Mosque Topic #10232-It's Like Japan Building a Shrine Near Pearl Harbor!

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theone86

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#101 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="Mousetaches"]

[QUOTE="doom3lv"] survivors of 9/11 associate islam with the act. doom3lv

That is a huge issue, because Islam didn't commite the acts. What did Jesus say what you are supposed to do when you are wronged? "Descriminate against anyone who shares any common traits with those who wrong you"?

I don't think that's it.

And I hope there aren't any GOP HQs in Oklahoma City, because Timothy McVeigh was a Republican, so obviously its the GOP's fault.

Here is my problem with islam:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/islam_and_violence.html
ANY violent christian is explicitly going against the teaching of jesus christ. there is no contradiction to this easily verifiable fact.
now, here is what the article describes:
Our point, of course, should not be taken to imply that all faithful and devout Muslims, must become violent, in order to be true to the teachings of Islam. We will not hesitate to say that the vast majority of the Muslim world condemns acts of terror and violence. There are many schools of thought in Islam with various and often conflicting interpretations of the Qur'an. However, the important distinction that we are making is this: the minority groups in Islam who resort to violence, are not an aberration to Islam, but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad.
Now do you see my problem? i am NOT saying all muslims are violent terrorists! far from that, i am saying there are a lot of normal muslims who are just as american as i am.
HOWEVER, the ones who are terrorists, and the ones who made 9/11 possible are also true muslims if you turn to the koran and take it LITERALLY.
this is what scares me. the chance of a christ believer committing acts of terrorism is very unlikely simply because the teachings of jesus christ are completely non violent., but the chance of someone taking the koran literally is far greater.
do not think i am a bigot. i am not. i am simply stating the facts and my conclusions.

You ARE a bigot, you're arguing the supremacy of the Christian culture over Muslims culture using selective quotations and your own interpretation of what a REAL Muslim is. I always love it when people tell other people what a REAL member of a religion is, there's a fellow around here who likes to do it, ask around and see how popular he is when he goes around telling other Christians they're not REAL Christians. Anyways, arguing the cultural superiority is bigoted behavior.The Bible says the same things. The Bible says a woman should submit to a man's authority and that man should have domination over her, the Bible says a man has a right to beat his slave for disobedience, the bible says it is every Christian's duty to stone homosexuals and adulterers. Every holy book is like this, there's no one religion that's better than the other or that holds the moral high ground. In fact, they are alll derived from the same basic religious tenets and only differ not in the god they worship but in the prophets they revere. There's no more difference between a Muslim and a Catholic than between a Catholic and a Protestant.

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conistant

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#102 conistant
Member since 2008 • 2169 Posts

[QUOTE="conistant"]

Thats a good example to show terrorism has no religion.

MrGeezer

Was the KKK a Christian sect? No. But the KKK has historically had a very strong tendency to describe itself as a Christian organization. Specifically Protestant, with a strong dislike for Catholicism. Hell...that's one of the ways in which the KKK became so widespread. By using Christian churches as a recruiting tool.

That is exactly what I was referring to.I think I need to type everything that comes to my mind next time I post.
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Barbariser

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#103 Barbariser
Member since 2009 • 6785 Posts

The idea that the presence of the "mosque" is offensive is completely preposterous. There is absolutely no reason for anyone involved to consider the "mosque" "insulting", because simply put terrorism isn't actually inherent to Islam.

This is only a big deal because some people don't possess the intellectual capacity to understand that terrorists associating themselves with a religion does not necessarily mean that the religion endorses or supports the terrorists. With the kind of logic these people use, it's possible to argue that the presence of human beings at Ground Zero (in reality, a bit further away than that) is offensive. Of course, that conclusion is absurd, but it's the exact same rationalization method used to argue that the "mosque" is offensive.

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MrGeezer

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#104 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="conistant"]

Thats a good example to show terrorism has no religion.

conistant

Was the KKK a Christian sect? No. But the KKK has historically had a very strong tendency to describe itself as a Christian organization. Specifically Protestant, with a strong dislike for Catholicism. Hell...that's one of the ways in which the KKK became so widespread. By using Christian churches as a recruiting tool.

That is exactly what I was referring to.I think I need to type everything that comes to my mind next time I post.

lol...don't get me wrong, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just elaborating on what you said.

Yeah...extremist muslims using mosques as a front for terrorist activities doesn't reflect on Islam at large, any more than it reflected on Christianity at large when the KKK was using Protestant churches as a front for their terrorist activities.

Extremism is extremism, and should not be confused with the people who practice their religion in a peaceful manner.

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theone86

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#105 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

The idea that the presence of the "mosque" is offensive is completely preposterous. There is absolutely no reason for anyone involved to consider the "mosque" "insulting", because simply put terrorism isn't actually inherent to Islam.

This is only a big deal because some people don't possess the intellectual capacity to understand that terrorists associating themselves with a religion does not necessarily mean that the religion endorses or supports the terrorists. With the kind of logic these people use, it's possible to argue that the presence of human beings at Ground Zero (in reality, a bit further away than that) is offensive. Of course, that conclusion is absurd, but it's the exact same rationalization method used to argue that the "mosque" is offensive.

Barbariser

Agreed, and here's a picture of what that "mosque" is going to look like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_Zero_Mosque

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shutdown_202

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#106 shutdown_202
Member since 2005 • 5649 Posts

I always find it funny how alot of people were jumping on the draw Mohammed day and are against the mosque claiming insensitivity :lol:

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Ultimas_Blade

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#107 Ultimas_Blade
Member since 2004 • 3671 Posts

I always find it funny how alot of people were jumping on the draw Mohammed day and are against the mosque claiming insensitivity :lol:

shutdown_202

Well they're bigots and hypocrits, that's what they do :lol:

Just look at those idiots that supported that Beck/Palin rally on the anniversary of MLK's "I have a Dream" speech. That's insensitive as hell, yet they were in the clammering for that mess.

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Aero5555

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#108 Aero5555
Member since 2006 • 1333 Posts

I always find it funny how alot of people were jumping on the draw Mohammed day and are against the mosque claiming insensitivity :lol:

shutdown_202

This pretty much summed it up. Also, I'm glad to see people with tolerance and respect to other cultures. Big thanks to you people.

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-Y2J-

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#109 -Y2J-
Member since 2005 • 1000 Posts
THere was someone asking where the funding was coming from, its coming partly from the kingdom foundation which is owned by Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal who also owns 7% of News Corp and has his hands in lots of other businesses. just look up the daily show and fox funding to see.
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Snipes_2

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#110 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

"A Shinto shrine is a structure whose main purpose is to house ("enshrine") one or more Shinto kami.[1] (Its most important building is used for the safekeeping of sacred objects, and not for worship)"

;)

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UnknownSniper65

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#111 UnknownSniper65
Member since 2004 • 9238 Posts

I'm at the point where I don't care anymore.

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Ninja-Hippo

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#113 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
When will we learn to be kind to each other and just leave good people to do what they like, seeing as it doesn't harm anyone? It's odd that we persecute and discriminate against so many people so often, considering the majority of us are supposedly christians.
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Vfanek

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#114 Vfanek
Member since 2006 • 7719 Posts
When will we learn to be kind to each other and just leave good people to do what they like, seeing as it doesn't harm anyone? It's odd that we persecute and discriminate against so many people so often, considering the majority of us are supposedly christians. Ninja-Hippo
Historically we've never been nice and kind, realistically we never will.
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Sp4rtan_3

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#115 Sp4rtan_3
Member since 2010 • 3495 Posts

[QUOTE="Sp4rtan_3"][QUOTE="UnchartedZonePS"]You know something, I didnt really care about this issue. But now that i see all the whining and moaning about it, I hope the owner builds the biggest, most extragvant mosque you can possibly build. This is such a non issue its not even funny.. wow seriouslyjaydough

Welcome to the age of 24/7 Cable news and Networks so dedicated to their bias propaganda (Fox and MSNBC) that any small no brain issue turns into a national political debate.

MSNBC isn't at all like Fox. MSNBC has a bias, while Fox is pure propaganda.

MSNBC is the obama mouthpiece, watch rachel maddow or Keith Olberman. Im a democrat and I even see what MSNBC is. But to be fair Fox news is just pure conspiracy theory scare tactic propaganda.
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Meat_Wad_Fan

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#116 Meat_Wad_Fan
Member since 2002 • 9054 Posts

I don't understand why your thread title is a joke, or why we even needed another one of these threads. I've already decided for everybody that building the Mosque isn't bad.

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doom3lv

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#117 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts

[QUOTE="doom3lv"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Christianity upholds men as superior to women.

hakanakumono

so your answer to any question about islam is to turn around and say "christianity does it too!". so if christianity made it ok to be a terrorist, would be ok for islam to preach the same?

I don't know if either religion makes it "okay to be a terrorist," but I know that in the Bible you can find some pretty nasty things. In the old testament, it does advocate (actually, commands) the stoning of people who don't fall under the same religion, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised that some verses in Islam can be used to advocate terrorism as well (as well as one clearly condemning it).

The point is that Christians are capable of being peaceful, productive, caring, well meaning citizens of the United States. Guess what, Muslims are too. America needs Mosques from these kinds of people, not Islamophobia that can give rise to the kind of persecuation complexes that have a much greater chance of giving rise to terrorism than a community center on top of a derelict blurington coat factory.

Christians of America are quite capable of being peaceful. If it wasn't for them America wouldn't be what it is.
Can people honestly say the same thing about muslims? Considering every other day a naturalized American muslim is in the news for wanting to harm other people in the name of islam.
Yet, if we do not love islam, we are bigots. That's great.
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deactivated-5857b4a04988e

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#118 deactivated-5857b4a04988e
Member since 2007 • 441 Posts

I don't understand why your thread title is a joke, or why we even needed another one of these threads. I've already decided for everybody that building the Mosque isn't bad.

Meat_Wad_Fan

Did you read my first post? I completely support building the mosque. (btw, this is probably my most sucessful thread ever, lol)

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rowzzr

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#119 rowzzr
Member since 2005 • 2375 Posts

the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. IF the catholics ever wanted to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.

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doom3lv

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#121 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts

the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. IF the catholics ever wanted to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.

rowzzr
Fine by Americans? Did you even the rally last week? There were thousands opposed to it. there were about 70 people saying islam is peaceful and what not.
But the one word that goes against everything America stands for - Sharia.
This is the law that makes it OK to stone people to death, kill homosexuals, beat your women into obdience. There is no way this kind of a law is welcome in America.
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deactivated-5857b4a04988e

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#122 deactivated-5857b4a04988e
Member since 2007 • 441 Posts

the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. the catholics want to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.rowzzr

So we're putting the United State's to the standards of Saudi Arabia (where Mecca is located), one of the worst dictatorships in the world? I thought the point to AMERICAN FREEDOM was to put ourselves above those that are intolerant and give everyone equal rights and opportunity in everything from jobs to religion.

Or are we simply to the level of a theocratic dictatorship? Lol?

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scorch-62

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#123 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
[QUOTE="rowzzr"]the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. the catholics want to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.

A. It's not a mosque. B. Polls have shown that nearly 70% of Americans don't want Park 51 to be built. C. Mecca is not in the US, therefore American laws cannot be ascribed to that region.
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doom3lv

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#124 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="rowzzr"]the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. the catholics want to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.

A. It's not a mosque. B. Polls have shown that nearly 70% of Americans don't want Park 51 to be built. C. Mecca is not in the US, therefore American laws cannot be ascribed to that region.

but isnt mecca like the holy ground where non muslims are not even allowed to enter? i dont see any muslims protesting for religious equality.
in fact muslims proudly say that mecca is so pure that non muslims are not even allowed to enter.
vatican on the other hand in spite of all the criticism, is way more progressive. and i hate those guys, and i have to admit this.
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Hewkii

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#125 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
vatican on the other hand in spite of all the criticism, is way more progressive. and i hate those guys, and i have to admit this. doom3lv
there's no mosque in the Vatican to the best of my knowledge.
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doom3lv

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#126 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="doom3lv"]vatican on the other hand in spite of all the criticism, is way more progressive. and i hate those guys, and i have to admit this. Hewkii
there's no mosque in the Vatican to the best of my knowledge.

muslims can enter it.
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Hewkii

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#127 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
muslims can enter it. doom3lv
cite that.
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deactivated-5857b4a04988e

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#128 deactivated-5857b4a04988e
Member since 2007 • 441 Posts

[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="rowzzr"]the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. the catholics want to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.doom3lv
A. It's not a mosque. B. Polls have shown that nearly 70% of Americans don't want Park 51 to be built. C. Mecca is not in the US, therefore American laws cannot be ascribed to that region.

but isnt mecca like the holy ground where non muslims are not even allowed to enter? i dont see any muslims protesting for religious equality.
in fact muslims proudly say that mecca is so pure that non muslims are not even allowed to enter.
vatican on the other hand in spite of all the criticism, is way more progressive. and i hate those guys, and i have to admit this.

Non muslims can enter Mecca. Btw, can you remind me when the Vatican allowed a mosque to be built there? I don't remember anything like that...

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Meat_Wad_Fan

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#129 Meat_Wad_Fan
Member since 2002 • 9054 Posts

Why are you guys talking about other countries and Islam? This is the United States where we have freedom of religion, and Islam did not attack the WTC.

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KG86

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#130 KG86
Member since 2007 • 6021 Posts

It's funny how people say that this community centre could be used to rercuit extremists but I would wager that all this Islamophobia that is brewing would be way more effective recruiting tool.

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scorch-62

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#131 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
[QUOTE="doom3lv"]but isnt mecca like the holy ground where non muslims are not even allowed to enter? i dont see any muslims protesting for religious equality. in fact muslims proudly say that mecca is so pure that non muslims are not even allowed to enter. vatican on the other hand in spite of all the criticism, is way more progressive. and i hate those guys, and i have to admit this.

Allow me to restate: Mecca is not in America. Saudi Arabia is not obliged to follow American laws.
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Hewkii

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#132 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
Can people honestly say the same thing about muslims? Considering every other day a naturalized American muslim is in the news for wanting to harm other people in the name of islam. doom3lv
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/28/national/main6814690.shtml

Federal officials are investigating a fire that started overnight at the site of a new Islamic center in a Nashville suburb. Ben Goodwin of the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department confirmed to CBS Affiliate WTVF that the fire, which burned construction equipment at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, is being ruled as arson. [...] Opponents of a new Islamic center say they believe the mosque will be more than a place of prayer; they are afraid the 15-acre site that was once farmland will be turned into a terrorist training ground for Muslim militants bent on overthrowing the U.S. government. "They are not a religion. They are a political, militaristic group," Bob Shelton, a 76-year-old retiree who lives in the area, told The Associated Press.

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Teenaged

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#133 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Mousetaches"]

So..you're condemning the whole of the muslims for the actions of a few?

And they're not building the mosque on ground zero, so its not like they're building it "in a place where we were attacked" but a place near it. Xenophobia ftw.

airshocker

How am I condemning anything? It's not like my word alone is going to prevent the mosque from being built.

You can dress it up however you want, it's still Ground Zero. Insults, the crutch of those who are unwilling to admit someone has a point.

Same as you do, at the very least.

You may claim he embelishes the issue but you are also trying very hard to create the opposite impression.

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doom3lv

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#134 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="doom3lv"]Can people honestly say the same thing about muslims? Considering every other day a naturalized American muslim is in the news for wanting to harm other people in the name of islam. Hewkii

Federal officials are investigating a fire that started overnight at the site of a new Islamic center in a Nashville suburb. Ben Goodwin of the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department confirmed to CBS Affiliate WTVF that the fire, which burned construction equipment at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, is being ruled as arson. [...] Opponents of a new Islamic center say they believe the mosque will be more than a place of prayer; they are afraid the 15-acre site that was once farmland will be turned into a terrorist training ground for Muslim militants bent on overthrowing the U.S. government. "They are not a religion. They are a political, militaristic group," Bob Shelton, a 76-year-old retiree who lives in the area, told The Associated Press.

I have a right to me opinion and I agree with Bob Shelton.
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Hewkii

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#135 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
I have a right to me opinion and I agree with Bob Shelton. doom3lv
you agree that every Muslim is literally a barbarian savage who wants to take over America and kill all the white people?
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doom3lv

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#136 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="doom3lv"]I have a right to me opinion and I agree with Bob Shelton. Hewkii
you agree that every Muslim is literally a barbarian savage who wants to take over America and kill all the white people?

no definitely not. but i do not support the teachings of islam seeing what they do to certain people. so in my opinion seeing the dangerous effect it can have on weak minded individuals, i think we need to take a close look at the spread of islam.
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Hewkii

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#137 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
no definitely not. but i do not support the teachings of islam seeing what they do to certain people. so in my opinion seeing the dangerous effect it can have on weak minded individuals, i think we need to take a close look at the spread of islam. doom3lv
you can literally say this about any religion or philosophy. like, no joke, replace "Islam" with "Christianity" or "Hinduism" or "Communism" or "Conservatism". it's the same goddamn sentence.
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Ultimas_Blade

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#138 Ultimas_Blade
Member since 2004 • 3671 Posts

Why do people bring up Mecca and other places that have **** to do with the USA? So what if the idiots over there do what they do? We don't do it because we have better laws than that and because we're American. Its like people want the US to become this mirror version of what they have in foreign countries that do not have religious freedom as we do.

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doom3lv

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#139 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="doom3lv"]no definitely not. but i do not support the teachings of islam seeing what they do to certain people. so in my opinion seeing the dangerous effect it can have on weak minded individuals, i think we need to take a close look at the spread of islam. Hewkii
you can literally say this about any religion or philosophy. like, no joke, replace "Islam" with "Christianity" or "Hinduism" or "Communism" or "Conservatism". it's the same goddamn sentence.

not if you look at the statistics and the number. let the numbers do the talking. let the facts speak for themselves.
hinduism is definitely not a threat. i have been to temples in austin texas. they are fantastic. they dont have a seperate corner for women to pray. everyone is equal.
as for islam, look, check your facts. issrespective of what any book says, the fact is, people of other religions get along. this is a FACT backed by numbers. i never had ANY problem with muslims before 9/11. at all. now i do. i dont like the uncontrolled spread of islam because i am afraid the group will become so large that the sharia law will make its way into America, which i cannot allow.
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UnknownSniper65

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#140 UnknownSniper65
Member since 2004 • 9238 Posts

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

The idea that the presence of the "mosque" is offensive is completely preposterous. There is absolutely no reason for anyone involved to consider the "mosque" "insulting", because simply put terrorism isn't actually inherent to Islam.

This is only a big deal because some people don't possess the intellectual capacity to understand that terrorists associating themselves with a religion does not necessarily mean that the religion endorses or supports the terrorists. With the kind of logic these people use, it's possible to argue that the presence of human beings at Ground Zero (in reality, a bit further away than that) is offensive. Of course, that conclusion is absurd, but it's the exact same rationalization method used to argue that the "mosque" is offensive.

KlownMaster

Agreed, and here's a picture of what that "mosque" is going to look like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_Zero_Mosque

Wow I really don't like the new look of the building, if it is opened they should at least respect the age of the building and at least keep the facade in its original ****

It does look quite ugly.

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Hewkii

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#141 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
[QUOTE="doom3lv"] not if you look at the statistics and the number. let the numbers do the talking. let the facts speak for themselves.

then show me these statistics. go on, a chart, a graph, anything. show me.
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doom3lv

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#142 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
There you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPaO1FyjkeU&feature=related
That's just from one part of the world. Its crazy.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Ramadan 2010 Scorecard
Day 18
In the name of The Religion of Peace
Terror Attacks 125
Dead Bodies 535
In the name of All Other Religions 0
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Hewkii

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#143 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

There you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPaO1FyjkeU&feature=related
That's just from one part of the world. Its crazy. doom3lv
show me something from the United States, you know, where this controversy is taking place. I know why you didn't though, because research shows that Muslims integrate better in the US than most of the world.

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doom3lv

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#144 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
They integrate better?
So an occasional case of domestic violence is OK. An occasional NYC car bombing is OK. Is that what you are saying?
Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence
"These ideas are justified with reference to the Qur'an, especially An-Nisa, 34, which discusses forms of beating in certain circumstances. The scholars allowing "beating" stress that it is a last resort, discountenanced, and must not be done to cause pain or injury"
The hipocricy of that statement speaks volumes about the mindset of pepole.
beating your wife is OK in self defense but must not be done to cause pain or injury??? What the hell!
why am i the only person sickened by this?
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Hewkii

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#145 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
in fact, let's look at one of these charts, shall we?  notice how more Christians want their houses of worship to talk about politics?
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doom3lv

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#146 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="Hewkii"]in fact, let's look at one of these charts, shall we? notice how more Christians want their houses of worship to talk about politics?

oh yeah hate the christians.
remember, if it wasn't the christians america wouldn't be the land of freedom it is today. reason being, christians can and will challenge the church.
when was the last time you heard of a muslim open challenging islam? when was the last time you heard people protest the governament approved religious violence in iran and indonesia and win? i am guessing never.
why else would there be iranian asylum seekers in norway? because there is no winning against islam. unfortunate as it maybe.
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bruinfan617

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#147 bruinfan617
Member since 2010 • 3767 Posts

the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. IF the catholics ever wanted to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.

rowzzr
There are just so many things wrong with your post...
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doom3lv

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#148 doom3lv
Member since 2010 • 316 Posts
[QUOTE="bruinfan617"][QUOTE="rowzzr"]

the muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. fine by many americans. IF the catholics ever wanted to build a church near mecca. not fine by the muslims.

There are just so many things wrong with your post...

like logic and common sense.
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Hewkii

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#149 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
when was the last time you heard of a muslim open challenging islam? doom3lv
...now?
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#150 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="Hewkii"]in fact, let's look at one of these charts, shall we? notice how more Christians want their houses of worship to talk about politics? doom3lv
oh yeah hate the christians.
remember, if it wasn't the christians america wouldn't be the land of freedom it is today. reason being, christians can and will challenge the church.
when was the last time you heard of a muslim open challenging islam? when was the last time you heard people protest the governament approved religious violence in iran and indonesia and win? i am guessing never.
why else would there be iranian asylum seekers in norway? because there is no winning against islam. unfortunate as it maybe.

I've read plenty of the Bible to know Islam is not the only religion with ****ed up ideals. But these are religions created by people thousands of years ago at the dawn of first Human understanding, so what do you really expect?