"France moves closer to banning full Muslim veil"

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]How am I being naive? It is designed to restrict your movements - it is designed to eliminate your peripheral vision. These things aren't just coincidences. Hewkii

So just because they believe that their god commands them to wear this thing (even though there is no commandment in the Koran that requires women to wear the burqa), that means that it is therefore somehow justified?-Sun_Tzu-

God commands a lot of things in both the Bible and the Koran that are illegal. Are those laws oppressive?-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Neither do I, but that is your rationale. To "preserve French culture" - in other words, to ban that which is not French.

PannicAtack

Are you trying to imply that I'm some kind of racist? It might surprise you to learn that there are things in this life that are worth preserving, and your nation's traditions, and values are among those things... but don't take my word for it - contact your own government and ask them if they feel that preserving your country's cultural identity is important to them...

Well, I never said that this policy would act as a silver bullet that would solve most or all of the problems oppressed Muslim women face, but it would solve this particular problem regarding the burqa. And it is designed for modesty, but not just for modesty. Men are required in Islam to dress modestly as well, but you don't see men walking around in burqas, or anything comparable to a burqa. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="67gt500"] I said that the only culture the French government should be concerned about is French culture... how could anyone in their right mind deny a Nation its sovereign right to preserve its own traditions and culture? Perpetuating and preserving a country's values and traditions is one of its fundamental rights as a soverign nation. How they go about doing that could be debatable, but their right to do it is not...67gt500

Are you trying to imply that I'm some kind of racist? It might surprise you to learn that there are things in this life that are worth preserving, and your nation's traditions, and values are among those things... but don't take my word for it - contact your own government and ask them if they feel that preserving your country's cultural identity is important to them...

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="67gt500"] I said that the only culture the French government should be concerned about is French culture... how could anyone in their right mind deny a Nation its sovereign right to preserve its own traditions and culture? Perpetuating and preserving a country's values and traditions is one of its fundamental rights as a soverign nation. How they go about doing that could be debatable, but their right to do it is not...67gt500

Are you trying to imply that I'm some kind of racist? It might surprise you to learn that there are things in this life that are worth preserving, and your nation's traditions, and values are among those things... but don't take my word for it - contact your own government and ask them if they feel that preserving your country's cultural identity is important to them...

Preserving your country's identity is important, but not at the expense of taking away from other cultures.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Well, I never said that this policy would act as a silver bullet that would solve most or all of the problems oppressed Muslim women face, but it would solve this particular problem regarding the burqa. And it is designed for modesty, but not just for modesty. Men are required in Islam to dress modestly as well, but you don't see men walking around in burqas, or anything comparable to a burqa. Hewkii

pretty sure there's no desert in France... but I haven't been there so I could be mistaken...67gt500

[QUOTE="67gt500"]pretty sure there's no desert in France... but I haven't been there so I could be mistaken...Hewkii

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="Hewkii"] I'd say forcing people to disregard what they believe to be a command from the Almighty is just a tad oppressive, especially if your country has a habit of ignoring other cultures.PannicAtack

By that logic, though, the French government should ignore them if they start killing people of different faiths and they justify it as a command from the Almighty to make war against the infidel.

well, obviously. I mean, wearing a certain clothing and killing people are ideologically identical, after all.

Hewkii

The justification is the same, however. You will find it in bold above. It is believed by Muslims that wearing a Burqa is a command from Allah. It is written in the Qur'an for Muslims to make war against the infidel. The Qur'an is believed to be the commands of Allah to the Muslim people specifically and the followers of the other two major Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism. Are we really going to cherry-pick what the Qur'an has to say about things such as this?

I'm pretty sure you're right...67gt500

[QUOTE="67gt500"]I'm pretty sure you're right...Hewkii

It is written in the Qur'an for Muslims to make war against the infidel. tycoonmike

[QUOTE="67gt500"]I'm pretty sure you're right...Hewkii

'everyone' isn't... 67gt500

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"] It is written in the Qur'an for Muslims to make war against the infidel. Hewkii

That certainly hasn't stopped Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and all the other Muslim perverters out there.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="67gt500"]I'm pretty sure you're right...PannicAtack

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Hewkii"] so why is everyone Christian? they must be cultural imperialists or something.67gt500

Good. Women shouldn't be forced to cover their faces.Head_of_games

i think the issue here is women being forced to not cover their faces...

That certainly hasn't stopped Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and all the other Muslim perverters out there.

tycoonmike

[QUOTE="67gt500"]'everyone' isn't... Hewkii

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

That certainly hasn't stopped Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and all the other Muslim perverters out there.

Hewkii

Who said I was for the ban? Maybe you should read my posts from before our conversation? I just don't see the validity in the justification of "well it's in the Qur'an, so..."

Not dodging anything, I was just sayin' not 'everyone' is Christian... only about 15% of the world's population presently holds those beliefs.67gt500

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"] By the way, am I betraying American culture if I listen to European composers instead of American rock bands?PannicAtack

Who said I was for the ban? Maybe you should read my posts from before our conversation? I just don't see the validity in the justification of "well it's in the Qur'an, so..."

tycoonmike

well, yes, that's sort of the whole reason why things like the First Amendment were thought up, so you could wear odd clothes or waste half your Sunday and no one could bug you about it. and again, this applies to women who voluntarily wear it. abused women would be abused no matter the cultural setting. Hewkii

I don't accept this sort of nihilism regarding the oppression of women. I've said it a number of times and I'll say it again, just because this policy does not address all the problems regarding abuse and oppression that are facing women, that does not justify allowing this particular type of oppression to go on.

technically yes, but culturally our law system is based on similar laws as the Bible and Quran (ie no killing, stealing, adultery, etc), so there isn't a terrible amount of discrepancy. of course, there is the odd law that shows up in ancient books, but cultures tend to ignore those as time goes on.Hewkii

Actually I'd say that there is a lot of discrepancy, but that's its own topic. And what happens when cultures do not ignore "odd laws"? Just look at the gay marriage debate in the U.S. Being against gay marriage is a position held by many in the mainstream Christian community. A lot of these people feel that we cannot allow gays to get married because that would go against the word of God. And then there's the intelligent design movement, where you have these parents preventing their children from learning science because their holy book says that God created the earth in six days. Also, as I've already said, there is not a single passage in the Koran that requires women to wear the burqa.

And when communities abandon their archaic laws and dogma, they often do not do this unanimously. That's why fundamentalists exist.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Who said I was for the ban? Maybe you should read my posts from before our conversation? I just don't see the validity in the justification of "well it's in the Qur'an, so..."

Hewkii

Then you should have said that instead of "they believe it to be a command from God."

[QUOTE="_7h0m_"]nice! a history n00b. you might consider the fact that the usa lost a dump load of wars in the recent years... as a whole france has a far superior success rate than the us at winning conflicts.... but i guess you'll quote me and add that idiotic google glitch remark.Omni-Slash

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Well, I never said that this policy would act as a silver bullet that would solve most or all of the problems oppressed Muslim women face, but it would solve this particular problem regarding the burqa. And it is designed for modesty, but not just for modesty. Men are required in Islam to dress modestly as well, but you don't see men walking around in burqas, or anything comparable to a burqa. Hewkii

Being against gay marriage is a position held by many in the mainstream Christian community. A lot of these people feel that we cannot allow gays to get married because that would go against the word of God.

-Sun_Tzu-

I don't accept this sort of nihilism regarding the oppression of women. I've said it a number of times and I'll say it again, just because this policy does not address all the problems regarding abuse and oppression that are facing women, that does not justify allowing this particular type of oppression to go on.

-Sun_Tzu-

And what happens when cultures do not ignore "odd laws"? Just look at the gay marriage, ID] debate. Also, as I've already said, there is not a single passage in the Koran that requires women to wear the burqa.

And when communities abandon their archaic laws and dogma, they often do not do this unanimously. That's why fundamentalists exist.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="67gt500"] Absolutely, but America was founded by Europeans and European traditions so maybe you've found yourself a loop-hole there...67gt500

Good to hear. It's for their own good too. I know I'd certainly be more receptive to talking to someone's face. It's not like we talk to people through the letter box instead of answering the door. That's just plain rude.SolidSnake35

[QUOTE="67gt500"]

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"] This is the mindset behind things like the KKK and the BNP.PannicAtack

Are you trying to imply that I'm some kind of racist? It might surprise you to learn that there are things in this life that are worth preserving, and your nation's traditions, and values are among those things... but don't take my word for it - contact your own government and ask them if they feel that preserving your country's cultural identity is important to them...

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"] Are you American?PannicAtack

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Good to hear. It's for their own good too. I know I'd certainly be more receptive to talking to someone's face. It's not like we talk to people through the letter box instead of answering the door. That's just plain rude.PannicAtack

except again, it's not oppressive, because it's entirely voluntary for a large segment of those involved.Hewkii

But it is also entirely involuntary for a large segment of those involved - there are a lot of women who are wearing it against their will. I am holding the position that even if a ban was oppressive - forcing women to not wear it is a whole lot less oppressive than forcing women to wear it.

the views of those against gay marriage and intelligent design are reprehensible, yes, but are not worth banning things over. in fact, Gay Marriage is actually a perfect parallel, as like the burqa, those involved are (usually) consensual in the act and allowing it does not harm those opposed to it at all. and while you're right that the burqa specifically is (probably, I haven't read the Qu'ran) not required, it's more of a cultural relic that serves the purpose of 'modesty' in Islam (check out the Berber I posted a couple pages pack for a guy who is dressed head to toe too).Hewkii

But allowing it does harm those that are opposed to it and yet they are being forced to wear it.

And the picture of the Berber you posted doesn't have his entire face covered, you can still see his entire face, and he doesn't have to see out of a tiny slit. There is no male garment that is equivalent to the burqa.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Good to hear. It's for their own good too. I know I'd certainly be more receptive to talking to someone's face. It's not like we talk to people through the letter box instead of answering the door. That's just plain rude.SolidSnake35

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] But there is no reason why the burqa eliminates one's peripheral vision and deprives one of their identity. There is no male equivalent to that. It is exclusively worn by women, and that's no accident.Hewkii

Sorry. You win.PannicAtack

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="67gt500"] I'm Canadian... same (fundamental) values, different flag... So, North American if you will...67gt500

Then why is it that men do not wear anything that resembles a burqa? I seriously doubt that it's because men enjoy having sand in their face.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Hewkii"]except again, it's not oppressive, because it's entirely voluntary for a large segment of those involved.-Sun_Tzu-

But it is also entirely involuntary for a large segment of those involved - there are a lot of women who are wearing it against their will. I am holding the position that even if a ban was oppressive - forcing women to not wear it is a whole lot less oppressive than forcing women to wear it.

So if, by the same logic, the French were to enact a law saying men couldn't have beards longer than five centimeters it wouldn't be oppresive but would rather be good for hygenic purposes?

And besides, where are your figures saying that a majority of Muslim women in France are forced to wear a Burqa?

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"] Okay. Tell me honestly if you recognize these names DW Griffith Mack Sennett Frank Capra Samuel Barber Gian-Carlo Menotti Aaron Copland Richard Rogers Oscar Hammerstein II Jerome Kern Stephen Sondheim Leonard BernsteinPannicAtack

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] That's obviously not the point I am trying to make. It's illegal to wear a ski mask in a bank because it makes it much easier to identify a bank robber. Apply that logic in this case - by making it illegal to wear the burqa, it becomes much easier to identify the women who are being oppressed. -Sun_Tzu-

Again, I don't think that this the perfect policy, but it is the best policy available, and I think that it would be better than the status quo.