support, and base their aid on results reached or at least attempts.. Israel has done neither full heartedly.. They have been given a blank check and the ability to muscle every power in the region since 1967 war.. I don't see Israel as some evil country.. I see them just like their neighbors in most regards.. Ambitious, selfish and having little care for their neighbors in less its for some common goal.. What seperates Israel is they have gotten world support, especially from the US.. Given billions of dollars.. The Palestinian leadership was swept under the rug and forgotten.. Forced to be governed under governments that did not care for them.. Whether it was ISrael, Jordan, Lebenon etc etc.. They only were officially recognized as a group during the 90's for christ sakes.. Thats a gap of 40 years of being a unrecognized population that was leaderless and forced by other gorups into where they could fit.. Its no wonder they radicalized... This doesn't mean we should suppor tthem, but it certainly doesn't mean we should support Israel either.. Especially unquestionably.

sSubZerOo

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:|[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Hamas runs the country. They aren't minor dude.:|67gt500

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

sSubZerOo

.. Yeah I am pretty sure people would rather have the support of the United States, the military super power of the world.. Instead of a small radical movement..

[QUOTE="67gt500"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

Victorious_Fize

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

[QUOTE="67gt500"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] Hamas isn't like a conventional political party or a military or even a para-military for that matter... Hamas is more like a movement, a philosphy, aset of beliefs... beliefs that are shared, to varying degrees, by nearly one billion people worldwide... don't seem so small and insignifigant now, do they?

LJS9502_basic

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:|[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Hamas runs the country. They aren't minor dude.:|LJS9502_basic

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

If we must talk about other countries I am fully within reason of pulling funding with Saudi Arabia too.. You think your going to come to a contradiction with my policy ideas? You will be sadely mistaken.. And yes Hamas is a small knit group, they are not a real power nor something I would truly call as real support.. Furthermore Syria only supports Palenstiains when it pleases them.. Seeing as they have a grudge with Israel on the Golan Heights.. If we looked in the past no one truly supported the Palestnian population.. They were merely used as a poster child to justify their own ambitions.. Jordan is a text book example of this.. They used Palestnians to help fight against Israel as a just cause.. They then turned around on them and began slaughtering them when they became a inconvience to the royalty there.... You want to know why Hamas are in charge of Palestinian leadership and other radicals? Because every intellectual leadership was forced out when Israel flat out refused time and time again to make any kind of amends.. You do realize this is a deep seeded conflict? Where there are people living to this day that still have a key to their home in which they had in their family for generations now in the hands of a Israeli family.. Palestnian population has resorted to this because they live in shanty towns a great deal still.. They have no political rights and are forced into narrower and narrower areas.. The American Revolutionaries revolted due to a hike in tea, stamp and other taxes for crying out loud! Is it not a stretch to see why these people have unrest? And no, no where do I defend the actions of Hamas nor do I support their group.. But I do understand why the leadership has radicalized, because Israel has more or less made it the only route they can go.. If you look at all the agreements, they are always veiled the same deal.. In the 90s the deal was this of Israel.. Israel controls the majority of West Bank still through martial law, Palestniains have to legally give up more land (land Israel has no right to) and they are allowed to govern a few square miles..

I will agree with you when Israel makes a real effort for peace.. Until than the ball is in their court.. They are the ones with control over everything, they are the ones with the overpowering military, they are the ones that have always been backed by Europe and the United States..

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

Victorious_Fize

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] Hamas isn't like a conventional political party or a military or even a para-military for that matter... Hamas is more like a movement, a philosphy, aset of beliefs... beliefs that are shared, to varying degrees, by nearly one billion people worldwide... don't seem so small and insignifigant now, do they?

67gt500

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

You said one billion person follow their movement and philosphy, I corrected that by stating that they fight for Islam and Palestine, their beliefs and the like are inclined to their political party, nothing to do with Muslims, Arabs, and Islam as a whole.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| Do they have a UN position within the security council? Do they have billions of dollars of top of the line hardware backing them? Do they have allies of super power or first world countries? Yes in this comparison they are a minor force.. If you seriously think that the support of finicially gain and military related features equals what the Palestinians are getitng through the Hamas.. Than you need a reality check.. It has always been a one sided battle since the 1967 war.. In that Israel is absolutely dominating all its neighbors technologically and by overall force..

sSubZerOo

If we must talk about other countries I am fully within reason of pulling funding with Saudi Arabia too.. You think your going to come to a contradiction with my policy ideas? You will be sadely mistaken.. And yes Hamas is a small knit group, they are not a real power nor something I would truly call as real support.. Furthermore Syria only supports Palenstiains when it pleases them.. Seeing as they have a grudge with Israel on the Golan Heights.. If we looked in the past no one truly supported the Palestnian population.. They were merely used as a poster child to justify their own ambitions.. Jordan is a text book example of this.. They used Palestnians to help fight against Israel as a just cause.. They then turned around on them and began slaughtering them when they became a inconvience to the royalty there.... You want to know why Hamas are in charge of Palestinian leadership and other radicals? Because every intellectual leadership was forced out when Israel flat out refused time and time again to make any kind of amends.. You do realize this is a deep seeded conflict? Where there are people living to this day that still have a key to their home in which they had in their family for generations now in the hands of a Israeli family.. Palestnian population has resorted to this because they live in shanty towns a great deal still.. They have no political rights and are forced into narrower and narrower areas.. The American Revolutionaries revolted due to a hike in tea, stamp and other taxes for crying out loud! Is it not a stretch to see why these people have unrest? And no, no where do I defend the actions of Hamas nor do I support their group.. But I do understand why the leadership has radicalized, because Israel has more or less made it the only route they can go.. If you look at all the agreements, they are always veiled the same deal.. In the 90s the deal was this of Israel.. Israel controls the majority of West Bank still through martial law, Palestniains have to legally give up more land (land Israel has no right to) and they are allowed to govern a few square miles..

I will agree with you when Israel makes a real effort for peace.. Until than the ball is in their court.. They are the ones with control over everything, they are the ones with the overpowering military, they are the ones that have always been backed by Europe and the United States..

As for shifting allegiance....that's true of all countries in different periods of time. Politics makes for strange bedfellows and when there is no more use for an allegiance it's cast aside. And countries that have no value to other countries are ignored no matter what the condition of the citizens happens to be.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]He didn't mention religion.LJS9502_basic

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

Who knows in the end.. Jordan and Egypt turned around and became allies of Israel due to political gain.. The fact of the matter is I see Israel no better then Israel's enemies quite often, and being more critical seeing as Israel has never for the past few decades been vunerable.. They have a military hegemon where they can do as they please within reason.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That has nothing to do with anything...though Hamas is backed by some countries in the ME. You said they had no backing....and they do. Now you want to equivocate what criteria. We don't do that much for Israel...and other ME countries get our money. So that is not a one off. Israel is in a precarious situation. So I don't see anything wrong with keeping an eye on the country...but the US is mostly hands off except for the aforementioned money. And reality check? Maybe if Hamas didn't shoot off rockets...there would be a chance for peace....but then I've never seen you mention that problem with the equation.LJS9502_basic

If we must talk about other countries I am fully within reason of pulling funding with Saudi Arabia too.. You think your going to come to a contradiction with my policy ideas? You will be sadely mistaken.. And yes Hamas is a small knit group, they are not a real power nor something I would truly call as real support.. Furthermore Syria only supports Palenstiains when it pleases them.. Seeing as they have a grudge with Israel on the Golan Heights.. If we looked in the past no one truly supported the Palestnian population.. They were merely used as a poster child to justify their own ambitions.. Jordan is a text book example of this.. They used Palestnians to help fight against Israel as a just cause.. They then turned around on them and began slaughtering them when they became a inconvience to the royalty there.... You want to know why Hamas are in charge of Palestinian leadership and other radicals? Because every intellectual leadership was forced out when Israel flat out refused time and time again to make any kind of amends.. You do realize this is a deep seeded conflict? Where there are people living to this day that still have a key to their home in which they had in their family for generations now in the hands of a Israeli family.. Palestnian population has resorted to this because they live in shanty towns a great deal still.. They have no political rights and are forced into narrower and narrower areas.. The American Revolutionaries revolted due to a hike in tea, stamp and other taxes for crying out loud! Is it not a stretch to see why these people have unrest? And no, no where do I defend the actions of Hamas nor do I support their group.. But I do understand why the leadership has radicalized, because Israel has more or less made it the only route they can go.. If you look at all the agreements, they are always veiled the same deal.. In the 90s the deal was this of Israel.. Israel controls the majority of West Bank still through martial law, Palestniains have to legally give up more land (land Israel has no right to) and they are allowed to govern a few square miles..

I will agree with you when Israel makes a real effort for peace.. Until than the ball is in their court.. They are the ones with control over everything, they are the ones with the overpowering military, they are the ones that have always been backed by Europe and the United States..

As for shifting allegiance....that's true of all countries in different periods of time. Politics makes for strange bedfellows and when there is no more use for an allegiance it's cast aside. And countries that have no value to other countries are ignored no matter what the condition of the citizens happens to be.

Vastly underestimate the Hamas?.. I see so please tell me have you even watched the conflicts that occur? They consist of small gurrilla groups launching rockets.. And the closest thing they have to attacking Israel's armor is rpg's.. Israel proved its beginning of military dominance when they anniliated Syria, Egypt and Jordan in the 1967 war.. We have seen absolutely NO evidence to prove your statement is true what so ever.. What we see is this.. West Bank is under martial law.. And the greatest threats we see by Israel's enemies are gurrilla actions and suicide bombing... This is not holding up to your case when we compare this to US's financial and military support as well as UN protection.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

sSubZerOo

Who knows in the end.. Jordan and Egypt turned around and became allies of Israel due to political gain.. The fact of the matter is I see Israel no better then Israel's enemies quite often, and being more critical seeing as Israel has never for the past few decades been vunerable.. They have a military hegemon where they can do as they please within reason.

People here really need grow a thicker skin - there's really nothing extraordinary going on over there.

As far as riot police action go, this is pretty tame, actually, for Israel, and for anywhere else in the world.

The bottom line is, you never, EVER lay your hands on a Police officer (the guys in the video are border police), doubly so on a RIOT POLICE officer!

Even if you're absolutely, positively sure that what that officer is doing is way out of line - you just don't, ever, touch him. It's that simple.

You have the right to voice your objections, you can film everything that is going on (notice how the angry guys with the batons leave the cameraman alone), but you CAN'T physically get in the way of the officers - that would be obstruction of justice, and enough legal ground for the officers to apprehend you.

And then if you resist, that's when you get a baton to the face! Perfectly legal, BTW.

And I'm willing to bet my left nut that that's exactly what happened there - a couple of unruly protesters got in the face of the police officers, who, in turn, tried to arrest those people, the rest of the crowd got all uppity about it, started swarming the officers, encircling them, which made the officers nervous (justifiably so), and made them reach for their batons - a perfectly reasonable reaction to the situation.

So aside of a few minor transgressions - like hitting the guy on the ground once (which no sane court will ever prosecute, because following every such complaint with a court ruling will leave the country in question with no riot police) - there is absolutely nothing noteworthy in that occurrence.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]He didn't mention religion.LJS9502_basic

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

First and foremost, it's Palestine's decisions, Muslims and Arabs are bound to respect it and not interfere. Secondly, everyone knows them and Palestine are losing the war, so they will have to agree to a two state solution if it rises. Third, if another war rises with a mutual agreement of the two states, then it will obviously go on even grounds, so international law, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions are to be respected.

Vastly underestimate the Hamas?.. I see so please tell me have you even watched the conflicts that occur? They consist of small gurrilla groups launching rockets.. And the closest thing they have to attacking Israel's armor is rpg's.. Israel proved its beginning of military dominance when they anniliated Syria, Egypt and Jordan in the 1967 war.. We have seen absolutely NO evidence to prove your statement is true what so ever.. What we see is this.. West Bank is under martial law.. And the greatest threats we see by Israel's enemies are gurrilla actions and suicide bombing... This is not holding up to your case when we compare this to US's financial and military support as well as UN protection.

sSubZerOo

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] What about the ME countries that want to destroy the Israelis?LJS9502_basic

Who knows in the end.. Jordan and Egypt turned around and became allies of Israel due to political gain.. The fact of the matter is I see Israel no better then Israel's enemies quite often, and being more critical seeing as Israel has never for the past few decades been vunerable.. They have a military hegemon where they can do as they please within reason.

The fact of the matter is this.. Israel has never cared to sort it out, they use loopholes and shovel extremely flawed agreements... Israel has absolutely NO reason for peace because they have shown time and time again that they want the West Bank.. You want to know what started the 1973 war? It was a panic attack by Egypt and Syria when Israel refused to do the land for peace agreement in the beginning pressed forward by both USSR and USA.. What they did in stead is ignore it and begin makign artiifical settlements on the land so when it does happen they can take away immense chunks of the lands of their own gain in claiming that its now settled.. You want to know what prevented this? Egypt and Syria attacking at once.. Not to win, just to force the USSR and USA to butt heads.. This is a example of Israel policy.. That they will only give up land and control by severe external pressure, in this regard the threat of nuclear war.. There is no legitimate reason why the US should unquestioningly support Israel, because they have proven to be the most land hungry country within the region for the past 50 years.

In other news, hundreds of Syrian protesters are gunned down by the Syrian government but no one gives a damn because it's not the "evil" Jews doing it.

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

What? The only reason Arab and Muslims support Hamas is becuase they fight for Palestine. Hamas has nothing to do with Muslims religion, the merely fight for it.

You said one billion person follow their movement and philosphy, I corrected that by stating that they fight for Islam and Palestine, their beliefs and the like are inclined to their political party, nothing to do with Muslims, Arabs, and Islam as a whole.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

Victorious_Fize

First and foremost, it's Palestine's decisions, Muslims and Arabs are bound to respect it and not interfere. Secondly, everyone knows them and Palestine are losing the war, so they will have to agree to a two state solution if it rises. Third, if another war rises with a mutual agreement of the two states, then it will obviously go on even grounds, so international law, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions are to be respected.

That made me chuckle a little on the inside...

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Vastly underestimate the Hamas?.. I see so please tell me have you even watched the conflicts that occur? They consist of small gurrilla groups launching rockets.. And the closest thing they have to attacking Israel's armor is rpg's.. Israel proved its beginning of military dominance when they anniliated Syria, Egypt and Jordan in the 1967 war.. We have seen absolutely NO evidence to prove your statement is true what so ever.. What we see is this.. West Bank is under martial law.. And the greatest threats we see by Israel's enemies are gurrilla actions and suicide bombing... This is not holding up to your case when we compare this to US's financial and military support as well as UN protection.

LJS9502_basic

Most of its neighbors? Who exactly? They are allied with Egypt through Sadat.. The Hejimite (spelling?) kingdom in Jordan allied with Israel after the 1967 war.. Saudi Arabia is not enemies with Israel specifically due to the US connection.. Lebenon since the civil war has been neutral outside some political gurrilla groups causing trouble.. Iraq is toppled even then they were more hostile towards Iran and worrying about them then they were Iraq.. That leaves Syria and Iran.. Syria has never had backers like Israel and never could compete militarily.. What military Iran had was destroyed during the Iran Iraq War which was costly.. Not to mention besides rhetoric and alittle finanicing they wer emore worried about Iraq in the end.. What enemies are you talking about? They have enemies yes.. But they are not surrounded by them as state powers.. What they are surrounded by is civil unrest brought upon decades of conflict and Israel's continued policies of occupation.. Yet again Israel has never made a move to even remotely attempt a real agreement in giving the West Bank to them.. And I say again, Israel has had control of this conflict since the beginning.. They have not made any movement to call of peace inless its dramatically in their favor, it is no wonder why the leadership has become to radical.. Afterall who are the poor and homeless Palestniain people going to listen to? The intellectual who thinks they should talk regardless of what Israel has done? Or the guy with the gun that wants to destroy Israel because thats the only way they will get their homes back.. Israel hasn't done a single thing in giving the Palestinian population confidence.. In fact they have done the exact opposite.. That they are not going to negogiatite inless they get exactly what they want.. For example the entire West bank more or less.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Who knows in the end.. Jordan and Egypt turned around and became allies of Israel due to political gain.. The fact of the matter is I see Israel no better then Israel's enemies quite often, and being more critical seeing as Israel has never for the past few decades been vunerable.. They have a military hegemon where they can do as they please within reason.

sSubZerOo

The fact of the matter is this.. Israel has never cared to sort it out, they use loopholes and shovel extremely flawed agreements... Israel has absolutely NO reason for peace because they have shown time and time again that they want the West Bank.. You want to know what started the 1973 war? It was a panic attack by Egypt and Syria when Israel refused to do the land for peace agreement in the beginning pressed forward by both USSR and USA.. What they did in stead is ignore it and begin makign artiifical settlements on the land so when it does happen they can take away immense chunks of the lands of their own gain in claiming that its now settled.. You want to know what prevented this? Egypt and Syria attacking at once.. Not to win, just to force the USSR and USA to butt heads.. This is a example of Israel policy.. That they will only give up land and control by severe external pressure, in this regard the threat of nuclear war.. There is no legitimate reason why the US should unquestioningly support Israel, because they have proven to be the most land hungry country within the region for the past 50 years.

In other news, hundreds of Syrian protesters are gunned down by the Syrian government but no one gives a damn because it's not the "evil" Jews doing it.

redstorm72

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] What about the ME countries that want to destroy the Israelis?Zyamaman

First and foremost, it's Palestine's decisions, Muslims and Arabs are bound to respect it and not interfere. Secondly, everyone knows them and Palestine are losing the war, so they will have to agree to a two state solution if it rises. Third, if another war rises with a mutual agreement of the two states, then it will obviously go on even grounds, so international law, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions are to be respected.

That made me chuckle a little on the inside...

Then I would not be very surprised if you supported a one state solution for Israel.

[QUOTE="Zyamaman"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

First and foremost, it's Palestine's decisions, Muslims and Arabs are bound to respect it and not interfere. Secondly, everyone knows them and Palestine are losing the war, so they will have to agree to a two state solution if it rises. Third, if another war rises with a mutual agreement of the two states, then it will obviously go on even grounds, so international law, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions are to be respected.

Victorious_Fize

That made me chuckle a little on the inside...

Then I would not be very surprised if you supported a one state solution for Israel.

Then I guess you'd be hell of a lot surprised to find out that I don't...

Apropriate video title, i'd say

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] They have to be strong militarily or they will cease to exist. As for Palestine.....if Hamas were to leave then I think there would be a chance to sort the mess out. But as long as Hamas is there....I don't see that happening. Unfortunately I think Hamas is popular with 62% of the country. So it's a bit of a dead end right now.LJS9502_basic

The fact of the matter is this.. Israel has never cared to sort it out, they use loopholes and shovel extremely flawed agreements... Israel has absolutely NO reason for peace because they have shown time and time again that they want the West Bank.. You want to know what started the 1973 war? It was a panic attack by Egypt and Syria when Israel refused to do the land for peace agreement in the beginning pressed forward by both USSR and USA.. What they did in stead is ignore it and begin makign artiifical settlements on the land so when it does happen they can take away immense chunks of the lands of their own gain in claiming that its now settled.. You want to know what prevented this? Egypt and Syria attacking at once.. Not to win, just to force the USSR and USA to butt heads.. This is a example of Israel policy.. That they will only give up land and control by severe external pressure, in this regard the threat of nuclear war.. There is no legitimate reason why the US should unquestioningly support Israel, because they have proven to be the most land hungry country within the region for the past 50 years.

... I see so your logic is we should use things that we consider today immoral leading to genoicide that happened over 200 years ago for the US and really condemn, and think its ok to what Israel did in the 1940s, 60s and 70s.. And today.. Continuing their policies that really have never changed by a large margin.. Brilliant defense.. We should start ignoring human trafficing because afterall the United States did it only 150 years ago..

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

The fact of the matter is this.. Israel has never cared to sort it out, they use loopholes and shovel extremely flawed agreements... Israel has absolutely NO reason for peace because they have shown time and time again that they want the West Bank.. You want to know what started the 1973 war? It was a panic attack by Egypt and Syria when Israel refused to do the land for peace agreement in the beginning pressed forward by both USSR and USA.. What they did in stead is ignore it and begin makign artiifical settlements on the land so when it does happen they can take away immense chunks of the lands of their own gain in claiming that its now settled.. You want to know what prevented this? Egypt and Syria attacking at once.. Not to win, just to force the USSR and USA to butt heads.. This is a example of Israel policy.. That they will only give up land and control by severe external pressure, in this regard the threat of nuclear war.. There is no legitimate reason why the US should unquestioningly support Israel, because they have proven to be the most land hungry country within the region for the past 50 years.

sSubZerOo

... I see so your logic is we should use things that we consider today immoral leading to genoicide that happened over 200 years ago for the US and really condemn, and think its ok to what Israel did in the 1940s, 60s and 70s.. And today.. Continuing their policies that really have never changed by a large margin.. Brilliant defense.. We should start ignoring human trafficing because afterall the United States did it only 150 years ago..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Can you show me where other countries including the US and USSR didn't take more land to expand?LJS9502_basic

... I see so your logic is we should use things that we consider today immoral leading to genoicide that happened over 200 years ago for the US and really condemn, and think its ok to what Israel did in the 1940s, 60s and 70s.. And today.. Continuing their policies that really have never changed by a large margin.. Brilliant defense.. We should start ignoring human trafficing because afterall the United States did it only 150 years ago..

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

I feel bad for women in that region of the world. You get beaten by your family. You get beaten by your husband. And now you get beaten by soldiers. Just cant catch a break.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

... I see so your logic is we should use things that we consider today immoral leading to genoicide that happened over 200 years ago for the US and really condemn, and think its ok to what Israel did in the 1940s, 60s and 70s.. And today.. Continuing their policies that really have never changed by a large margin.. Brilliant defense.. We should start ignoring human trafficing because afterall the United States did it only 150 years ago..

sSubZerOo

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

So a couple of soldiers allegedly being idiots somehow represents the entire Israeli military and the whole state of Israel how? Yes, I'm sure the Prime Minister of Israel specifically set forth a policy that all Israeli soldiers should beat women. I bet he called those soldiers up himself and told them to do it.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

... I see so your logic is we should use things that we consider today immoral leading to genoicide that happened over 200 years ago for the US and really condemn, and think its ok to what Israel did in the 1940s, 60s and 70s.. And today.. Continuing their policies that really have never changed by a large margin.. Brilliant defense.. We should start ignoring human trafficing because afterall the United States did it only 150 years ago..

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

So a couple of soldiers allegedly being idiots somehow represents the entire Israeli military and the whole state of Israel how? Yes, I'm sure the Prime Minister of Israel specifically set forth a policy that all Israeli soldiers should beat women. I bet he called those soldiers up himself and told them to do it.

SpartanMSU

Except it's not even that - for the most part, they act in accordance with the protocol.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Actually I'm going more along the lines of your antipathy toward Israel while not calling other countries out for the same tactics.LJS9502_basic

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

Because Hamas do not have control of the situation and Israel has never once made a real peace pact in giving Palestinians control of the West Bank.. That is why.. Until then Israel is the main focus of this.. If this were a even conflict and both sides were pulling punches I wouldn't slant it that way.. And I don't see Hamas as a good guys or a cause.. I see them as a cancer that has infected the Palestinian group due to desperation, they may have uped the conflict but they are not the original source of the conflict.. Not by a long shot.. That will undoubtably be a problem if that fateful day ever occurs (which I doubt it ever will) in which they will need to be combated on both sides, the Palestinians and the Israeli side.. Furthermore here is a good food for thought.. The conflict with Lebenon a few years back with Hezzoballah and Israel was a complete fubar situation.. When Hezz attacked Israel, the people of Lebenon had popular support go against them because they did not want a war and were rallying against them.. Then came Israel's counter attack.. Which had little care for collateral damage, the once anti hezz people full swing supported them after that display.. So in the end ISrael failed and Hezz did not lose power.. They in fact have grown in power due to this.. This is much in the way Hamas an radicals have gained power, the people have had their hands forced time and time again to choose whether they are to be submitted under martial rule in losing land, or agreeing with the one side that wants to fight them.. I despise Hamas as much as the next group, but they are not the people in charge of this conflict.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Actually I'm going more along the lines of your antipathy toward Israel while not calling other countries out for the same tactics.67gt500

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

.. Ok first of all stop using Anti semite.. That is a insult.. The Arab race and culture is semitic too.. To suggest that anti-semitic means only anti-jewish.. Suggests that Arabs are not important.. And the other thing, Israel has not once made a policy what so ever.. The fact of the matter is Israel holds all the chips they have not once gambled in this agreement what so ever.. And Palestnians will continue to be connected to Hamas as long as this occupation goes.. Palestinians radicalized specifically due to these reasons.. Do you seriously expect that no kind of remends will some how stop them.. No its a dead lock..

Because Hamas do not have control of the situation and Israel has never once made a real peace pact in giving Palestinians control of the West Bank.. That is why.. Until then Israel is the main focus of this.. If this were a even conflict and both sides were pulling punches I wouldn't slant it that way.. And I don't see Hamas as a good guys or a cause.. I see them as a cancer that has infected the Palestinian group due to desperation, they may have uped the conflict but they are not the original source of the conflict.. Not by a long shot.. That will undoubtably be a problem if that fateful day ever occurs (which I doubt it ever will) in which they will need to be combated on both sides, the Palestinians and the Israeli side.. Furthermore here is a good food for thought.. The conflict with Lebenon a few years back with Hezzoballah and Israel was a complete fubar situation.. When Hezz attacked Israel, the people of Lebenon had popular support go against them because they did not want a war and were rallying against them.. Then came Israel's counter attack.. Which had little care for collateral damage, the once anti hezz people full swing supported them after that display.. So in the end ISrael failed and Hezz did not lose power.. They in fact have grown in power due to this.. This is much in the way Hamas an radicals have gained power, the people have had their hands forced time and time again to choose whether they are to be submitted under martial rule in losing land, or agreeing with the one side that wants to fight them.. I despise Hamas as much as the next group, but they are not the people in charge of this conflict.

sSubZerOo

While Israel has made some bad decisions....you can't really second quess them when they are there in the midst of it and you are home safe in front of the computer. Most countries have made mistakes. Deciding to support or not doesn't do much when one is under attack. I wonder how long you would wait if you were in that position.

Palestine needs a new government and one that isn't swayed by other countries that put their agenda over the good of the Palestinians.

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

.. Ok first of all stop using Anti semite.. That is a insult.. The Arab race and culture is semitic too.. To suggest that anti-semitic means only anti-jewish.. Suggests that Arabs are not important.. And the other thing, Israel has not once made a policy what so ever.. The fact of the matter is Israel holds all the chips they have not once gambled in this agreement what so ever.. And Palestnians will continue to be connected to Hamas as long as this occupation goes.. Palestinians radicalized specifically due to these reasons.. Do you seriously expect that no kind of remends will some how stop them.. No its a dead lock..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] Israel will never negotiate with a Palestinian leadership that has ties to Hamas... In this case, it's not Israel that needs to change policy -- it's Palestinian leadership who must make the next move... and that move must be either severing all it's ties to Hamas OR Hamas publicly rescinding their traditional Anti-Semitic stance... one or the other...67gt500

.. Ok first of all stop using Anti semite.. That is a insult.. The Arab race and culture is semitic too.. To suggest that anti-semitic means only anti-jewish.. Suggests that Arabs are not important.. And the other thing, Israel has not once made a policy what so ever.. The fact of the matter is Israel holds all the chips they have not once gambled in this agreement what so ever.. And Palestnians will continue to be connected to Hamas as long as this occupation goes.. Palestinians radicalized specifically due to these reasons.. Do you seriously expect that no kind of remends will some how stop them.. No its a dead lock..

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

.. Ok first of all stop using Anti semite.. That is a insult.. The Arab race and culture is semitic too.. To suggest that anti-semitic means only anti-jewish.. Suggests that Arabs are not important.. And the other thing, Israel has not once made a policy what so ever.. The fact of the matter is Israel holds all the chips they have not once gambled in this agreement what so ever.. And Palestnians will continue to be connected to Hamas as long as this occupation goes.. Palestinians radicalized specifically due to these reasons.. Do you seriously expect that no kind of remends will some how stop them.. No its a dead lock..

LJS9502_basic

Indeed... thank you for the clarification...

I'm reminded of an argument I got into with some person on this forum, who said that if a foreign military occupied his country, he wouldn't mind the consequences. No, I'm not making this up; someone actually said this.

As regards the video, I'm 3:30 in... where were women beaten? Somebody point it out to me.

a little perspective

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Well, he implied, but never the less: all Arabs and Muslims would be in favour of stopping bloodhshed and Israel's violation of international law with a neutral US on the matter.

Victorious_Fize

First and foremost, it's Palestine's decisions, Muslims and Arabs are bound to respect it and not interfere. Secondly, everyone knows them and Palestine are losing the war, so they will have to agree to a two state solution if it rises. Third, if another war rises with a mutual agreement of the two states, then it will obviously go on even grounds, so international law, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions are to be respected.

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Like who? I clearly said I would love to defund Saudi Arabia.. They are a human rights violation extreme Islamic theocracy.. I would love to defund Pakistan they are a corrupt government that is using our tax dollars and promoting Taliban activity simply for their conflict with India.. I can harp on about Iran and Syria all I want.. But they are already condemned left and right.> i would really be preaching to the choir would I not? And furthermore they are not recieving billions of dollars a year in aid money and being given protection by the UN.. Thats right if it weren't for the US, the UN would put the same kind of economic sanctions they put on people like North Korea and Iran.. Where exaclty did I say I support the Hamas? IN fact if anything I said the exact opposite.. They are a extremist groups.. The only thing I simply said is I know exactly why the Palestniains have radicalized. That was it.. I neither supported nor condemened it but pointed out as a obvious conclusion to whats happening right now.. One that will not change until the very least Israel changes poliices.. Afterall this conflict is dominated by Israel.. The only thing the other side can manage is gurrilla action.. Even then its miniscule..

sSubZerOo

.. Ok first of all stop using Anti semite.. That is a insult.. The Arab race and culture is semitic too.. To suggest that anti-semitic means only anti-jewish.. Suggests that Arabs are not important.. And the other thing, Israel has not once made a policy what so ever.. The fact of the matter is Israel holds all the chips they have not once gambled in this agreement what so ever.. And Palestnians will continue to be connected to Hamas as long as this occupation goes.. Palestinians radicalized specifically due to these reasons.. Do you seriously expect that no kind of remends will some how stop them.. No its a dead lock..

Yay for good use of American money, everyone blames Israel but we are the ones paying those suckers to do **** like this.

Yay for good use of American money, everyone blames Israel but we are the ones paying those suckers to do **** like this.

Yongying