Religious Question (uh oh)

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Easy answers aren't necessarily wrong answers.

Theokhoth

That does not suggest that it is wrong. "Adequacy" is subjective; no answer will be adequate. "Convenience" is irrelevant to truth.

Anyway, I guess at this point it seems I am over-analyzing, so I'll stop.

[QUOTE="Rocky32189"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Easy answers aren't necessarily wrong answers.

Theokhoth

God is not required to do anything? By definition of Omnipotence, that is a true statement.

I highly doubt you have proof that God doesn't care, that people born into other cultures go to Hell, or anything else you've said.

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

This all an appeal to emotion. Your argument hinges entirely on the premise that death is a bad thing, and yet you don't even think about it: what makes death bad?

All you're doing is repeating soundbites that have been going on forever as if it's something groundbreaking.

Theokhoth

Every human suffers at some point in their lives. Some do suffer more than others. The same question is aksed: what makes suffering bad?

I created a gun.

That gun was used by somebody else to commit a crime.

Should I be punished?

Theokhoth

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]In this case it is. At best its inadequate and totally convenient.

Teenaged

That does not suggest that it is wrong. "Adequacy" is subjective; no answer will be adequate. "Convenience" is irrelevant to truth.

Anyway, I guess at this point it seems I am over-analyzing, so I'll stop.

They are not "I will say this and nothing more" posts. They are "I will say this and nothing more needs be said" posts. How they appear, how they are accepted, whether or not they're cliche'; none of that matters.

Because there is not one

[QUOTE="Famiking"]So you're trying to say God created poverty or what? Poverty is only a human creation. "Poverty" in the sense only exists amongst humans.

foxhound_fox

Do you believe god made houses? Do you think he is the cause for houses? If not, why can't the same be said for poverty?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]I created a gun.

That gun was used by somebody else to commit a crime.

Should I be punished?

foxhound_fox

I created a gun and I created a cure for AIDs.

I know nothing about using a gun, but I know everything there is to know about medicine.

The gun is used to kill somebody.

The AIDs cure cures AIDs.

What now?

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

God isn't required to do anything you say He should do.

Theokhoth

True, but if "He" doesn't it proves that he really just doesn't care.

This all an appeal to emotion. Your argument hinges entirely on the premise that death is a bad thing, and yet you don't even think about it: what makes death bad?

All you're doing is repeating soundbites that have been going on forever as if it's something groundbreaking.

If death wasn't a bad thing, God wouldn't have given us life. Death is bad because your taking a loved one away from a parent or vise-versa. It is an appeal to emotion, but a genuine one it is. If God did truly care about the lives of children, he should've done something about it.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

[QUOTE="Famiking"]So you're trying to say God created poverty or what? Poverty is only a human creation. "Poverty" in the sense only exists amongst humans.

Theokhoth

I created a gun.

That gun was used by somebody else to commit a crime.

Should I be punished?

If there is an all-powerful God in heaven, why is it not in his power to help out with the big world problems? World hunger being one big one. It seems extremely illogical for an all-powerful being who created the universe to not be able to instantly feed starving people. This is one of the many reasons I say there is no "God" in a religious sense.

1) Don't tell me that starving people "deserve" this, because they don't (I've often been given that as a response, or an excuse, to this question).

Astrapsody

Just out of curiousity, why do you assume it is illogical for an all-powerful being to not feed everybody on Earth?

Because there is not one

Epic__Lulz

You might be convinced otherwise.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] death may not be considered bad, but what do you say about suffering? the people that are starving are also suffering.curtkobain

Every human suffers at some point in their lives. Some do suffer more than others. The same question is aksed: what makes suffering bad?

We try to avoid a lot of good things. Kids often try to avoid schoolwork, for example. We also often flock to a lot of bad things.

A person born into slavery. What if the person never has an idea of freedom?

Because there is not one

Epic__Lulz

*ding ding*

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

That does not suggest that it is wrong. "Adequacy" is subjective; no answer will be adequate. "Convenience" is irrelevant to truth.

Theokhoth

Anyway, I guess at this point it seems I am over-analyzing, so I'll stop.

They are not "I will say this and nothing more" posts. They are "I will say this and nothing more needs be said" posts. How they appear, how they are accepted, whether or not they're cliche'; none of that matters.

i created a drug that stops cancer. i saved the human race. should i become your God?

curtkobain

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

Grodus5

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

True, but if "He" doesn't it proves that he really just doesn't care.

Astrapsody

This all an appeal to emotion. Your argument hinges entirely on the premise that death is a bad thing, and yet you don't even think about it: what makes death bad?

All you're doing is repeating soundbites that have been going on forever as if it's something groundbreaking.

If death wasn't a bad thing, God wouldn't have given us life.

So the only way you can comprehend the "badness" of death is by the comparative "goodness" of life; do I have this correctly?

I created a gun and I created a cure for AIDs.

I know nothing about using a gun, but I know everything there is to know about medicine.

The gun is used to kill somebody.

The AIDs cure cures AIDs.

What now?Theokhoth

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] i created a drug that stops cancer. i saved the human race. should i become your God?

Famiking

Because God can do whatever the hell He feels like doing?

[QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

WhiteSnake5000

In the bible, it mentions that all humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve. Therefore, we make problems similar to the problem they made in the garden every single day. God has the same view with us, in that case

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Every human suffers at some point in their lives. Some do suffer more than others. The same question is aksed: what makes suffering bad?

Theokhoth

We try to avoid a lot of good things. Kids often try to avoid schoolwork, for example. We also often flock to a lot of bad things.

A person born into slavery. What if the person never has an idea of freedom?

If youshowed me one person who was a slave, who never had the thought of being free, I would call that person troubled. Besides, no one should be a slave, whether they think about leaving or not. Same goes for starvation. No one should have to starve, whether they think about having a surplus of food or not.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]I created a gun and I created a cure for AIDs.

I know nothing about using a gun, but I know everything there is to know about medicine.

The gun is used to kill somebody.

The AIDs cure cures AIDs.

What now?foxhound_fox

Love and murder are concepts. God didn't create those any more than He created the concept of a triangle.

The acts of loving and killing are not performed by God but by humans, that God created.

[QUOTE="Epic__Lulz"]

Because there is not one

VoodooGamer

You might be convinced otherwise.

Yeah.. That's what we call hard work and determination.

If youshowed me one person who was a slave, who never had the thought of being free, I would call that person troubled.

Astrapsody

You misunderstood me (intentionally or no, I can't tell). I didn't ask if the slave didn't want to be free. I asked what if the slave had no concept of freedom. What if his slavery is all he knows?

[QUOTE="WhiteSnake5000"][QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

magitekk

In the bible, it mentions that all humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve. Therefore, we make problems similar to the problem they made in the garden every single day. God has the same view with us, in that case

Do you think children deserve to suffer and starve? It's not their fault.

I love how everyone has avoided the comment I made before the last for perhaps the fact that it might have an acceptable answer for all of your rambling about
"God and suffering"

[QUOTE="Famiking"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] i created a drug that stops cancer. i saved the human race. should i become your God?

curtkobain

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

If youshowed me one person who was a slave, who never had the thought of being free, I would call that person troubled.

Theokhoth

You misunderstood me (intentionally or no, I can't tell). I didn't ask if the slave didn't want to be free. I asked what if the slave had no concept of freedom. What if his slavery is all he knows?

[QUOTE="Epic__Lulz"]

Because there is not one

VoodooGamer

You might be convinced otherwise.

My favourite is ravel

Yeah.. That's what we call hard work and determination.

FlyingArmbar

I call it magic.

[QUOTE="WhiteSnake5000"][QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

magitekk

In the bible, it mentions that all humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve. Therefore, we make problems similar to the problem they made in the garden every single day. God has the same view with us, in that case

Because God can do whatever the hell He feels like doing?

Silverbond

That is awesome thinking.The Christian god is a very neglectful god.

Love and murder are concepts. God didn't create those any more than He created the concept of a triangle.

The acts of loving and killing are not performed by God but by humans, that God created.Theokhoth

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

If youshowed me one person who was a slave, who never had the thought of being free, I would call that person troubled.

curtkobain

You misunderstood me (intentionally or no, I can't tell). I didn't ask if the slave didn't want to be free. I asked what if the slave had no concept of freedom. What if his slavery is all he knows?

Free will can be influenced, but again, you misunderstand me. You were not speaking of slavery in the mental sense, but the physical.

Let's assume there was no light in the universe whatsoever. Not a speck of light. Let's assume it was always this way. Now let's assume humans existed always in this darkness.

Given this scenario, would the concept of "darkness" exist?

[QUOTE="magitekk"]

[QUOTE="WhiteSnake5000"] I didn't do it. It was someone else. Can you really blame me for someone's mistake? Astrapsody

In the bible, it mentions that all humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve. Therefore, we make problems similar to the problem they made in the garden every single day. God has the same view with us, in that case

Do you think children deserve to suffer and starve? It's not their fault.

As I had said, God has left them to fend for their own for the fact that they are sinful. If they have obstacles in the way that prevent them from achieving food, it was not God who brought it on, other humans had done this. And as I said before, God will not interfere with free will for the fact that if he were to do so, he would break his promise and be considered "imperfect". So in that case, he is unable to change those who have done the true harm to those children, they will stay as they are

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Famiking"] Cancer isn't slowly causing the extinction of the human race, so no.

Famiking

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

You misunderstood me (intentionally or no, I can't tell). I didn't ask if the slave didn't want to be free. I asked what if the slave had no concept of freedom. What if his slavery is all he knows?

Theokhoth

Free will can be influenced, but again, you misunderstand me. You were not speaking of slavery in the mental sense, but the physical.

Let's assume there was no light in the universe whatsoever. Not a speck of light. Let's assume it was always this way. Now let's assume humans existed always in this darkness.

Given this scenario, would the concept of "darkness" exist?

Concepts are part of the universe. God created everything in the universe, including humans, and gave them the ability to come up with those concepts... thus God indirectly created those concepts since it was part of his plan for everything.

And it can be argued that God directs people to do those things, it depends on who you ask. Unless you are talking about a deist or pantheist God, God does as many bad things as he does good things... he's God, the ruler and creator of everything. He created the devil, he created heaven... he created absolutely everything. If he didn't, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

foxhound_fox

Concepts are not a part of the universe, because concepts are not tangible.

Omnipotence only denotes the ability to create everything; it does not denote the necessity to create everything. I believe God did not create the devil, or angels, or human souls, in the traditional sense.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] then he is not human, because humans have "free will" given to them by God.curtkobain

Free will can be influenced, but again, you misunderstand me. You were not speaking of slavery in the mental sense, but the physical.

Let's assume there was no light in the universe whatsoever. Not a speck of light. Let's assume it was always this way. Now let's assume humans existed always in this darkness.

Given this scenario, would the concept of "darkness" exist?

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

[QUOTE="magitekk"]

[QUOTE="WhiteSnake5000"] I didn't do it. It was someone else. Can you really blame me for someone's mistake? curtkobain

In the bible, it mentions that all humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve. Therefore, we make problems similar to the problem they made in the garden every single day. God has the same view with us, in that case

In the bible, it also says that children are unable to go to hell. But as you turn into an adult, there's no doubt that you would've sinned multiple times before then

Seriously why is there even going to be a final battle ? couldn't god just wipe everyone out with a flick ?

WHY DOESN'T HE DO THAT NOW?

Concepts are not a part of the universe, because concepts are not tangible.

Omnipotence only denotes the ability to create everything; it does not denote the necessity to create everything. I believe God did not create the devil, or angels, or human souls, in the traditional sense.

Theokhoth

[QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

Astrapsody

We have to earn life? I thought it was a "God-given" right in our (America's) Constitution to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Why shouldn't it be the right of starving children?

I don't remember breaking any deal either. Why didn't I get a chance in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve screwed up and now the rest of humanity has to pay for it?

First of all, Adam and Eve aren't real.

Secondly, God gave us minds and hands to think and do labor to take care of ourselves.

Why do you think Jesus broke wine and bread at the last supper instead of grapes and wheat? It's because bread and wine take human labor to make, wheras wheat and grapes are just natural happenings. Humans have to grind the wheat to make the meal and eventually the bread. Humans have to crush the grapes and ferment the juice to become the wine. God made us in his image, he gave us a mind to praise him, but he also gave us our hands to use and do things with. Being a Christian isn't just about what we think, it's also about what we do.

Now it says "ask and you shall recieve," and since we are made in God's image, if there is something like a hurricane and God doesn't 'spread the waters' and cause all the damage to cease, it's up to us to use our human hands to get ourselves out of the mess.

And what about this argument: "Some people aren't able to help themselves in a bad situation, like those who are disabled and such." Well, when God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, he banished them to a land of toil and labor, of suffering and disease and death.

"Well, that isn't my fault. That's Adam and Eve's fault."

Yes, but as their children, we all inherit Original Sin and are born with sin.

"Well, why can't God save us from this sin that I didn't even 'pluck from the tree?'"

He did. He sacrificed his own child to die for our sins.

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="curtkobain"] id be willing to bet that everybody on the earth is somehow affected by cancer in a negative way. i just removed a terrible blight from humanity, should i not be praised immensely?curtkobain

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Free will can be influenced, but again, you misunderstand me. You were not speaking of slavery in the mental sense, but the physical.

Let's assume there was no light in the universe whatsoever. Not a speck of light. Let's assume it was always this way. Now let's assume humans existed always in this darkness.

Given this scenario, would the concept of "darkness" exist?

Theokhoth

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

Then you are merely arguing your perspective, and not the more popular perspective. Absolutely everything in the universe, tangible or intangible, was created by God... according to the more accepted definition of an omnipotent creator.

foxhound_fox

This is the defintion of omnipotence: the ability to create anything. Can God? Yes. Must God? No. Moving from "can" to "must" is a non sequitur.

I contend that the intangible cannot be created.

[QUOTE="FlyingArmbar"]

Yeah.. That's what we call hard work and determination.

VoodooGamer

I call it magic.

Call it what you want. Mozart created that symphony through hard work and experimentation over the course of one summer.
Giving the credit to anyone or anything other than him is rediculous.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] neither darkness nor light would exist.curtkobain

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

Freedom exists, but unless we have a previous idea of freedom, our concepts of it can not exist. You cannot recognise a broken line until you've seen a straight one.

A person without the concept of freedom will never care about freedom, just like a person without a concept of darkness will never care about darkness.