Question about evolution and atheism BIG READ

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Gallion-Beast

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#101 Gallion-Beast
Member since 2005 • 35803 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Err...Since Science can't prove it because God is infinite. How would I get a scientific source? God did not just occur out of nothing, he has existed before time, the logic is faulty. He's not of our world, while as the universe is. God isn't a Human being and he's not Material, whereas the Universe is. The universe had to have come from somewhere.

I ask this not as argument, but rather out of curiousity. I often see the claims that god is "infinite" and existed before time. Firstly, what does it mean that god is infinite? Infinite refers to a quantity of measurement. What aspect of god is infinite? Similarly, the word "before" is referring to a place further back in time. By the definition of before it means that time was passing prior to the point you're calling the start of time, meaning it could not infact be before time at all. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm just nitpicking at your wording or anything, it's just that I often hear those statements thrown around by Christians but I can't derive any actual meanign from the statements.
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Snipes_2

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#102 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

You can't explain a being that is not of our World. It's impossible, you can't explain how the Universe formed even though it is of our World.

Ninja-Hippo
The problem is that what you're doing here is a very common theist tool in debates of this nature. You assert that God created the universe. Others do not think that is true. You then challenge them to explain certain things, such as how the universe came to be, however they do not know the answer to that question (and do not claim to know the answer to that question). Because they cannot factually disprove the existence of God (which is not possible, as you know) theists then declare themselves *winner* even though they too are in the exact same boat and cannot prove that God exists or created the Universe at all. The only difference is that one is saying 'i don't know' and the other is saying 'i DO know' based on no evidence of any kind; basically what they were brought up to believe. So who out of the two is being more reasonable?

The Universe is infinite right?
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#103 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
The superman analogy is a pretty poor analogy in my opinion. The reason why superman can do all of these incredible things is not because he is superman - that answer is fallacious - but because superman is a fictional character that exists not in our actual universe but in a fictional one. So to answer (it's not even really an answer; you are really just dismissing the question all together) the question "who created the creator" or "how did God do this or that" with "pfft, he's God" is simply not going to suffice. Saying "god did it" doesn't solve any of the problems that you take issue with.
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urdead18

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#104 urdead18
Member since 2008 • 3630 Posts

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You can't disprove Gods existence am I right? I used the Bible to Prove it, if you don't accept the proof that's not my problem. Snipes_2

That is not proof at all. If i were to say the God of Napkins is real and the one true God would you accept this as proof?

Is the napkin Supernatural? Can you see the Napkin? Can you describe that the Napkin is actually there and isn't God. Can you tell it Can't actually do anything? A napkin is not comparable to a book that has actual accounts and explanations on why things happened.

"actual accounts and explanations on why things happened." So does the Quran. So does the Torah, so does everything other religion, just different accounts and explanations. Why the Bible? It's silly.
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Ninja-Hippo

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#105 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] Ockham's Razor will ensure that if we're asserting a creator of any kind then its God. And the sheer improbability of the universe turning out this way, so as to support life etc, seems provide evidence for a creator over chance or whatnot.

You know what's even more improbable? A being capable of creating entire universes randomly coming into existence. But if the razor really says that, who is to say that the creator we are asserting isn't a pink unicorn? God doesn't have to be a white man with a long beard. He may very well be a pink unicorn/dragon hybrid, for all you know.

Well he didn't come into existence. God necessarily exists. It wasn't improbable. Ockham's razor states that the simplest theory should be preferred. So you can argue for a pink jelly monster if you like but you're over complicating things for sake of exaggeration.

Two problems with applying Occam's Razor to this: 1) Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is USUALLY the correct one. Not always. 2) The simplest explanation here is allegedly that God created the universe, however when you consider the theoretical and philosophical implications of that fact it's actually INCREDIBLY complicated and not even remotely simple at all. The notion that the Universe came to be via scientific processes of some kind (but which we currently do not understand) like everything else we examine being governed by scientific processes seems like a much more simple explanation.
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SteveTabernacle

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#106 SteveTabernacle
Member since 2010 • 2584 Posts

The Proof is in the Bible, which for some reason you don't accept. Snipes_2
If you insist the bible is proof, then you must accept Ninja-Hippo's napkin as equally valid proof. You can't prove the person who wrote that napkin wasn't inspired by a supernatural being to do so in order to spread a message of hope and salvation from the one true creator and lord of the universe, the Almighty Napkin. Your logic is because we can't prove God exists, and we can't prove the Bible isn't divinely inspired, that God must exist and the Bible must be his divine word. So the same logic applies for Ninja-Hippo. The lack of evidence against the Napkin God, and the divine inspiration of the holy Napkin, proves his Almighty Absorbent Holiness must exist, and that napkin must be his divine word.

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SolidSnake35

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#107 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Darth-Caedus"]Prove that a magical invisible unicorn/dragon hybrid didn't create the universe. You can not prove a negative, and you don't have to. The burden of proof ALWAYS with the one making the claim.GabuEx

Ockham's Razor will ensure that if we're asserting a creator of any kind then its God. And the sheer improbability of the universe turning out this way, so as to support life etc, seems provide evidence for a creator over chance or whatnot.

That's not how Occam's Razor works at all. Occam's Razor says that one should not assume the existence of any item or thing that is not known to exist and which is unnecessary to explain a set of observed phenomena. If all of the observed phenomena in question can be accounted for without bringing in a theoretical being that is not known to exist, then Occam's Razor says we should not operate on the assumption that that being exists, as in that case it has no explanatory power at all. "Improbability" has nothing to do with anything. The most common form in which Occam's Razor is quoted - "The simplest solution is the best" - is a total misrepresentation of what it really says.

I'm using it correctly. A being with lesser properties assigned to it is to be preferred to some fantastical being with properties given to it for the sake of being stupid. And the improbability bit was separate; to explain the need for a creator. From there, you infer a creator of the simplest kind.
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clubsammich91

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#108 clubsammich91
Member since 2009 • 2229 Posts

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Err...Since Science can't prove it because God is infinite. How would I get a scientific source? God did not just occur out of nothing, he has existed before time, the logic is faulty. He's not of our world, while as the universe is. God isn't a Human being and he's not Material, whereas the Universe is. The universe had to have come from somewhere. Snipes_2

Your assertions then: It is impossible for there not to be a good, because it is impossible for something to just come out of nothing. It is impossible to exist without being created. Nobody created God, he has existed FOREVER, and therefore exists without being created. The two are complete and utter contradictions. If your argument is 'yeah but God is different because he's magic' then that doesn't really prove anything, does it? We go full circle and go back to the 'magic' part which we were trying to prove/disprove in the first place.

You can't explain a being that is not of our World. It's impossible, you can't explain how the Universe formed even though it is of our World.

I think you should watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK4gxEBQrPs

Watch all 10 parts too. It's pretty interesting.

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Snipes_2

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#109 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Err...Since Science can't prove it because God is infinite. How would I get a scientific source? God did not just occur out of nothing, he has existed before time, the logic is faulty. He's not of our world, while as the universe is. God isn't a Human being and he's not Material, whereas the Universe is. The universe had to have come from somewhere.

I ask this not as argument, but rather out of curiousity. I often see the claims that god is "infinite" and existed before time. Firstly, what does it mean that god is infinite? Infinite refers to a quantity of measurement. What aspect of god is infinite? Similarly, the word "before" is referring to a place further back in time. By the definition of before it means that time was passing prior to the point you're calling the start of time, meaning it could not infact be before time at all. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm just nitpicking at your wording or anything, it's just that I often hear those statements thrown around by Christians but I can't derive any actual meanign from the statements.

There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom.
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Ninja-Hippo

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#110 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] The Universe is infinite right?

A common scientific theory is that the universe constantly expands, and as such there is no end. That theory implies the universe is indeed infinite. You're dodging the points in my post however. ;)
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#111 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Err...Since Science can't prove it because God is infinite. How would I get a scientific source? God did not just occur out of nothing, he has existed before time, the logic is faulty. He's not of our world, while as the universe is. God isn't a Human being and he's not Material, whereas the Universe is. The universe had to have come from somewhere.

I ask this not as argument, but rather out of curiousity. I often see the claims that god is "infinite" and existed before time. Firstly, what does it mean that god is infinite? Infinite refers to a quantity of measurement. What aspect of god is infinite? Similarly, the word "before" is referring to a place further back in time. By the definition of before it means that time was passing prior to the point you're calling the start of time, meaning it could not infact be before time at all. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm just nitpicking at your wording or anything, it's just that I often hear those statements thrown around by Christians but I can't derive any actual meanign from the statements.

There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom.

Why can't God share his wisdom with us?
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foxhound_fox

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#112 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

The Universe is infinite right?Snipes_2

Most of the current evidence we have points towards: no

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Snipes_2

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#113 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]The Proof is in the Bible, which for some reason you don't accept. SteveTabernacle
If you insist the bible is proof, then you must accept Ninja-Hippo's napkin as equally valid proof. You can't prove the person who wrote that napkin wasn't inspired by a supernatural being to do so in order to spread a message of hope and salvation from the on true creator and lord of the universe, the Almighty Napkin. Your logic is because we can't prove God exists, and we can't prove the Bible isn't divinely inspired, that God must exist and the Bible must be his divine word. So the same logic applies for Ninja-Hippo. The lack of evidence against the Napkin God, and the divine inspiration of the holy Napkin, proves his Almighty Absorbent Holiness must exist, and that napkin must be his divine word.

Did the Napkin perform any Miracles, did multiple people affirm these miracles? IS the Napkin a Material thing?
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Hewkii

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#114 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
Well he didn't come into existence. God necessarily exists. It wasn't improbable. Ockham's razor states that the simplest theory should be preferred. So you can argue for a pink jelly monster if you like but you're over complicating things for sake of exaggeration.SolidSnake35
a pink jelly monster is infinitely simpler than an omni-everything entity.
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SteveTabernacle

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#115 SteveTabernacle
Member since 2010 • 2584 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom.

That's not an answer, that's a distraction, and a very poor excuse for not having a logically sound argument.
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Snipes_2

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#116 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"] I ask this not as argument, but rather out of curiousity. I often see the claims that god is "infinite" and existed before time. Firstly, what does it mean that god is infinite? Infinite refers to a quantity of measurement. What aspect of god is infinite? Similarly, the word "before" is referring to a place further back in time. By the definition of before it means that time was passing prior to the point you're calling the start of time, meaning it could not infact be before time at all. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm just nitpicking at your wording or anything, it's just that I often hear those statements thrown around by Christians but I can't derive any actual meanign from the statements.

There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom.

Why can't God share his wisdom with us?

His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#117 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom.

Why can't God share his wisdom with us?

His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.

So? How is that a problem for God?
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urdead18

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#118 urdead18
Member since 2008 • 3630 Posts
[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]The Proof is in the Bible, which for some reason you don't accept. Snipes_2
If you insist the bible is proof, then you must accept Ninja-Hippo's napkin as equally valid proof. You can't prove the person who wrote that napkin wasn't inspired by a supernatural being to do so in order to spread a message of hope and salvation from the on true creator and lord of the universe, the Almighty Napkin. Your logic is because we can't prove God exists, and we can't prove the Bible isn't divinely inspired, that God must exist and the Bible must be his divine word. So the same logic applies for Ninja-Hippo. The lack of evidence against the Napkin God, and the divine inspiration of the holy Napkin, proves his Almighty Absorbent Holiness must exist, and that napkin must be his divine word.

Did the Napkin perform any Miracles, did multiple people affirm these miracles? IS the Napkin a Material thing?

Atleast the napkin doesn't have multiple contradictions and errors.
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Snipes_2

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#119 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom.

That's not an answer, that's a distraction, and a very poor excuse for not having a logically sound argument.

What word in the English language or any language for that matter would you use to describe something that happened before time existed?
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SgtKevali

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#120 SgtKevali
Member since 2009 • 5763 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] There's no other word to describe what happened "Before" we came to be. Everything about God is infinite, the Human mind is Finite, we will never be able to fully understand Gods wisdom. Snipes_2
Why can't God share his wisdom with us?

His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

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Snipes_2

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#121 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="urdead18"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] If you insist the bible is proof, then you must accept Ninja-Hippo's napkin as equally valid proof. You can't prove the person who wrote that napkin wasn't inspired by a supernatural being to do so in order to spread a message of hope and salvation from the on true creator and lord of the universe, the Almighty Napkin. Your logic is because we can't prove God exists, and we can't prove the Bible isn't divinely inspired, that God must exist and the Bible must be his divine word. So the same logic applies for Ninja-Hippo. The lack of evidence against the Napkin God, and the divine inspiration of the holy Napkin, proves his Almighty Absorbent Holiness must exist, and that napkin must be his divine word.

Did the Napkin perform any Miracles, did multiple people affirm these miracles? IS the Napkin a Material thing?

Atleast the napkin doesn't have multiple contradictions and errors.

Actually it does. By saying your God you are saying you are not material, you have infinite wisdom, you can perform miracles, and you are omnipotent.
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Ninja-Hippo

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#122 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You can't disprove Gods existence am I right? I used the Bible to Prove it, if you don't accept the proof that's not my problem. Snipes_2

That is not proof at all. If i were to say the God of Napkins is real and the one true God would you accept this as proof?

Is the napkin Supernatural? Can you see the Napkin? Can you describe that the Napkin is actually there and isn't God. Can you tell it Can't actually do anything? A napkin is not comparable to a book that has actual accounts and explanations on why things happened.

The napkin God cannot be seen. He is infinite. He is all powerful. I just proved to you that he exists by showing you a picture of the holy napkin which says that the napkin religion is the one true religion. Me showing you a napkin which asserts that the Napkin god is the one true god is exactly the same as you showing me the bible to prove that your god is the one true god. You realise that practically every religion has a scripture saying that their God is the one true God? You realise that Vikings carried around a book explaining the origins of Thor?
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deadpool86x

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#123 deadpool86x
Member since 2009 • 150 Posts

You think god came to be in the form of a man, dont you? Because the bible says so? Well im sorry but thats not how i see god. I feel god is everything. It is the end result and of the formula for everything. EVERYTHING already existed, and that everything is GOD. I see god as time, and space, and everything else. I see god as always having existed and then creating the universe as we know it. The idea that the universe came to be from nothingness but created an infinite complexity is absolute nonsense.

Those who dont believe in god believe the ipod constructed itself, and programmed itself with music, then it shuffled the music into the perfect sequence for life to exist and never stopped repeating that playlist that is set to random play. Its like rolling the dice the same way every time forever. Its not possible and goes against all mathematical law.

0+0=0

those who feel god doesnt exist believe 0+0=your pick of any specific complex number. The universe doesnt have a concious mind, its not alive. Its not a giant bug. It cant evolve, but you are saying the pieces inside of it can, and that the same elements that created all we know can randomly generate the perfect adaptations to anything else? Do you know how silly that sounds? All matter and life is made of the same things, but somehow the the more complex life forms are evolving, but not the basic parts as found in atoms and basic elements? you are saying evolution is SELECTIVE to complex life?

oops :) got cha there didnt i

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Snipes_2

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#124 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why can't God share his wisdom with us?SgtKevali

His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?
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urdead18

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#125 urdead18
Member since 2008 • 3630 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why can't God share his wisdom with us?SgtKevali

His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

Better yet...

http://emptinessofexistence.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/epicurus.jpg

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SolidSnake35

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#126 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Two problems with applying Occam's Razor to this: 1) Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is USUALLY the correct one. Not always. 2) The simplest explanation here is allegedly that God created the universe, however when you consider the theoretical and philosophical implications of that fact it's actually INCREDIBLY complicated and not even remotely simple at all. The notion that the Universe came to be via scientific processes of some kind (but which we currently do not understand) like everything else we examine being governed by scientific processes seems like a much more simple explanation.

I'm only using it to suggest a theistic god over some stupid monster. I think probability suggests God over a scientific explanation. In most possible universes, science of our kind probably doesn't even exist. You'd have various other sciences. Probably all of them would be equally useless for explaining anything beyond its own respective universe.
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Ninja-Hippo

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#127 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]The Proof is in the Bible, which for some reason you don't accept. Snipes_2
If you insist the bible is proof, then you must accept Ninja-Hippo's napkin as equally valid proof. You can't prove the person who wrote that napkin wasn't inspired by a supernatural being to do so in order to spread a message of hope and salvation from the on true creator and lord of the universe, the Almighty Napkin. Your logic is because we can't prove God exists, and we can't prove the Bible isn't divinely inspired, that God must exist and the Bible must be his divine word. So the same logic applies for Ninja-Hippo. The lack of evidence against the Napkin God, and the divine inspiration of the holy Napkin, proves his Almighty Absorbent Holiness must exist, and that napkin must be his divine word.

Did the Napkin perform any Miracles, did multiple people affirm these miracles? IS the Napkin a Material thing?

Ah, so my God requires evidence does it? Strange, because your God can be proved to exist by simply quoting the bible. Yet when i quote holy scripture for the Napkin God you require more evidence to demonstrate his existence.
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urdead18

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#128 urdead18
Member since 2008 • 3630 Posts
[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.Snipes_2

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?

So God can't do that? Clearly he's not omnipotent.
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Snipes_2

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#129 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]

That is not proof at all. If i were to say the God of Napkins is real and the one true God would you accept this as proof?

Ninja-Hippo

Is the napkin Supernatural? Can you see the Napkin? Can you describe that the Napkin is actually there and isn't God. Can you tell it Can't actually do anything? A napkin is not comparable to a book that has actual accounts and explanations on why things happened.

The napkin God cannot be seen. He is infinite. He is all powerful. I just proved to you that he exists by showing you a picture of the holy napkin which says that the napkin religion is the one true religion. Me showing you a napkin which asserts that the Napkin god is the one true god is exactly the same as you showing me the bible to prove that your god is the one true god. You realise that practically every religion has a scripture saying that their God is the one true God? You realise that Vikings carried around a book explaining the origins of Thor?

There's the problem, you showed me a picture of "The Holy Napkin" therefore it is a material object, the napkin is neither supernatural or omnipotent.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#130 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.Snipes_2

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?

Well, none of us are gonna know - we aren't the ones that are infinitely wise. But an omnimax God should know how.
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SgtKevali

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#131 SgtKevali
Member since 2009 • 5763 Posts

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] His wisdom is infinite, we have a Finite mind.Snipes_2

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?

I wouldn't know, I'm not God. If he's all powerful and beyond logic or reason he should be able to instantly find a way.

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Snipes_2

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#132 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

urdead18

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?

So God can't do that? Clearly he's not omnipotent.

You think you're FINITE mind can hold an INFINITE amount of Knowledge? I don't.

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SolidSnake35

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#133 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts
Better yet.urdead18
The problem of evil is a poor show. Free will deals with that.
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SteveTabernacle

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#134 SteveTabernacle
Member since 2010 • 2584 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Did the Napkin perform any Miracles, did multiple people affirm these miracles? IS the Napkin a Material thing?

Yes it did. I was just divinely inspired to write down his holy acts, he made everything, wiped our faces, and went to the multiverse to fight Godzilla. He's coming back in three thousand years. I was also divinely inspired to list a great number of people who can affirm these miracles, and you can't prove they didn't see them because I just wrote it down, because I was divinely inspired, I don't need to have seen it, and you can't prove I wasn't divinely inspired, so you must accept it as evidence that I was in fact divinely inspired.
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scorch-62

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#135 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Darth-Caedus"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] The Proof is in the Bible, which for some reason you don't accept.

Why do you believe in the bible any more then Odin? Zeus? Any of the other countless man made gods?

The Bible was written through the Holy Spirit with Gods hand, there are miracles etc..to prove that there is a God. Zeus and Odin are man Made Myths there's nothing to say that they exist.

Every religion has "miracles."
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Ninja-Hippo

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#136 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Two problems with applying Occam's Razor to this: 1) Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is USUALLY the correct one. Not always. 2) The simplest explanation here is allegedly that God created the universe, however when you consider the theoretical and philosophical implications of that fact it's actually INCREDIBLY complicated and not even remotely simple at all. The notion that the Universe came to be via scientific processes of some kind (but which we currently do not understand) like everything else we examine being governed by scientific processes seems like a much more simple explanation.

I'm only using it to suggest a theistic god over some stupid monster. I think probability suggests God over a scientific explanation. In most possible universes, science of our kind probably doesn't even exist. You'd have various other sciences. Probably all of them would be equally useless for explaining anything beyond its own respective universe.

I am simply concerned with the application of Occam's Razor in saying that 'God made it' is the simplest explanation. The notion that everything was made by an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving superbeing comes with vastly more complex implications than the explanation of 'things were made by some scientific process which we as yet do not understand.'
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Snipes_2

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#137 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

SgtKevali

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?

I wouldn't know, I'm not God. If he's all powerful and beyond logic or reason he should be able to instantly find a way.

No, God doesn't just snap His fingers and alter our world. We were created in His image, Earth is essentially a proving ground of sorts.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#138 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

They can't explain how the Universe was Formed and they can't prove that there is no God. To compensate for this, scientists use "Coincidence".

Snipes_2

:| TY Snipes for fitting the stereotypes.. Scientists never claim there is no god, but there is no evidence that there is one so there is no point in discussing it.. Its a matteri n faith.. And the big bang was not the creation of matter just the main cause in what made the unvierse take the form it is today.. There is no such thing as "coincidence" in sicence, there is probability..

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urdead18

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#139 urdead18
Member since 2008 • 3630 Posts

[QUOTE="urdead18"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?Snipes_2

So God can't do that? Clearly he's not omnipotent.

You think you're FINITE mind can hold an INFINITE amount of Knowledge? I don't.

If he's omnipotent I'm sure he can make it happen. He can do anything, ya know.
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Snipes_2

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#140 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Darth-Caedus"]Why do you believe in the bible any more then Odin? Zeus? Any of the other countless man made gods? scorch-62
The Bible was written through the Holy Spirit with Gods hand, there are miracles etc..to prove that there is a God. Zeus and Odin are man Made Myths there's nothing to say that they exist.

Every religion has "miracles."

Were they witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people claiming they saw the same thing?
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SteveTabernacle

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#141 SteveTabernacle
Member since 2010 • 2584 Posts
The problem of evil is a poor show. Free will deals with that.SolidSnake35
Free will can't exist if god is both omnipotent and omniscient as he is typically described to be.
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Ninja-Hippo

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#142 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] There's the problem, you showed me a picture of "The Holy Napkin" therefore it is a material object, the napkin is neither supernatural or omnipotent.

No, the napkin is the scripture. The napkin god is invisible and omnipotent. The napkin merely proves his existence by saying he exists. ;)
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Hewkii

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#143 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
Were they witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people claiming they saw the same thing?Snipes_2
yup.
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urdead18

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#145 urdead18
Member since 2008 • 3630 Posts
[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?Snipes_2

I wouldn't know, I'm not God. If he's all powerful and beyond logic or reason he should be able to instantly find a way.

No, God doesn't just snap His fingers and alter our world. We were created in His image, Earth is essentially a proving ground of sorts.

Why would an omnipotent being need people to worship him? An omnipotent being would be infinite so why would he need finite worship?
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SolidSnake35

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#146 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

If god is all powerful shouldn't he be able to find a way to share that wisdom?

SgtKevali

No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?

I wouldn't know, I'm not God. If he's all powerful and beyond logic or reason he should be able to instantly find a way.

He's not beyond logic. God can't make circular squares. And that is not in any way detrimental to the concept of an omnipotent god.
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Snipes_2

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#147 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="urdead18"] So God can't do that? Clearly he's not omnipotent.urdead18

You think you're FINITE mind can hold an INFINITE amount of Knowledge? I don't.

If he's omnipotent I'm sure he can make it happen. He can do anything, ya know.

That doesn't even make sense. How can something finite hold an infinite amount of anything. If we had an infinite amount of knowledge we would be God too.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#148 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No, how would you like him to share an Infinite amount of wisdom?Snipes_2

I wouldn't know, I'm not God. If he's all powerful and beyond logic or reason he should be able to instantly find a way.

No, God doesn't just snap His fingers and alter our world. We were created in His image, Earth is essentially a proving ground of sorts.

Don't you think thats extremely arrogant and pompus? We are less then insignificant in the grand scheme of things.... Do you realize how large the universe is? We can't even produce the amount of energy for the small events that occur within our very own solar system..

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GabuEx

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#149 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

1. As I said I dont believe the earth is 7,000 years old. I keep an open mind that it could be billions of years old and perhaps even more. But what do fossils have to do with anything? Once again, you are putting the entire evolution of an entire species on one units mutation. You actually think that this one mutated and evolved reptile spawned the entire new generation of reptiles with the same trait, and that information was never lost. Thats nonsense. The odds of every member of a species evolving a trait and being able to pass that along is already disproved in labs. When virus's are subjected to harsh conditions, they die. When a species is subjected to harsh conditions, they die. Its possible a few survived, but the idea that the entire species can then be reborn with the new traits forever onward is NONSENSE. and your fossils prove it. The same dinosaurs found on the western hemisphere adapted the same traits as the same type of dino found on the eastern hemisphere separated by thousands of miles well after pangea split apart...yet somehow that uncommon adapted and evolved trait formed around the world? Lol is all i can say to that one.

deadpool86x

One word: superbugs. Bacteria resistent to antibiotics, which were naturally selected as they were the ones to survive the exposure to that antibiotic. This has been observed in practice.

Another word: speciation. Take two members of the same species, separate them into separate environments, and come back later. Now you have two new species, each adapted to their environment. This has been observed in practice.

Your claim is false.

2. That is 100% your opinion and not fact in the slightest degree. You'd never be able to tell if this species was related and the evolved form of another. Over billions of years, the changes would be so drastic, you'd not be able to see it. The simple fact that you said this is proof that you think sudden drastic changes have to had occurred all at the same time across the entire species.

deadpool86x

Not my opinion at all. Fish have defining traits that identify them as fish. So do amphibians, and so do reptiles, birds, and mammals. Fossils have been found that have traits in two classes - but always only two classes, never three or more.

Your claim is false.

3. Carbon Dating is proven to be dreadfully inaccurate. There was a discovery program on recently that showed a scientists trying to date a synthetic something with a real thing, both were dated the same and one was created hours before in a lab. Its a joke of a test and not at all credible. Your textbooks say it, therefore its true to you.

deadpool86x

A few things:

1. Carbon dating is a case of garbage-in-garbage-out. You could synthesize something that seems artificially old by carefully measuring the proportion between radioactive carbon and stable carbon. However, when used on something that has been unsubjected to contamination, it is reasonably accurate, and many carbon-dated items have agreed with other forms of dating, like tree rings and ice cores.

2. Carbon dating is not used to date fossils.

3. There are forms of dating that are resistant to contamination, which fall under the banner of isochron dating.

Your claim is false, and your mention of carbon dating when fossils are dated through other means proves that you do not even understand the barest essentials of that which you are attempting to rebut.

4. If you could prove that, you would be the absolutely first being on earth to do so. The only thing that connects us in my mind is that we are born of the same atoms and material found after stars explode. That entire logic in nonsense.

deadpool86x

Sorry, but wrong. If you name me any two organisms on Earth, I can list you all of their common traits.

Youor claim is false.

5. Once again, that is not a logical defense in the slightest. You again think that one mutated creature in a species that is composed of possible hundreds of billions like insects, repopulated the entire species with that one trait that lingered onward for billions of years. Sorry, but flies that exist in Russia adapted the same traits as those found in Canada. Separated by thousands of miles and subjected to different conditions but all of them adapted the same way? You think because we have remnants of a tailbone that we are somehow related to another species? Thats not at all proven or scientific fact and is 100% fabricated opinion.

deadpool86x

If we did not evolve from an animal with a tail, then why do we have a tailbone?

If flightless birds did not evolve from birds that flew, then why do they have hollow bones?

No offense, but I believe that you are being wilfully ignorant here: you are not even attempting to understand anything at all, and are merely attempting to understand the barest essentials of the argument so you can attempt to mount a rebuttal.

Getting back to what this was about, I believe that evolution is set forth by a control, a god or whatever you wish to call it. I do not believe that 0 can produce a number that not only repeats itself infinitely, but is a specific number that adapted itself to fit the conditions around it on a universal scale. The day you can justify 0+0=any number is the day I wont believe in god.

the idea that God is 1 and always existed is mathematically and scientifically accurate, and that 1 always existed and created. 1+x=y

the idea that there is no god and the universe always existed as a singularity represented by 0, but then created something else on an infinitely repeating and SPECIFIC to the needs of life at the start of all things is NONSENSE. 0+0=0. Those who dont believe in god denounce all mathematics. the idea that nothing created itself and then something else and again something else repeating a specific number

deadpool86x

What you have just said here is a meaningless ad hoc combination of science and mathematics that is neither valid science nor valid mathematics, and as such there is nothing even here for me to rebut, as you have made no coherent claims that can be rebutted.

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Hewkii

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#150 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
He's not beyond logic. God can't make circular squares. And that is not in any way detrimental to the concept of an omnipotent god.SolidSnake35
why not? why is logic more powerful than God? didn't he make it?