"France moves closer to banning full Muslim veil"

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]another thing, Europe and the USA should kick all muslims out and get it over with. Seriously, we just dont mix at all. and about the muslims living in Europe and the USA, why living their in the first place? tycoonmike

Yeah. We do that, and we end up going back to the days of the OPEC embargo. Besides, what you may see on the news is by no means the reality of the situation in the United States or, assumedly, Europe. There is only a very small minority of people, fundamentalist Christians mostly, who loathe Muslims. On the whole, I would think that people are tolerant and supportive of Islam and Islamic culture. It's ethnocentrism, like that which is being debated in France, that causes others to hate the West so much.

Eh. France has the right to enact their laws. Others have the right to chose not to live there. LJS9502_basic

I don't see Belgium doing something like this.
Hindu people are allowed to carry a dagger around.It has something to do with their religion.I'm not sure what.
They can carry it around at school.

Lto_thaG

Well it's pretty obvious what this law would do. These people are very religious and if such a law was put in place many people would leave the country which is obviously what they want to gain more control of their country again.

[QUOTE="CHOASXIII"]I will not express my personal feelings about Muslims on here because I will probably get moderated or something but in my opinion I think that wearing those things are ridiculous and I doubt most of the women want to wear them.Hewkii

:lol: nothing new here

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] its sad yes, but its also a fact. Muslims in Europe are a real problem for the Europeans. we live differently, we have completely different ideals.[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]Now, im in desperate need for an explanation. you, the westerners always brag about how FREE you can live, and how we -the religious people- are closed minded. you always and constantly talk about gay marriage and gay rights. im hate the veil with a passion, but if somebody want to go that religious let them be. and how exactly is this a part of Freedom :roll:GazaAli

If birth rates continue their current trait, Muslims will eventually be the majority in Europe in a couple of decades. These laws are being passed with the sole intention of forcing immigrants to assimilate or leave. I understand what you are saying ,but you aren't looking at it from the point of view of some Europeans. One day they might end up being a minority in the country of their ancestors and that is a very scary thought. When Muslims say things like "One day the entire world will be Muslim" Or "the entire parliament will be Muslims" it is very threatening to people who have called these countries home for hundreds of years.

From what I've seen researching this, it isn't a case of France not wanting muslims. Its a case of France wanting immigrants who embrace French culture and who are French.

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]
its sad yes, but its also a fact. Muslims in Europe are a real problem for the Europeans. we live differently, we have completely different ideals.GazaAli

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Eh. France has the right to enact their laws. Others have the right to chose not to live there. Famiking

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Famiking"] It has nothing to do with freedom...its about maintaining French culture. Birth rates among immigrants are huge in comparison to people of French ancestry. If most of of those children being born decide they don't want to assimilate into French society then that is going to be problem.UnknownSniper65

If birth rates continue their current trait, Muslims will eventually be the majority in Europe in a couple of decades. These laws are being passed with the sole intention of forcing immigrants to assimilate or leave. I understand what you are saying ,but you aren't looking at it from the point of view of some Europeans. One day they might end up being a minority in the country of their ancestors and that is a very scary thought. When Muslims say things like "One day the entire world will be Muslim" Or "the entire parliament will be Muslims" it is very threatening to people who have called these countries home for hundreds of years.

From what I've seen researching this, it isn't a case of France not wanting muslims. Its a case of France wanting immigrants who embrace French culture and who are French.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]
its sad yes, but its also a fact. Muslims in Europe are a real problem for the Europeans. we live differently, we have completely different ideals.Famiking

i get it now. read my last post.

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.

-Sun_Tzu-

wish the US could be tolerant like Western Europe.....Omni-Slash

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Famiking"]Many have obviously been able to move....since they moved to France at some point.Famiking

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]another thing, Europe and the USA should kick all muslims out and get it over with. Seriously, we just dont mix at all. and about the muslims living in Europe and the USA, why living their in the first place? GazaAli

Yeah. We do that, and we end up going back to the days of the OPEC embargo. Besides, what you may see on the news is by no means the reality of the situation in the United States or, assumedly, Europe. There is only a very small minority of people, fundamentalist Christians mostly, who loathe Muslims. On the whole, I would think that people are tolerant and supportive of Islam and Islamic culture. It's ethnocentrism, like that which is being debated in France, that causes others to hate the West so much.

I would think that Europe, given its history of ethnocentrism, the barbaric treatment of aboriginal people, and the total destruction that awaits them if they let it run amok, would want to make amends, but unfortunately history doesn't play out that way. I'd wager any money that one of the root causes of this idea of French cultural superiority over Muslim culture was the Battle of Tours, where the Franks under Charles Martel defeated an Umayyad Caliphate army under Abdul Rahman al Ghafiqi and "preserved" Christian Europe from further invasion by Muslim forces.

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] And? That just demonstrates that it's not impossible for a move out of a place where one is not happy.LJS9502_basic

Anyway, I have to go now.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Yeah. We do that, and we end up going back to the days of the OPEC embargo. Besides, what you may see on the news is by no means the reality of the situation in the United States or, assumedly, Europe. There is only a very small minority of people, fundamentalist Christians mostly, who loathe Muslims. On the whole, I would think that people are tolerant and supportive of Islam and Islamic culture. It's ethnocentrism, like that which is being debated in France, that causes others to hate the West so much.

tycoonmike

I would think that Europe, given its history of ethnocentrism, the barbaric treatment of aboriginal people, and the total destruction that awaits them if they let it run amok, would want to make amends, but unfortunately history doesn't play out that way. I'd wager any money that one of the root causes of this idea of French cultural superiority over Muslim culture was the Battle of Tours, where the Franks under Charles Martel defeated an Umayyad Caliphate army under Abdul Rahman al Ghafiqi and "preserved" Christian Europe from further invasion by Muslim forces.

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] And? That just demonstrates that it's not impossible for a move out of a place where one is not happy.LJS9502_basic

So should the US be preventing Jews from wearing Yarmulkes then? That certainly isn't a part of WASP culture.

Diversity is a good thing. It enables people to learn of things outside their culture. If everyone conforms, we'd lose a lot.

Also, how is wearing a garment forcing anyone to conform to your culture? It's entirely a personal choice.

Considering how things are going in Europe in general I can hardly Blame the French

There is a population group that grows at an insane rate, a group that generally dislike or downright despise the laws and customs of said country.

Heck often they dont even go to normal schools, but rather schools to teach and enforce thier view and culture.

In less then 2 generations they will likely be the majority, a majority with no concepts of human rights, or the historical understanding of the west, in other words the European culture will cease to exist

A very large"muslim" groupin Europe dont really give a da*n about integration, they do not wish to particiate in the society on equal terms, and they are incredibly hostile by Default.

Any western value means nothing to them, they dont even dislike western morales, they hate them.

And then I wonder: If you move to another country you pretty much have to fit into that countries way of things, If I moved to the middle east I would live by the rules of society and norms there, the same thing if I moved to Asia.

It is a fairly common train of thought throughout Europe, it might be called hypocritical, and It may be called totalitarian, but you must understand that there are 2 very alrge groups whos train of thoughts are completely alien to one another, none of them likes whatthey see.

Given those circumstances I understand the French completely, it was thier country to begin with, and they sure as he*l wont bow down.

This might sound like a very simple way of seeing things, but most people can not think too complex thoughts to begin with.

I guess we will see how it goes, and what happens. worst case scenario is likely a civil war in a generation or two, or thethousands of years of unique culture vanishing together with the people who once lived there.

In another word: Think Indians in the US, since it is very likely to repeat itself.

To judge the actions of a population or goverment soley on an article without knowing the backgrounds of things, and the situation of things, is beyond dumb. And while I dislike a goverment telling people how to dress, I do see this at a clumbsy attempt to try to begin integration of a large group by force.

Note: It does pi*s me off somewhat that (I wont say Muslims because it is not muslims, but rather a demographic based on locale) most of the huge group of people usually referred as "muslims" are refugees they are allowed in the countries because they are fleeing persecution, and supression, but somehow they send thier children back to the exact same country as tehy "fled" from in order to be a true "muslim" and have those morals.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Famiking"] Would you move from a country where the average income is $40,000 to one where it is $4,000? What about naturalized French citizens and second generation people? What about people who take up more skilled jobs? You're infringing on their rights. The "if you don't want it then leave" is a poor argument for anything other than buying consumer goods/services. It's not a simple choice.majoras_wrath

So should the US be preventing Jews from wearing Yarmulkes then? That certainly isn't a part of WASP culture.

Diversity is a good thing. It enables people to learn of things outside their culture. If everyone conforms, we'd lose a lot.

Also, how is wearing a garment forcing anyone to conform to your culture? It's entirely a personal choice.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Depends on if keeping the culture is more important than the money. One can't move to another country and expect them to conform to one's culture. One has to acclimatize.LJS9502_basic

So should the US be preventing Jews from wearing Yarmulkes then? That certainly isn't a part of WASP culture.

Diversity is a good thing. It enables people to learn of things outside their culture. If everyone conforms, we'd lose a lot.

Also, how is wearing a garment forcing anyone to conform to your culture? It's entirely a personal choice.

Considering how things are going in Europe in general I can hardly Blame the French

There is a population group that grows at an insane rate, a group that generally dislike or downright despise the laws and customs of said country.

Heck often they dont even go to normal schools, but rather schools to teach and enforce thier view and culture.

In less then 2 generations they will likely be the majority, a majority with no concepts of human rights, or the historical understanding of the west, in other words the European culture will cease to exist

A very large"muslim" groupin Europe dont really give a da*n about integration, they do not wish to particiate in the society on equal terms, and they are incredibly hostile by Default.

Any western value means nothing to them, they dont even dislike western morales, they hate them.

And then I wonder: If you move to another country you pretty much have to fit into that countries way of things, If I moved to the middle east I would live by the rules of society and norms there, the same thing if I moved to Asia.

It is a fairly common train of thought throughout Europe, it might be called hypocritical, and It may be called totalitarian, but you must understand that there are 2 very alrge groups whos train of thoughts are completely alien to one another, none of them likes whatthey see.

Given those circumstances I understand the French completely, it was thier country to begin with, and they sure as he*l wont bow down.

This might sound like a very simple way of seeing things, but most people can not think too complex thoughts to begin with.

I guess we will see how it goes, and what happens. worst case scenario is likely a civil war in a generation or two, or thethousands of years of unique culture vanishing together with the people who once lived there.

In another word: Think Indians in the US, since it is very likely to repeat itself.

To judge the actions of a population or goverment soley on an article without knowing the backgrounds of things, and the situation of things, is beyond dumb. And while I dislike a goverment telling people how to dress, I do see this at a clumbsy attempt to try to begin integration of a large group by force.

Note: It does pi*s me off somewhat that (I wont say Muslims because it is not muslims, but rather a demographic based on locale) most of the huge group of people usually referred as "muslims" are refugees they are allowed in the countries because they are fleeing persecution, and supression, but somehow they send thier children back to the exact same country as tehy "fled" from in order to be a true "muslim" and have those morals.

Maddie_Larkin

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Depends on if keeping the culture is more important than the money. One can't move to another country and expect them to conform to one's culture. One has to acclimatize.LJS9502_basic

So should the US be preventing Jews from wearing Yarmulkes then? That certainly isn't a part of WASP culture.

Diversity is a good thing. It enables people to learn of things outside their culture. If everyone conforms, we'd lose a lot.

Also, how is wearing a garment forcing anyone to conform to your culture? It's entirely a personal choice.

It's still a way for Jews to assert their culture, and according to you they should conform.

I highly doubt many Muslims are trying to force others to wear their burqa, so why should we care? If it's a question of abuse, then address the abuse, not some ancillary aspect of some abuse.

Banning the burqa solves nothing, and is little more then a xenophobic ploy to try to keep "them terrorists out!".

[QUOTE="Maddie_Larkin"]

Considering how things are going in Europe in general I can hardly Blame the French

There is a population group that grows at an insane rate, a group that generally dislike or downright despise the laws and customs of said country.

Like you said, thats a huge generalization.

Heck often they dont even go to normal schools, but rather schools to teach and enforce thier view and culture.

Kind of like private catholic schools huh?

In less then 2 generations they will likely be the majority, a majority with no concepts of human rights, or the historical understanding of the west, in other words the European culture will cease to exist

Again, a generalization.

A very large"muslim" groupin Europe dont really give a da*n about integration, they do not wish to particiate in the society on equal terms, and they are incredibly hostile by Default.

And again...

Any western value means nothing to them, they dont even dislike western morales, they hate them.

Believe it or not: Muslims read essentially the same bible as you do, only with certain additions that make it the Koran

And then I wonder: If you move to another country you pretty much have to fit into that countries way of things, If I moved to the middle east I would live by the rules of society and norms there, the same thing if I moved to Asia.

Who says they don't? Wearing the burqa may be out of the "norm" but it effects nobody else. Very few Muslims try to "change the rules", most just want a quiet life

It is a fairly common train of thought throughout Europe, it might be called hypocritical, and It may be called totalitarian, but you must understand that there are 2 very alrge groups whos train of thoughts are completely alien to one another, none of them likes whatthey see.

Given those circumstances I understand the French completely, it was thier country to begin with, and they sure as he*l wont bow down.

This might sound like a very simple way of seeing things, but most people can not think too complex thoughts to begin with.

I guess we will see how it goes, and what happens. worst case scenario is likely a civil war in a generation or two, or thethousands of years of unique culture vanishing together with the people who once lived there.

In another word: Think Indians in the US, since it is very likely to repeat itself.

Where a majority massacred a minority? With this sort of mindset, sure. Remember that Muslims are likely not to become a majority any time soon.

To judge the actions of a population or goverment soley on an article without knowing the backgrounds of things, and the situation of things, is beyond dumb. And while I dislike a goverment telling people how to dress, I do see this at a clumbsy attempt to try to begin integration of a large group by force.

Then why are you arguing?

Note: It does pi*s me off somewhat that (I wont say Muslims because it is not muslims, but rather a demographic based on locale) most of the huge group of people usually referred as "muslims" are refugees they are allowed in the countries because they are fleeing persecution, and supression, but somehow they send thier children back to the exact same country as tehy "fled" from in order to be a true "muslim" and have those morals.

F1_2004

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

So should the US be preventing Jews from wearing Yarmulkes then? That certainly isn't a part of WASP culture.

Diversity is a good thing. It enables people to learn of things outside their culture. If everyone conforms, we'd lose a lot.

Also, how is wearing a garment forcing anyone to conform to your culture? It's entirely a personal choice.

majoras_wrath

It's still a way for Jews to assert their culture, and according to you they should conform.

I highly doubt many Muslims are trying to force others to wear their burqa, so why should we care? If it's a question of abuse, then address the abuse, not some ancillary aspect of some abuse.

Banning the burqa solves nothing, and is little more then a xenophobic ploy to try to keep "them terrorists out!".

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]There is a difference between something worn on the head....and something that covers a face. -Sun_Tzu-

It's still a way for Jews to assert their culture, and according to you they should conform.

I highly doubt many Muslims are trying to force others to wear their burqa, so why should we care? If it's a question of abuse, then address the abuse, not some ancillary aspect of some abuse.

Banning the burqa solves nothing, and is little more then a xenophobic ploy to try to keep "them terrorists out!".

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

Putting a blanket "cure-all" on what is an serious issue, that is, domestic abuse, creates more problems then it helps. Burqa or no burqa, these wives of abusive husbands still will be abused.

Rather, why not try to set up shelters for battered women? Or more serious laws against domestic abuse? Banning an article of clothing is illogical.

And how do you distinguish between which women are voluntarily wearing burqas and those who are wearing the burqa against their will?

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

-Sun_Tzu-

The people wearing it against their will could always complain to the police, even still that's like saying lets ban all hats because someone might be wearing it against their will.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Well, I am arguing that the burqa is inherently designed to be oppressive.-Sun_Tzu-

even if it is, banning it will literally solve nothing and likely cause the Muslim populace to distrust civil authority even more, perpetuating problems of 'oppression' (abuse) that you seem to naively think are intrinsically tied to this clothing.

Um no, it was first designed as a sand-mask to prevent facial damage from the harsh, arid conditions of the desert. It is still commonly worn by women as well as men today.

Most western countries already have shelters for battered women and pretty serious anti-abuse laws. That's no reason not to ban clothing that is used to oppress women.F1_2004

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

It's still a way for Jews to assert their culture, and according to you they should conform.

I highly doubt many Muslims are trying to force others to wear their burqa, so why should we care? If it's a question of abuse, then address the abuse, not some ancillary aspect of some abuse.

Banning the burqa solves nothing, and is little more then a xenophobic ploy to try to keep "them terrorists out!".

majoras_wrath

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

And I don't know who thinks that this ban would represent a "cure-all" for women oppression in Islamic society, I certainly don't and I don't think that those in the French government do either, but it would take away one form of oppression.

[QUOTE="F1_2004"]Most western countries already have shelters for battered women and pretty serious anti-abuse laws. That's no reason not to ban clothing that is used to oppress women.majoras_wrath

There is a population group that grows at an insane rate, a group that generally dislike or downright despise the laws and customs of said country.

Heck often they dont even go to normal schools, but rather schools to teach and enforce thier view and culture.

In less then 2 generations they will likely be the majority, a majority with no concepts of human rights, or the historical understanding of the west, in other words the [local] culture will cease to existMaddie_Larkin

Catholics_in_the_US.txt

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

And how do you distinguish between which women are voluntarily wearing burqas and those who are wearing the burqa against their will?

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

Espada12

The people wearing it against their will could always complain to the police, even still that's like saying lets ban all hats because someone might be wearing it against their will.

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Hewkii"]

even if it is, banning it will literally solve nothing and likely cause the Muslim populace to distrust civil authority even more, perpetuating problems of 'oppression' (abuse) that you seem to naively think are intrinsically tied to this clothing.

TheAbbeFaria

Um no, it was first designed as a sand-mask to prevent facial damage from the harsh, arid conditions of the desert. It is still commonly worn by women as well as men today.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

And how do you distinguish between which women are voluntarily wearing burqas and those who are wearing the burqa against their will?

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

-Sun_Tzu-

The people wearing it against their will could always complain to the police, even still that's like saying lets ban all hats because someone might be wearing it against their will.

In a modern democratic nation, it is inherently unlawful for any individual to force another individual to wear something or do something they do not agree with. Instead of banning an article of clothing that is arguably not oppressive at all, why not make it easier and safer for woman, oppressed by their husbands, to receive help. I do not know what is so difficult about going to an agency, telling them that you're in an oppressive marriage, and that you desire a safe way of getting out of it.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

Hewkii

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

And how do you distinguish between which women are voluntarily wearing burqas and those who are wearing the burqa against their will?

Bank robbery is illegal, but then so is wearing a ski mask in a bank. Why? Because if the latter weren't illegal it'd be harder to distinguish between regular people and bank robbers. The same logic applies here.

-Sun_Tzu-

The people wearing it against their will could always complain to the police, even still that's like saying lets ban all hats because someone might be wearing it against their will.

Doesn't matter about culture, someone could be wearing a hat against their will regardless of culture, people need to look at both sides of the coin here, this is a custom of muslims, but since you consider it barbaric/oppressive w/e you are all in for a ban without looking at their point of view. So basically they are oppressing 1 group to further the freedom of another? ... in doing so you have basically gone back to square one, and I honestly don't see the logic in that, unless it boils down to we don't like islam.... yada yada yada.