Religious Question (uh oh)

Ok, I'll take a shot at this topic. "Whydo the innocent suffer""

First off, I think one has to decide if they truly believe that there is a "God" or Creator".and be able to intelligently explain whyand reasonably support their belief. For the record I do believe that there is a Creator, a God of Love. The question of the "suffering of innocents" is a fair one to ask of someone who belieives in a God Of Love.

I believe God is Love and that's why God "created" in the first place. Love desires to be expressed and shared.People are known as "loving" because of there acts of charity, sacrifice, unselfishness, compassion.... towards others.I believe the same is true for God. I believe one reasonGodcreated living beings was for them to be recipients of the expression of divine and truelove. I also believe God "desires"that love be returned as well.

But, God is also "wise". What good is love if it's not freely given from the heart of the giver? Love cannot be forced and God did not want "robots".So, the problem, (as stated in one of the Matrix movies) is"CHOICE".If Love is the goal and Love can only be"freely" given, how do you create a free-will being, then limit the choice to do evil? If God limits our choices (or consistently intervenes to change a negative reslut to positive)then we are not truly free. Some free-will beings will choose evil, and pain and suffering will follow, even for the innocent.Evil, pain and suffering are natural results of free-will.

This fact doesn't make me dis-believe in a loving God it makes me believe that somewhere, some way, some how God'slove, wisdom, compassion, power...etc. has a plan to deal with all those who cause suffering and those who suffer, especially the innocent. I may not and cannot understand it all here and now, but I believe at some point during "eternity"it will all be made "right".

Personalyy I believe Goddoes have a master plan to deal with eviland sin and did from the"beginning". I believe their is a time limitfor evil. I believe more is at stake than we know, I believe God was challenged by a free-will being on a higher "plane"and the scenario is playing out here on earth while the whole universe watches. It may appear that God is oblivious to the happenings herebut, imo, that is far from the truth. God's master plan to deal with"all this" will be as brilliant as the workings of the human body or the universe and all it contains

One other point, and this is not meant to be a"smart aleck" remark. I believe the question God would ask us is "What have we done to relieve the suffering of others? Even one person can make a difference...Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Harriet Tubbman....etc.

mont13

1 word...Wow...that speech was epic

@ blakout3,

Thanks.

[QUOTE="mont13"]

Ok, I'll take a shot at this topic. "Whydo the innocent suffer""

First off, I think one has to decide if they truly believe that there is a "God" or Creator".and be able to intelligently explain whyand reasonably support their belief. For the record I do believe that there is a Creator, a God of Love. The question of the "suffering of innocents" is a fair one to ask of someone who belieives in a God Of Love.

I believe God is Love and that's why God "created" in the first place. Love desires to be expressed and shared.People are known as "loving" because of there acts of charity, sacrifice, unselfishness, compassion.... towards others.I believe the same is true for God. I believe one reasonGodcreated living beings was for them to be recipients of the expression of divine and truelove. I also believe God "desires"that love be returned as well.

But, God is also "wise". What good is love if it's not freely given from the heart of the giver? Love cannot be forced and God did not want "robots".So, the problem, (as stated in one of the Matrix movies) is"CHOICE".If Love is the goal and Love can only be"freely" given, how do you create a free-will being, then limit the choice to do evil? If God limits our choices (or consistently intervenes to change a negative reslut to positive)then we are not truly free. Some free-will beings will choose evil, and pain and suffering will follow, even for the innocent.Evil, pain and suffering are natural results of free-will.

This fact doesn't make me dis-believe in a loving God it makes me believe that somewhere, some way, some how God'slove, wisdom, compassion, power...etc. has a plan to deal with all those who cause suffering and those who suffer, especially the innocent. I may not and cannot understand it all here and now, but I believe at some point during "eternity"it will all be made "right".

Personalyy I believe Goddoes have a master plan to deal with eviland sin and did from the"beginning". I believe their is a time limitfor evil. I believe more is at stake than we know, I believe God was challenged by a free-will being on a higher "plane"and the scenario is playing out here on earth while the whole universe watches. It may appear that God is oblivious to the happenings herebut, imo, that is far from the truth. God's master plan to deal with"all this" will be as brilliant as the workings of the human body or the universe and all it contains

One other point, and this is not meant to be a"smart aleck" remark. I believe the question God would ask us is "What have we done to relieve the suffering of others? Even one person can make a difference...Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Harriet Tubbman....etc.

blakout3

1 word...Wow...that speech was epic

One word...wow....starving children don't have free-will. They can't do anything about their food problem. Nobody has answered that yet. I'm just saying, if I had the power to create a universe and everything in it, I think I should be able to supply food to suffering, starving children. I'm pretty sure God did that for Moses and his people somewhere in the Bible. Why not do it now? I really doubt giving starving children food (from God) will turn them into obeying robots.

Originally God made everything perfect. His only rule was not to eat from a tree, a rather simple rule if you ask me. The consequence for doing so was a fallen world, and since Adam and Eve ate from it their sin has spread to all of creation. Don't worry, it will all be fixed when Jesus returns :DHead_of_games

1) Well, I didn't eat from the forbidden tree. That's sort of messed up to have the rest of the human race cursed with sin.

2) I guess we can just wait until then. Who cares if children are suffering as we type? It'll all be better when Jesus comes.

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

[QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

Moroes

We have to earn life? I thought it was a "God-given" right in our (America's) Constitution to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Why shouldn't it be the right of starving children?

I don't remember breaking any deal either. Why didn't I get a chance in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve screwed up and now the rest of humanity has to pay for it?

Okay, but I do remember the Bible saying that God is a fair God. If God isn't a fair God, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him.

Originally God made everything perfect. His only rule was not to eat from a tree, a rather simple rule if you ask me. The consequence for doing so was a fallen world, and since Adam and Eve ate from it their sin has spread to all of creation. Don't worry, it will all be fixed when Jesus returns :DHead_of_games

You run on the assumption god loves humanity.

Looking at human beings and how we are, even the "faithful" among us, I seriously doubt any sort of diety could love us.

If there is an all-powerful God in heaven, why is it not in his power to help out with the big world problems? World hunger being one big one. It seems extremely illogical for an all-powerful being who created the universe to not be able to instantly feed starving people. This is one of the many reasons I say there is no "God" in a religious sense.

1) Don't tell me that starving people "deserve" this, because they don't (I've often been given that as a response, or an excuse, to this question).

If there is an all-powerful God in heaven, why is it not in his power to help out with the big world problems? World hunger being one big one. It seems extremely illogical for an all-powerful being who created the universe to not be able to instantly feed starving people. This is one of the many reasons I say there is no "God" in a religious sense.

1) Don't tell me that starving people "deserve" this, because they don't (I've often been given that as a response, or an excuse, to this question).

@ Astrapsody,

Not having "free-will" (as you say children don't have)will not prevent one from suffering the consequences of someone else's free-will choice to perform evil. If God intervenes and provides for all the suffering children then God has disrupted the resluts of someone elses choice to do harm.

This "thing" has to play out. Free-will or not, you can still be the innocent victim of someone else's choice to do wrong.The guy who decides to drive drunk then crashes into another killing him and his family (wife and kids) on their way to the store. A gunfight errupts and an innocent bystander is shot and killed at a bus stop. Someone decides to do harm to some poor innocent animal....We can go on and on with the suffering of the innocent on large and samll scales.

The bottom line is there is no other way to have a free-will universe without going through the process and consequences of "free-will". If God intervenes in every situation where the innocent suffer, that is God saving us from ourselves, we never "grow"and it doesn't lead to the goal. imo, of having a universe that operates on love, but love by free choice.There can be no other type of love.

I'm not sure what you fully believe, but if you believe there is no life after death then you would be right in thinking there is a sick and twisted game being played out on earth and there is no God. But I believe God has a plan, the goal is "perfection" for us, we are in the early stages of the program and the earth is our training ground. Here we have a chance to learn that compassion, unselfishness, patience and any other virtue is the better way. If we don't, maybe we repeat the process in another lifetime, maybe reincarnation is real.If we do learn, we move on to next stage of our "training", until we reach perfection. The end resut is a being who's compelling force in "life" is love. But we can't get there if God consistently intervenes in our affairs. It's an eternity long process and, again at some point I believe God will make it right for the innocent.

As far as the Bible and its's stories, that is another story itself. Most operate on the belief that the Bible is the 100% word of God. I believe that there is much truth in it, but also believe it has been tampered with....but again, that's another story.

He is helping world hunger, I see millions of people helping out the cause.

Don't worry. You'll get lots of people responding that it's just "part of God's plan". :roll:chessmaster1989

If there is an all-powerful God in heaven, why is it not in his power to help out with the big world problems? World hunger being one big one. It seems extremely illogical for an all-powerful being who created the universe to not be able to instantly feed starving people. This is one of the many reasons I say there is no "God" in a religious sense.

1) Don't tell me that starving people "deserve" this, because they don't (I've often been given that as a response, or an excuse, to this question).

Just because He doesn't help out....doesn't mean he can't. And by help out do you mean totally take over control?

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Free will can be influenced, but again, you misunderstand me. You were not speaking of slavery in the mental sense, but the physical.

Let's assume there was no light in the universe whatsoever. Not a speck of light. Let's assume it was always this way. Now let's assume humans existed always in this darkness.

Given this scenario, would the concept of "darkness" exist?

Theokhoth

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

Your ignorance and immature attitude with religion is quite irritating.Solid_Snake325

Hmm.

Or maybe it's part of God's good plan that has not come to final tuition just yet...mindstorm

Well, everyone dies eventually, so yes, that is his plan ;)Famiking

Not so ignorant after all.

If God exists, everything that happens is his plan. So world hunger, terrorism, war, genocide - they're all his plan. God wanted all of it to happen.Bourbons3

[QUOTE="Solid_Snake325"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Hmm.

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]If God exists, everything that happens is his plan. So world hunger, terrorism, war, genocide - they're all his plan. God wanted all of it to happen.Solid_Snake325

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] Or maybe it's part of God's good plan that has not come to final tuition just yet...bsman00

That goes for you too Llama :)Solid_Snake325

it was joke... there is no "god"bsman00

[QUOTE="Solid_Snake325"][QUOTE="Bourbons3"]If God exists, everything that happens is his plan. So world hunger, terrorism, war, genocide - they're all his plan. God wanted all of it to happen.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Solid_Snake325"]

That goes for you too Llama :)

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="Solid_Snake325"] I can't stand statements like these. Mankind is the reason why all this evil occurred. It may be a part of God's plan, but it certainly will not end there, and it absolutely does not mean God wanted it to happen...Solid_Snake325

[QUOTE="Solid_Snake325"]

That goes for you too Llama :)

Ok, I'll take a shot at this topic. "Whydo the innocent suffer""

First off, I think one has to decide if they truly believe that there is a "God" or Creator".and be able to intelligently explain whyand reasonably support their belief. For the record I do believe that there is a Creator, a God of Love.

mont13

[QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mindstorm"] Or maybe it's part of God's good plan that has not come to final tuition just yet...mindstorm

If you don't believe in God you shouldn't be replying to this thread because this is a question posed for those that do. If you do believe in God you should be out there helping people instead of buying your stairway to heaven.

We've had this argument before, there is no concrete answer to this question. I'd gladly give my ideas as to why, but I have to go to psychology class (starts in 5 minutes). You always seem to post whenever I have to leave :PSolid_Snake325

[QUOTE="mont13"]

Ok, I'll take a shot at this topic. "Whydo the innocent suffer""

First off, I think one has to decide if they truly believe that there is a "God" or Creator".and be able to intelligently explain whyand reasonably support their belief. For the record I do believe that there is a Creator, a God of Love.

SkyWard20

Maybe I don't fully understand your comment but if one has the intent to do evil but is prevented from following through by God, is it really "free-will".

For me this is not an unanswerable question. In a "free will" world, suffering is inevitable. Those kids may not have free-will, but they live in a free-will world and many will suffer because of it. So an intelligent God has an intelligent plan to deal with it.If anyone can think of a better way to bring about true love and personality perfection,without the vehicle of free-will, I'm sure God is all ears. But free-will and suffering go hand in hand, can't have one without the other. These writing explain it best for me.

http://mercy.urantia.org/paper3.htmlPlease scroll down to pg. 51 and consider the 9 listed items and the sentence preceding them, deep stuff.

I guess the link doesn't work so type it in. I think it's worth it.

God gave us free will.

That's why he doesn't interfere in the bad things humans do. He loves us enough to let us CHOOSE to love him.

im_really_rich

That makes sense for the bad dudes that make people suffer but when your born into it, is that free will. I think not.

No there is a god... just not the one you worship from the bible....bsman00

Don't give me that b.s. Those children aren't choosing to starve to death. Tell me how children dying is a part of his plan. Do you really think everybody chooses their own fate?!

Astrapsody

I've read comments from Atheists here who view the"free-will" explanation for suffering as "b.s.", bogus, a cop-out...etc. I'd like to see if I'm corrctly understanding the Atheist's position.One thing we can agree onis that "pain and suffering" are facts of life. We just process it in different ways. No one has all the answers. First, I'l restate my belief:

In mybelief system there is an intelligent Creative force that created a univers and world, and peopled it with intelligent, free-will beings that can procreate and birth into existence other beings who can potentially grow to the point of realizing they have free will also. These free-will beings have the capacity to do great good and also great evil,even to the point of hindering or totally stopping an innocent being from reaching the point offree will expression on earth through mudrer, starvation and a whole host of evil deeds.

The Creator realized the capacity for evil in free-will beings and therefore has a divine plan in place to compensate (for lack of a better term) those who suffer innocently. This plan takes place over eternity, so my belief is that "death' here on earth is not the end of all things. I am appalled at the amount of pain and suffering here and it saddens my heart greatly. But I also belief there is an accounting for evil doers (not necessarily hell-fire, I have some problems with that), and I believe there also is a glorious , beyond human comprehension, reward (for lack of a better term) for the innocent who suffer on earth. This belief system gives me "hope"which helps me cope with all the pain and suffering experiencd in our short but intense llife on earth.

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If I undersatnd your (Atheist) belief system, and correct me if I'm wrong, you belief there is no "God" and we live in a place where some have free-will and others are at the mercy of that free will. You are appalled at the amount of pain and suffering of the innocent. You can't understand how children can suffer so painfully here,only to dieand never exist again, because there is no life after death in your belief system. There is no Creator to compensate the innocent, no hope for a glorious life in eternity. You see the suffering of innocent children as proof that there is no God.

You view "free-will" as over-rated. If there is a God you believe God should have either not given us free-will and programmed us only to do good. Or you wish God would intervene inevery free-will choice to do harm to prevent the innocent from suffering. You also wish that God would have not given us the power to procreate because we are only bringing more children into a world where they could potentially be victims of this free-will thing. You reason, what's the sense of bringing more children into a world to potentially suffer horribly only to die?? You belief either god is a sick twisted being, or god doesn't exsist. Everytime you hear about large scale suffering of the innocent it brings you down and saddens your heart because you realize their is no hope for them ever again in eternity because physical death is the end for them.

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I may be wrong, but I'll stick with my own belief system for now.

If there is an all-powerful God in heaven, why is it not in his power to help out with the big world problems? World hunger being one big one. It seems extremely illogical for an all-powerful being who created the universe to not be able to instantly feed starving people. This is one of the many reasons I say there is no "God" in a religious sense.

1) Don't tell me that starving people "deserve" this, because they don't (I've often been given that as a response, or an excuse, to this question).

Astrapsody

and your assertion of the negation of "they deserve this" is way off-mark. Perhaps you should read Paul's epistle to the Romans sometime.

Que theist cop out argument: "God moves in mysterious ways"

From what i've heard, God is perfect. So i guess this doesn't mean he is necessarily good or bad. But what do i know, i'm an atheist.randizzle93

I don't believe Atheist's don't know anything. If a person has no questions then that person is not thinking. The God I believe in respects honest, sincere questions. I believe there is a God because the things around me and in me appear to be created. They act like created things. They work with intelligence.

If I cut myself my blood clots as if by design, so I won't bleed to death.Does blood "know " to clot, did it evolve into clotting over time. How, wouldn't the entity bleed to death first? I have eyes in a prime location on my face. Why aren't they on the bottom of my feet? Because they are not needed there, that wouldn't be intelligent. Were they at one point on the bottom of my feet, then evolved to a central spot on my face?? If so, how did they know to move to my face? Why not one under an arm pit. They are centrally located on my face as if by intelligent design. I haven't even gotten into the functions of the heart, lungs, kidneys, nervous system, brain................they all work with a supreme intelligence as if by design. Why should I believe otherwise?? The only problem I have with Atheists is when some of them act like a bellief in a Creator is silly, immature, ridiculous..etc. Given the above, and much more, I think belief in a supreme Creator is very reasonable.

I can't conclude that this supreme being I call God put all this brilliant thought into creating the things that exsist then went insane and does'nt have a clue or intelligent plan on how to deal with pain and suffering.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"][QUOTE="mont13"]

Ok, I'll take a shot at this topic. "Whydo the innocent suffer""

First off, I think one has to decide if they truly believe that there is a "God" or Creator".and be able to intelligently explain whyand reasonably support their belief. For the record I do believe that there is a Creator, a God of Love.

mont13

Maybe I don't fully understand your comment but if one has the intent to do evil but is prevented from following through by God, is it really "free-will".

- free will is different from the freedom to act as you please, because the existence of free will is unconditional to the existence of the freedom to act (within your physical limits). Our freedom to act can be more easily taken away from us (not necessarily by God) than our freedom to think as we would like. 'Free will' is defined as the ability to make individual conscious decisions, and it differs from the possibility to prevent the physical undertaking of a conscious decision.

Hypothetically, a potential victim could also ask God for help (and would, with the help of God, consciously be able to prevent harm).

In my original post - what I was trying to say is that for one to be able to do harm, that person must have the means to do so. Not having the means to do any harm wouldn't undermine the concept of free will, but restrict the freedom to act. One would also assume that if an aspect of life would be nonexistent or fundamentally different about God's creation, we wouldn't actually feel 'restricted'. It isn't possible to lose something you never had and never existed, or to be in realization of that loss.

If you don't believe in God you shouldn't be replying to this thread because this is a question posed for those that do. If you do believe in God you should be out there helping people instead of buying your stairway to heaven.BeepBoop16

When I say God doesn't intervene in our"Free-will", I'm including actions also. I have the free-will to plan a robbery then leave the house and actually rob someone. God is not going to stop me from doing so, generally speaking. I add the last part because I don't fool myself into thinking I know all about God,I'm sure there are cases of divine intervention. Still not sure if we're on the same page because my mind is half on the Laker game....speaking of which..........gotta go.