Pretty shameful act. I am against the beating of women. Violence against woman is wrong.
Israeli Soldiers Beating Women
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Just another day in the unholy land.
[QUOTE="mayceV"]
most civilians didn't know what was happening to the jews. come on germans are the most to themself people ever, they care nothing of where you're from thatt's how there culture is. i doubt they suddenly had the urge to kill jews. It was the nazi party that did so. the Nazi's had an iron grip and to the Germans they had no idea what was going on half the time (the beggining half atleast).
oh they knew, but alot of people were too scared to do anything.
they might not have known exactly what was happening ,but they were aware of people getting killed, and it wasn't just Germany, if it was just Germany , it would have been in the hundreds of thousands , not millions.
regarding that previous post, you don't need to worry about any rape due to simple social attiudes, In Israel is frowned upon for a Jew and an Arab to have any sort of sexual encounter, forced or otherwise, and most soldiers are smarter then that.
and you can't blame Israel for everything under the sun , the Palestinians have their share of blood on their hands, should I take them or their leaders to the international crimes court? I don't think there is a need to if Im trying to get a peace agreement with them.
and besides, if international law and the UN were that important in the region , Israel wouldnt have been attacked in 48 (the decision was a UN one) , or the UN force would not have been told to leave in 67, the end thing is that everybody follows the UN when it suits them , and disregards them wheter they like it or not.
and if you expect Israel to pay for land, how about the Arab world pay for land stolen from the Jews when they had to leave whatever country in the Middle East they had to run away to (800,000 of them , most of which had to go and live in refugee camps in Israel for years) , after getting their property and land confiscated from them after 48 (mostly in the 1950s), and the amount of land and property confiscated was huge, just land alone was nearly 100 thousand km squared (ie, 4 times what Israel/Gaza/West bank combined is today).
my great grandfather for instance used to have a furniture factory and shop in Marakesh, Morocco . he realised things were not going to get any better for the Jews (especially after a series of pogrom), and simply closed the factory and left, he got no money for it. of course those Jews have asked for compensation from the Arab governments, and got absolutly nothing.
I don't blame Palestinians for it, but do you see what I mean? if you should get money, why shoudn't I ? in fact, judging on land alone I should get well over 4 times the money you do.
for compensation, jews asked regimes. regimes that wouldn't give anyone money for anything. However isreal is a democracy. Compensation and being trialed for war crimes should be heard. As for international law, it should be impelmented.. plaestians only have tht to bank on. you think hamas can actually accompilsh anything? an outside party has to oversee things because the only barganing chip the palestians have is international law. Other than that they have no money no military strength no weapons silos no nothing. Also isreal strikes disporportionally which is an act of war crime 9 in gaza there were over 1400 plaextian deats over 1000 of whic were civilians. more Alestians died those 23 days than in all of isreal in the last decade. That's the problem. And apparently not a single isreali soldier was charged witha war crime even if thee were obvious indications there were infact many war crimes committed. How can palestians trust or even negotiate with a government that allows thier soldiers to conduct themselves like hoolagans? over 350 children were killed in Gaza durring that attack, 59 medical facilities were hit 2 of which were demolish completely one burned by white phsophrus. ambulances shot by tanks and apaches. The IDF's free pass to commit war crimes is what makes isreal look bad not because they are trying to wipe out Hamas.
[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]
Pretty shameful act. I am against the beating of women. Violence against woman is wrong.
Palantas
Most sexist statement on OT today.
I'm not sure how that qualifies as sexism...
I'm not sure how that qualifies as sexism...
chessmaster1989
Well you obviously need some sensitivity training.
That offensive, sexist post perpetuates the hurtful stereotype of women as frail and helpless, when this is not the case. Women can now learn how to fight and even seek training in arms; I believe you'll see at least one female soldier in the videos. The correct statement would be "Violence against people is wrong."
[QUOTE="mayceV"]
most civilians didn't know what was happening to the jews. come on germans are the most to themself people ever, they care nothing of where you're from thatt's how there culture is. i doubt they suddenly had the urge to kill jews. It was the nazi party that did so. the Nazi's had an iron grip and to the Germans they had no idea what was going on half the time (the beggining half atleast).
oh they knew, but alot of people were too scared to do anything.
they might not have known exactly what was happening ,but they were aware of people getting killed, and it wasn't just Germany, if it was just Germany , it would have been in the hundreds of thousands , not millions.
regarding that previous post, you don't need to worry about any rape due to simple social attiudes, In Israel is frowned upon for a Jew and an Arab to have any sort of sexual encounter, forced or otherwise, and most soldiers are smarter then that.
and you can't blame Israel for everything under the sun , the Palestinians have their share of blood on their hands, should I take them or their leaders to the international crimes court? I don't think there is a need to if Im trying to get a peace agreement with them.
and besides, if international law and the UN were that important in the region , Israel wouldnt have been attacked in 48 (the decision was a UN one) , or the UN force would not have been told to leave in 67, the end thing is that everybody follows the UN when it suits them , and disregards them wheter they like it or not.
and if you expect Israel to pay for land, how about the Arab world pay for land stolen from the Jews when they had to leave whatever country in the Middle East they had to run away to (800,000 of them , most of which had to go and live in refugee camps in Israel for years) , after getting their property and land confiscated from them after 48 (mostly in the 1950s), and the amount of land and property confiscated was huge, just land alone was nearly 100 thousand km squared (ie, 4 times what Israel/Gaza/West bank combined is today).
my great grandfather for instance used to have a furniture factory and shop in Marakesh, Morocco . he realised things were not going to get any better for the Jews (especially after a series of pogrom), and simply closed the factory and left, he got no money for it. of course those Jews have asked for compensation from the Arab governments, and got absolutly nothing.
I don't blame Palestinians for it, but do you see what I mean? if you should get money, why shoudn't I ? in fact, judging on land alone I should get well over 4 times the money you do.
for compensation, jews asked regimes. regimes that wouldn't give anyone money for anything. However isreal is a democracy. Compensation and being trialed for war crimes should be heard. As for international law, it should be impelmented.. plaestians only have tht to bank on. you think hamas can actually accompilsh anything? an outside party has to oversee things because the only barganing chip the palestians have is international law. Other than that they have no money no military strength no weapons silos no nothing. Also isreal strikes disporportionally which is an act of war crime 9 in gaza there were over 1400 plaextian deats over 1000 of whic were civilians. more Alestians died those 23 days than in all of isreal in the last decade. That's the problem. And apparently not a single isreali soldier was charged witha war crime even if thee were obvious indications there were infact many war crimes committed. How can palestians trust or even negotiate with a government that allows thier soldiers to conduct themselves like hoolagans? over 350 children were killed in Gaza durring that attack, 59 medical facilities were hit 2 of which were demolish completely one burned by white phsophrus. ambulances shot by tanks and apaches. The IDF's free pass to commit war crimes is what makes isreal look bad not because they are trying to wipe out Hamas. it doesn't matter who they are asking, if you deserve compensation , so do the Jews, its only fair, they are certainly no worse than you. so what I propose is this, the Arab world gives compensation for all the land and property they confiscated and stole from the Jews (to be paid by each individual country), and out of that, just under a quarter will go towards the Palestinians (since the land owned by the Jews was over 4 times the size of the British Mandate) I think that would be the most fair solution don't you? it doesn't bother me if its a crazed dictator or a democracy, you can't say one group gets justice and the other does not, that in itself is discrimination. and I would suggest that to reduce civilian casualties, Hamas comes and fights in the open , not hide in urban areas, if they are such lions like they claim , then they can defend their people without hiding behined them , in fact, Ismael Haniyah was hiding in a hospital during that entire time, knowing he was a potential target and risking the people inside, There were even testimonies from locals themselves, that Hamas fighters dressed as medical workers and hijacked ambulances to use in their fight. and if Hamas are so honourable, they can fire at military targets, and not at Sderot, Ashkelon and Beersheeva , some of those rockets hit schools, one hit a hospital Hamas does not have all the weapons Israel has, but its doing its part to also break international law, so it works both ways here. now in Israel there were inquires regarding any case , and even Richard Goldstone , admitted those inquires in Israel were correct and proper. now I would like to see Hamas do the exact same, but you know of course they won't so much for international law.the IDf has repeatdly been reported to be hiding behiend palestians and using them as human shields attacked ambulances and medical personal directly. you claim that hamas is hiding and that it issome sort of excuse to commit war crimes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZgNy46aTQ&feature=relmfu watch that and tell me that Isreal isn't terrorizing the palestinian civilians and is soley searching for hamas operatives. Your ambulance story could be legit but when you havemedical peopleloading peopleinto them do you really think its for fighting purposes? the IDF doesn't care for the civilians and gets a free passwhat ever they want to palestians. don't try defedning the IDF's actions in Gaza because it was indescriminat killing. watch that video. bombs were dropped directly into the courtyards of peoples homes while they were outside. I'm not gonna sit here and list what happns in that video- Just watch it from start to end. As for compensation for the jews, i believe they deserve compensation. no one should be pushed off thier land everyone is equal you're right. however just because jews and isrealis were wronged doesn't give them to the right to wrong the palestinians. (and BTW I never said that jews didin't deserve compensation i told you why they didn't get any from the arab countries. the rules of arab countries back then rarely gave to thier own people so its no suprise the jews were wronged and not given compensation)
[QUOTE="BiancaDK"]
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]
thats called survivors, do you even know what was Europe's Jewish population before the war?
less then 9 million , meaning at least 2/3 were killed, dont tell me 3 million were saved, because thats lying.
most of them either managed to leave before the war (which wasnt all that much since countries placed pretty tough limits on Jewish immigration following the Evian conference in 1938 ) , or simply survived the war. its as simple as that.
the vast majority of people were either too scared/uncaring to do anything , or mildly agreed with the killing.
sure you have good people, but sadly they were a minority.
Darkman2007
for starters, "the dissolution of the eastern european jewry" written by renowned expert demographer walter n. sanning disagrees wildly with your figures
secondly, calling them survivors instead of saved can easily be a question of petty semantics in many scenarios
thirdly, you just said good people were sadly a minority, yet the vast majority of the world fought the axis
not inside Europe they didn't , the British (and the Empire) , USSR and that was really about it, the French only rejoined the war after liberation .
and its not a question of semantics at all , if someone is saved, , it means someone from the public has risked his life to save a Jew (or any minority killed in the Holocaust), survivor means someone who was in a concentration camp , and was simply lucky enough not to be killed .
while i haven't read that book , it seems ludicrous to me , saying every or most Jews disperesed before the war is silly, because immigration wasnt huge, apart from a wave of immigration to the US following the pogroms in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
most of these "revisionist" books are basically holocaust denial with a different name.
I assume youre going to give me a book by some othe Holocaust denier? Maybe you can quote me one of the members of Hamas who said the Holocaust was not real? :P
1: not inside europe they didn't? Why not narrow it down to "not inside berlin they didn't" while you're at it, it'll substantiate your argument even further! : D
2: and yes, it can easily be a question of semantics, you just gave me your personal take on what it means to be saved and what it means to be a survivor, i'll just disagree with your take on it and stand by equidistant merits still
3: if you haven't read the book, you're not exactly in a position to criticize it (;
[QUOTE="BiancaDK"]
not necessarily. it was also because the Jews got sick of the Europeans slaughtering us for centuries. even when the Jews thought large scale anti semetism was gone after the 1920s the Holocause happens, and the Germans were not the only perpetrators, they had plenty of helpers from many countries. its funny, but when the Jews are in Europe, the Europeans slaughter them and express their wish that they leave. when the Jews are not in Europe, the Europeans (and others) want the Jews back in Europe the fact that this area was an ancestral homeland was something else.Darkman2007
yes, sweden risking it's neutrality in it's protection of jews during WW2 and denmark helping jews to escape the clutches of the nazi regime during occupation amongst many other stories of europeans trying to help ethnic jews is definitely europeans just slaughtering jews
At the evian conference the only nation willing to take in some Jewish refugees was the Dominican Republic. Sweden together with Switzerland even made the Germans put a J in the passport of jews to easier turn them down. officially. (;[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="BiancaDK"]
I can put a small spin on it if you'd like, for added perspective.
Can you guess how many jews were saved during world war 2?
That's a pretty pathetic spin. That's like saying a murderer may have killed 3 people, but he left 5 billion alive.well she basically just quoted me a book which on the face of it seems to say that most Jews were not killed , but in fact left before the war.
unless she would like to explain further , Id stick to the explanation given to me by more....respectable people, as well as holocaust survivors in my own family as to what what actually happend
using what is essentially holocaust denial to try to argue the holocaust with a Jew is pretty low, I have to admit.
biased much? (; i'll bring whatever argument i please to the table, i don't care if you're a jew.the IDf has repeatdly been reported to be hiding behiend palestians and using them as human shields attacked ambulances and medical personal directly. you claim that hamas is hiding and that is some sort of excuse to commit war crimes? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZgNy46aTQ&feature=relmfu watch that and tell me that Isreal isn't terrorizing the palestinian civilians and is searching for hamas operatives. did you know they hit over half the hospitals in gaza? uzed white phosphrus on civilian buildings? Your ambulance story could be legit but when you have people loaded into them then do you really think its for fighting purposes? the IDF doesn't care for the civilians and gets a free pass to do to the palestians what ever they want. don't try defedning the IDF's actions in Gaza because it was indescriminat killing. watch that video. bombs were dropped directly into the courtyards of peoples homes while they were outside. I'm not gonna list what happns in that video- Just watch it from start to end. As for compensation for the jews, i believe they deserve compensation. no one should be oush off thier land everyone is equal you're right. however just because isrealis were wronged doesn't give them to the right to wrong the palestinians.mayceVexactly two wrongs don't make a right, but that is the past, you can't change it , which is why my plan is the most fair, the Jews get compensation, and from that around 1/4 will go to the Palestinians, or however much the compensation for them goes to. like I said, the amount of land and property stolen from us is 4 times what the Palestinians lost, so there is more then enough. technically my family should get compensation as well from Morocco, my great grandad owned a furniture factory and shop in Marrakesh, the family lived well, the my grandma went to private school , and they even had a caretaker for the children, they weren't rich , but they lived well. now my great grandfather didn't get any money or compensation for the factory or shop which he had , by law , to leave beheind, he also got no money for the property which he was forced to live behined , so I should get money as well. sadly he died last year so he isnt getting anything. and if anyone tells you the Jews all left because of zionism they are talking rubbish , there was some zionism , but who in their right mind would leave a relatively comfortable life, have his property and land taken from (with no money given for that land and property) him and go live in Israel which at the time was suffering from food shortages. if Israel is expected to take care of the several million Palestninan refugees, the Arab world can take care of the 3.5 million Jews from the Arab world and their decendents. and again , I never said any of those things don't happen , the majority of what you said was right, thats the thing, we conduct inquiries , and if someone is found guilty, he gets punished, while Hamas celebrate if they kill civilans (they were giving out sweets to children in Rafiah and Gaza due to the murder of the Forgel family a few months ago , when 3 children , including a little baby , were stabbed by 2 Palestinians), I don't , and I would like to see Hamas appoligising and punishing any of their members for killing my people.
thats when BiancaDK said most people helped Jews at the time (though she only pointed out Sweden and Danemark), which I said was wrong, some did, but there were more cases of locals killing Jews. you can guess where this went.Darkman2007
free bj's all around if you can show me where i said that. (;
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]
[QUOTE="BiancaDK"]
for starters, "the dissolution of the eastern european jewry" written by renowned expert demographer walter n. sanning disagrees wildly with your figures
secondly, calling them survivors instead of saved can easily be a question of petty semantics in many scenarios
thirdly, you just said good people were sadly a minority, yet the vast majority of the world fought the axis
BiancaDK
not inside Europe they didn't , the British (and the Empire) , USSR and that was really about it, the French only rejoined the war after liberation .
and its not a question of semantics at all , if someone is saved, , it means someone from the public has risked his life to save a Jew (or any minority killed in the Holocaust), survivor means someone who was in a concentration camp , and was simply lucky enough not to be killed .
while i haven't read that book , it seems ludicrous to me , saying every or most Jews disperesed before the war is silly, because immigration wasnt huge, apart from a wave of immigration to the US following the pogroms in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
most of these "revisionist" books are basically holocaust denial with a different name.
I assume youre going to give me a book by some othe Holocaust denier? Maybe you can quote me one of the members of Hamas who said the Holocaust was not real? :P
1: not inside europe they didn't? Why not narrow it down to "not inside berlin they didn't" while you're at it, it'll substantiate your argument even further! : D
2: and yes, it can easily be a question of semantics, you just gave me your personal take on what it means to be saved and what it means to be a survivor, i'll just disagree with your take on it and stand by equidistant merits still
3: if you haven't read the book, you're not exactly in a position to criticize it (;
fine then, explain what the book said. though its not my problem if you believe all the Jews left before the holocaust, because I know that is wrong and I personally couldnt care less what you say, since I don't trust holocause deniers.[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]thats when BiancaDK said most people helped Jews at the time (though she only pointed out Sweden and Danemark), which I said was wrong, some did, but there were more cases of locals killing Jews. you can guess where this went.BiancaDK
free bj's all around if you can show me where i said that. (;
apparently thats what the book said, unless youre willing to explain what the book said, no spin of you will.
and thats not a very tempting offer I have to admit, its worth nothing to most sane people in the world :P
fine then, explain what the book said. though its not my problem if you believe all the Jews left before the holocaust, because I know that is wrong and I personally couldnt care less what you say, since I don't trust holocause deniers.Darkman2007well, if you don't care what i have to say, what's the point of me explaining anything to you? (:
apparently thats what the book said, unless youre willing to explain what the book said, no spin of you will.Darkman2007take your argument with the book then, not me, because i never said what you claim i've said. (:
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]fine then, explain what the book said. though its not my problem if you believe all the Jews left before the holocaust, because I know that is wrong and I personally couldnt care less what you say, since I don't trust holocause deniers.BiancaDKwell, if you don't care what i have to say, what's the point of me explaining anything to you? (:
apparently thats what the book said, unless youre willing to explain what the book said, no spin of you will.Darkman2007take your argument with the book then, not me, because i never said what you claim i've said. (: you quoted that book , so what youre saying is that, you quote the book but don't believe in it? that makes no sense,
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]and you know this because you've been offering free bj's all around i assume? : D nope, but you did :P Im talking a relatively sane person and assessing what I would say to an offer like that :Pand thats not a very tempting offer I have to admit, its worth nothing to most sane people in the world :P
BiancaDK
This is amusing I must say, Bianca.
you quoted that book , so what youre saying is that, you quote the book but don't believe in it? that makes no sense, Darkman2007all i did with said book was pointing out that there is renowned literature that disagrees with your figures, so you see - it actually does make sense, although granted; one would have to be somewhat sensible in order for one to see that (:
nope, but you did :P Im talking a relatively sane person and assessing what I would say to an offer like that :PDarkman2007
hm, i'm thinking it's not so much a question of levels of sanity as it is levels of the gay though
not saying that you're gay though, that would get me moderated
just saying
the gay /nods
all i did with said book was pointing out that there is renowned literature that disagrees with your figures, so you see - it actually does make sense, although granted; one would have to be somewhat sensible in order for one to see that (:[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]you quoted that book , so what youre saying is that, you quote the book but don't believe in it? that makes no sense, BiancaDK
nope, but you did :P Im talking a relatively sane person and assessing what I would say to an offer like that :PDarkman2007
hm, i'm thinking it's not so much a question of levels of sanity as it is levels of the gay though
not saying that you're gay though, that would get me moderated
just saying
the gay /nods
Im sensible enough to know there are people who disagree with me , Im also sensible enough to reject those views which I know are wrong :P the simple reason for that , is that had I accepted those, I would be betraying holocaust survivors in my own family, as well as members of my family who are right now buried in mass graves. wheter you like it or not, the Jews were not helped alot, most of the Jews that survived , did so simply by not getting killed by chance, alot of the time because they were still considerd useful for forced labour (why do you think the Nazis made a preference to kill women and children first? because they considerd them physically weaker for forced labour). there were people who did help , but those are a minority, almost every country in mainland Europe had either a pro nazi regime to help the Nazis kill Jews, or there was violence by the locals against the Jews. and actually im straight , I just think its insane to have such offers from people I don't know, even if I know that was a joke (or at least I hope for your sanity it was joke ) :PIm sensible enough to know there are people who disagree with me , Im also sensible enough to reject those views which I know are wrong :P the simple reason for that , is that had I accepted those, I would be betraying holocaust survivors in my own family, as well as members of my family who are right now buried in mass graves. wheter you like it or not, the Jews were not helped alot, most of the Jews that survived , did so simply by not getting killed by chance, alot of the time because they were still considerd useful for forced labour (why do you think the Nazis made a preference to kill women and children first? because they considerd them physically weaker for forced labour). there were people who did help , but those are a minority, almost every country in mainland Europe had either a pro nazi regime to help the Nazis kill Jews, or there was violence by the locals against the Jews. and actually im straight , I just think its insane to have such offers from people I don't know, even if I know that was a joke (or at least I hope for your sanity it was joke ) :PDarkman2007
i don't think the jews were helped a lot, i think the jews coulda' gotten loads more help, but you said the europeans were busy slaughtering jews, which i'll agree that many were, but far from everyone. (: that's all i'm saying! : P can you accept this? ;d
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]Im sensible enough to know there are people who disagree with me , Im also sensible enough to reject those views which I know are wrong :P the simple reason for that , is that had I accepted those, I would be betraying holocaust survivors in my own family, as well as members of my family who are right now buried in mass graves. wheter you like it or not, the Jews were not helped alot, most of the Jews that survived , did so simply by not getting killed by chance, alot of the time because they were still considerd useful for forced labour (why do you think the Nazis made a preference to kill women and children first? because they considerd them physically weaker for forced labour). there were people who did help , but those are a minority, almost every country in mainland Europe had either a pro nazi regime to help the Nazis kill Jews, or there was violence by the locals against the Jews. and actually im straight , I just think its insane to have such offers from people I don't know, even if I know that was a joke (or at least I hope for your sanity it was joke ) :PBiancaDK
i don't think the jews were helped a lot, i think the jews coulda' gotten loads more help, but you said the europeans were busy slaughtering jews, which i'll agree that many were, but far from everyone. (: that's all i'm saying! : P can you accept this? ;d
I didn't say every European was killing Jews, I said there were many more who killed Jews then there were who saved them
I also said the majority of people (what you could call the silent majority) , were either too scared to say anything, or simple did not care one way or the other.
can you accept this?
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]
can you accept this?
BiancaDK
no, that would be silly ;d
please explain why
unless of course youre aruging with me for the sake or argument rather then for actual history
please explain why[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BiancaDK"]
no, that would be silly ;d
BiancaDK
because i have no reason to do so : D
youre not talking sense, you have no reason to do what?
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]Im sensible enough to know there are people who disagree with me , Im also sensible enough to reject those views which I know are wrong :P the simple reason for that , is that had I accepted those, I would be betraying holocaust survivors in my own family, as well as members of my family who are right now buried in mass graves. wheter you like it or not, the Jews were not helped alot, most of the Jews that survived , did so simply by not getting killed by chance, alot of the time because they were still considerd useful for forced labour (why do you think the Nazis made a preference to kill women and children first? because they considerd them physically weaker for forced labour). there were people who did help , but those are a minority, almost every country in mainland Europe had either a pro nazi regime to help the Nazis kill Jews, or there was violence by the locals against the Jews. and actually im straight , I just think its insane to have such offers from people I don't know, even if I know that was a joke (or at least I hope for your sanity it was joke ) :PBiancaDK
i don't think the jews were helped a lot, i think the jews coulda' gotten loads more help, but you said the europeans were busy slaughtering jews, which i'll agree that many were, but far from everyone. (: that's all i'm saying! : P can you accept this? ;d
Um, I'm a little late to the party so forgive me if I'm missing a good part of the argument, but my short take:
World War Two was pretty much exactly like World War One, that is a war that seemed imperialist in nature and was set off when one country violated a DMZ. Britain, the U.S., and France all went to war basically over borders and German aggression, not because they were intent on helping the German Jewish population.
As to what they did and didn't know, who can say. They did have Mein Kampf, Hitler's views were widely known, and the German Jews were being openly discriminated against at the time. Still, it's hard to say whether or not Hitler was actively exterminating Jews. What you can say is that no one really cared. For one, anti-semitism was ingrained in European culture for a very long time, most countries had only recently rescinded laws that systematically discriminated against Jews, and incidents like the Dreyfuss Affair in France weren't that far off either. Jews, at that time, were a distinct minority in Europe that was often discriminated against with ease. Perhaps most Europeans wouldn't have approved of mass exterminations, but a good portion of the population looked the other way when Hitler was courdoning Jews off in slums. That ties in with two, when the European powers were appeasing Hitler they knew his views, again Mein Kampf was out there, but they gave him land anyways. If this was some valorous war to free an oppressed people, then it doesn't make sense to give in to the oppressor until he starts taking European land.
The fact is that anti-semitism was very prevalent all throughout Europe at the time, which probably made Hitler's views seem less extreme. Secondly, the evidence distinctly points to the plight of the Jews being a minor issue in the war equations, if one at all. Lastly, remember that we're looking at this through history's lens. Of course we can look back now, with the knowledge that there were extermination camps, and say, "oh look, we were fighting for a righteous cause," but that's dependent on knowledge we gained after the fact. The Allied forces were saviors only by happenstance, they defeated an enemy that happened to be killing an entire people, but that was not why they were fighting them. Perhaps unintended consequences of intended actions can, at times, be to the benefit of all humanity.
[QUOTE="mayceV"]the IDf has repeatdly been reported to be hiding behiend palestians and using them as human shields attacked ambulances and medical personal directly. you claim that hamas is hiding and that is some sort of excuse to commit war crimes? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZgNy46aTQ&feature=relmfu watch that and tell me that Isreal isn't terrorizing the palestinian civilians and is searching for hamas operatives. did you know they hit over half the hospitals in gaza? uzed white phosphrus on civilian buildings? Your ambulance story could be legit but when you have people loaded into them then do you really think its for fighting purposes? the IDF doesn't care for the civilians and gets a free pass to do to the palestians what ever they want. don't try defedning the IDF's actions in Gaza because it was indescriminat killing. watch that video. bombs were dropped directly into the courtyards of peoples homes while they were outside. I'm not gonna list what happns in that video- Just watch it from start to end. As for compensation for the jews, i believe they deserve compensation. no one should be oush off thier land everyone is equal you're right. however just because isrealis were wronged doesn't give them to the right to wrong the palestinians.Darkman2007exactly two wrongs don't make a right, but that is the past, you can't change it , which is why my plan is the most fair, the Jews get compensation, and from that around 1/4 will go to the Palestinians, or however much the compensation for them goes to. like I said, the amount of land and property stolen from us is 4 times what the Palestinians lost, so there is more then enough. technically my family should get compensation as well from Morocco, my great grandad owned a furniture factory and shop in Marrakesh, the family lived well, the my grandma went to private school , and they even had a caretaker for the children, they weren't rich , but they lived well. now my great grandfather didn't get any money or compensation for the factory or shop which he had , by law , to leave beheind, he also got no money for the property which he was forced to live behined , so I should get money as well. sadly he died last year so he isnt getting anything. and if anyone tells you the Jews all left because of zionism they are talking rubbish , there was some zionism , but who in their right mind would leave a relatively comfortable life, have his property and land taken from (with no money given for that land and property) him and go live in Israel which at the time was suffering from food shortages. if Israel is expected to take care of the several million Palestninan refugees, the Arab world can take care of the 3.5 million Jews from the Arab world and their decendents. and again , I never said any of those things don't happen , the majority of what you said was right, thats the thing, we conduct inquiries , and if someone is found guilty, he gets punished, while Hamas celebrate if they kill civilans (they were giving out sweets to children in Rafiah and Gaza due to the murder of the Forgel family a few months ago , when 3 children , including a little baby , were stabbed by 2 Palestinians), I don't , and I would like to see Hamas appoligising and punishing any of their members for killing my people. problem is with Isreali inquiries is that durring theentire siege on Gaza there aparently was 1 war crime. an IDF soldier stole a credit card... come on even the most blind Isreali suporter would know that's complete BS. Also IDK how the compensation would work but I wouldn't want thevalue of 150 dunams to be slashed to 37.5 that isn't fair in any way. do you still have the deeds? if you do then you can demand it I think. but also the same thing can be said for the palestians that were forced off thier lnd in 1948. you say there are 1000000 arabs? but that's after two generations, arabs traditionally have like 4-6 kids(my grandma on my moms side had 11 and on my dad's side 6). so there were many expelled off thier land( no other way I'm serious Arabs spawn armies of children wether they can afford to feed them or not it's just our culture). It probably wasn't as bad as the Jewish expepusion but it certianlly didhappen I mean in my village I doubt all 7000 would abbandon a village older than Abraham himself it doesn't make sense. sothe expusiongoes both ways. Thing is the Land we had is probably extremely expensive now( itsnear tel aviv). IDk how they'll do the compesnsation since we obviously can't take the land to ourselves (its built up now).
I see Israeli security forces doing their job. I don't see any "beating". I don't see anything unreasonable with the actions of the soldiers and I see signs that the video may have been edited.
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="mayceV"]the IDf has repeatdly been reported to be hiding behiend palestians and using them as human shields attacked ambulances and medical personal directly. you claim that hamas is hiding and that is some sort of excuse to commit war crimes? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZgNy46aTQ&feature=relmfu watch that and tell me that Isreal isn't terrorizing the palestinian civilians and is searching for hamas operatives. did you know they hit over half the hospitals in gaza? uzed white phosphrus on civilian buildings? Your ambulance story could be legit but when you have people loaded into them then do you really think its for fighting purposes? the IDF doesn't care for the civilians and gets a free pass to do to the palestians what ever they want. don't try defedning the IDF's actions in Gaza because it was indescriminat killing. watch that video. bombs were dropped directly into the courtyards of peoples homes while they were outside. I'm not gonna list what happns in that video- Just watch it from start to end. As for compensation for the jews, i believe they deserve compensation. no one should be oush off thier land everyone is equal you're right. however just because isrealis were wronged doesn't give them to the right to wrong the palestinians.mayceVexactly two wrongs don't make a right, but that is the past, you can't change it , which is why my plan is the most fair, the Jews get compensation, and from that around 1/4 will go to the Palestinians, or however much the compensation for them goes to. like I said, the amount of land and property stolen from us is 4 times what the Palestinians lost, so there is more then enough. technically my family should get compensation as well from Morocco, my great grandad owned a furniture factory and shop in Marrakesh, the family lived well, the my grandma went to private school , and they even had a caretaker for the children, they weren't rich , but they lived well. now my great grandfather didn't get any money or compensation for the factory or shop which he had , by law , to leave beheind, he also got no money for the property which he was forced to live behined , so I should get money as well. sadly he died last year so he isnt getting anything. and if anyone tells you the Jews all left because of zionism they are talking rubbish , there was some zionism , but who in their right mind would leave a relatively comfortable life, have his property and land taken from (with no money given for that land and property) him and go live in Israel which at the time was suffering from food shortages. if Israel is expected to take care of the several million Palestninan refugees, the Arab world can take care of the 3.5 million Jews from the Arab world and their decendents. and again , I never said any of those things don't happen , the majority of what you said was right, thats the thing, we conduct inquiries , and if someone is found guilty, he gets punished, while Hamas celebrate if they kill civilans (they were giving out sweets to children in Rafiah and Gaza due to the murder of the Forgel family a few months ago , when 3 children , including a little baby , were stabbed by 2 Palestinians), I don't , and I would like to see Hamas appoligising and punishing any of their members for killing my people. problem is with Isreali inquiries is that durring theentire siege on Gaza there aparently was 1 war crime. an IDF soldier stole a credit card... come on even the most blind Isreali suporter would know that's complete BS. Also IDK how the compensation would work but I wouldn't want thevalue of 150 dunams to be slashed to 37.5 that is fair in any way. do you still have the deeds? if you do then you can demand it I think. but also the same thing can be said for the palestians that were forced off thier lnd in 1948. you say there are 1000000 arabs? but that's after two generations, arabs traditionally have like 4-6 kids(my grandma on my moms side had 11 and on my dad's side 6). so there were many expelled off thier land( no other way I'm serious Arab spawn armies of children wether they can afford to feed them ornot it's just our culture). It probably wasn't as bad as the Jewish expepusion but it certianlly didhappen I mean in my village I doubt all 7000 would abbandon a village older than Abraham himself it doesn't make sense. so it goes both ways. Thing is the Land we had is probably extremely expensive now( its under tel aviv). IDk how they'll do the compesnsation and since we obviously can't take the land to ourselves ( its built up now). whatever compensation you want, any compensation I get will be more, it doesnt matter if the land is expensive or not , there will be more then enough to pay. if one is needed, an independent commision can be established to figure out how much compensation everybody gets, its the fairest solution to everything. and nobody has their deeds or keys to their house, how could they? they gave the keys to local officials, policemen and other governement figures, it was the laws in those countries at the time, that when a Jew leaves/gets evicted, he gives the deeds and almost all his property to the state (those governements made billions in stolen property) its ironic, but its the Jews from Mizrachi and Sephardic communities (ie , Middle East and North Africa) are the ones who vote for the right wing parties the most in Israel, though they also tend to be traditionally worse off then the Ashkenazi Jews (though its nowhere near as bad as it was 30 years ago) if the Arabs want compensation from me. fine, but I want compensation from them . and nobody denies the Palestinian Arabs were expelled/ran away/left hoping to return (its a combination of all 3), but if I went to ask any Arab leader for compensation , he would deny there were ever Jews in his country, and thus there is no compensation. after all , there are only a few thousand Jews left now in the Middle East (around 30 thousand more in Iran) , down from a million 60 years ago , so it seems perfectly plausable to cover it up. whats worse is that while Israel did its best to absorb our refugee problems, the Arab world did nothing for the Palestinians, instead keeping them in misery for years and using them as political tools (you can't deny that) and again , if you want deeper investigations on the Israeli side, you have to be moral on both sides, and demand that Hamas do the exact same thing, they too have more then enough blood on their hands.
It's a shame to see a soldier from any nation do this to a woman.HexedPelicanExactly, there is no circumstance where this kind of treatment can be allowed. this is not how a human treats another human, simply put.
[QUOTE="HexedPelican"]It's a shame to see a soldier from any nation do this to a woman.GameGuy642003Exactly, there is no circumstance where this kind of treatment can be allowed. this is not how a human treats another human, simply put. Lol yes it is if women or men come and disturb police and disturbs them in their jobs they sure as h*** shouldn't just stand there and kindly ask them to leave for 1 hour! It'll start with that and end with anarchy... U need to have respect for people who risk their life to save people like police, doctors, firemen and soldiers of Israel.
It's a shame to see a soldier from any nation do this to a woman.HexedPelican
It's a shame that people automatically assume the soldier is at fault without knowing what was going on.
[QUOTE="HexedPelican"]It's a shame to see a soldier from any nation do this to a woman.airshocker
It's a shame that people automatically assume the soldier is at fault without knowing what was going on.
True but don't you think they could of used less force on a woman?True but don't you think they could of used less force on a woman? HexedPelican
That's how every security professional in the world is trained to handle someone they consider a threat. They didn't beat her, they forcefully moved her.
What's the problem here? The crowd was being EXTREMELY aggressive. We should all be thankful the soldiers didn't decide to shoot them with rubber bullets or bean-bags.
[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"][QUOTE="HexedPelican"]It's a shame to see a soldier from any nation do this to a woman.charlesdarwin55Exactly, there is no circumstance where this kind of treatment can be allowed. this is not how a human treats another human, simply put. Lol yes it is if women or men come and disturb police and disturbs them in their jobs they sure as h*** shouldn't just stand there and kindly ask them to leave for 1 hour! It'll start with that and end with anarchy... U need to have respect for people who risk their life to save people like police, doctors, firemen and soldiers of Israel. Well thats not really my point, and as you could see in the video I'm sure this was no "disturbing the peace" event. My original post still stands.
[QUOTE="charlesdarwin55"][QUOTE="GameGuy642003"] Exactly, there is no circumstance where this kind of treatment can be allowed. this is not how a human treats another human, simply put.GameGuy642003Lol yes it is if women or men come and disturb police and disturbs them in their jobs they sure as h*** shouldn't just stand there and kindly ask them to leave for 1 hour! It'll start with that and end with anarchy... U need to have respect for people who risk their life to save people like police, doctors, firemen and soldiers of Israel. Well thats not really my point, and as you could see in the video I'm sure this was no "disturbing the peace" event. My original post still stands. The video is clearly edited, nevertheless it was probably an illegal demonstration.
[QUOTE="airshocker"][QUOTE="HexedPelican"]It's a shame to see a soldier from any nation do this to a woman.HexedPelican
It's a shame that people automatically assume the soldier is at fault without knowing what was going on.
True but don't you think they could of used less force on a woman? sometimes its very difficult to keep your cool when youre a soldier like this, not saying it was necessarily right as I have no idea what happend before or after, but soldiers sometimes do incredibly stupid things out in the field. arguably Israel's Yamam force are more appropriate for this type of situation , but not only are there not really enough of them , but they don't operate much outside of Israel. actually, in Israel the main criticism over last year's Turkish boats affair was that the wrong military units were sent, rather then anything to do with interceptiing the ship (which was generally well supported)A.) as has been said before. we have no idea what led up to the events in this video. without that context anything else is blind speculation.
B.) this video is edited to hell. so again this doesnt allow for proper analyzation of the actions of the soliders or any others in the video.
C.) both sides of this conflict are composed of idiots (i dont mean the one in the video, but this whole palestine, israel conflict, no one is willing to cooperate and both sides are run by corrupt politics)
short version. i just dont care anymore
This has probably already been said before, since there are 20 pages, but there's a gunshot at 0:24-0:25.
what youre hearing could be anything, it could be tear gas being fired too ,exactly for the purpose of dispersing them without live fire. it could also be rubber bullets.This has probably already been said before, since there are 20 pages, but there's a gunshot at 0:24-0:25.
ROFLCOPTER603
[QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]what youre hearing could be anything, it could be tear gas being fired too ,exactly for the purpose of dispersing them without live fire. it could also be rubber bullets.This has probably already been said before, since there are 20 pages, but there's a gunshot at 0:24-0:25.
Darkman2007
These are palestinians they're attacking right?If soI doubt it's rubber bullets.
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