"France moves closer to banning full Muslim veil"

No, I am comparing bank robbers to men who abuse and oppress women.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="TheAbbeFaria"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] How am I being naive? It is designed to restrict your movements - it is designed to eliminate your peripheral vision. These things aren't just coincidences. -Sun_Tzu-

Um no, it was first designed as a sand-mask to prevent facial damage from the harsh, arid conditions of the desert. It is still commonly worn by women as well as men today.

You said simply that it was designed to restrict your movement and eliminate your peripheral vision, without explaining why it is so. Because of this, it is likely that someone may derive a false implication that it is a garment designed for the express purpose of restricting women, when that is not true as I've detailed. It is worn by the Tuareg of Algeria, to the people of Afghanistan, to the woman of France.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

The people wearing it against their will could always complain to the police, even still that's like saying lets ban all hats because someone might be wearing it against their will.

TheAbbeFaria

In a modern democratic nation, it is inherently unlawful for any individual to force another individual to wear something or do something they do not agree with. Instead of banning an article of clothing that is arguably not oppressive at all, why not make it easier and safer for woman, oppressed by their husbands, to receive help. I do not know what is so difficult about going to an agency, telling them that you're in an oppressive marriage, and that you desire a safe way of getting out of it.

And sure, we as a society should do everything in our power to stop abuse and oppression, and to encourage the oppressed and the abused to come out and tell the proper authorities that their rights are being violated, and it is in my opinion that this is one of those things that we should do to help these women.

we can sum this thread up nicely by saying: Fighting oppression.. by creating more oppression. an ideal concept if I ever heard one.EMOEVOLUTION

This pretty much, I should have kept my statement as short as this but I like to type..

[QUOTE="EMOEVOLUTION"]we can sum this thread up nicely by saying: Fighting oppression.. by creating more oppression. an ideal concept if I ever heard one.Espada12

This pretty much, I should have kept mine statement as short as this but I like to type..

So in other words, it is inherently unlawful to make things illegal?

And sure, we as a society should do everything in our power to stop abuse and oppression, and to encourage the oppressed and the abused to come out and tell the proper authorities that their rights are being violated, and it is in my opinion that this is one of those things that we should do to help these women.

-Sun_Tzu-

It is inherently unlawful to force women to wear a burqa, which was my point, and I presume is yours as well. ;) Furthermore, it is not necessary for the burka to be banned when proper measures could be taken to make it easier and safer for a woman to leave an oppressive marriage, in which she is forced against her will to wear this clothing.

Banning the burka will restrict those who want to wear it. If it is those who are forced to wear it that we care about, banning the burka is not necessary.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]No, I am comparing bank robbers to men who abuse and oppress women.Hewkii

Not to mention what's to stop them from the men forcing women to wear them in their own homes?

Last time I checked, there isn't really a big problem concerning harsh, arid conditions in France, or any other European country. And where are all these burqa-wearing men in France, or in Denmark, or in the UK, who wear this garment every time they leave the house? They don't seem to exist.-Sun_Tzu-

We're talking about the Middle East. 25 degrees is winter. 40-50 with occasional sandstorms, where it rains like 10 times a year. These are the conditions we're talking about.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

The people wearing it against their will could always complain to the police, even still that's like saying lets ban all hats because someone might be wearing it against their will.

Espada12

Doesn't matter about culture, someone could be wearing a hat against their will regardless of culture, people need to look at both sides of the coin here, this is a custom of muslims, but since you consider it barbaric/oppressive w/e you are all in for a ban without looking at their point of view. So basically they are oppressing 1 group to further the freedom of another? ... in doing so you have basically gone back to square one, and I honestly don't see the logic in that, unless it boils down to we don't like islam.... yada yada yada.

As for me "seeing the other side of the coin", I have actually looked at the other point of view. I have read articles by Islamic women defending the burqa, Islamic women supporting a ban on the burqa, civil libertarians opposing this ban, feminists opposing this ban, as well as feminists supporting this ban. I have not arrived at this position without looking at other points of view.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]No, I am comparing bank robbers to men who abuse and oppress women.tycoonmike

Not to mention what's to stop them from the men forcing women to wear them in their own homes?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Last time I checked, there isn't really a big problem concerning harsh, arid conditions in France, or any other European country. And where are all these burqa-wearing men in France, or in Denmark, or in the UK, who wear this garment every time they leave the house? They don't seem to exist.Famiking

We're talking about the Middle East. 25 degrees is winter. 40-50 with occasional sandstorms, where it rains like 10 times a year. These are the conditions we're talking about.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]No, I am comparing bank robbers to men who abuse and oppress women.tycoonmike

Not to mention what's to stop them from the men forcing women to wear them in their own homes?

Banning women who would otherwise voluntarily choose to wear a burqa, while it is indeed restricting their freedom, is hardly oppressive. I can't drive on the wrong side of the road, no can I falsely shout "fire" in a crowded movie theater. Am I being oppressed? Obviously not; restrictions are being placed on my freedoms to ensure that I do not put other people in harms way.

As for me "seeing the other side of the coin", I have actually looked at the other point of view. I have read articles by Islamic women defending the burqa, Islamic women supporting a ban on the burqa, civil libertarians opposing this ban, feminists opposing this ban, as well as feminists supporting this ban. I have not arrived at this position without looking at other points of view.

-Sun_Tzu-

Driving on the wrong side of the road and shouting fire in a crowded movie theater causes accidents as well as chaos, while choosing to wear a burqa does neither. Being forced to wear a burqa is, however, a different issue, that is still not comparable to driving on the wrong side of the road and shouting fire in a movie theatre, but which goes against the rudimentary foundations of a modern democratic nation.

one reason for that is that it is believed that men cannot control themselves, and if they saw a "unwrapped" female, they would go on to rape them.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Famiking"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Last time I checked, there isn't really a big problem concerning harsh, arid conditions in France, or any other European country. And where are all these burqa-wearing men in France, or in Denmark, or in the UK, who wear this garment every time they leave the house? They don't seem to exist.-Sun_Tzu-

We're talking about the Middle East. 25 degrees is winter. 40-50 with occasional sandstorms, where it rains like 10 times a year. These are the conditions we're talking about.

Perhaps to support the cultural heritage they identify with? There are many who choose to wear a burqa of their own volition.

I must add that it is not unusual to wear garments that don't match the climate or weather. It's winter where I live, and I go out in a jacket, t-shirt, and jeans, and it's freezing here. In the summer, I can be seen in sweats.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="TheAbbeFaria"]

Um no, it was first designed as a sand-mask to prevent facial damage from the harsh, arid conditions of the desert. It is still commonly worn by women as well as men today.

TheAbbeFaria

You said simply that it was designed to restrict your movement and eliminate your peripheral vision, without explaining why it is so. Because of this, it is likely that someone may derive a false implication that it is a garment designed for the express purpose of restricting women, when that is not true as I've detailed. It is worn by the Tuareg of Algeria, to the people of Afghanistan, to the woman of France.

[QUOTE="TheAbbeFaria"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Last time I checked, there isn't really a big problem concerning harsh, arid conditions in France, or any other European country. And where are all these burqa-wearing men in France, or in Denmark, or in the UK, who wear this garment every time they leave the house? They don't seem to exist.-Sun_Tzu-

You said simply that it was designed to restrict your movement and eliminate your peripheral vision, without explaining why it is so. Because of this, it is likely that someone may derive a false implication that it is a garment designed for the express purpose of restricting women, when that is not true as I've detailed. It is worn by the Tuareg of Algeria, to the people of Afghanistan, to the woman of France.

Because it is used by some husbands to restrict their wives, it doesn't mean it was designed for that purpose.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Banning women who would otherwise voluntarily choose to wear a burqa, while it is indeed restricting their freedom, is hardly oppressive. I can't drive on the wrong side of the road, no can I falsely shout "fire" in a crowded movie theater. Am I being oppressed? Obviously not; restrictions are being placed on my freedoms to ensure that I do not put other people in harms way.

As for me "seeing the other side of the coin", I have actually looked at the other point of view. I have read articles by Islamic women defending the burqa, Islamic women supporting a ban on the burqa, civil libertarians opposing this ban, feminists opposing this ban, as well as feminists supporting this ban. I have not arrived at this position without looking at other points of view.

TheAbbeFaria

Driving on the wrong side of the road and shouting fire in a crowded movie theater causes accidents as well as chaos, while choosing to wear a burqa does neither. Being forced to wear a burqa is, however, a different issue, that is still not comparable to driving on the wrong side of the road and shouting fire in a movie theatre, but which goes against the rudimentary foundations of a modern democratic nation.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] In what culture is there a significant problem regarding coerced hat wearing? To my knowledge, no culture exists. But if a culture were to exist, then I think that a ban on hats should be seriously considered, as this ban should be seriously considered. -Sun_Tzu-

Doesn't matter about culture, someone could be wearing a hat against their will regardless of culture, people need to look at both sides of the coin here, this is a custom of muslims, but since you consider it barbaric/oppressive w/e you are all in for a ban without looking at their point of view. So basically they are oppressing 1 group to further the freedom of another? ... in doing so you have basically gone back to square one, and I honestly don't see the logic in that, unless it boils down to we don't like islam.... yada yada yada.

As for me "seeing the other side of the coin", I have actually looked at the other point of view. I have read articles by Islamic women defending the burqa, Islamic women supporting a ban on the burqa, civil libertarians opposing this ban, feminists opposing this ban, as well as feminists supporting this ban. I have not arrived at this position without looking at other points of view.

The problem being, according to your logic, the majority of French women who wear the Burqa are being forced to by either a husband or a father. You have made the argument this entire time that it will help to distinguish between those women who are being abused by their husbands or fathers and those who aren't. You haven't once addressed the counter-argument that they will just continue to be abused if you ban it or not. You haven't seen the other side of the coin because you refuse to accept the fact that the few women who wear the burqa and are abused (and I've yet to see you provide evidence for the majority of French women who wear the burqa which, by the burden of proof argument (thought I'd get it out of the way now) you are required to provide) will still be just as badly abused at home.

Simply banning the burqa won't make domestic abuse disappear any more than banning skimasks in banks make bank robberies disappear. People still rob banks and use some method to cover their faces, just as the few men who do force their wives and daughters will find ways around this ban. The difference between the examples you've given is that doing both causes direct harm to someone. If I drive on the wrong side of the road I will crash into someone and injure or potentially kill myself and the other driver. If I falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theater people, potentially myself, will get trampled in the ensuing melee. The women who wear the burqa, excluding the few who are forced to do so by their husbands, don't generally cause harm to others.

It's the same thing with people who wear their pants around their knees. I don't want to see their underwear, but like it or not it isn't causing me or anyone else harm thus there is no reason for it to be banned. Simply because something is associated with a greater sociological evil doesn't mean that the thing in and of itself is wrong. Indeed, by your reasoning, one could argue that it's wrong to buy a Mercedes-Benz because of how they produced military hardware for Nazi Germany. It's nothing more than a modified version of reductio ad Hitlerum.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="Hewkii"] because banning a piece of clothing worn by women stop these men at all.-Sun_Tzu-

Not to mention what's to stop them from the men forcing women to wear them in their own homes?

OK, and how does banning the burqa in public stop men from abusing women at home? Indeed, I would think that since women no longer are able to "shield" themselves from other men the abusers would resort to even worse tactics of abuse.

Choosing to wear a burqa makes it much harder to distinguish between a free woman who has that choice and an oppressed woman who doesn't. It makes those who have that choice complicit in that oppression.-Sun_Tzu-

Choosing to wear a burqa makes it much harder to distinguish between a free woman who has that choice and an oppressed woman who doesn't.-Sun_Tzu-

Which is why better measures should be created to make it easier and safer for oppressed women to receive help. I can't think of any reason why it is important to know who it is oppressed and who isn't based upon their wearing of the burqa, unless it is important that we actively search for those who are oppressed by the burqa, and that seems a bit silly as well as counter-productive. It would be much easier to make it easier for these woman who need help to receive it.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Doesn't matter about culture, someone could be wearing a hat against their will regardless of culture, people need to look at both sides of the coin here, this is a custom of muslims, but since you consider it barbaric/oppressive w/e you are all in for a ban without looking at their point of view. So basically they are oppressing 1 group to further the freedom of another? ... in doing so you have basically gone back to square one, and I honestly don't see the logic in that, unless it boils down to we don't like islam.... yada yada yada.

tycoonmike

As for me "seeing the other side of the coin", I have actually looked at the other point of view. I have read articles by Islamic women defending the burqa, Islamic women supporting a ban on the burqa, civil libertarians opposing this ban, feminists opposing this ban, as well as feminists supporting this ban. I have not arrived at this position without looking at other points of view.

The problem being, according to your logic, the majority of French women who wear the Burqa are being forced to by either a husband or a father. You have made the argument this entire time that it will help to distinguish between those women who are being abused by their husbands or fathers and those who aren't. You haven't once addressed the counter-argument that they will just continue to be abused if you ban it or not. You haven't seen the other side of the coin because you refuse to accept the fact that the few women who wear the burqa and are abused (and I've yet to see you provide evidence for the majority of French women who wear the burqa which, by the burden of proof argument (thought I'd get it out of the way now) you are required to provide) will still be just as badly abused at home.

Simply banning the burqa won't make domestic abuse disappear any more than banning skimasks in banks make bank robberies disappear. People still rob banks and use some method to cover their faces, just as the few men who do force their wives and daughters will find ways around this ban. The difference between the examples you've given is that doing both causes direct harm to someone. If I drive on the wrong side of the road I will crash into someone and injure or potentially kill myself and the other driver. If I falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theater people, potentially myself, will get trampled in the ensuing melee. The women who wear the burqa, excluding the few who are forced to do so by their husbands, don't generally cause harm to others.

It's the same thing with people who wear their pants around their knees. I don't want to see their underwear, but like it or not it isn't causing me harm thus there is no reason for it to be banned. Simply because something is associated with a greater sociological evil doesn't mean that the thing in and of itself is wrong. Indeed, by your reasoning, one could argue that it's wrong to buy a Mercedes-Benz because of how they produced military hardware for Nazi Germany. It's nothing more than a modified version of reductio ad Hitlerum.

No, I have not once said that a majority of French women who wear the Burqa are being forced to wear it. It's impossible to say how many in the Islamic community are being forced to wear the burqa, for reasons that I have already given. However, my argument is not contingent on there being a majority of women who are being forced to wear the burqa. The women who do choose to wear the burqa do pose a threat to these oppressed women - I'll grant you that it's not a direct threat, but it is a threat nonetheless.

Moreover, I have addressed the counter-argument that they will continue to be abused after a ban on the burqa a number of times. Yes there are still going to be women who are going to be oppressed and abused - but they would not be able to be forced to wear a burqa, and that's a start.

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

-Sun_Tzu-

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

Hewkii

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

-Sun_Tzu-

If there are some in the Islamic community that are prepared to resort to violence over this, we shouldn't be intimated by that. We shouldn't just tolerate their intolerance just because that might upset some people in the Islamic community. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]If there are some in the Islamic community that are prepared to resort to violence over this, we shouldn't be intimated by that. We shouldn't just tolerate their intolerance just because that might upset some people in the Islamic community. Hewkii

I also believe that this is an act of oppression against the Muslim culture. I don't know that I have much evidence to convince anyone else of my conviction, but it looks like this is the case, not just in France but in all the industrialized nations. Just like the Native Americans and the African-Americans, the Arab world, now in the shattered state it is in, is being taken advantage of and systematically destroyed by the Western powers under the guise of terrorism and freedom.

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

No, I have not once said that a majority of French women who wear the Burqa are being forced to wear it. It's impossible to say how many in the Islamic community are being forced to wear the burqa, for reasons that I have already given. However, my argument is not contingent on there being a majority of women who are being forced to wear the burqa. The women who do choose to wear the burqa do pose a threat to these oppressed women - I'll grant you that it's not a direct threat, but it is a threat nonetheless.

Moreover, I have addressed the counter-argument that they will continue to be abused after a ban on the burqa a number of times. Yes there are still going to be women who are going to be oppressed and abused - but they would not be able to be forced to wear a burqa, and that's a start.

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

-Sun_Tzu-

Ok, perhaps not "majority" but a "significant portion" of French women who wear the Burqa:

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.-Sun_Tzu-

Page Three, Tenth Post, in the ten post per page setup. And yes, your arugment is entirely contingent on there being a significant portion, otherwise known as a majority, of women being forced to wear the burqa. If there was a significant portion (something I'm not convinced on since you haven't yet provided evidence for it, just conjecture) of women being forced to wear it, then the French police would have a better time going after their husbands for abusing their wives rather than going after their wives for doing what they feel will protect them somewhat from their husbands. By denying them this, you deny their husbands the reasoning to not torture or even kill, if not their wives then the peopel who thought looked at their wives, because they thought that another man was looking at them cross-eyed.

So it's a start that women who are forced to wear a burqa to protect them from the prying eyes of other men be beaten worse because they don't wear it?

There isn't a huge upside! This ban is denying the women who would wear it of their own volition the right to practice their religion without state interference. The Declaration of the Rights of Man still hold constitutional significance in the French Fifth Republic, much like the American Bill of Rights:

No one shall be disquieted on account of his opinions, including his religious views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law.Declaration of the Rights of Man

Wearing the Burqa, in and of itself, holds a religious siginficance and does not disturb the public order and thus the ban should be considered against the French constitution. By banning the burqa you open the floodgates of religious persecution because the next article that had a legitimate religious purpose and is believed to be demeaning to the person who wears it will be banned using the burqa ban as justification.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]If there are some in the Islamic community that are prepared to resort to violence over this, we shouldn't be intimated by that. We shouldn't just tolerate their intolerance just because that might upset some people in the Islamic community. Hewkii

However, a lot of these immigrants are bringing with them a lot of the sexism and bigotry that is commonly found in these Middle Eastern countries that they are coming from, and it is ultimately up to the leaders of the Islamic community in Europe to urge their brothers and sisters to abandon that bigotry and publicly denounce it, otherwise they will indeed face alienation. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]However, a lot of these immigrants are bringing with them a lot of the sexism and bigotry that is commonly found in these Middle Eastern countries that they are coming from, and it is ultimately up to the leaders of the Islamic community in Europe to urge their brothers and sisters to abandon that bigotry and publicly denounce it, otherwise they will indeed face alienation. Hewkii

I know, and I am very committed to denouncing that bigotry and xenophobia - I've done so in this very thread. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

No, I have not once said that a majority of French women who wear the Burqa are being forced to wear it. It's impossible to say how many in the Islamic community are being forced to wear the burqa, for reasons that I have already given. However, my argument is not contingent on there being a majority of women who are being forced to wear the burqa. The women who do choose to wear the burqa do pose a threat to these oppressed women - I'll grant you that it's not a direct threat, but it is a threat nonetheless.

Moreover, I have addressed the counter-argument that they will continue to be abused after a ban on the burqa a number of times. Yes there are still going to be women who are going to be oppressed and abused - but they would not be able to be forced to wear a burqa, and that's a start.

And let me say this - if this ban is put into place and it does not work and it makes the situation worse, I'll change my position in a heart beat, and advocate for a repeal on the ban. But there's never been a ban on the burqa of this magnitude, we don't really know what negatives could emerge, but the upside is huge, huge enough that I think that this policy should be implemented .

tycoonmike

Ok, perhaps not "majority" but a "significant portion" of French women who wear the Burqa:

I don't know if some Muslim women actually want to wear a burqa - some probably do, but there are certainly a significant number of women in France who are being forced to wear this oppressive, humiliating garment. Now whether or not this justifies an outright ban on the burqa; it's not the perfect policy, but I think it's a policy that is good enough. There is no other realistic way to identify which women are being forced to wear burqas and which are not.-Sun_Tzu-

Page Three, Tenth Post, in the ten post per page setup. And yes, your arugment is entirely contingent on there being a significant portion, otherwise known as a majority, of women being forced to wear the burqa. If there was a significant portion (something I'm not convinced on since you haven't yet provided evidence for it, just conjecture) of women being forced to wear it, then the French police would have a better time going after their husbands for abusing their wives rather than going after their wives for doing what they feel will protect them somewhat from their husbands. By denying them this, you deny their husbands the reasoning to not torture or even kill, if not their wives then the peopel who thought looked at their wives, because they thought that another man was looking at them cross-eyed.

So it's a start that women who are forced to wear a burqa to protect them from the prying eyes of other men be beaten worse because they don't wear it?

There isn't a huge upside! This ban is denying the women who would wear it of their own volition the right to practice their religion without state interference. The Declaration of the Rights of Man still hold constitutional significance in the French Fifth Republic, much like the American Bill of Rights:

No one shall be disquieted on account of his opinions, including his religious views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law.Declaration of the Rights of Man

Wearing the Burqa, in and of itself, holds a religious siginficance and does not disturb the public order and thus the ban should be considered against the French constitution. By banning the burqa you open the floodgates of religious persecution because the next article that had a legitimate religious purpose and is believed to be demeaning to the person who wears it will be banned using the burqa ban as justification.

The burqa holds no religious significance. Nowhere in the Koran is the burqa mentioned - Allah does not command women to wear the burqa. But let's assume that it did hold religious significance, that still does not justify the status quo - it does disturb the public order established by the law, because it prevents the government from identifying men who are forcing women to wear the burqa, which is illegal - thus disturbing the public order that has been established by the law.

Moreover, a significant portion isn't synonymous with a majority, and based on the substantial amount of anecdotal evidence provided by some who are a part of, or were at least once part of the Islamic community, likeAyaan Hirsi Ali andMona Eltahawy, it is reasonable to assume that a significant portion of the Islamic community in Europe is being coerced to wear the burqa.

it prevents the government from identifying men who are forcing women to wear the burqa, which is illegal.-Sun_Tzu-

About time... Kudos to France for this!

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I know, and I am very committed to denouncing that bigotry and xenophobia - I've done so in this very thread. Hewkii

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] it prevents the government from identifying men who are forcing women to wear the burqa, which is illegal.Hewkii

That just proves that the law, as of now, is ineffective.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]That just proves that the law, as of now, is ineffective.Hewkii