Religious Question (uh oh)

[QUOTE="curtkobain"]

[QUOTE="Famiking"] You should be praised, not as a god though :?Famiking

Seriously why is there even going to be a final battle ? couldn't god just wipe everyone out with a flick ?

WHY DOESN'T HE DO THAT NOW?

Epic__Lulz

What does that have to do with anything?

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

Theokhoth

Freedom exists, but unless we have a previous idea of freedom, our concepts of it can not exist. You cannot recognise a broken line until you've seen a straight one.

A person without the concept of freedom will never care about freedom, just like a person without a concept of darkness will never care about darkness.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] but if most people can see the light, but a few cannot, freedom does exist. it is only taken away from some.curtkobain

Freedom exists, but unless we have a previous idea of freedom, our concepts of it can not exist. You cannot recognise a broken line until you've seen a straight one.

A person without the concept of freedom will never care about freedom, just like a person without a concept of darkness will never care about darkness.

Free will is the ability to make your own choices based on what information you have available to you; it has nothing to do with the concepts of freedom and slavery.

In addition, I disagree that it is free will that makes us human. Young children have no free will; are they not human?

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Then you are merely arguing your perspective, and not the more popular perspective. Absolutely everything in the universe, tangible or intangible, was created by God... according to the more accepted definition of an omnipotent creator.

Theokhoth

This is the defintion of omnipotence: the ability to create anything. Can God? Yes. Must God? No. Moving from "can" to "must" is a non sequitur.

I contend that the intangible cannot be created.

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Free will can be influenced, but again, you misunderstand me. You were not speaking of slavery in the mental sense, but the physical.

Let's assume there was no light in the universe whatsoever. Not a speck of light. Let's assume it was always this way. Now let's assume humans existed always in this darkness.

Given this scenario, would the concept of "darkness" exist?

Theokhoth

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

[QUOTE="curtkobain"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Freedom exists, but unless we have a previous idea of freedom, our concepts of it can not exist. You cannot recognise a broken line until you've seen a straight one.

A person without the concept of freedom will never care about freedom, just like a person without a concept of darkness will never care about darkness.

Theokhoth

Free will is the ability to make your own choices based on what information you have available to you; it has nothing to do with the concepts of freedom and slavery.

In addition, I disagree that it is free will that makes us human. Young children have no free will; are they not human?

Children are given free will....it is their choice to follow their parents, they can break away anytime they wish.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] neither darkness nor light would exist.SkyWard20

Exactly.

A person who only knows slavery will not have a concept of freedom, and as such won't care about freedom or bemoan his slavery.

I can agree with that.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] then that person does not have free will; therefore, his humanity has been taken by another human.magitekk

Free will is the ability to make your own choices based on what information you have available to you; it has nothing to do with the concepts of freedom and slavery.

In addition, I disagree that it is free will that makes us human. Young children have no free will; are they not human?

Children are given free will....it is their choice to follow their parents, they can break away anytime they wish.

Children under three, before they're even self-aware?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Then you are merely arguing your perspective, and not the more popular perspective. Absolutely everything in the universe, tangible or intangible, was created by God... according to the more accepted definition of an omnipotent creator.

curtkobain

This is the defintion of omnipotence: the ability to create anything. Can God? Yes. Must God? No. Moving from "can" to "must" is a non sequitur.

I contend that the intangible cannot be created.

I've already said that I do not believe God created love nor that love can be created.

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

[QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

im_really_rich

We have to earn life? I thought it was a "God-given" right in our (America's) Constitution to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Why shouldn't it be the right of starving children?

I don't remember breaking any deal either. Why didn't I get a chance in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve screwed up and now the rest of humanity has to pay for it?

First of all, Adam and Eve aren't real.

Secondly, God gave us minds and hands to think and do labor to take care of ourselves.

Why do you think Jesus broke wine and bread at the last supper instead of grapes and wheat? It's because bread and wine take human labor to make, wheras wheat and grapes are just natural happenings. Humans have to grind the wheat to make the meal and eventually the bread. Humans have to crush the grapes and ferment the juice to become the wine. God made us in his image, he gave us a mind to praise him, but he also gave us our hands to use and do things with. Being a Christian isn't just about what we think, it's also about what we do.

Now it says "ask and you shall recieve," and since we are made in God's image, if there is something like a hurricane and God doesn't 'spread the waters' and cause all the damage to cease, it's up to us to use our human hands to get ourselves out of the mess.

And what about this argument: "Some people aren't able to help themselves in a bad situation, like those who are disabled and such." Well, when God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, he banished them to a land of toil and labor, of suffering and disease and death.

"Well, that isn't my fault. That's Adam and Eve's fault."

Yes, but as their children, we all inherit Original Sin and are born with sin.

"Well, why can't God save us from this sin that I didn't even 'pluck from the tree?'"

He did. He sacrificed his own child to die for our sins.

To bad he didn't do it sooner. Like before he wiped out the Earth with the great big flood.

Anyways, this is my argument. Children are suffering from starvation. Children don't choose to starve. So why are they suffering. It's not right. Even if it's all they know, it's not right. You'd have to be heartless to say otherwise.

then how did God create love? love is intangible.curtkobain

[QUOTE="curtkobain"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

This is the defintion of omnipotence: the ability to create anything. Can God? Yes. Must God? No. Moving from "can" to "must" is a non sequitur.

I contend that the intangible cannot be created.

Theokhoth

I've already said that I do not believe God created love nor that love can be created.

[QUOTE="curtkobain"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

This is the defintion of omnipotence: the ability to create anything. Can God? Yes. Must God? No. Moving from "can" to "must" is a non sequitur.

I contend that the intangible cannot be created.

Theokhoth

I've already said that I do not believe God created love nor that love can be created.

So your saying that feelings simply exist?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] then how did God create love? love is intangible.

curtkobain

I've already said that I do not believe God created love nor that love can be created.

Love the action is different from Love the concept; another thing I have already contended.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="curtkobain"] then how did God create love? love is intangible.

Astrapsody

I've already said that I do not believe God created love nor that love can be created.

So your saying that feelings simply exist?

Yes and no. It gets very off-topic from here and I'd rather not enter the territory of what I believe love comes from.

[QUOTE="curtkobain"]then how did God create love? love is intangible.foxhound_fox

Realization. :lol:

To bad he didn't do it sooner. Like before he wiped out the Earth with the great big flood.

Anyways, this is my argument. Children are suffering from starvation. Children don't choose to starve. So why are they suffering. It's not right. Even if it's all they know, it's not right. You'd have to be heartless to say otherwise.

Astrapsody

"People will die of feast while others die of hunger" a hadith predicted in the 7th century ;)

edit: anyway, it's 04:30 here and I have to get up in 2 hours, toodles.

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

I've already said that I do not believe God created love nor that love can be created.

Theokhoth

So your saying that feelings simply exist?

Yes and no. It gets very off-topic from here and I'd rather not enter the territory of what I believe love comes from.

Off-topic? You have no idea. Compare the first post to the posts on this page. You have already entered the realm of off-topic.

[QUOTE="magitekk"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Free will is the ability to make your own choices based on what information you have available to you; it has nothing to do with the concepts of freedom and slavery.

In addition, I disagree that it is free will that makes us human. Young children have no free will; are they not human?

Theokhoth

Children are given free will....it is their choice to follow their parents, they can break away anytime they wish.

Children under three, before they're even self-aware?

There are children younger than 3 who are self-aware. I watched a news segment a few weeks ago about a 2 year old who was ashamed of herself because she thought she was fat.

Of course young kids have free-will, every human and animal has free will. If you hand a one year old cheerios it can choose to eat them or choose to throw them onto the ground.

[QUOTE="Astrapsody"]To bad he didn't do it sooner. Like before he wiped out the Earth with the great big flood.

Anyways, this is my argument. Children are suffering from starvation. Children don't choose to starve. So why are they suffering. It's not right. Even if it's all they know, it's not right. You'd have to be heartless to say otherwise.

Famiking

"People will die of feast while others die of hunger" a hadith predicted in the 7th century ;)

Yes, I know why children are starving. I want to know why this all-powerful universe creating (and law creating) God can't help suffering children. For they have not sinned. If this is part of God's plan I cannot allow myself to be a part of God.

Listen everyone. When those 4 horses sweep the earth killing everyone who doesn't believe, all that is left to do is say told you so

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="magitekk"]

Children are given free will....it is their choice to follow their parents, they can break away anytime they wish.

FlyingArmbar

Children under three, before they're even self-aware?

There are children younger than 3 who are self-aware. I just finished watching some news segment about a 2 year old who was ashamed of herself because she thought she was fat.

Of course young kids have free-will, every human and animal has free will. If you hand a one year old cheerios it can choose to eat them or choose to throw them onto the ground.

Freedom of the mind is different than freedom of actual choice. These children are not choosing to suffer and starve.

Listen everyone. When those 4 horses sweep the earth killing everyone who doesn't believe, all that is left to do is say told you so

blakout3

Stop worrying about some neglectful god in the sky dude

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="magitekk"]

Children are given free will....it is their choice to follow their parents, they can break away anytime they wish.

FlyingArmbar

Children under three, before they're even self-aware?

There are children younger than 3 who are self-aware. I watched a news segment a few weeks ago about a 2 year old who was ashamed of herself because she thought she was fat.

Of course young kids have free-will, every human and animal has free will. If you hand a one year old cheerios it can choose to eat them or choose to throw them onto the ground.

Animals do not have free will; they have instinct.

Babies don't know what a cheerio is. :| They eat the cheerios because they'll eat anything; they're curious. The two-year-old you heard of is a rare exception to the rule.

Newborn children do not typically have free will. They do not consciously choose based on available data to them.

Animals do not have free will; they have instinct.

Babies don't know what a cheerio is. :| They eat the cheerios because they'll eat anything; they're curious. The two-year-old you heard of is a rare exception to the rule.

Newborn children do not typically have free will. They do not consciously choose based on available data to them.

Theokhoth

A two-year old has a choice to move either side-ways or forward--that is free will is it not?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Animals do not have free will; they have instinct.

Babies don't know what a cheerio is. :| They eat the cheerios because they'll eat anything; they're curious. The two-year-old you heard of is a rare exception to the rule.

Newborn children do not typically have free will. They do not consciously choose based on available data to them.

VoodooGamer

A two-year old has a choice to move either side-ways or forward--that is free will is it not?

Do they know that they are moving sideways or forward?

Do they know that they are moving sideways or forward?

Theokhoth

I would say that they do.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Do they know that they are moving sideways or forward?

VoodooGamer

I would say that they do.

How can they if they don't know what "sideways" and "foreward" are?

How can they if they don't know what "sideways" and "foreward" are?

Theokhoth

They may not be able to explain them as you and I can, but I believe they are aware of them, mostly from experience of moving forward, sideways, and backwards.

Most Christians would say everything happens for a reason, which is a load of horse **** There is no God! No mighty being is watching us from a place called Heaven. You live and you die, that is every ones future and that is how all living things are, there is no mystical after life for all the good people. It seems like something someone made up so that people would be scared into doing good in their life.

Either god is completely the opposite of what many people describe him as (Thinking that he's merciful,good,wonderful or w/e) or is completely non-existant and just made up to oppress the masses via brainwashing,mass genocide,etcGod-Is-Dead

Yeah, pretty much. I think religion was just a scare tactic, a way to control people.

If there is an all-powerful God in heaven, why is it not in his power to help out with the big world problems? World hunger being one big one. It seems extremely illogical for an all-powerful being who created the universe to not be able to instantly feed starving people. This is one of the many reasons I say there is no "God" in a religious sense.

1) Don't tell me that starving people "deserve" this, because they don't (I've often been given that as a response, or an excuse, to this question).

Astrapsody

Maybe it's the same reason why your not over there giving the food in your kitcken to them right now. Maybe he has his own business to deal with or just dosen't want too. People suffering in a sense dosen't disprove God in anyway. Maybe just his motitives.

And aren't humans together an "all powerful" force. I mean if us humans were really united wouldn't we find a to solve world hunger? Why don't we just unite and solve world hunger itself. It's not because of God blocking our way it's because we have our own business to deal with. Or were just selfish.

Ok, I'll take a shot at this topic. "Whydo the innocent suffer""

First off, I think one has to decide if they truly believe that there is a "God" or Creator".and be able to intelligently explain whyand reasonably support their belief. For the record I do believe that there is a Creator, a God of Love. The question of the "suffering of innocents" is a fair one to ask of someone who belieives in a God Of Love.

I believe God is Love and that's why God "created" in the first place. Love desires to be expressed and shared.People are known as "loving" because of there acts of charity, sacrifice, unselfishness, compassion.... towards others.I believe the same is true for God. I believe one reasonGodcreated living beings was for them to be recipients of the expression of divine and truelove. I also believe God "desires"that love be returned as well.

But, God is also "wise". What good is love if it's not freely given from the heart of the giver? Love cannot be forced and God did not want "robots".So, the problem, (as stated in one of the Matrix movies) is"CHOICE".If Love is the goal and Love can only be"freely" given, how do you create a free-will being, then limit the choice to do evil? If God limits our choices (or consistently intervenes to change a negative reslut to positive)then we are not truly free. Some free-will beings will choose evil, and pain and suffering will follow, even for the innocent.Evil, pain and suffering are natural results of free-will.

This fact doesn't make me dis-believe in a loving God it makes me believe that somewhere, some way, some how God'slove, wisdom, compassion, power...etc. has a plan to deal with all those who cause suffering and those who suffer, especially the innocent. I may not and cannot understand it all here and now, but I believe at some point during "eternity"it will all be made "right".

Personalyy I believe Goddoes have a master plan to deal with eviland sin and did from the"beginning". I believe their is a time limitfor evil. I believe more is at stake than we know, I believe God was challenged by a free-will being on a higher "plane"and the scenario is playing out here on earth while the whole universe watches. It may appear that God is oblivious to the happenings herebut, imo, that is far from the truth. God's master plan to deal with"all this" will be as brilliant as the workings of the human body or the universe and all it contains

One other point, and this is not meant to be a"smart aleck" remark. I believe the question God would ask us is "What have we done to relieve the suffering of others? Even one person can make a difference...Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Harriet Tubbman....etc.

There is no god? Donno seems the only logical answer.

Because God can do whatever the hell He feels like doing?

Silverbond

lol

[QUOTE="Epic__Lulz"]

Seriously why is there even going to be a final battle ? couldn't god just wipe everyone out with a flick ?

WHY DOESN'T HE DO THAT NOW?

Silverbond

What does that have to do with anything?

Because God made earth his very own personal RTS.

There is no god? Donno seems the only logical answer.

htekemerald

Winner!

[QUOTE="Grodus5"]

I personally think he wants to leave humans to sort out their own problems, kind of the deal we broke when Eve ate the apple: stuff won't be given to us on a silver platter now, we have to earn it.

We have to earn life? I thought it was a "God-given" right in our (America's) Constitution to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Why shouldn't it be the right of starving children?

I don't remember breaking any deal either. Why didn't I get a chance in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve screwed up and now the rest of humanity has to pay for it?

Do they know that they are moving sideways or forward?

Theokhoth