Moral inversion that's become widely-accepted.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] Second bio fail, all species of whales have bigger brains than humans; does that make them smarter than us? Dolphins brain size rivals humans? Does that make them as smart as us. Please don't talk on what you don't know; brain size has no affect on intelligence; brain structure does. I always end up arguing about facts when I debate conservatives.the_new_guy_92

But still you're saying we are no better then an animal that has a "brain structure" inferior to our own..?

No i believe you missed the point..

Another poster was likening us to animals...

Why am I getting an image of a kid or even worse an adult that has never been in a relationship when I think of the TC?

the_new_guy_92

Because you're used to people who compromise their morals and ethics in order to get some ass, or to get ahead in life. I am stubborn, and I am young (24), but I have been in several relationships, and I see the light when I compare the issues of today with what is in the Bible (specifically the new testament). I have many flaws, but unlike most people, I try to act based on the bigger picture.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]Just curious, TC, are you morally opposed to masturbation too, and if so, why? I'm only asking to get a sense of how much of your view is grounded in religious doctrine.hartsickdiscipl

No, I'm not morally opposed to masturbation Masturbation is, IMO, what is supposed to "hold us over" until we find the mate that's right. Anything in excess is, of course, detrimental.

I still don't really get why anything more would be detrimental, though I accept that sex without any sense of responsibility at all is dumb and sometimes harmful. I mean, it's not like you have X number of orgasms, so you should save them all for the partner you love the most, and in my experience, sex gets better the more you practice.

TBH, (and I know you're not going to like this view) couldn't your earlier sexual exploits be seen as beneficial additional practice to give your final partner even more pleasure?

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

But still you're saying we are no better then an animal that has a "brain structure" inferior to our own..?

hartsickdiscipl

"Let progress mean that just because we can do a thing, does not mean that we must do that thing." I love this quote.. It's from a movie, but it makes so much sense. Retraint and the power of choice is part of what makes us human. When we act out against the things that make us different from the rest of the animal kingdom, we take away what makes us human.

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"]

Why am I getting an image of a kid or even worse an adult that has never been in a relationship when I think of the TC?

hartsickdiscipl

Because you're used to people who compromise their morals and ethics in order to get some ass, or to get ahead in life. I am stubborn, and I am young (24), but I have been in several relationships, and I see the light when I compare the issues of today with what is in the Bible (specifically the new testament). I have many flaws, but unlike most people, I try to act based on the bigger picture.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]Just curious, TC, are you morally opposed to masturbation too, and if so, why? I'm only asking to get a sense of how much of your view is grounded in religious doctrine.mattbbpl

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

But still you're saying we are no better then an animal that has a "brain structure" inferior to our own..?

Xx_Hopeless_xX

No i believe you missed the point..

Another poster was likening us to animals...

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] Can I displace,kill, dominate this animal? Then I'm better than it. Superiority is based on strength and intelligence; not who decides to be monogamous and who doesn't. By that logic sparrow must be smarter than dolphins(the smartest creatures on earth behind humans) because they're monogamous? You argument isn't built on any substantial facts. the_new_guy_92

No i believe you missed the point..

Another poster was likening us to animals...

Ok, look at the other poster that was likening our sexuality to that of "mammals"..that's who it was directed at..

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

No i believe you missed the point..

Another poster was likening us to animals...

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Ok, look at the other poster that was likening our sexuality to that of "mammals"..that's who it was directed at..

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]Just curious, TC, are you morally opposed to masturbation too, and if so, why? I'm only asking to get a sense of how much of your view is grounded in religious doctrine.jimmyjammer69

Yes, there is a scripture related to that. I avoid that sin by casting seed in the grass instead :P

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]Just curious, TC, are you morally opposed to masturbation too, and if so, why? I'm only asking to get a sense of how much of your view is grounded in religious doctrine.jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] "But still you're saying we are no better then an animal that has a "brain structure" inferior to our own." those are your words but it makes no sense, because there are animals that are monogamous that aren't nearly as smart as some that aren't monogamous. How does intelligence/superiority tie into monogamy in any way?the_new_guy_92

Ok, look at the other poster that was likening our sexuality to that of "mammals"..that's who it was directed at..

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="clayron"] If you read the bible, early on...not a lot of people were monogamous. Lots of men had a wife...and concubines. Even the great Abraham slept with more than one woman. clayron

Yeah, he would be ONE OF THE EXAMPLES I REFERRED TO IN MY POST. Yet in the end, mankind as a whole didn't end up living that way, taking many wives. Even down to this day, people will admit that their heart desires one true love, and one mate. They just don't want to wait for it, search for it, or be disciplined enough to honor it once they find it.

I didn't specifically refer to Abraham. I didn't put anything about Biblical examples in my original post either, but in one of my more recent ones.

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Ok, look at the other poster that was likening our sexuality to that of "mammals"..that's who it was directed at..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Ok, look at the other poster that was likening our sexuality to that of "mammals"..that's who it was directed at..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

I knew what you were getting at.. even if nobody else here did. The ability, and in fact often the DESIRE to overcome our basic instincts is what makes us different as a species.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] that was methe_new_guy_92

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

I think the idea is to temper your instincts with intelligence and reasoning. In this case, my own personal reasoning leads me to believe that more purity is better.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] that was mehartsickdiscipl

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

I knew what you were getting at.. even if nobody else here did. The ability, and in fact often the DESIRE to overcome our basic instincts is what makes us different as a species.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

And to the people who say that people aren't "damaged goods" if they have too much non-committed sex.. IMO, you're just wrong. Maybe in denial or something.

To those who compare any part of this discussion to driving a car, or to anything else with statements like- "well i might get in an accident if I drive a car, so should I just not drive a car?".. Wake up. You have to drive a car to get to work, or use some other means of transport. You don't have to have sex before you're married. End of argument. In fact, you don't even HAVE to have sex to have a child anymore! But the act was created for this purpose, so let's use it for this purpose.. or at least NOT use it in situations where we know we won't be happy with the consequences if someone DOES get pregnant. I think using birth control as a way around abstinence is the equivalent of jumping through rings of fire because it FEELS good, wearing a rubber suit that MIGHT protect you from getting burned, but might not. If you wanted to avoid the risk, don't jump through the fire idiot.

hartsickdiscipl

• OK, then I can just say IMO you're wrong, where does that get either of us? You hvae a subjective view and you think that view is universally applicable. It's not, you have no evidence supporting that claim, end of discussion.
• You don't HAVE to have a job, you can choose to do nothing. You don't HAVE to drive, you can walk or take public transportation. Why take a car? Because it provides benefits that certain people enjoy over the benefits of walking or public transportation, even if it comes with increased risk. Having pre-marital sex provides benefits that certain people feel are more beneficial than the benefits of remaining abstinent, other people feel differently, so what's the point of getting wrapped up in other people's personal decisions?
• The act was not created, it is an evolutionary mutation of procreation that only exists because the creatures it manifested itself in were able to survive in their given environments. Besides, how we treat the act doesn't have much connection to what the act is, "intended," for. I'm drinking a soda right now and it tastes good, the act of drinking was not "intended" to stimulate my senses it was "intended" to hydrate me, but I drink to stimulate my senses anyways.

Your viewpoints indicate that you put little to no value on sexual morality. That being said, I have a hard time respecting your views. Would you care to explain to me how I would go about getting food and other necessities in today's society without a job and a way to get there?

What benefits of pre-marital sex override the obvious negatives that have been repeatedly listed in this thread? List some. List some that are more important than those provided to us by waiting for the right person.

I believe that the act of sex WAS created by someone with a keen understanding of the creatures that he/she had made. That's why it is pleasurable. Have you ever wondered why something that was supposedly an "evolutionary mutation" to pro-create feels so good? What part of evolution theory can account for that? A man and woman could simply mate and get it over with.. but that's not how sex turned out.

The fact that people feel jealousy and a sense of discomfort when they're faced with situations where they have to interact with an "EX" or someone with whom they've been intimate but are no longer is no accident. It's a natural human reaction, and I say it's because we were only intended to have 1 mate. This is not a learned behavior, this is inborn in humans. Obviously our world is far from perfect, and even someone with standards as stringent as my own cannot expect that many people are truly going to find the "right" person on the first go-around. The point is that we should be striving for this type of approach to sex, rather than disrespecting it the way we do now.

Frankly, I think that morality for the most part, and especially when invoked, is just a bull**** appeal at a universal code of conduct that really isn't there. It's the same thing as people invoking common sense in an argument, in reality there's very little commonality in sense or morality when you look across the entire human spectrum. I also wasn't saying people should quit their jobs, I'm just saying it's not a matter of necessity, more inconvience. There are many people that live, eat, and drink with no jobs right now, thousands around the world, so if we're going to define what is strictly necessary in order to continue to live then a job is not, it's simply a means by which to gain a better way of life.

For one, the universal negatives can be negated by responsible sex. Two, how do you know when you've found the right one if you have no idea what you're looking for? How do you know you've found the right one if you have no idea how you interact sexually? I've already listed the benefits, having sexual ecperience, knowing what you're looking for, knowing a bit more about the act itself. That being said, I'm not arguing that's it's necessarily better, I'm arguing that there are benefits and drawbacks, but different people view them different ways. Some people see certain aspects as drawbacks, others as benefits. Who am I to come and tell you that you SHOULD have pre-marital sex no matter how you feel about it? In the same way, who are you to tell everyone else that they should remain abstinent no matter how they feel about it?

I'm not going to get into an evolutionary debate, but I will say that a belief in god is not universal, therefore you cannot expect people to base their sexual morality on the supposition that sex was created for one purpose and one purpose alone. Also, the feeling of sex fitting into evolution can be explained by many factors, for one animals that found procreation uncomfortable enough to not procreate simply wouldn't, and would die off. Two, what defines pleasure? Who's to say our feeling of pleasure isn't in some part derived from the act and that there's no inherent pleasure to the action itself? Maybe it's pleasurable simply because of what it is.

I don't feel uncomfortable around my exes, not because of sex at least, and I certainly don't feel jealous, doesn't that refute your entire natural argument right there? If it were natural I would become jealous of whomever my exes were with no matter what. Yes, it is a learned behavior. Yes, it has more to do with an individual personality, an individual relationship, etc. and the proof I have for that is that not everybody reacts that way. The proof you have is that you react that way, that does not make it natural or universal.

if you choose to get married today, you're more than likely just being tied down to a used product anyways!

If people weren't all screwed-up and down 50 times before they got married, the marriages would work better because the physical intimacy would be valued much more, but the sex itself would be much more valuable.

-The devaluing of physical intimacy in a relationship (since so many of us have already had sex many times before)

hartsickdiscipl

1) If you think of women as products, the problem is with you, not society.

2) I'm not following your second point either. Having sex doesn't devalue it, on the contrary, in my experience the more you have the more you appreciate it. It just depends on with who.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"] What religious doctrines prohibit masturbationmattbbpl

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Ok, look at the other poster that was likening our sexuality to that of "mammals"..that's who it was directed at..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

So overcoming basic instincts is always bad? When I'm hungry I should just not eat because that would be giving into a basic insticnt. You're also insinuating that having sex before marriage is always purely instinctual, it's not. There can be a lot of intellgence and emotion that goes into having pre-marital sex, I would argue more than marital sex because whereas marital sex is largely about procreation, a natural instinct, pre-marital sex is more often about something more complex than that.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"] What religious doctrines prohibit masturbationhartsickdiscipl

Yes, there is a scripture related to that. I avoid that sin by casting seed in the grass instead :P

I remember when sex used to be a beautiful and self-sacrificing thing...

Now, it's all lust, desire, etc.

We're not even that different from animals now.

It's sad.

I've absolutely no idea. I'm betting there's something out there in some religion though... Come to think of it, wasn't there something about not casting seed upon barren land somewhere in the Bible?jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

I knew what you were getting at.. even if nobody else here did. The ability, and in fact often the DESIRE to overcome our basic instincts is what makes us different as a species.

I remember when sex used to be a beautiful and self-sacrificing thing...

Now, it's all lust, desire, etc.

We're not even that different from animals now.

It's sad.

battlefront23

When do you remember sex as a beautiful and self-sacrificing act? Back in the 50's before those darn swinging sixties brought down the moral fabric of our society?

And we are animals – just pop down to you local club and watch the guys peacocking, not too dissimilar to any other mating ritual in the animal kingdom. Back in your day – the Victorian era – peacocking was just a little different, that's all

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I knew what you were getting at.. even if nobody else here did. The ability, and in fact often the DESIRE to overcome our basic instincts is what makes us different as a species.

mattbbpl

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] So everytime you agree with natural instinct, is that a bad thing?the_new_guy_92

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"]

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"] That seems like quite a twist of his words. How does possessing the ability to overcome instincts and that being a good thing mean that we should always overcome instincts? Seems like an awfully silly interpolation.mattbbpl

I havn't read these first 9 pages so what im about to say has probably already been said.... TC you and a ton of other people seem to place waaaay to much importance and value in sex...its just sex...something humans use to procreate, and enjoy themselves...its natural, humans are supposed to do it. Humans are not supposed to deny themselves sex just for an emotional attachment that comes later on, that's a new thing created by society. You think cavemen were saving themselves for marriage? Sex with random partners devalues sex? I guess if thats how you wanna look at it. Idk why people put sex on such a high pedestal in the first place though. Sex will be 100x better when you do with someone you care about regardless if you've had sex with people you didn't care about. Marriage is awesome...finding the right person and sticking by them because you love and care about them....the sex is not an important part of it, its just an activity. People get married because of reasons entirely different than sex. Sex is not the primary focus of marriage. MrPurpz

The idea that sex and love are linked is not "new." Nor is it "new" that we should wait for sex until we are with our permanent partner. Using sex purely as a form of pleasure is wrong, IMO. It is hollow, it is soulless. This makes us no better than animals. To use sex as an expression of love makes both the physical intimacy and the relationship all the more special. I don't believe that "cavemen" were the same species as us, nor do I think that we evolved directly from them. I aim to make the most of something as special as marriage, or any union between 2 people who are in love. That being said, if I can show a little restraint and only use sex which absolutely IS part of love as part of that committed relationship, I'm going to do it.

Of course you don't know why people put sex on such a high pedestal, since society has devalued it so much that it's a wonder anybody views it as sacred anymore. The world we are surrounded by has made sex something very cheap. I don't blame you... it's the way of the world.

Why do you think so many people lose their virginity, and then later on regret it.. saying "I wish I had waited so I could share this with someone I'm going to be with for a long time?"

"It's just an activity?" No.. it's not. It's an activity that stirs the heart and soul in a way that nothing else can.. and like anything else- the longer you wait, the better it is when you finally get to enjoy it. It's even better when 2 people love each other, and have been waiting to enjoy it together. How can you say that it's "just an activity" when it is the very act that creates new life? How far we have fallen...

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] Then the issue of basic instinct versus humanity, shouldn't have ever entered this argument. People shouldn't be using something as minuscule as monogamy as an indicator of human superiority.

the_new_guy_92

I've never put much stock in philosophy, but his assertion isn't an uncommon one even among respected circles.

What is the reward of premarital sex? Or to be a little more forgiving.. what is the reward of sex outside of a committed, monogamous relationship? There is no reward, only momentary pleasure. I can't believe that people would actually try to argue that having casual sex, or sex outside of a committed relationship doesn't cheapen and devalue it. This completely blows my mind. Of course we have base instincts to mate with the opposite sex. Hell, I turn into a big pervert when I see a hot girl walk by. But it is my ability to override my animal urges and see the value in sharing sex (which is mating.. why would I want to go around mating with everyone anyways?) with someone with whom I am deeply emotionally attached to that makes me something more than an animal.

[QUOTE="MrPurpz"]I havn't read these first 9 pages so what im about to say has probably already been said.... TC you and a ton of other people seem to place waaaay to much importance and value in sex...its just sex...something humans use to procreate, and enjoy themselves...its natural, humans are supposed to do it. Humans are not supposed to deny themselves sex just for an emotional attachment that comes later on, that's a new thing created by society. You think cavemen were saving themselves for marriage? Sex with random partners devalues sex? I guess if thats how you wanna look at it. Idk why people put sex on such a high pedestal in the first place though. Sex will be 100x better when you do with someone you care about regardless if you've had sex with people you didn't care about. Marriage is awesome...finding the right person and sticking by them because you love and care about them....the sex is not an important part of it, its just an activity. People get married because of reasons entirely different than sex. Sex is not the primary focus of marriage. hartsickdiscipl

The idea that sex and love are linked is not "new." Nor is it "new" that we should wait for sex until we are with our permanent partner. Using sex purely as a form of pleasure is wrong, IMO. It is hollow, it is soulless. This makes us no better than animals. To use sex as an expression of love makes both the physical intimacy and the relationship all the more special. I don't believe that "cavemen" were the same species as us, nor do I think that we evolved directly from them. I aim to make the most of something as special as marriage, or any union between 2 people who are in love. That being said, if I can show a little restraint and only use sex which absolutely IS part of love as part of that committed relationship, I'm going to do it.

Of course you don't know why people put sex on such a high pedestal, since society has devalued it so much that it's a wonder anybody views it as sacred anymore. The world we are surrounded by has made sex something very cheap. I don't blame you... it's the way of the world.

Why do you think so many people lose their virginity, and then later on regret it.. saying "I wish I had waited so I could share this with someone I'm going to be with for a long time?"

"It's just an activity?" No.. it's not. It's an activity that stirs the heart and soul in a way that nothing else can.. and like anything else- the longer you wait, the better it is when you finally get to enjoy it. It's even better when 2 people love each other, and have been waiting to enjoy it together. How can you say that it's "just an activity" when it is the very act that creates new life? How far we have fallen...

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"] It almost seems like your purposely twisting/missing what he's saying. He wasn't using monogomy as an indicator of superiority,but rather the ability to use intellectual reason to override our base instincts. This reasoning ability has been theorized by many philosophers to be a key defining difference between man and animal.

I've never put much stock in philosophy, but his assertion isn't an uncommon one even among respected circles. hartsickdiscipl

What is the reward of premarital sex? Or to be a little more forgiving.. what is the reward of sex outside of a committed, monogamous relationship? There is no reward, only momentary pleasure. I can't believe that people would actually try to argue that having casual sex, or sex outside of a committed relationship doesn't cheapen and devalue it. This completely blows my mind. Of course we have base instincts to mate with the opposite sex. Hell, I turn into a big pervert when I see a hot girl walk by. But it is my ability to override my animal urges and see the value in sharing sex (which is mating.. why would I want to go around mating with everyone anyways?) with someone with whom I am deeply emotionally attached to that makes me something more than an animal.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

While I obviously agree with the idea that rampant promiscuity is a bad thing, I do feel that you are romanticizing history and are thus more or less fantasizing about a period of time "back then" that really did not exist, ever. Marriage is about love today much more than it used to be. Go back a couple thousand years and you'll find that marriage effectively had absolutely nothing to do with love at all; the bride was effectively property to be given away to a man. The real reason why virginity was so highly prized was not because the women were so moral and upstanding and loving, but rather because the only way not to basically starve to death as an adult woman back then was to be married to a man who would provide to you. If it was discovered that an unmarried woman was not a virgin, she would be screwed, as no one would want to marry her over a virgin lady. This was the entire reason why you get seemingly odd codes of law from back then such as that a rapist must marry the one he defiled; this was actually a rule that benefited the woman, because it ensured that she would have a husband.

You're more than welcome to decry promiscuity in society, but you do it a terrible injustice by acting as though there was a period of time in the mists of history where everyone was upstanding and moral. Everything in the world changes except for one thing: humans.

sSubZerOo

Hehe yeah always makes me chuckle of what people thought European Knights were like.. They think of the dashing and just Lancelot, when infact they were far more similar to a modern day mob enforcer..

[QUOTE="MrPurpz"]I havn't read these first 9 pages so what im about to say has probably already been said.... TC you and a ton of other people seem to place waaaay to much importance and value in sex...its just sex...something humans use to procreate, and enjoy themselves...its natural, humans are supposed to do it. Humans are not supposed to deny themselves sex just for an emotional attachment that comes later on, that's a new thing created by society. You think cavemen were saving themselves for marriage? Sex with random partners devalues sex? I guess if thats how you wanna look at it. Idk why people put sex on such a high pedestal in the first place though. Sex will be 100x better when you do with someone you care about regardless if you've had sex with people you didn't care about. Marriage is awesome...finding the right person and sticking by them because you love and care about them....the sex is not an important part of it, its just an activity. People get married because of reasons entirely different than sex. Sex is not the primary focus of marriage. hartsickdiscipl

The idea that sex and love are linked is not "new." Nor is it "new" that we should wait for sex until we are with our permanent partner. Using sex purely as a form of pleasure is wrong, IMO. It is hollow, it is soulless. This makes us no better than animals. To use sex as an expression of love makes both the physical intimacy and the relationship all the more special. I don't believe that "cavemen" were the same species as us, nor do I think that we evolved directly from them. I aim to make the most of something as special as marriage, or any union between 2 people who are in love. That being said, if I can show a little restraint and only use sex which absolutely IS part of love as part of that committed relationship, I'm going to do it.

Of course you don't know why people put sex on such a high pedestal, since society has devalued it so much that it's a wonder anybody views it as sacred anymore. The world we are surrounded by has made sex something very cheap. I don't blame you... it's the way of the world.

Why do you think so many people lose their virginity, and then later on regret it.. saying "I wish I had waited so I could share this with someone I'm going to be with for a long time?"

"It's just an activity?" No.. it's not. It's an activity that stirs the heart and soul in a way that nothing else can.. and like anything else- the longer you wait, the better it is when you finally get to enjoy it. It's even better when 2 people love each other, and have been waiting to enjoy it together. How can you say that it's "just an activity" when it is the very act that creates new life? How far we have fallen...

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="MrPurpz"]I havn't read these first 9 pages so what im about to say has probably already been said.... TC you and a ton of other people seem to place waaaay to much importance and value in sex...its just sex...something humans use to procreate, and enjoy themselves...its natural, humans are supposed to do it. Humans are not supposed to deny themselves sex just for an emotional attachment that comes later on, that's a new thing created by society. You think cavemen were saving themselves for marriage? Sex with random partners devalues sex? I guess if thats how you wanna look at it. Idk why people put sex on such a high pedestal in the first place though. Sex will be 100x better when you do with someone you care about regardless if you've had sex with people you didn't care about. Marriage is awesome...finding the right person and sticking by them because you love and care about them....the sex is not an important part of it, its just an activity. People get married because of reasons entirely different than sex. Sex is not the primary focus of marriage. the_new_guy_92

The idea that sex and love are linked is not "new." Nor is it "new" that we should wait for sex until we are with our permanent partner. Using sex purely as a form of pleasure is wrong, IMO. It is hollow, it is soulless. This makes us no better than animals. To use sex as an expression of love makes both the physical intimacy and the relationship all the more special. I don't believe that "cavemen" were the same species as us, nor do I think that we evolved directly from them. I aim to make the most of something as special as marriage, or any union between 2 people who are in love. That being said, if I can show a little restraint and only use sex which absolutely IS part of love as part of that committed relationship, I'm going to do it.

Of course you don't know why people put sex on such a high pedestal, since society has devalued it so much that it's a wonder anybody views it as sacred anymore. The world we are surrounded by has made sex something very cheap. I don't blame you... it's the way of the world.

Why do you think so many people lose their virginity, and then later on regret it.. saying "I wish I had waited so I could share this with someone I'm going to be with for a long time?"

"It's just an activity?" No.. it's not. It's an activity that stirs the heart and soul in a way that nothing else can.. and like anything else- the longer you wait, the better it is when you finally get to enjoy it. It's even better when 2 people love each other, and have been waiting to enjoy it together. How can you say that it's "just an activity" when it is the very act that creates new life? How far we have fallen...

Where in my last post did I say that people have to be married to be in love? However, if we're going to go down that path again..

-Sex is mating. Why mate and rely on man-made birth control measures to hope that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions? Namely, the creation of new life. If you're already in a committed (or married) relationship with the person you're mating with, you don't have to worry about it!

-There is no true safeguard against STDs. Sex with fewer partners=less risk of STDs being spread. Yes of course you can pick something up from the toilet seat at your local convenience store too.. But I doubt that STD would be on the toilet seat in the first place if someone was a little less promiscuous.

Guys and gals, I understand. Really, I do. You love your no-strings-attached pleasurefest.. who wouldn't? The way you see it, you can use birth control to make sure you don't have to deal with the consequences of your actions, and you don't see the problem with casual sex because to you- sex is just an activity.. like playing checkers. Wow. I guess I DON'T understand that last part. Playing checkers doesn't lead to the creation of new life if you don't use a condom while you're playing it.

I remember when sex used to be a beautiful and self-sacrificing thing...

Now, it's all lust, desire, etc.

We're not even that different from animals now.

It's sad.

battlefront23

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

The idea that sex and love are linked is not "new." Nor is it "new" that we should wait for sex until we are with our permanent partner. Using sex purely as a form of pleasure is wrong, IMO. It is hollow, it is soulless. This makes us no better than animals. To use sex as an expression of love makes both the physical intimacy and the relationship all the more special. I don't believe that "cavemen" were the same species as us, nor do I think that we evolved directly from them. I aim to make the most of something as special as marriage, or any union between 2 people who are in love. That being said, if I can show a little restraint and only use sex which absolutely IS part of love as part of that committed relationship, I'm going to do it.

Of course you don't know why people put sex on such a high pedestal, since society has devalued it so much that it's a wonder anybody views it as sacred anymore. The world we are surrounded by has made sex something very cheap. I don't blame you... it's the way of the world.

Why do you think so many people lose their virginity, and then later on regret it.. saying "I wish I had waited so I could share this with someone I'm going to be with for a long time?"

"It's just an activity?" No.. it's not. It's an activity that stirs the heart and soul in a way that nothing else can.. and like anything else- the longer you wait, the better it is when you finally get to enjoy it. It's even better when 2 people love each other, and have been waiting to enjoy it together. How can you say that it's "just an activity" when it is the very act that creates new life? How far we have fallen...

hartsickdiscipl

Where in my last post did I say that people have to be married to be in love? However, if we're going to go down that path again..

-Sex is mating. Why mate and rely on man-made birth control measures to hope that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions? Namely, the creation of new life. If you're already in a committed (or married) relationship with the person you're mating with, you don't have to worry about it!

-There is no true safeguard against STDs. Sex with fewer partners=less risk of STDs being spread. Yes of course you can pick something up from the toilet seat at your local convenience store too.. But I doubt that STD would be on the toilet seat in the first place if someone was a little less promiscuous.

Guys and gals, I understand. Really, I do. You love your no-strings-attached pleasurefest.. who wouldn't? The way you see it, you can use birth control to make sure you don't have to deal with the consequences of your actions, and you don't see the problem with casual sex because to you- sex is just an activity.. like playing checkers. Wow. I guess I DON'T understand that last part. Playing checkers doesn't lead to the creation of new life if you don't use a condom while you're playing it.

Let me put in simple terms that transcend cultural and religious barriers- Restricting yourself to one mate that you are committed to all but eliminates:

-unwanted pregnancies resulting from unmarried people having sex.

"Restricting yourself to one mate" doesn't mean that there won't be unwanted pregnancies in that relationship. Even if you were married, an unwanted pregnancy can happen any time -- remembering that not all married couples want kids.

-the emotional difficulties that children born from unmarried parents face. Especially when the parents don't stay together in any sort of committed relationship to raise the child (happens more often than not). Children naturally need to have a mother and a father. When one, the other, or both are missing, the child loses out.

There are many couples today who decide that they don't need marriage to validate their love for each other, and these couples still have kids who grow up to be healthy, normal adults. Marriage doesn't define your childs' emotional health -- parents do. Also, there are many children who have grown up with one parent and they couldn't be more normal. Children don't need to naturally have a mother and a father as long as they have a mother figure and a father figure in their lives. It doesn't have to be biological.

Assuming the sexual partners use "safe sex" and there is no pregnancy, you still face these issues that are very prevelant in society today:

-the spread of STDs from having multiple sex partners

If sexual partners are having "safe sex," as you said above, then the spread of STDs would be unlikely. Also, you don't have to have sexual intercourse to get an STD.

-Emotional issues that ARE inherent to people having multiple partners. When I say this, I am referring to the "boy, I feel like crap that I slept with that person I didn't love last night" feeling. Also- the loss of self-worth that self-respecting people feel when they give up their intimacy to someone who they later find out didn't take the act of sex as seriously as they did. Marriage helps to eliminate these problems, if it is USED CORRECTLY. Anything can be misused and trampled on, as marriage has been.

Marriage is a union between two people. Those people make that union unique to suit their needs and wants. The way you explain marriage here makes it seem like a cure for a horrible disease. And I dare to ask, what makes having multiple partners immoral? If you had more than one partner at the same time, and everyone in that "threesome," so to speak, knew that you had more than one partner and they all consented to that being okay, how is that wrong? It happens in marriage, too, all perfectly consenting adults aware of what's going on.

If anything, people shouldn't be getting married after meeting the first person you "fall in love" with because you have absolutely no idea how to function in a healthy relationship yet. Thankfully people can say, "Oh, I wish I didn't sleep with that person I did last night," instead of saying, "Oh, I wish I didn't sleep with my husband/wife last night." And if you are intimate with someone and you take it very seriously, and find out later that they didn't, you should probably refine your judgment.

I have made irrefutable arguments that sex only within committed relationships, and more specifically, marriages is beneficial to society. If you can come up with more relevant benefits to the sexual promescuity that is prevelant in today's society, be my guest. I didn't even address the "moral" side of "right and wrong" that is taught by religions in regards to sex. To those who don't believe in holy texts such as the Bible, consider this- Where did the IDEAS that murder, rape, theft, AND fornication, as well as infidelity come from? They came from religion, and from the writings such as those in the Bible and other holy texts across multiple cultures. So you choose to follow SOME of the ideas from these texts because you believe them to be black and white, right and wrong.. but not others?

There are both positive and negatives to marriage just like there is anything else. To one person, there are many benefits to having multiple partners. To another person, there are many benefits of having his/her one and only. The bible has not been around since the beginning of humanity. The bible is a human generated concept, just like marriage is. The idea of murder, rape, theft, fornication, and infedility did not originate in the bible. These ideas have been present ever since humanity has been present. The bible simply took these ideas and made them either right or wrong, depending on how the people who wrote the bible decided they wanted humanity to behave. To say that everything originated in the bible is a fallacy.

The simple answer for why our society has taken such a view of sex lies in the nature of humans. We seek pleasure, and we seek the easy and quick way to get it. The right way is often far from the easy way.

The right way for you, perhaps. But it is not THE right way. There is no right way. There are many right ways to do one thing.

hartsickdiscipl

[QUOTE="battlefront23"]

I remember when sex used to be a beautiful and self-sacrificing thing...

Now, it's all lust, desire, etc.

We're not even that different from animals now.

It's sad.

Lockedge

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] These were his exact words when referring to the fact monogamy has no part in human instinct. "But still you're saying we are no better then an animal that has a "brain structure" inferior to our own." He never mentioned intellectual reasoning anywhere in any of his post, so I don't know why you're dumping that in there. And even if he did, what would that have to do with this debate over the value of monogamy? People can't use intellectual reasoning to weigh the risk and reward of having premarital sex, and still decide that they would like to engage in premarital sex or what?the_new_guy_92

What is the reward of premarital sex? Or to be a little more forgiving.. what is the reward of sex outside of a committed, monogamous relationship? There is no reward, only momentary pleasure. I can't believe that people would actually try to argue that having casual sex, or sex outside of a committed relationship doesn't cheapen and devalue it. This completely blows my mind. Of course we have base instincts to mate with the opposite sex. Hell, I turn into a big pervert when I see a hot girl walk by. But it is my ability to override my animal urges and see the value in sharing sex (which is mating.. why would I want to go around mating with everyone anyways?) with someone with whom I am deeply emotionally attached to that makes me something more than an animal.

See, this is where we are very different. The fact that first-time sex is awkward and even painful is a beautiful thing. It's part of the experience. This is the problem with people today.. They focus only on the physical aspect of things, rather than the emotional and spiritual.. the things that give experiences true meaning. I see spiritual meaning (or lack of) in almost everything (no, this is not new for me.. I have thought this way for as long as I can remember). To me, I'd much rather be able to talk to my wife years down the road about our first time (too late for that), and how awkward and uncomfortable it was.. and laugh about it! If you're with someone that truly understands you, and loves you, they will appreciate sharing sex with you, whether it's the first time for both of you, or if you're a "pro" after you've been together a long time. If you love the person you're with, that overcomes the pain and awkwardness. I was lucky enough to experience that, albeit with someone who was less committed to me in the long run.

As far as the "social contract" goes.. I don't believe in that crap. If I really wanted to, I could approach the girl that I was having perverted thoughts about in such a way that I wouldn't get a harrassment suit filed against me. The thing that stops me is not fear of some legal reprisal, but the fact that I AM overriding my natural animal urge.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] LOL,most people have met never say "I wish I had waited so I could share this with someone I'm going to be with for a long time?" And you act like people can't be in love until they get married, like marriage is the defining sign of love. If it was we would see so many failed marriages.the_new_guy_92

Where in my last post did I say that people have to be married to be in love? However, if we're going to go down that path again..

-Sex is mating. Why mate and rely on man-made birth control measures to hope that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions? Namely, the creation of new life. If you're already in a committed (or married) relationship with the person you're mating with, you don't have to worry about it!

-There is no true safeguard against STDs. Sex with fewer partners=less risk of STDs being spread. Yes of course you can pick something up from the toilet seat at your local convenience store too.. But I doubt that STD would be on the toilet seat in the first place if someone was a little less promiscuous.

Guys and gals, I understand. Really, I do. You love your no-strings-attached pleasurefest.. who wouldn't? The way you see it, you can use birth control to make sure you don't have to deal with the consequences of your actions, and you don't see the problem with casual sex because to you- sex is just an activity.. like playing checkers. Wow. I guess I DON'T understand that last part. Playing checkers doesn't lead to the creation of new life if you don't use a condom while you're playing it.

I don't think you comprehend the "spirit" of a statement very well. Otherwise you would not be attempting to nitpick flaws in arguments that are essentially correct, if taken in context.

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

What is the reward of premarital sex? Or to be a little more forgiving.. what is the reward of sex outside of a committed, monogamous relationship? There is no reward, only momentary pleasure. I can't believe that people would actually try to argue that having casual sex, or sex outside of a committed relationship doesn't cheapen and devalue it. This completely blows my mind. Of course we have base instincts to mate with the opposite sex. Hell, I turn into a big pervert when I see a hot girl walk by. But it is my ability to override my animal urges and see the value in sharing sex (which is mating.. why would I want to go around mating with everyone anyways?) with someone with whom I am deeply emotionally attached to that makes me something more than an animal.

hartsickdiscipl

See, this is where we are very different. The fact that first-time sex is awkward and even painful is a beautiful thing. It's part of the experience. This is the problem with people today.. They focus only on the physical aspect of things, rather than the emotional and spiritual.. the things that give experiences true meaning. I see spiritual meaning (or lack of) in almost everything (no, this is not new for me.. I have thought this way for as long as I can remember). To me, I'd much rather be able to talk to my wife years down the road about our first time (too late for that), and how awkward and uncomfortable it was.. and laugh about it! If you're with someone that truly understands you, and loves you, they will appreciate sharing sex with you, whether it's the first time for both of you, or if you're a "pro" after you've been together a long time. If you love the person you're with, that overcomes the pain and awkwardness. I was lucky enough to experience that, albeit with someone who was less committed to me in the long run.

As far as the "social contract" goes.. I don't believe in that crap. If I really wanted to, I could approach the girl that I was having perverted thoughts about in such a way that I wouldn't get a harrassment suit filed against me. The thing that stops me is not fear of some legal reprisal, but the fact that I AM overriding my natural animal urge.

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Where in my last post did I say that people have to be married to be in love? However, if we're going to go down that path again..

-Sex is mating. Why mate and rely on man-made birth control measures to hope that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions? Namely, the creation of new life. If you're already in a committed (or married) relationship with the person you're mating with, you don't have to worry about it!

-There is no true safeguard against STDs. Sex with fewer partners=less risk of STDs being spread. Yes of course you can pick something up from the toilet seat at your local convenience store too.. But I doubt that STD would be on the toilet seat in the first place if someone was a little less promiscuous.

Guys and gals, I understand. Really, I do. You love your no-strings-attached pleasurefest.. who wouldn't? The way you see it, you can use birth control to make sure you don't have to deal with the consequences of your actions, and you don't see the problem with casual sex because to you- sex is just an activity.. like playing checkers. Wow. I guess I DON'T understand that last part. Playing checkers doesn't lead to the creation of new life if you don't use a condom while you're playing it.

hartsickdiscipl

I don't think you comprehend the "spirit" of a statement very well. Otherwise you would not be attempting to nitpick flaws in arguments that are essentially correct, if taken in context.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"] that was metheone86

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

So overcoming basic instincts is always bad? When I'm hungry I should just not eat because that would be giving into a basic insticnt. You're also insinuating that having sex before marriage is always purely instinctual, it's not. There can be a lot of intellgence and emotion that goes into having pre-marital sex, I would argue more than marital sex because whereas marital sex is largely about procreation, a natural instinct, pre-marital sex is more often about something more complex than that.

I can argue that marital sex is not merely an act of procreation..and that it contains much more emotion than pre-marital...as in pre-marital you do not expect to spend your life with this one person...she/he is a passing fancy...you may think you love them..you may convince yourself that you love him/her..but you will not spend your life with them in most cases...and that's what what true love is...taking a vow for better or for worse to devote yourself fully to this one person, physically and mentally, to do everything in your power to stay with him/her and only him/her and agree to tough out everything life throws at you together and get through it..

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Ah, well...you were saying that no other animals were monogomous...so i pointed out the sparrows..

And i was not tying them in...i was stating that by likening our sexuality to that of other mammals it makes you no better then they are..because you cannot even overcome your basic instincts..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

So overcoming basic instincts is always bad? When I'm hungry I should just not eat because that would be giving into a basic insticnt. You're also insinuating that having sex before marriage is always purely instinctual, it's not. There can be a lot of intellgence and emotion that goes into having pre-marital sex, I would argue more than marital sex because whereas marital sex is largely about procreation, a natural instinct, pre-marital sex is more often about something more complex than that.

I can argue that marital sex is not merely an act of procreation..and that it contains much more emotion than pre-marital...as in pre-marital you do not expect to spend your life with this one person...she/he is a passing fancy...you may think you love them..you may convince yourself that you love him/her..but you will not spend your life with them in most cases...and that's what what true love is...taking a vow for better or for worse to devote yourself fully to this one person, physically and mentally, to do everything in your power to stay with him/her and only him/her and agree to tough out everything life throws at you together and get through it..