Moral inversion that's become widely-accepted.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

So anyone who doesn't view marriage the same way as you simply isn't being logical?

Taking it out of context...it was part of a statment that was explaining how, if looked at logically..the previous statement would make more sense...

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]..but just look at it this way..what ages do people usually get married?..18-25..many are young and do not contemplate what the future may have in store for them...many rush into it for other reasons..and then there a some who cheat...but that's a whole different discussion..theone86

You don't really know how many people rush into them, you don't know their dynamics. There are psychiatrists who spend hours upon hours with couples and still can't nail down the exact dynamic of their relationships, what makes you think you can diagnose all these people with one broad stroke?

Well i believe i covered most of the general things that cause divorce..i was not in any way trying to diagnose people nor was i attempting figure out the dynamics of any relationship..

I'm sure you get your dose of love and fulfillment from your affairs...i look at long term..and the long term is that..more often then not...the relationships do not last all that long..and all those promises and whispers and proclamations of love were meaningless in the end...same could be said for marriage..but i still feel making vows before family and friends and such is more meaningful then making private vows to one another that you know will be broken...And let's be honest...how often to non-married couples actually intend to stay with one another for the rest of their lives and devote themselves to each other wholly...i wouldn't think that many..but again..who can say..Xx_Hopeless_xX

What you or I feel has no bearing on this discussion, different people feel different ways, I don't see what's so hard to accept about that. Relationships will last as long as they will last, that's no one's business except the people involved in them.

Then why did you feel the need to join this discussion..it is wholly about what people feel...and how others interpret...or percieve if you will..the whole topic of pre-marital sex..

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Thank you for posting your opinions, your misgivings about marriage, your numbness to the deeper meaning that sex CAN have with another person if it is treated a certain way. I don't blame it on anybody in particular.. I blame it on all of us. For anyone to look at the way our society has changed over the last half-century, and say that it is overall a good thing.. I don't even know what to say. It's scary. The increase in pre-marital sex, as well as extra-marital affairs is undeniable. Like I said in a previous post.. the very fact that fewer and fewer people are even getting out of high school with their virginity is enough to prove this.

GabuEx

As I already said... the "blame", if you wish to call it that, lies in the way in which marriage has become something that is no longer necessary for survival. It lies in the way in which women now have much greater bargaining power in the world, and such that they do not have to do everything they can to attain a husband who will take care of them for the rest of their lives. You want the society of old back, change that. Don't blame humans.

You cannot hope solve what you see as a problem if you not only do not understand it, but also appear not to even want to understand it. You have taken something that you see and have done nothing other than to simply assume without any evidence whatsoever what its cause is, and then to refuse to question that assumption. That is not a very good way to approach an issue.

provided you are safe and not promiscuous, there is no reason to abstain from pre-marital sex. It has nothing to do with morals; you can be in love with someone, and not be married to them, and still have sex and that is a beautiful thing. Not sharing that intimacy with someone simply because you're not married is just silly. And just because you love someone does not mean you should get married right then and there.

Marriage is also a good thing, but as far as how I view it, its essentially a social statement saying its ok to have kids.

People in love yet not married having a kid = bad from society's standpoint

People in love and married having a kid = good from society's standpoint.

mrbojangles25

I don't see anything wrong with a bit of safe promiscuity mind you… :P

I want to preface this semi-tirade with a statement- I have had pre-marital sex.

Ok, that's out of the way. :P Now, on to the real subject- How is it that we as a society have come to so widely accept pre-marital sex, and even casual sex as normal and acceptable, and yet those same people choose to get married?

One of the original priveleges of being married was to get to reach a level of physical and emotional intimacy with another person. The idea was that you DON'T have sex with people until you get married. This made marriage a much MORE desirable thing than it has become today, because it also included access to one of the most valuable and desirable things that a person can experience- sex.

In our world today, marriage is viewed as a burden as much as it is a privilege, partly because people think "oh crap, now that I'm married to this person, I'm not supposed to have sex with anyone else.. I liked it better when I could have sex with people without commitment. Boy it sucks being tied down."

Well NO **** Of course it feels like you're being tied down, because if you choose to get married today, you're more than likely just being tied down to a used product anyways! Such a high percentage of adults have had multiple sex partners that they weren't married to. If people weren't all screwed-up and down 50 times before they got married, the marriages would work better because the physical intimacy would be valued much more, but the sex itself would be much more valuable. The devaluing of physical intimacy in our society has created a huge moral inversion that is to blame for many problems that we face.. namely:

-Unwanted pregnancies due to pre-marital (non-commital) sex

-The spread of STDs due to pre-marital sex with multiple partners

-The devaluing of physical intimacy in a relationship (since so many of us have already had sex many times before)

-Adds to divorce rates due to people feeling "ok" with having sex with someone other than their spouse. Having a "mate" used to mean that you just "mated" with that person. It's not a hard concept, but our moral weakness has apparently changed that.

Now you've heard my piece. Feel free to comment however you like.. just please don't argue that having lots of pre-marital sex with multiple partners doesn't devalue sex with someone that you "really care for." Sex is just like anything else that gets used too much, or misused. It loses value.

hartsickdiscipl

I want to preface this semi-tirade with a statement- I have had pre-marital sex.

Ok, that's out of the way. :P Now, on to the real subject- How is it that we as a society have come to so widely accept pre-marital sex, and even casual sex as normal and acceptable, and yet those same people choose to get married?

One of the original priveleges of being married was to get to reach a level of physical and emotional intimacy with another person. The idea was that you DON'T have sex with people until you get married. This made marriage a much MORE desirable thing than it has become today, because it also included access to one of the most valuable and desirable things that a person can experience- sex.

In our world today, marriage is viewed as a burden as much as it is a privilege, partly because people think "oh crap, now that I'm married to this person, I'm not supposed to have sex with anyone else.. I liked it better when I could have sex with people without commitment. Boy it sucks being tied down."

Well NO **** Of course it feels like you're being tied down, because if you choose to get married today, you're more than likely just being tied down to a used product anyways! Such a high percentage of adults have had multiple sex partners that they weren't married to. If people weren't all screwed-up and down 50 times before they got married, the marriages would work better because the physical intimacy would be valued much more, but the sex itself would be much more valuable. The devaluing of physical intimacy in our society has created a huge moral inversion that is to blame for many problems that we face.. namely:

-Unwanted pregnancies due to pre-marital (non-commital) sex

-The spread of STDs due to pre-marital sex with multiple partners

-The devaluing of physical intimacy in a relationship (since so many of us have already had sex many times before)

-Adds to divorce rates due to people feeling "ok" with having sex with someone other than their spouse. Having a "mate" used to mean that you just "mated" with that person. It's not a hard concept, but our moral weakness has apparently changed that.

Now you've heard my piece. Feel free to comment however you like.. just please don't argue that having lots of pre-marital sex with multiple partners doesn't devalue sex with someone that you "really care for." Sex is just like anything else that gets used too much, or misused. It loses value.

hartsickdiscipl

I smell biasssssss.

I want to preface this semi-tirade with a statement- I have had pre-marital sex.

Ok, that's out of the way. :P Now, on to the real subject- How is it that we as a society have come to so widely accept pre-marital sex, and even casual sex as normal and acceptable, and yet those same people choose to get married?

One of the original priveleges of being married was to get to reach a level of physical and emotional intimacy with another person. The idea was that you DON'T have sex with people until you get married. This made marriage a much MORE desirable thing than it has become today, because it also included access to one of the most valuable and desirable things that a person can experience- sex.

In our world today, marriage is viewed as a burden as much as it is a privilege, partly because people think "oh crap, now that I'm married to this person, I'm not supposed to have sex with anyone else.. I liked it better when I could have sex with people without commitment. Boy it sucks being tied down."

Well NO **** Of course it feels like you're being tied down, because if you choose to get married today, you're more than likely just being tied down to a used product anyways! Such a high percentage of adults have had multiple sex partners that they weren't married to. If people weren't all screwed-up and down 50 times before they got married, the marriages would work better because the physical intimacy would be valued much more, but the sex itself would be much more valuable. The devaluing of physical intimacy in our society has created a huge moral inversion that is to blame for many problems that we face.. namely:

-Unwanted pregnancies due to pre-marital (non-commital) sex

-The spread of STDs due to pre-marital sex with multiple partners

-The devaluing of physical intimacy in a relationship (since so many of us have already had sex many times before)

-Adds to divorce rates due to people feeling "ok" with having sex with someone other than their spouse. Having a "mate" used to mean that you just "mated" with that person. It's not a hard concept, but our moral weakness has apparently changed that.

Now you've heard my piece. Feel free to comment however you like.. just please don't argue that having lots of pre-marital sex with multiple partners doesn't devalue sex with someone that you "really care for." Sex is just like anything else that gets used too much, or misused. It loses value.

hartsickdiscipl

You are extrapolating.

You are also using sex as a reason why marriage exists while you are ignoring the reason of love. Marriages are not based solely on sex and divorces also dont result only from being unfaithful - or that being unfaithful is a result of sex being had before marriage. Perhaps love doesnt hold those marriages anymore and then the devaluation of the whole thing comes along...? Just sayin..

Also the spread of STDs and the unwanted pregnancies are the result of people not acting responsibly. Just because those things happen more often when in premarital sex doesnt mean that thats to blame for it. Correlation =/= causation.

Finito.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Thank you for posting your opinions, your misgivings about marriage, your numbness to the deeper meaning that sex CAN have with another person if it is treated a certain way. I don't blame it on anybody in particular.. I blame it on all of us. For anyone to look at the way our society has changed over the last half-century, and say that it is overall a good thing.. I don't even know what to say. It's scary. The increase in pre-marital sex, as well as extra-marital affairs is undeniable. Like I said in a previous post.. the very fact that fewer and fewer people are even getting out of high school with their virginity is enough to prove this.

hartsickdiscipl

As I already said... the "blame", if you wish to call it that, lies in the way in which marriage has become something that is no longer necessary for survival. It lies in the way in which women now have much greater bargaining power in the world, and such that they do not have to do everything they can to attain a husband who will take care of them for the rest of their lives. You want the society of old back, change that. Don't blame humans.

You cannot hope solve what you see as a problem if you not only do not understand it, but also appear not to even want to understand it. You have taken something that you see and have done nothing other than to simply assume without any evidence whatsoever what its cause is, and then to refuse to question that assumption. That is not a very good way to approach an issue.

Seeing as marriage existed before the Bible was written, and it hardly changed after its creation for a extremely long time.. And :lol: at the whole morals argument.. Yet again this is blind nostalagia, your welcome to live in the dark ages orHigh Middle Ages, afterall every one got married in those times.. Marriage does not constitute some great pillar of morality, it rarely has in history...Marriage has been used as a political and economic tool far longer then anything even coming close to your false sense of the morality of man.. We are IMPROVING socially and morally not de-evolving like you make it out to be..

I had to break my oath of silence for this one. Marriage was NOT invented to financially support women who had no bargaining power in the world. It is true that women were used as bargaining chips in some societies.. They are STILL used this way in some cultures. Adam and Eve existed in a monogamous relationship before money or land title existed. Marriage was "invented" to bond 2 people together, so they could share enduring love and procreate together. It is a public statement of the intent of 2 people to spend their lives together. The fact that women now have a large amount of freedom and financial independence in our world does nothing to change the fact that we still need to procreate, and the children still need parents and a stable environment in which to grown up in. Now, I never intended to argue that the position of women in the world hasn't changed.. of course it has. But you're making quite a jump to say that marriage became obsolete with the women's rights movement, which is essentially what you are saying. Marriage was a good thing for both man and woman, and especially for their offspring. It still is, when done right. Do you really want to see what the world becomes without morals, and without children who have the guidance of their parents due to an increasing number of children born out of wedlock? Take a look around.. you're living in it, and it ain't pretty.

hartsickdiscipl

OK, please, take a history class. I say this sincerely. It would do you good, and it would clear up a lot of questions and misconceptions. The fact of the matter is that what you are saying is simply untrue. Whatever one wishes to argue the spirit behind marriage to be, the reality on the ground was that marriage was precisely what I said: an economically beneficial contract between two parties: the man who could perform the hard labor and thus provide food and shelter, and the woman who gets pregnant, gives birth to children, and takes care of them while the man must work. The fact that the man was the one to perform the hard labor - and thus that the man was the one who could secure food and shelter - meant that the man was the one with all the bargaining power, which meant that it was necessary for the woman to cede to his every desire in order to secure her place as his bride. This included such things as keeping herself a virgin until marriage.

Now that women are capable of creating their own livelihood, however, their level of bargaining power in relationships has drastically increased. Men still tend to value virgins over non-virgins, all else being equal, but now women are more than simply property to be given to a man, so men can no longer expect to always get what they want from women. As such, the necessity of marriage has decreased, and with it also the necessity for women to keep themselves a virgin. So it ought to come as no surprise at all that the tendency for women to have sex prior to marriage has increased. This has nothing to do with moral degredation; it is simply the case that the barrier has been lifted to a desire that has always existed.

And for the record... the places in the United States that have the highest levels of teen pregnancy are the places that advocate abstinence only and to urge women to strictly wait until after marriage before having sex. Humans are rational creatures that respond to stimuli in the form of metaphorical carrots and sticks. Sex is a natural urge that exists in humanity; it is not something that you can simply expect people not to participate in if there is no obvious serious reason not to do so. For a long time there was such an obvious reason, that being the requirement that a woman be a virgin for her to be married and thus for her to survive in the world. Now, however, there is not. So the results are entirely predictable. And, again, they have nothing to do with some sort of moral degredation.

If you are not even willing to acknowledge the plain and simple fact that marriage back in the olden days was in practice primarily simply a mutually beneficial arrangement between two people, then there is nothing more we can discuss, as in doing so you are quite simply denying reality.

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"] Incorrect, virginity is a concept created by society. There is no biological reason for any animal to be more atracted to a virgin than non-virgin.the_new_guy_92

I take many things too seriously.. but sex is not one of them.hartsickdiscipl

I beg to differ.

Edit: I just realized that this thread is from early this morning...sorry.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I had to break my oath of silence for this one. Marriage was NOT invented to financially support women who had no bargaining power in the world. It is true that women were used as bargaining chips in some societies.. They are STILL used this way in some cultures. Adam and Eve existed in a monogamous relationship before money or land title existed. Marriage was "invented" to bond 2 people together, so they could share enduring love and procreate together. It is a public statement of the intent of 2 people to spend their lives together. The fact that women now have a large amount of freedom and financial independence in our world does nothing to change the fact that we still need to procreate, and the children still need parents and a stable environment in which to grown up in. Now, I never intended to argue that the position of women in the world hasn't changed.. of course it has. But you're making quite a jump to say that marriage became obsolete with the women's rights movement, which is essentially what you are saying. Marriage was a good thing for both man and woman, and especially for their offspring. It still is, when done right. Do you really want to see what the world becomes without morals, and without children who have the guidance of their parents due to an increasing number of children born out of wedlock? Take a look around.. you're living in it, and it ain't pretty.

GabuEx

OK, please, take a history class. I say this sincerely. It would do you good, and it would clear up a lot of questions and misconceptions. The fact of the matter is that what you are saying is simply untrue. Whatever one wishes to argue the spirit behind marriage to be, the reality on the ground was that marriage was precisely what I said: an economically beneficial contract between two parties: the man who could perform the hard labor and thus provide food and shelter, and the woman who gets pregnant, gives birth to children, and takes care of them while the man must work. The fact that the man was the one to perform the hard labor - and thus that the man was the one who could secure food and shelter - meant that the man was the one with all the bargaining power, which meant that it was necessary for the woman to cede to his every desire in order to secure her place as his bride. This included such things as keeping herself a virgin until marriage.

I tend to think it was more because of religious beliefs of the populace in general as well..i mean Europeans were primarily Christian for quite awhile...and how people in general viewed virginity and marriage..

I'm fairly certain for most of the later centuries 13th-19th possibly...viewed women as one of the 3 below classes/groups..

1. Whores and Witches

2. Family women

3. Virgins, Nuns and Widows

Basically i take it that marriage, under the normal circumstances...not taking into consideration political marriage and such...that many viewed marriage as something sacred...a bond formed before God in which the man and woman devoted/devote themselves wholly to one another through promises etc...those watching are meant to be the "witnesses"...i guess it may also add a sense of responsibility to the act...seeing as you made sincere vows and promises to one another before family and friends...And the white women wear up to the altar is meant to symbolize purity and innocence..

Nowadays people don't appear to take marriage and virignity seriously...i mean..once you lose it..it's gone..why people rush to lose it to someone who has no intention of staying with them for very long in most cases is beyond me..