"France moves closer to banning full Muslim veil"

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Then why is it that men do not wear anything that resembles a burqa? I seriously doubt that it's because men enjoy having sand in their face.

Hewkii

I mean, just take your pick. Which would you rather wear, regardless of gender?

This:

Or this:

I mean, just take your pick. Which would you rather wear, regardless of gender?

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]All the while stomping on centuries of cultural values. Lovely.SkylinePigeon

Again, I don't think that this the perfect policy, but it is the best policy available, and I think that it would be better than the status quo.

This may seem like a simple issue, but if you let your freedoms get picked away one by one, someday you may have none left.SkylinePigeon

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Yes that too, which exemplifies the imperfections regarding this policy, but it gives these women who are being forced to wear this symbol of female subservience a way out. While it bans women from wearing it voluntarily, at the same time it bans men from forcing women to wear it, and I think that justifies the policy.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

I mean, just take your pick. Which would you rather wear, regardless of gender?

Hewkii

This is an excellent move. Misogyny is misogyny, even if it's under the guise of religion.Good-Apollo

This is an excellent move. Misogyny is misogyny, even if it's under the guise of religion.Good-Apollo

Even with that linen rapped around his face, you would still be able to recognize him, more or less, and he still maintains his peripheral vision-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Good-Apollo"]This is an excellent move. Misogyny is misogyny, even if it's under the guise of religion.SquatsAreAwesom

[QUOTE="SquatsAreAwesom"][QUOTE="Good-Apollo"]This is an excellent move. Misogyny is misogyny, even if it's under the guise of religion.Good-Apollo

How intolerant of them. Jaks_Secret

[QUOTE="SkylinePigeon"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Well, I'd argue that the culture of oppressing women by forcing them to wear this garment isn't very valuable at all.

Again, I don't think that this the perfect policy, but it is the best policy available, and I think that it would be better than the status quo.

-Sun_Tzu-

You get real buddy, sexism in [religion] has been going on since its very start, it's ingrained, so of course many followers won't know any better. However it doesn't make it any less misogynistic Hewkii

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Even with that linen rapped around his face, you would still be able to recognize him, more or less, and he still maintains his peripheral visionHewkii

Wow, how if France getting away with this? Banning a religious piece of clothing is just wrong, especially for the reasons France is probably doing it for...

Good. It is clearly oppressive to women, no matter what many Muslims say. And yes, this ban is somewhat discriminatory, but so what? In Germany, they don't allow there citizens to wear or put up swastikas or other Nazi symbols or in the U.S., they would not let a person wear or put up clearly racist messages. The Burka, like these examples, is a representation of something that nation doesn't stand for (in this case, the oppression of women). To ensure the ideals of that nation are upheld, sometimes they have to limit certain freedoms.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] While some of those who support this policy may have ethnocentric motives, this policy is being pushed in France by many people who would otherwise support pluralism and multiculturalism. Now, I think that your concern is somewhat legitimate, but as you've said, there is really not that much empirical evidence that shows what effect a ban would have on a women's life, so I think we should at least try this course of action and see how it turns out.SkylinePigeon

Getting back to a complete ban on burqas, as I've said, going out into public does not mean much to these women as of now. It doesn't really carry the same degree of liberty that it would otherwise carry, if it carries any at all. And so while I feel as if a large number of women being forced to stay inside might be a possible outcome of this policy (although I do not think that it's a probable outcome), I think the situation is dire enough that this should at least be tried. Unfortunately these women don't have much to lose; the burqa erases a woman's identity from society, and this policy could potentially give them their identity back. That's a huge upside.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="SkylinePigeon"] See my previous reply. If they are being forced by their husbands, the solution is not to take away the burqa, the solution is to do something about the husband. An analogous situation: many children in the US are beaten until bloody with leather belts. Do you make those illegal? You can't. Just because someone may do something immoral with an object doesn't mean that object should be banned. At least not in a democratic country.SkylinePigeon

As for the practically of the burqa that some women believe it has, here's an interesting and somewhat insightful op-ed byMona Eltahaway, a Muslim feminist.

Here's an excerpt:

"I wore a headscarf for nine years. An argument I had on the Cairo subway with a woman who wore a burqa helped seal for good my refusal to defend it. Dressed in black from head to toe, the woman asked me why I did not wear the burqa. I pointed to my headscarf and asked her "Is this not enough?"

"If you wanted a piece of candy, would you choose an unwrapped piece or one that came in a wrapper?" she asked."

Now obviously this is the view of just one woman who is "pro-burqa", but I doubt that she is alone in her opinion. I'd wager that quite a few women who wear the burqa think like that, because that's what they've been taught, that's all they know.

All in all, I despise the burqah as a Muslim.

in the U.S., they would not let a person wear or put up clearly racist messages.redstorm72

Also, as for Germany, you should know as a gamer that this is a bad, baaad example.

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

in the U.S., they would not let a person wear or put up clearly racist messages.PannicAtack

Also, as for Germany, you should know as a gamer that this is a bad, baaad example.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

in the U.S., they would not let a person wear or put up clearly racist messages.redstorm72

Also, as for Germany, you should know as a gamer that this is a bad, baaad example.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

in the U.S., they would not let a person wear or put up clearly racist messages.redstorm72

Also, as for Germany, you should know as a gamer that this is a bad, baaad example.

Sucks to be a muslim woman living in France. They could always make the short journey over to England. We let anyone live in our Country.

This is all a side effect of events that have long been forseen by anyone who was watching the fertility rates in Europe. The problem is the average person of true French descent is only having a small family. This would explain why France's fertility rate is 1.8. That means for every couple you have one or two children being born. That simply isn't enough to compete with Muslim immigrants who are having large families that consist of eight children. Muslims aren't taking over Europe by force, or even intentionally as a whole, they are just out breeding Europeans. You combine this with the fact that is traditionally taboo in Muslim societies for women to marry an non-islamic man and you have a religion that is designed to grow rapidly.

More laws like this are going to be passed ( as was seen in Switzerland) as Europeans begin to feel more of what they perceive as foreign influence in their countries. Small things that would have been glanced over 10 years ago (like a girl wearing a burka) become a big deal when 1/6 of the youth wear one (not an actual statistic I'm just using it for this analogy). Its not racism really, people are just feeling protective of their culture.

If the entire point of banning burqa is because it represents oppression toward women, I don't think that alone is enough justification to warrant a ban. Sure, you have freed those who were truly oppressed, but at the exact same time it becomes an oppression to those who wants to wear burqa out of their own free will. In the name of freeing an oppressed group, you have just put the same oppression upon another... is that a fair trade off?

I like to think of it as an abusive relationship. If a woman married to someone who abuses her physically and mentally, unless she comes out to testify against him and his crimes in court, there's not much anyone else can do about it.

Ones idea of freedom does not necessary mean the same thing for different people. Just because a burqa is the symbol of oppression for the western society, that doesn't necessarily make it so for different countries/cultures. Furthermore, how would one liberate people from being oppressed if the people you are trying to liberate don't think they are being oppressed? From the limited numbers of articles I've came across about this issue, it appears there are quite a few women who voluntarily chose to wear a burqa. These gals sure don't seem too oppressed to me.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Seems like an intolerant, totalitarian move to me.

67gt500

By that argument, it would be fair to abuse POW's, just because the other side does so. Fact is, two wrongs do not make a right.

wish the US could be tolerant like Western Europe.....Omni-Slash

This is only cool when europe and USA do it.. if the middle east or china does something like this though....... yea.. they are the worst places ever!! TEH FREEDOM!!

If the entire point of banning burqa is because it represents oppression toward women, I don't think that alone is enough justification to warrant a ban.

ariz3260

Eh. France has the right to enact their laws. Others have the right to chose not to live there. LJS9502_basic

Eh. France has the right to enact their laws. Others have the right to chose not to live there. LJS9502_basic

Must suck for the people already in France who either have nowhere to go or are without the resources to just up and leave the country.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Eh. France has the right to enact their laws. Others have the right to chose not to live there. Theokhoth

Must suck for the people already in France who either have nowhere to go or are without the resources to just up and leave the country.

another thing, Europe and the USA should kick all muslims out and get it over with. Seriously, we just dont mix at all. and about the muslims living in Europe and the USA, why living their in the first place? GazaAli

Yeah. We do that, and we end up going back to the days of the OPEC embargo. Besides, what you may see on the news is by no means the reality of the situation in the United States or, assumedly, Europe. There is only a very small minority of people, fundamentalist Christians mostly, who loathe Muslims. On the whole, I would think that people are tolerant and supportive of Islam and Islamic culture. It's ethnocentrism, like that which is being debated in France, that causes others to hate the West so much.