So, someone from my church died....

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

And...?

Are condoms part of God's design?

zakkro

Yeah, but just like humans, thats not how it always was. Ever since sin was introduced into the world, every normal thing began to become perverted. Killing, lying, same sex couples, death. All abnormal things. Did you know there was no death before sin came into the world?

Yeah, but just like humans, thats not how it always was. Ever since sin was introduced into the world, every normal thing began to become perverted. Killing, lying, same sex couples, death. All abnormal things. Did you know there was no death before sin came into the world?freham2001

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="freham2001"] You are still missing it friend. I didnt say it was a human kind of greed; its not. And yeah god still has "feelings," just as any living being has. He can get angry, but he can also be pleased, and be saddened as well. You think God isnt looking down on the earth, watching the wars, the homosexuality, and killing and isnt saddened? I can picture Him sitting there, going "You're missing the point, guys." Now God doesnt get depressed, or any of that nonsense. God will be just fine, and honestly doesnt need us. But he still reaches out to the people of the earth saying "Hey, i love you and want to have a relationship with you, please come to me." Plain and simple. How many people do you know that dont need you at all, but would still give their life for you, just because? Probably none. Which is why it is amazing that God is even trying to reach out to us. But he is, and he is constantly pursuing us, and constantly loving us. freham2001

[QUOTE="freham2001"]Yeah, but just like humans, thats not how it always was. Ever since sin was introduced into the world, every normal thing began to become perverted. Killing, lying, same sex couples, death. All abnormal things. Did you know there was no death before sin came into the world?zakkro

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="freham2001"]Yeah, but just like humans, thats not how it always was. Ever since sin was introduced into the world, every normal thing began to become perverted. Killing, lying, same sex couples, death. All abnormal things. Did you know there was no death before sin came into the world?freham2001

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="zakkro"] I have heard that, yeah, but I don't follow scripture. zakkro

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Then there is no point in our discussion anymore. Because neither of us will listen to what the other says. freham2001

The bible doesn't recognize agnosticism or atheism

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Seems to me that the problem isn't that you don't believe God exist. But that you hate God. Which almost always leads to suppressing the truth of his existance through your unrighteousness till you supress it so much that your so far into the lie of him not existing... that you actually believe he doesn't exist.

You can hate God all you want, but is your eternity really worth it? Do you think your friend would be happy knowing that his death caused you to lose your faith in God?

Remember, God doesn't see death the same way we see death. Death is a mystery to us. Even to the most faithful believers, theres still that *what if* about death. But God actually knows what happens when you die so to him its just transfering your body from earth to heaven. You may see death as something horrible, but God has a purpose and reason for it.

Did your church pray for him to live? Or did they pray and say "If it is your (God's) will, then please let him live"?

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="zakkro"] I'll listen to what you have to say, but I do agree with you: this discussion won't really go anywhere. By the way, how old do you think the Earth is?zakkro

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Well i dont have a pin-point accurate guess, but i will tell you that i dont believe that it is as old as scientists say ;)freham2001

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="zakkro"]It really isn't a matter of belief...zakkro

I wasn't really that close to him, but indeed it is sad. But the point to this thread is about this:

Everyone in my church of course, prior to this, were all "praying" for this person and his family. That he'll make it through (his brain tumor sugery). Now that he'd gone, everyone is going to be like "it was gods decision" and all that. Everyone is going to be super sad, but still come to a rationalize that it was gods decision. Which is BS, because its something called LIFE. Anywho, there's also going to be that fraction of people that go "why did you take him from us god? We were all praying for him!". Recently I became agnostic, and came to a conclusion that there is no god.

But there is this tiny bit in me that feels guilty for not praying for him....

Rip Howard M.

lonewolf604

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Not in a logical sense, no. But to me it is. Would you think i was crazy if i told you i thought that scientists are partly wrong?freham2001

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Not in a logical sense, no. But to me it is. Would you think i was crazy if i told you i thought that scientists are partly wrong?freham2001

I'd have to agree that that's where it stops. Afterall, the bible is just a collection of older myths and stories that have been retold.

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Thats not what i meant. Im talking about sexual preference. Guys are supposed to like girls and vice versa. Thats how God designed it. Homosexuality is a human made perversion. freham2001

With all due respect, yes i can. You think im just making up everything that i believe in? Trust me, by nature im a very skeptical person. I have to have some solid ground to believe in what i do or else i wont bother with it. Everything i believe in, i have learned from our churches leaders and through experience over the past 8 years.

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="zakkro"] Depends on what evidence you have to provide. zakkro

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Not in a logical sense, no. But to me it is. Would you think i was crazy if i told you i thought that scientists are partly wrong?freham2001

everyone dies.

get used to it.

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="lonewolf604"] I don't believe that. Sure, maybe there a some people that choose to be gay but you can't totally believe that people choose to like the same sex.DrinkDuff

With all due respect, yes i can. You think im just making up everything that i believe in? Trust me, by nature im a very skeptical person. I have to have some solid ground to believe in what i do or else i wont bother with it. Everything i believe in, i have learned from our churches leaders and through experience over the past 8 years.

Well I became a christian without going to a building:| Church is just the body of believers, going to church is just how we gather, but we dont have to if that makes since. But right now I am going to go to church because there is no real other way of interacting effectively.

Anyways if you prayed for his suffering to end, then well god answered your prayer, if you prayed that he would not have cancer, well he doesnt, why are your complaining? I guess you wanted him to be alive, but rest assure that where he is at, is a lot more comfortable, just move on. If you ever get knocked down, get your self back up, and keep moving forward! I mean right now I have a D in one of my classes, but I know that all I got to do is just be more attentive, and do the work that I didnt do, and I will be fine.

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="lonewolf604"] I don't believe that. Sure, maybe there a some people that choose to be gay but you can't totally believe that people choose to like the same sex.DrinkDuff

With all due respect, yes i can. You think im just making up everything that i believe in? Trust me, by nature im a very skeptical person. I have to have some solid ground to believe in what i do or else i wont bother with it. Everything i believe in, i have learned from our churches leaders and through experience over the past 8 years.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="freham2001"]Being gay is a human made perversion that God specifically tells us not to do. He hates it because its not how he designed sexuality!freham2001

And...?

Are condoms part of God's design?

Human made perversions?

You mean like CLOTHES?

If God wanted us to wear fur and leather and cotton, even so much as to cover our "naughty parts", then why did he design us to be NAKED? I mean, surely he could have done the same thing that he did with the duck and the lizard, and given is retractable penises. After all, he's GOD.

Hey, if we're really gonna get all upset about "human made perversions", then why are Christians and Muslims so upset about seeing the ocasional female nipple on television? God didn't intend for us to wear FREAKING CLOTHES, and yet public nudity is frowned upon by the fundies and sometimes women resort to covering up their goddamn FACES.

Selective logic at work here. Sure, god even got mad at Adam and Eve when they became aware of their nakedness and shunned nudity out of shame. And yet people have the goddamn NERVE to say that homosexuality is a "sin" simply because same-sex copulation doesn't result in pregnancy?

Unnatural my butt. Look at goddamn CLOTHING the same way you look at homosexuality, and you'll see the selective hypocrisy inherent in the claim that gay sex is wrong simply because "it's not what god intended".

If God intended me to not walk around with my penis exposed all day long, then he would have made me like a duck and given me a retractable penis that only emerges from my body cavity when I am about to have sex.

If God wanted my penis to be covered up by fur, he would have designed a layer of fur to be present over my penis.

And if God intended people to only be able to live in climates in which people can survive without the added advantage of clothing, then why pick on the gays for "going against nature"? What about the people in goddamn Alaska who would ****ing FREEZE TO DEATH if they didn't rely on a "human made perversion" such as ****ing coats?

Again, the question of whether or not homosexuality is the result of choice is IRRELEVANT. The real question is WHY God gives a flying **** if you or I or my neighbor decides to engage in homosexuality. If we're talking about what's "natural" (and homosexuality is natural as many will attest to, but let's for the moment pretend that it isn't), then there are apparently a LOT of sinners out there.

Did God design us to be covered with fur coats?

Did God design us to be able to live in the goddamn arctic?

Did God design us to be able to fly, or to be able to communicate with people living thousands of miles away at the speed of light?

We're pretty SELECTIVE about what kinds of "perversions" we are willing to tolerate, aren't we?

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

And...?

Are condoms part of God's design?

MrGeezer

Human made perversions?

You mean like CLOTHES?

If God wanted us to wear fur and leather and cotton, even so much as to cover our "naughty parts", then why did he design us to be NAKED? I mean, surely he could have done the same thing that he did with the duck and the lizard, and given is retractable penises. After all, he's GOD.

Hey, if we're really gonna get all upset about "human made perversions", then why are Christians and Muslims so upset about seeing the ocasional female nipple on television? God didn't intend for us to wear FREAKING CLOTHES, and yet public nudity is frowned upon by the fundies and sometimes women resort to covering up their goddamn FACES.

Selective logic at work here. Sure, god even got mad at Adam and Eve when they became aware of their nakedness and shunned nudity out of shame. And yet people have the goddamn NERVE to say that homosexuality is a "sin" simply because same-sex copulation doesn't result in pregnancy?

Unnatural my butt. Look at goddamn CLOTHING the same way you look at homosexuality, and you'll see the selective hypocrisy inherent in the claim that gay sex is wrong simply because "it's not what god intended".

If God intended me to not walk around with my penis exposed all day long, then he would have made me like a duck and given me a retractable penis that only emerges from my body cavity when I am about to have sex.

If God wanted my penis to be covered up by fur, he would have designed a layer of fur to be present over my penis.

And if God intended people to only be able to live in climates in which people can survive without the added advantage of clothing, then why pick on the gays for "going against nature"? What about the people in goddamn Alaska who would ****ing FREEZE TO DEATH if they didn't rely on a "human made perversion" such as ****ing coats?

Again, the question of whether or not homosexuality is the result of choice is IRRELEVANT. The real question is WHY God gives a flying **** if you or I or my neighbor decides to engage in homosexuality. If we're talking about what's "natural" (and homosexuality is natural as many will attest to, but let's for the moment pretend that it isn't), then there are apparently a LOT of sinners out there.

Did God design us to be covered with fur coats?

Did God design us to be able to live in the goddamn arctic?

Did God design us to be able to fly, or to be able to communicate with people living thousands of miles away at the speed of light?

We're pretty SELECTIVE about what kinds of "perversions" we are willing to tolerate, aren't we?

What?? No, youre looking too much into my posts. Yeah, originally before sin entered the world, we were naked, and thats how it was meant to be. However, once sin WAS in the world, mankind realized they were naked and became shameful of it, which is why they set out to hunt and kill to get fur as clothing, which is actually the first time anything was killed in the old testament. Really. And where did you get the idea of clothes being a perversion? I never said that, and they're not. ANd you cant compare clothing to homosexuality. Totally not related. Yeah, neither of them were originally intended by GOd, but God didnt condemn clothing! I mean hey, when Jesus walked the earth he was wearing clothing wasnt he? Why would the incarnate of God wear something that he didnt believe to be right?

[QUOTE="freham2001"]So according to your logic: people dying = no god hmm................lonewolf604

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="freham2001"] Thats not what i meant. Im talking about sexual preference. Guys are supposed to like girls and vice versa. Thats how God designed it. Homosexuality is a human made perversion. freham2001

Human made perversions?

You mean like CLOTHES?

If God wanted us to wear fur and leather and cotton, even so much as to cover our "naughty parts", then why did he design us to be NAKED? I mean, surely he could have done the same thing that he did with the duck and the lizard, and given is retractable penises. After all, he's GOD.

Hey, if we're really gonna get all upset about "human made perversions", then why are Christians and Muslims so upset about seeing the ocasional female nipple on television? God didn't intend for us to wear FREAKING CLOTHES, and yet public nudity is frowned upon by the fundies and sometimes women resort to covering up their goddamn FACES.

Selective logic at work here. Sure, god even got mad at Adam and Eve when they became aware of their nakedness and shunned nudity out of shame. And yet people have the goddamn NERVE to say that homosexuality is a "sin" simply because same-sex copulation doesn't result in pregnancy?

Unnatural my butt. Look at goddamn CLOTHING the same way you look at homosexuality, and you'll see the selective hypocrisy inherent in the claim that gay sex is wrong simply because "it's not what god intended".

If God intended me to not walk around with my penis exposed all day long, then he would have made me like a duck and given me a retractable penis that only emerges from my body cavity when I am about to have sex.

If God wanted my penis to be covered up by fur, he would have designed a layer of fur to be present over my penis.

And if God intended people to only be able to live in climates in which people can survive without the added advantage of clothing, then why pick on the gays for "going against nature"? What about the people in goddamn Alaska who would ****ing FREEZE TO DEATH if they didn't rely on a "human made perversion" such as ****ing coats?

Again, the question of whether or not homosexuality is the result of choice is IRRELEVANT. The real question is WHY God gives a flying **** if you or I or my neighbor decides to engage in homosexuality. If we're talking about what's "natural" (and homosexuality is natural as many will attest to, but let's for the moment pretend that it isn't), then there are apparently a LOT of sinners out there.

Did God design us to be covered with fur coats?

Did God design us to be able to live in the goddamn arctic?

Did God design us to be able to fly, or to be able to communicate with people living thousands of miles away at the speed of light?

We're pretty SELECTIVE about what kinds of "perversions" we are willing to tolerate, aren't we?

"Yeah, that's TOTALLY different! I mean, I wear clothes! So it CAN'T be wrong!"

Do you know why the Bible condemns homosexuality but doesn't condemn clothes? Because the Bible was written by straight men who wore clothes.

It's all just hypocrisy.

[QUOTE="DrinkDuff"][QUOTE="freham2001"]

With all due respect, yes i can. You think im just making up everything that i believe in? Trust me, by nature im a very skeptical person. I have to have some solid ground to believe in what i do or else i wont bother with it. Everything i believe in, i have learned from our churches leaders and through experience over the past 8 years.

freham2001

The problem with society is that most people cannot accept that maybe we can't have all the answers to life and there will always be unknowns. Instead of this, many believe in two millennia old comforting dogma. Science is the salvation of Society and religion is counter progressive. Science presented a once radical new theory that the earth was not the center of the universe like the religious scholars claimed, and Christianity fought it to the ends of the earth, until it finally became common knowledge, and christianity adapted. Christianity now attacks the theory of evolution because it will be very hard to sell its teachings to the public if evolution (a contradiction to the story of creation) gains popularity. It will be really hard for Christianity to fit evolution in with the teachings of scripture, maybe even impossible, and this could lose them followers. Religion appeals to weak-minded, ignorant people who selfishly desire a compassionate creator, and quick and dirty answers to the mysteries of the universe.

I had a really good response to this but its all gone because the forum was down. :( It was really long but I'm not going to type it all over again so I am just going to say one thing.

The problem with society is that most people cannot accept that maybe we can't have all the answers to life and there will always be unknowns, and instead of realizing this we believe in two millennia old dogma. Science is the salvation of Society and religion is counter progressive. Science presented a once radical new theory that the earth was not the center of the universe like the religious scholars claimed, and Christianity fought it to the ends of the earth, until it finally became common knowledge, and christianity adapted. Christianity now attacks the theory of evolution because it will be very hard to sell its teachings to the public if evolution (a contradiction to the story of creation) gains popularity. It will be really hard for Christianity to fit evolution in with the teachings of scripture, maybe even impossible. Religion appeals to weak-minded, ignorant people who selfishly desire a compassionate creator, and quick and dirty answers to the mysteries of the universe.

DrinkDuff

Many non-theistic evolutionists argue there is no difference between a human and an animal. If this is the case then there is no such thing as progression as one creature is not more valuable than another. If humanity is not progressing then your argument fails as you have no standard in which to say what you believe is better than another. If humanity is not progressing then you have no argument for saying atheism is better than theism as a way of living. Everything would just be relative, including your opinion. If humanity is progressing then we are more superior than animals, thus abortion is to be immoral...

I wasn't really that close to him, but indeed it is sad. But the point to this thread is about this:

Everyone in my church of course, prior to this, were all "praying" for this person and his family. That he'll make it through (his brain tumor sugery). Now that he'd gone, everyone is going to be like "it was gods decision" and all that. Everyone is going to be super sad, but still come to a rationalize that it was gods decision. Which is BS, because its something called LIFE. Anywho, there's also going to be that fraction of people that go "why did you take him from us god? We were all praying for him!". Recently I became agnostic, and came to a conclusion that there is no god.

But there is this tiny bit in me that feels guilty for not praying for him....

Rip Howard M.

lonewolf604

Many non-theistic evolutionists argue there is no difference between a human and an animal.

mindstorm

That sentence is a total mind-**** anyway.

No difference between humans and WHICH animal? Cows? Scorpions? OTHER HUMANS?

In fact, now that I think about it, that's not a total mind-****, it's just a lack of understanding about taxonomy. If animals are diferrent enough to fit into DIFERRENT SPECIES, then yeah, there are obviously differences between them.

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"]

I wasn't really that close to him, but indeed it is sad. But the point to this thread is about this:

Everyone in my church of course, prior to this, were all "praying" for this person and his family. That he'll make it through (his brain tumor sugery). Now that he'd gone, everyone is going to be like "it was gods decision" and all that. Everyone is going to be super sad, but still come to a rationalize that it was gods decision. Which is BS, because its something called LIFE. Anywho, there's also going to be that fraction of people that go "why did you take him from us god? We were all praying for him!". Recently I became agnostic, and came to a conclusion that there is no god.

But there is this tiny bit in me that feels guilty for not praying for him....

Rip Howard M.

SonKev

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Many non-theistic evolutionists argue there is no difference between a human and an animal.

MrGeezer

That sentence is a total mind-**** anyway.

No difference between humans and WHICH animal? Cows? Scorpions? OTHER HUMANS?

In fact, now that I think about it, that's not a total mind-****, it's just a lack of understanding about taxonomy. If animals are diferrent enough to fit into DIFERRENT SPECIES, then yeah, there are obviously differences between them.

[QUOTE="SonKev"][QUOTE="lonewolf604"]

I wasn't really that close to him, but indeed it is sad. But the point to this thread is about this:

Everyone in my church of course, prior to this, were all "praying" for this person and his family. That he'll make it through (his brain tumor sugery). Now that he'd gone, everyone is going to be like "it was gods decision" and all that. Everyone is going to be super sad, but still come to a rationalize that it was gods decision. Which is BS, because its something called LIFE. Anywho, there's also going to be that fraction of people that go "why did you take him from us god? We were all praying for him!". Recently I became agnostic, and came to a conclusion that there is no god.

But there is this tiny bit in me that feels guilty for not praying for him....

Rip Howard M.

lonewolf604

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Many non-theistic evolutionists argue there is no difference between a human and an animal.

mindstorm

That sentence is a total mind-**** anyway.

No difference between humans and WHICH animal? Cows? Scorpions? OTHER HUMANS?

In fact, now that I think about it, that's not a total mind-****, it's just a lack of understanding about taxonomy. If animals are diferrent enough to fit into DIFERRENT SPECIES, then yeah, there are obviously differences between them.

Walk up to a female bear taking care of its newborn cubs, and ask her if she values humans more than bears.

Go slap a hornet nest while asking them if humans are of more value to them than baby hornets.

Bottom line is that the ONLY reason we consider humans to be the greatest and most valuable species alive is because WE ARE HUMANS.

And even then, most rational people tend to realize that we STILL aren't as valuable as things like the goddamn MOSQUITO, which help to form the basis of the food chain for a HELL of a lot of other species.

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="SonKev"] The answer isnt always gonna be yes, i believe people should realize, because of sin, we are all going to die sometime. You also need to remember, the moment you accept Jesus into your heart and change your life is the moment your eternal life begins; and with no end! Just because he passed away here just doesnt mean he is gone, but he is gone with our Father!! The best place I could ever imagine, he is in heaven now rejoicing with God. Just remember man, God loves you, he loved the guy who died at your church, we all have our time here, and we all have our time in heaven. Its his time for heaven, even if we dont understand the reasoning. God bless you lonewold604, ill be praying for ya man mindstorm

Walk up to a female bear taking care of its newborn cubs, and ask her if she values humans more than bears.

Go slap a hornet nest while asking them if humans are of more value to them than baby hornets.

Bottom line is that the ONLY reason we consider humans to be the greatest and most valuable species alive is because WE ARE HUMANS.

And even then, most rational people tend to realize that we STILL aren't as valuable as things like the goddamn MOSQUITO, which help to form the basis of the food chain for a HELL of a lot of other species.

MrGeezer

So then the only value we have as humans is the value we give ourselves? Don't you think you are a little biased and opinionated? I'm not talking about opinion but what atheistic evolution teaches to be true. I'm speaking about what "is" not what "ought."

Of course, I believe all of this to be nonsense as I believe our worth comes from God, not our own being.

Yeah, but see, I don't care about the bible. You are basing your argument on an article of FAITH. lonewolf604

Walk up to a female bear taking care of its newborn cubs, and ask her if she values humans more than bears.

Go slap a hornet nest while asking them if humans are of more value to them than baby hornets.

Bottom line is that the ONLY reason we consider humans to be the greatest and most valuable species alive is because WE ARE HUMANS.

And even then, most rational people tend to realize that we STILL aren't as valuable as things like the goddamn MOSQUITO, which help to form the basis of the food chain for a HELL of a lot of other species.

So then the only value we have as humans is the value we give ourselves? Don't you think you are a little biased and opinionated? I'm not talking about opinion but what atheistic evolution teaches to be true. I'm speaking about what "is" not what "ought."

Of course, I believe all of this to be nonsense as I believe our worth comes from God, not our own being.

Yeah, but see, I don't care about the bible. You are basing your argument on an article of FAITH. lonewolf604

my friend was born into this world with down syndrome, died of a blood clot, and it was unfortunate. makes more sense than, it was gods planlonewolf604

You argue evil in the world shows there is no God while I used the evidence to show there is a God. In summary, if there was no God, then how would we understand the concept of morality?

I'm sorry of you as well as your friend, but just because something horrible happened doesn't mean good cannot come out because of it. I'm not saying we can even understand it in this lifetime, but I firmly believe that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Rom. 8:28 )

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"] my friend was born into this world with down syndrome, died of a blood clot, and it was unfortunate. makes more sense than, it was gods planmindstorm

You argue evil in the world shows there is no God while I used the evidence to show there is a God. In summary, if there was no God, then how would we understand the concept of morality?

I'm sorry of you as well as your friend, but just because something horrible happened doesn't mean good cannot come out because of it. I'm not saying we can even understand it in this lifetime, but I firmly believe that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Rom. 8:28 )

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Walk up to a female bear taking care of its newborn cubs, and ask her if she values humans more than bears.

Go slap a hornet nest while asking them if humans are of more value to them than baby hornets.

Bottom line is that the ONLY reason we consider humans to be the greatest and most valuable species alive is because WE ARE HUMANS.

And even then, most rational people tend to realize that we STILL aren't as valuable as things like the goddamn MOSQUITO, which help to form the basis of the food chain for a HELL of a lot of other species.

mindstorm

So then the only value we have as humans is the value we give ourselves? Don't you think you are a little biased and opinionated? I'm not talking about opinion but what atheistic evolution teaches to be true. I'm speaking about what "is" not what "ought."

Yeah, I'm biased and opinionated in assigning us ANY value whatsoever. We're all just pieces of meat in the same way that money is just paper made from dead trees. And in the end, the universe doesn't give a flying fart about ANY living thing on this planet any more than a bear cares whether or not you feel pain as it is ripping your face off.

But in terms of economics, of course we have value. Even in terms of human socialization, we are a resource. We are valuable to flies because we are a resource to them. Large animals (such as humans) are a smorgasborg of food for flies, and maggots love to feed on our decaying fat and flesh. We are valuable to flies because wew provide them with something that they need.

Similarly, my best friends and family are valuable to me in an economic sense, because they are a resource to me. I desire assistance when I fall on hard times, I desire comfort when I am sad or lonely, and as a social animal I rely on acts of goodwill and generosity as a means of assuring myself that I am a valuable part of the community. Friends and family are a resource that help me to accomplish those personal needs. But again, that's more or less just in the economic sense. And a mint condition copy of Action Comics #1 might be worth $40,000 US dollars, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if the US dollar becomes essentially worthless. Paper with ink printed on it only has "value" so long as it can be traded for things like cars, jets, or food.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Walk up to a female bear taking care of its newborn cubs, and ask her if she values humans more than bears.

Go slap a hornet nest while asking them if humans are of more value to them than baby hornets.

Bottom line is that the ONLY reason we consider humans to be the greatest and most valuable species alive is because WE ARE HUMANS.

And even then, most rational people tend to realize that we STILL aren't as valuable as things like the goddamn MOSQUITO, which help to form the basis of the food chain for a HELL of a lot of other species.

MrGeezer

So then the only value we have as humans is the value we give ourselves? Don't you think you are a little biased and opinionated? I'm not talking about opinion but what atheistic evolution teaches to be true. I'm speaking about what "is" not what "ought."

Yeah, I'm biased and opinionated in assigning us ANY value whatsoever. We're all just pieces of meat in the same way that money is just paper made from dead trees. And in the end, the universe doesn't give a flying fart about ANY living thing on this planet any more than a bear cares whether or not you feel pain as it is ripping your face off.

But in terms of economics, of course we have value. Even in terms of human socialization, we are a resource. We are valuable to flies because we are a resource to them. Large animals (such as humans) are a smorgasborg of food for flies, and maggots love to feed on our decaying fat and flesh. We are valuable to flies because wew provide them with something that they need.

Similarly, my best friends and family are valuable to me in an economic sense, because they are a resource to me. I desire assistance when I fall on hard times, I desire comfort when I am sad or lonely, and as a social animal I rely on acts of goodwill and generosity as a means of assuring myself that I am a valuable part of the community. Friends and family are a resource that help me to accomplish those personal needs. But again, that's more or less just in the economic sense. And a mint condition copy of Action Comics #1 might be worth $40,000 US dollars, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if the US dollar becomes essentially worthless. Paper with ink printed on it only has "value" so long as it can be traded for things like cars, jets, or food.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"] my friend was born into this world with down syndrome, died of a blood clot, and it was unfortunate. makes more sense than, it was gods planlonewolf604

You argue evil in the world shows there is no God while I used the evidence to show there is a God. In summary, if there was no God, then how would we understand the concept of morality?

I'm sorry of you as well as your friend, but just because something horrible happened doesn't mean good cannot come out because of it. I'm not saying we can even understand it in this lifetime, but I firmly believe that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Rom. 8:28 )

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

So then the only value we have as humans is the value we give ourselves? Don't you think you are a little biased and opinionated? I'm not talking about opinion but what atheistic evolution teaches to be true. I'm speaking about what "is" not what "ought."

mindstorm

Yeah, I'm biased and opinionated in assigning us ANY value whatsoever. We're all just pieces of meat in the same way that money is just paper made from dead trees. And in the end, the universe doesn't give a flying fart about ANY living thing on this planet any more than a bear cares whether or not you feel pain as it is ripping your face off.

But in terms of economics, of course we have value. Even in terms of human socialization, we are a resource. We are valuable to flies because we are a resource to them. Large animals (such as humans) are a smorgasborg of food for flies, and maggots love to feed on our decaying fat and flesh. We are valuable to flies because wew provide them with something that they need.

Similarly, my best friends and family are valuable to me in an economic sense, because they are a resource to me. I desire assistance when I fall on hard times, I desire comfort when I am sad or lonely, and as a social animal I rely on acts of goodwill and generosity as a means of assuring myself that I am a valuable part of the community. Friends and family are a resource that help me to accomplish those personal needs. But again, that's more or less just in the economic sense. And a mint condition copy of Action Comics #1 might be worth $40,000 US dollars, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if the US dollar becomes essentially worthless. Paper with ink printed on it only has "value" so long as it can be traded for things like cars, jets, or food.

Let's say this...if there IS a God, and God somehow DOES have a plan for all of this, then the existance of the tooth fairy is more believable than the notion that God really gives a flying fart about two women having sex with each other.

If God has a plan for the UNIVERSE, chances are that WE don't have jack squat to do with it.

There MAY be a God, and he MAY have a vested interest in humanity if he even exists. But there ARE gays, gays ARE social organisms with the exact same emotional needs that I have, and social acceptance is an ENORMOUS fundamental human need that needs to be addressed. If following God is going to come in conflict with me accepting two guys just because they voluntarily love each other and have sex with each other, then I'll side with human compassion and understanding EVERY SINGLE TIME. God MAY be real, but gay love IS real. And if God wants me to vote against true love just because the lovers happen to both be dudes (or chicks), then I demand a REASON. Otherwise, I'm siding with the gays, and I don't give a rat's ass what God thinks about that. My parents explained stuff to me when I was confused. My teachers explained stuff to me when I was confused. I expect the same from God.

Let's say this...if there IS a God, and God somehow DOES have a plan for all of this, then the existance of the tooth fairy is more believable than the notion that God really gives a flying fart about two women having sex with each other. What if he is a personal God like the one in the Bible which actually cares about and is involved in his creation?

If God has a plan for the UNIVERSE, chances are that WE don't have jack squat to do with it. Then why would he create us in the first place?

There MAY be a God, and he MAY have a vested interest in humanity if he even exists. But there ARE gays, gays ARE social organisms with the exact same emotional needs that I have, I do not disagree in many ways but I believe God calls us to be holy. Even a person with homosexual tendencies can be used by God. and social acceptance is an ENORMOUS fundamental human need that needs to be addressed. A person does not have to be sexually active to be socially accepted. If following God is going to come in conflict with me accepting two guys just because they voluntarily love each other and have sex with each other, Maybe God expects people to at least seek to live by a standard he created... then I'll side with human compassion and understanding EVERY SINGLE TIME. So human emotion is better to follow than fact? Assuming God to be true of course. God MAY be real, but gay love IS real. I do not deny whether the emotion is there, I just do not support homosexual relationships morally. And if God wants me to vote against true love just because the lovers happen to both be dudes (or chicks), then I demand a REASON. Read Romans 1? How about the beginning of Genesis? Otherwise, I'm siding with the gays, and I don't give a rat's ass what God thinks about that. My parents explained stuff to me when I was confused. My teachers explained stuff to me when I was confused. I expect the same from God. What if he's using people like me to basicaly shout at you these issues. Not to mention the Bible.

MrGeezer

Let's say this...if there IS a God, and God somehow DOES have a plan for all of this, then the existance of the tooth fairy is more believable than the notion that God really gives a flying fart about two women having sex with each other. What if he is a personal God like the one in the Bible which actually cares about and is involved in his creation?

If God has a plan for the UNIVERSE, chances are that WE don't have jack squat to do with it. Then why would he create us in the first place?

There MAY be a God, and he MAY have a vested interest in humanity if he even exists. But there ARE gays, gays ARE social organisms with the exact same emotional needs that I have, I do not disagree in many ways but I believe God calls us to be holy. Even a person with homosexual tendencies can be used by God. and social acceptance is an ENORMOUS fundamental human need that needs to be addressed. A person does not have to be sexually active to be socially accepted. If following God is going to come in conflict with me accepting two guys just because they voluntarily love each other and have sex with each other, Maybe God expects people to at least seek to live by a standard he created... then I'll side with human compassion and understanding EVERY SINGLE TIME. So human emotion is better to follow than fact? Assuming God to be true of course. God MAY be real, but gay love IS real. I do not deny whether the emotion is there, I just do not support homosexual relationships morally. And if God wants me to vote against true love just because the lovers happen to both be dudes (or chicks), then I demand a REASON. Read Romans 1? How about the beginning of Genesis? Otherwise, I'm siding with the gays, and I don't give a rat's ass what God thinks about that. My parents explained stuff to me when I was confused. My teachers explained stuff to me when I was confused. I expect the same from God. What if he's using people like me to basicaly shout at you these issues. Not to mention the Bible.

Let's say this...if there IS a God, and God somehow DOES have a plan for all of this, then the existance of the tooth fairy is more believable than the notion that God really gives a flying fart about two women having sex with each other. What if he is a personal God like the one in the Bible which actually cares about and is involved in his creation?

If God has a plan for the UNIVERSE, chances are that WE don't have jack squat to do with it. Then why would he create us in the first place?

There MAY be a God, and he MAY have a vested interest in humanity if he even exists. But there ARE gays, gays ARE social organisms with the exact same emotional needs that I have, I do not disagree in many ways but I believe God calls us to be holy. Even a person with homosexual tendencies can be used by God. and social acceptance is an ENORMOUS fundamental human need that needs to be addressed. A person does not have to be sexually active to be socially accepted. If following God is going to come in conflict with me accepting two guys just because they voluntarily love each other and have sex with each other, Maybe God expects people to at least seek to live by a standard he created... then I'll side with human compassion and understanding EVERY SINGLE TIME. So human emotion is better to follow than fact? Assuming God to be true of course. God MAY be real, but gay love IS real. I do not deny whether the emotion is there, I just do not support homosexual relationships morally. And if God wants me to vote against true love just because the lovers happen to both be dudes (or chicks), then I demand a REASON. Read Romans 1? How about the beginning of Genesis? Otherwise, I'm siding with the gays, and I don't give a rat's ass what God thinks about that. My parents explained stuff to me when I was confused. My teachers explained stuff to me when I was confused. I expect the same from God. What if he's using people like me to basicaly shout at you these issues. Not to mention the Bible.