"France moves closer to banning full Muslim veil"

Wasn't the culture of the Jews starting to overwhelm the German culture or something..it's their country...so they can preserve their culture...i don't see anything wrong with it..

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Yes that too, which exemplifies the imperfections regarding this policy, but it gives these women who are being forced to wear this symbol of female subservience a way out. While it bans women from wearing it voluntarily, at the same time it bans men from forcing women to wear it, and I think that justifies the policy.Hewkii

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Wasn't the culture of the Jews starting to overwhelm the German culture or something..it's their country...so they can preserve their culture...i don't see anything wrong with it..

67gt500

The problem being such moves are essentially ethnocentrism. Who is the judge that says one culture is superior to another? It sure as hell isn't Sarkozy.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]Those actually have some kind of precedent that isn't going to offend anyone.AirGuitarist87

Here's a list of clothing articles that offend me, please work to banning them:

Nose rings (in fact, rings period)

Those shirts that stop just above the waist

Saggy pants

Underwear with those heart patterns (even I'm not that fruity)

Satanic symbols on shirts, pants, necklaces, and hats

Novelty T-shirts

Shirts with those kids peeing on something

Salt Life shirts

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]Those actually have some kind of precedent that isn't going to offend anyone.AirGuitarist87

Every nation has a right to take measures to ensure their culture isn't watered-down, overwhelmed or subverted by foreign interests... France isn't proposing genocide here...67gt500

[QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"]Those actually have some kind of precedent that isn't going to offend anyone.Theokhoth

Here's a list of clothing articles that offend me, please work to banning them:

Nose rings (in fact, rings period)

Those shirts that stop just above the waist

Saggy pants

Underwear with those heart patterns (even I'm not that fruity)

Satanic symbols on shirts, pants, necklaces, and hats

Novelty T-shirts

Shirts with those kids peeing on something

Salt Life shirts

I agree with everything but the rings..:P..*grabs a poster and runs in front of a bus waving it*..:o

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="Hewkii"] this is why it's wrong.tycoonmike

The problem being such moves are essentially ethnocentrism. Who is the judge that says one culture is superior to another? It sure as hell isn't Sarkozy.

Is this policy going to make abusive, oppressive relationships a thing of the past? No. But it puts a significant number of women in a better position than they would otherwise be in if this policy weren't to be in place. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Is this policy going to make abusive, oppressive relationships a thing of the past? No. But it puts a significant number of women in a better position than they would otherwise be in if this policy weren't to be in place. Hewkii

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] Every nation has a right to take measures to ensure their culture isn't watered-down, overwhelmed or subverted by foreign interests... France isn't proposing genocide here...67gt500

The problem being such moves are essentially ethnocentrism. Who is the judge that says one culture is superior to another? It sure as hell isn't Sarkozy.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] Every nation has a right to take measures to ensure their culture isn't watered-down, overwhelmed or subverted by foreign interests... France isn't proposing genocide here...67gt500

The problem being such moves are essentially ethnocentrism. Who is the judge that says one culture is superior to another? It sure as hell isn't Sarkozy.

And that should come at the expense of all those not considered purely of Gallic blood? Not to invoke Godwin's law, but wasn't this one of the root justifications and precursors of another well-known genocide?

If they didn't want suppression maybe they shouldn't had move to such a liberal country?Zerkrender

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Is this policy going to make abusive, oppressive relationships a thing of the past? No. But it puts a significant number of women in a better position than they would otherwise be in if this policy weren't to be in place. Hewkii

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.

biggest_loser

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

The problem being such moves are essentially ethnocentrism. Who is the judge that says one culture is superior to another? It sure as hell isn't Sarkozy.

-Sun_Tzu-

I don't think that's the only reason...

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="67gt500"] As long as he's the President of France, he gets to judge... him and the rest of his government... there's only one culture that should matter to him - French Culture...67gt500

I don't think that's the only reason...

Well, no, the same would not go on. Men would not be able to force women to wear a burqa, at least in public. Just because there are other forms of oppression does not mean that we shouldn't ban this form of oppression.-Sun_Tzu-

except it's not a form of oppression, it's a part of the religious and cultural landscape of the people.

should we ban tank tops because women are more likely to be beat in them?

should we ban rope because black people are lynched by it?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Well, no, the same would not go on. Men would not be able to force women to wear a burqa, at least in public. Just because there are other forms of oppression does not mean that we shouldn't ban this form of oppression.Hewkii

except it's not a form of oppression, it's a part of the religious and cultural landscape of the people.

should we ban tank tops because women are more likely to be beat in them?

should we ban rope because black people are lynched by it?

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

The problem being such moves are essentially ethnocentrism. Who is the judge that says one culture is superior to another? It sure as hell isn't Sarkozy.

And that should come at the expense of all those not considered purely of Gallic blood? Not to invoke Godwin's law, but wasn't this one of the root justifications and precursors of another well-known genocide?

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] As long as he's the President of France, he gets to judge... him and the rest of his government... there's only one culture that should matter to him - French Culture...67gt500

And that should come at the expense of all those not considered purely of Gallic blood? Not to invoke Godwin's law, but wasn't this one of the root justifications and precursors of another well-known genocide?

I'm sure thats how the Germans felt in the 30s and 40s.

Even though I support this policy, I vehemently reject this argument based on "culture". Why is a ban on something automatically justified just because it is foreign? -Sun_Tzu-

I don't think that's the only reason...

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="67gt500"]

I don't think that's the only reason...

67gt500

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="67gt500"]

I don't think that's the only reason...

67gt500

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="Zerkrender"]If they didn't want suppression maybe they shouldn't had move to such a liberal country?Zerkrender

There are different definitions of the the term liberalism depending on the context. Liberalism, in the classical sense of the word, would include the works of people like Thomas Jefferson, John Locke, and Adam Smith. Liberalism, in the political sense of the word, are policies associated with parties such as the American Democratic Party, the English Labour Party, the French Socialist Party, and the Japanese Liberal Democratic Party, and are opposed to conservative policies such as those spouted off by the American Republican Party, the English Conservative and Unionist Party, the French Union for a Popular Movement, and the Japanese Democratic Party of Japan.

That's a false dichotomy. Just because something is a part of the religious and cultural landscape of a people does not mean that it isn't a form of oppression. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Hewkii"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Well, no, the same would not go on. Men would not be able to force women to wear a burqa, at least in public. Just because there are other forms of oppression does not mean that we shouldn't ban this form of oppression.-Sun_Tzu-

except it's not a form of oppression, it's a part of the religious and cultural landscape of the people.

should we ban tank tops because women are more likely to be beat in them?

should we ban rope because black people are lynched by it?

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] As long as he's the President of France, he gets to judge... him and the rest of his government... there's only one culture that should matter to him - French Culture...67gt500

And that should come at the expense of all those not considered purely of Gallic blood? Not to invoke Godwin's law, but wasn't this one of the root justifications and precursors of another well-known genocide?

And like it or not the people who wear the Burqas in the case of the article are French. They are just as much a part of France as Nicolas Sarkozy himself is. You would deny them the right to express their religious beliefs while claiming the native culture is superior? THAT is ethnocentrism and is the exact reason why the West is so hated by everyone else. We parade around like our culture is superior to all others when we aren't the judges of that.

It would be one thing if they were slaughtering animals on altars or generally threatening the well-being of their society, but wearing a piece of cloth over ones head doesn't mean you are being abused by your husband any more than it means you're a petty thief.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]That's a false dichotomy. Just because something is a part of the religious and cultural landscape of a people does not mean that it isn't a form of oppression. Hewkii

Well, I am arguing that the burqa is inherently designed to be oppressive.-Sun_Tzu-

even if it is, banning it will literally solve nothing and likely cause the Muslim populace to distrust civil authority even more, perpetuating problems of 'oppression' (abuse) that you seem to naively think are intrinsically tied to this clothing.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Hewkii"]

except it's not a form of oppression, it's a part of the religious and cultural landscape of the people.

should we ban tank tops because women are more likely to be beat in them?

should we ban rope because black people are lynched by it?

PannicAtack

I don't know if I'd call it oppressive, at worst I'd say it's excessive, and it's certainly nowhere near as bad as forcing women to wear it against their will.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="biggest_loser"] How is it humiliating? biggest_loser

That's the thing, a lot of women aren't being given that choice right now. So we are faced with two realistic options, maintain the status quo, where a significant number of women are being forced to wear the burqa, or ban the burqa, so that no one is forced to wear it.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I don't know if I'd call it oppressive, at worst I'd say it's excessive, and it's certainly nowhere near as bad as forcing women to wear it against their will.Hewkii

By that logic, though, the French government should ignore them if they start killing people of different faiths and they justify it as a command from the Almighty to make war against the infidel.

By that logic, though, the French government should ignore them if they start killing people of different faiths and they justify it as a command from the Almighty to make war against the infidel.

tycoonmike

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Well, I am arguing that the burqa is inherently designed to be oppressive.Hewkii

even if it is, banning it will literally solve nothing and likely cause the Muslim populace to distrust civil authority even more, perpetuating problems of 'oppression' (abuse) that you seem to naively think are intrinsically tied to this clothing.

How am I being naive? It is designed to restrict your movements - it is designed to eliminate your peripheral vision. These things aren't just coincidences. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I don't know if I'd call it oppressive, at worst I'd say it's excessive, and it's certainly nowhere near as bad as forcing women to wear it against their will.tycoonmike

By that logic, though, the French government should ignore them if they start killing people of different faiths and they justify it as a command from the Almighty to make war against the infidel.

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] How does it even constitute as a reason in the first place? Why is it more acceptable to ban things just because they are "foreign" and seemingly different? -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] I don't think that's their rationale here...67gt500

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I don't know if I'd call it oppressive, at worst I'd say it's excessive, and it's certainly nowhere near as bad as forcing women to wear it against their will.Hewkii