So, someone from my church died....

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Let's say this...if there IS a God, and God somehow DOES have a plan for all of this, then the existance of the tooth fairy is more believable than the notion that God really gives a flying fart about two women having sex with each other. What if he is a personal God like the one in the Bible which actually cares about and is involved in his creation?

If God has a plan for the UNIVERSE, chances are that WE don't have jack squat to do with it. Then why would he create us in the first place?

There MAY be a God, and he MAY have a vested interest in humanity if he even exists. But there ARE gays, gays ARE social organisms with the exact same emotional needs that I have, I do not disagree in many ways but I believe God calls us to be holy. Even a person with homosexual tendencies can be used by God. and social acceptance is an ENORMOUS fundamental human need that needs to be addressed. A person does not have to be sexually active to be socially accepted. If following God is going to come in conflict with me accepting two guys just because they voluntarily love each other and have sex with each other, Maybe God expects people to at least seek to live by a standard he created... then I'll side with human compassion and understanding EVERY SINGLE TIME. So human emotion is better to follow than fact? Assuming God to be true of course. God MAY be real, but gay love IS real. I do not deny whether the emotion is there, I just do not support homosexual relationships morally. And if God wants me to vote against true love just because the lovers happen to both be dudes (or chicks), then I demand a REASON. Read Romans 1? How about the beginning of Genesis? Otherwise, I'm siding with the gays, and I don't give a rat's ass what God thinks about that. My parents explained stuff to me when I was confused. My teachers explained stuff to me when I was confused. I expect the same from God. What if he's using people like me to basicaly shout at you these issues. Not to mention the Bible.

mindstorm

So can you sum all of that up and tell me WHY god supposedly hates homosexuality?

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]mindstorm

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Let's say this...if there IS a God, and God somehow DOES have a plan for all of this, then the existance of the tooth fairy is more believable than the notion that God really gives a flying fart about two women having sex with each other. What if he is a personal God like the one in the Bible which actually cares about and is involved in his creation?

If God has a plan for the UNIVERSE, chances are that WE don't have jack squat to do with it. Then why would he create us in the first place?

There MAY be a God, and he MAY have a vested interest in humanity if he even exists. But there ARE gays, gays ARE social organisms with the exact same emotional needs that I have, I do not disagree in many ways but I believe God calls us to be holy. Even a person with homosexual tendencies can be used by God. and social acceptance is an ENORMOUS fundamental human need that needs to be addressed. A person does not have to be sexually active to be socially accepted. If following God is going to come in conflict with me accepting two guys just because they voluntarily love each other and have sex with each other, Maybe God expects people to at least seek to live by a standard he created... then I'll side with human compassion and understanding EVERY SINGLE TIME. So human emotion is better to follow than fact? Assuming God to be true of course. God MAY be real, but gay love IS real. I do not deny whether the emotion is there, I just do not support homosexual relationships morally. And if God wants me to vote against true love just because the lovers happen to both be dudes (or chicks), then I demand a REASON. Read Romans 1? How about the beginning of Genesis? Otherwise, I'm siding with the gays, and I don't give a rat's ass what God thinks about that. My parents explained stuff to me when I was confused. My teachers explained stuff to me when I was confused. I expect the same from God. What if he's using people like me to basicaly shout at you these issues. Not to mention the Bible.

MrGeezer

So can you sum all of that up and tell me WHY god supposedly hates homosexuality?

First of all, if God is indeed God does he need to give a reason?

Second of all, I'm a firm believer that the family is an image of the nature of God. In Genesis 2:24 says the man and the woman "will become one flesh" through marriage. They are two persons but are to be considered the same being. The same things in many ways could be argued about the children being included as that verse also implies. In just the same way, God is multiple persons within the same being: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If this is true, then changing the relationship roles within genders and marriage is an attack at the very nature of God!

Third reason, God created the natural order to be a certain way and homosexuality is against that natural order. One can argue homosexuals are by nature homosexual. This argument may very well be true but I also have a sinful nature. This sinful nature is not an excuse for me to practice those behaviors however.

I suppose that was longer than a summary... but this includes some of my overarching reasons for why God dislikes homosexuality.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]mindstorm

So can you sum all of that up and tell me WHY god supposedly hates homosexuality?

First of all, if God is indeed God does he need to give a reason?

Second of all, I'm a firm believer that the family is an image of the nature of God. In Genesis 2:24 says the man and the woman "will become one flesh" through marriage. They are two persons but are to be considered the same being. The same things in many ways could be argued about the children being included as that verse also implies. In just the same way, God is multiple persons within the same being: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If this is true, then changing the relationship roles within genders and marriage is an attack at the very nature of God!

Um...that's a BIG ****ing non-sequitur. How do you go from "they are two persons but are considered to be the same being to saying "and if a dude ****s another dude, they are attacking GOD!"?

Third reason, God created the natural order to be a certain way and homosexuality is against that natural order. One can argue homosexuals are by nature homosexual. This argument may very well be true but I also have a sinful nature. This sinful nature is not an excuse for me to practice those behaviors however.

I suppose that was longer than a summary... but this includes some of my overarching reasons for why God dislikes homosexuality.

Ah, I see. Back to the "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina so two dudes is evil" argument. You STILL haven't explained WHAT makes homosexuality a SIN. Many agree that homosexuality IS indeed "natural". But even if we are to assume that it is NOT natural, is THAT the standard by which you determine what God intends and what God doesn't intend? If what's "unnatural" is a sin, then once again say goodbye to your condoms and your leather jackets.

Oh, but I forgot. It's alright for a man and a woman to whip out a condom and have sex for kicks, but god forbid that we let two gay women marry each other and then adopt a child to raise in a loving household. :roll:

Yeah, the same old homophobia that we've all seen numerous times. Somehow it's supposed to be better when it's GOD who's homophobic?

If anything, that just tells me that I shouldn't be worshipping that god.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

First of all, if God is indeed God does he need to give a reason?

Second of all, I'm a firm believer that the family is an image of the nature of God. In Genesis 2:24 says the man and the woman "will become one flesh" through marriage. They are two persons but are to be considered the same being. The same things in many ways could be argued about the children being included as that verse also implies. In just the same way, God is multiple persons within the same being: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If this is true, then changing the relationship roles within genders and marriage is an attack at the very nature of God!

Um...that's a BIG ****ing non-sequitur. How do you go from "they are two persons but are considered to be the same being to saying "and if a dude ****s another dude, they are attacking GOD!"?

Third reason, God created the natural order to be a certain way and homosexuality is against that natural order. One can argue homosexuals are by nature homosexual. This argument may very well be true but I also have a sinful nature. This sinful nature is not an excuse for me to practice those behaviors however.

I suppose that was longer than a summary... but this includes some of my overarching reasons for why God dislikes homosexuality.

Ah, I see. Back to the "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina so two dudes is evil" argument. You STILL haven't explained WHAT makes homosexuality a SIN. Many agree that homosexuality IS indeed "natural". But even if we are to assume that it is NOT natural, is THAT the standard by which you determine what God intends and what God doesn't intend? If what's "unnatural" is a sin, then once again say goodbye to your condoms and your leather jackets.

Oh, but I forgot. It's alright for a man and a woman to whip out a condom and have sex for kicks, but god forbid that we let two gay women marry each other and then adopt a child to raise in a loving household. :roll:

MrGeezer

Yeah, the same old homophobia that we've all seen numerous times. Somehow it's supposed to be better when it's GOD who's homophobic?

If anything, that just tells me that I shouldn't be worshipping that god.

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

I don't see how Christians can resolve the Euthyphro dilemma. If you except the natural law theory I don't see any reason to believe in God (except perhaps as a simple first cause).gobo212

[QUOTE="gobo212"]I don't see how Christians can resolve the Euthyphro dilemma. If you except the natural law theory I don't see any reason to believe in God (except perhaps as a simple first cause).mindstorm

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="DrinkDuff"]You don't go to church to learn learn. You go there to get indoctrinated. One source of "knowledge" is never solid ground. You've been brainwashed my friend. I'm sorry to have to say that, but the truth usually hurts. And interesting how you would mention that you are a skeptic by nature. I thought that by its design, the job of religion is to make anything natural unnecessary. God is the answer, right?DrinkDuff

The problem with society is that most people cannot accept that maybe we can't have all the answers to life and there will always be unknowns. Instead of this, many believe in two millennia old comforting dogma. Science is the salvation of Society and religion is counter progressive. Science presented a once radical new theory that the earth was not the center of the universe like the religious scholars claimed, and Christianity fought it to the ends of the earth, until it finally became common knowledge, and christianity adapted. Christianity now attacks the theory of evolution because it will be very hard to sell its teachings to the public if evolution (a contradiction to the story of creation) gains popularity. It will be really hard for Christianity to fit evolution in with the teachings of scripture, maybe even impossible, and this could lose them followers. Religion appeals to weak-minded, ignorant people who selfishly desire a compassionate creator, and quick and dirty answers to the mysteries of the universe.

Let me tell you something. I have spent 4 weeks living out of a tent 6 hours into freeking mexico in this little town in the middle of no where, serving the people and their children, and building a church. We had run ins with the mexican cops, which if you dont know are very unkind that far into mexico. The majority of them have machine guns on the backs of their cars nowdays. There were MANY instances where God either delivered us from a really bad situation, or helped pull the project together when it was going miserably. You think the mexican police just change their mind about stuff because they feel like it? Doesnt happen. I wouldnt have been out there serving those people if i wasnt darned sure there was a reason for it. I left everything behind except clothes and money, and went into a region where people are literally hurting for the truth. In america its easy to just sit behind a computer in your nice little house and pick a side and pretend like you know everything about it. You have NO idea what its like to live like them. Until youve experienced what i have you cannot say that there isnt a God. Because there is no way anything should have worked out down there. We had so many issues, yet it all came together. And trust me, it wasnt just putting in extra "elbow grease."

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

First of all, if God is indeed God does he need to give a reason?

Second of all, I'm a firm believer that the family is an image of the nature of God. In Genesis 2:24 says the man and the woman "will become one flesh" through marriage. They are two persons but are to be considered the same being. The same things in many ways could be argued about the children being included as that verse also implies. In just the same way, God is multiple persons within the same being: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If this is true, then changing the relationship roles within genders and marriage is an attack at the very nature of God!

Um...that's a BIG ****ing non-sequitur. How do you go from "they are two persons but are considered to be the same being to saying "and if a dude ****s another dude, they are attacking GOD!"?

Third reason, God created the natural order to be a certain way and homosexuality is against that natural order. One can argue homosexuals are by nature homosexual. This argument may very well be true but I also have a sinful nature. This sinful nature is not an excuse for me to practice those behaviors however.

I suppose that was longer than a summary... but this includes some of my overarching reasons for why God dislikes homosexuality.

Ah, I see. Back to the "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina so two dudes is evil" argument. You STILL haven't explained WHAT makes homosexuality a SIN. Many agree that homosexuality IS indeed "natural". But even if we are to assume that it is NOT natural, is THAT the standard by which you determine what God intends and what God doesn't intend? If what's "unnatural" is a sin, then once again say goodbye to your condoms and your leather jackets.

Oh, but I forgot. It's alright for a man and a woman to whip out a condom and have sex for kicks, but god forbid that we let two gay women marry each other and then adopt a child to raise in a loving household. :roll:

mindstorm

Yeah, the same old homophobia that we've all seen numerous times. Somehow it's supposed to be better when it's GOD who's homophobic?

If anything, that just tells me that I shouldn't be worshipping that god.

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

mindstorm

Would you vote to make premarital sex illegal?

And God has to explain himself because he is competing with OTHER GODS. There are plenty of other religions people can choose from, and people can just not believe in any gods at all. If god actually CARES whether or not people follow him, then he's gonna have to address what people want. Imagine if a prophet started up a new religion today, and it was an AWESOME religion except for one thing: it says that blacks are devils and must be destroyed. That would be so inconceivable and downright reprehensible to today's world that the religion would never catch on with anyone.

Same thing with any religion. If you encounter a religion that is simply morally repugnant in your eyes, you simply don't follow it. You either go with another religion or don't have a religion at all.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

MrGeezer

Would you vote to make premarital sex illegal? Ideally yes. I'd think this to actually do more harm than good as it'd simply increase the divorce rates. I therefore think it would not be the wisest decision in the present culture.

And God has to explain himself because he is competing with OTHER GODS. Or demons as scripture calls them... There are plenty of other religions people can choose from, and people can just not believe in any gods at all. If god actually CARES whether or not people follow him, then he's gonna have to address what people want. Imagine if a prophet started up a new religion today, and it was an AWESOME religion except for one thing: it says that blacks are devils and must be destroyed. That would be so inconceivable and downright reprehensible to today's world that the religion would never catch on with anyone. God's intention is not to "make people happy"......

Same thing with any religion. If you encounter a religion that is simply morally repugnant in your eyes, you simply don't follow it. You either go with another religion or don't have a religion at all. I do not follow my faith because I simply like what it says... neither should anyone else. You follow God if you think he is true not because he can bless you...

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

mindstorm

Would you vote to make premarital sex illegal? Ideally yes. I'd think this to actually do more harm than good as it'd simply increase the divorce rates. I therefore think it would not be the wisest decision in the present culture.

And God has to explain himself because he is competing with OTHER GODS. Or demons as scripture calls them... There are plenty of other religions people can choose from, and people can just not believe in any gods at all. If god actually CARES whether or not people follow him, then he's gonna have to address what people want. Imagine if a prophet started up a new religion today, and it was an AWESOME religion except for one thing: it says that blacks are devils and must be destroyed. That would be so inconceivable and downright reprehensible to today's world that the religion would never catch on with anyone. God's intention is not to "make people happy"......

Same thing with any religion. If you encounter a religion that is simply morally repugnant in your eyes, you simply don't follow it. You either go with another religion or don't have a religion at all. I do not follow my faith because I simply like what it says... neither should anyone else. You follow God if you think he is true not because he can bless you...

And to anyone who actually believes that a just and good god would consider gays to be an abomination, that says more about how they feel about gays than it says about how god feels about gays.

A person who reads about how gays are evil and then says to themselves "yeah, that sounds about right" is ALREADY predisposed to bigotry. Otherwise there'd be no possible way they could look at that and think that it's true.

I wasn't really that close to him, but indeed it is sad. But the point to this thread is about this:

Everyone in my church of course, prior to this, were all "praying" for this person and his family. That he'll make it through (his brain tumor sugery). Now that he'd gone, everyone is going to be like "it was gods decision" and all that. Everyone is going to be super sad, but still come to a rationalize that it was gods decision. Which is BS, because its something called LIFE. Anywho, there's also going to be that fraction of people that go "why did you take him from us god? We were all praying for him!". Recently I became agnostic, and came to a conclusion that there is no god.

But there is this tiny bit in me that feels guilty for not praying for him....

Rip Howard M.

lonewolf604

God isn't some imaginary white bearded man that is angry at "his" people. Saying "him/his/he" when referring to God is just examplifying the stronghold of men, the control that men have over the world. Why can't God be "she/her etc"? In this little innocent loyalty we hold so dear to God, do we also put down women by acknowledging that a man is in control of things and always will be since God is everlasting and that he makes decisions for us.

BS

We humans are in control of our own destiny. My path that I walk in life is made through me and the decisions I make or made to make my life what it is today. It's not God's decision, it isn't some path God set for me. IMO, those kind of people take responsibility from themselves and say it's all on God, it's what "he" wanted for me.

Apart from that, people will say God gave us free will, but then they go and say that God made this or that happen as a path for me. That doesn't sound so "free of life" as well as it doesn't sound so "free of mind" if you're juggling back and forth between whether we are people of free will or just sheep walking a pre-determined path.

I believe they will accept it is a way of life while not being sad because hes in heaven. Tjeremiah1988

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

Would you vote to make premarital sex illegal?

And God has to explain himself because he is competing with OTHER GODS. There are plenty of other religions people can choose from, and people can just not believe in any gods at all. If god actually CARES whether or not people follow him, then he's gonna have to address what people want. Imagine if a prophet started up a new religion today, and it was an AWESOME religion except for one thing: it says that blacks are devils and must be destroyed. That would be so inconceivable and downright reprehensible to today's world that the religion would never catch on with anyone.

Same thing with any religion. If you encounter a religion that is simply morally repugnant in your eyes, you simply don't follow it. You either go with another religion or don't have a religion at all.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

First of all, I do not claim homosexual practices to be any more than another sin like premarital sex. I do not support either.

Second of all, why does God have to explain himself in the first place? Should I also not follow God because I wish he had given me a different color of eyes? Should I not follow God simply because I do not like something about the way he "runs the show"? Does my approval stop him from being God?

I do not follow God because he is what I want him to be, I follow him because he is God.

freham2001

Would you vote to make premarital sex illegal?

And God has to explain himself because he is competing with OTHER GODS. There are plenty of other religions people can choose from, and people can just not believe in any gods at all. If god actually CARES whether or not people follow him, then he's gonna have to address what people want. Imagine if a prophet started up a new religion today, and it was an AWESOME religion except for one thing: it says that blacks are devils and must be destroyed. That would be so inconceivable and downright reprehensible to today's world that the religion would never catch on with anyone.

Same thing with any religion. If you encounter a religion that is simply morally repugnant in your eyes, you simply don't follow it. You either go with another religion or don't have a religion at all.

Sort of like the people blowing up abortion clinics and flying airplanes into buildings?

The second your religion starts promoting human misery, you ABSOLUTELY ought to start questioning your god.

The thing is these "sacrifices" often involve the religion making INNOCENT PEOPLE sacrifice what they hold dear. If you want to sacrifice YOUR life to god, then go ahead. But you become a public danger the second you start making OTHER people sacrifice their lives, their happiness, and their freedoms for the sake of YOUR beliefs. Your attitude is EXACTLY the attitude of people who walk out into crowded markets with bombs strapped to their chests.

[QUOTE="freham2001"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Would you vote to make premarital sex illegal?

And God has to explain himself because he is competing with OTHER GODS. There are plenty of other religions people can choose from, and people can just not believe in any gods at all. If god actually CARES whether or not people follow him, then he's gonna have to address what people want. Imagine if a prophet started up a new religion today, and it was an AWESOME religion except for one thing: it says that blacks are devils and must be destroyed. That would be so inconceivable and downright reprehensible to today's world that the religion would never catch on with anyone.

Same thing with any religion. If you encounter a religion that is simply morally repugnant in your eyes, you simply don't follow it. You either go with another religion or don't have a religion at all.

MrGeezer

Sort of like the people blowing up abortion clinics and flying airplanes into buildings?

The second your religion starts promoting human misery, you ABSOLUTELY ought to start questioning your god.

The thing is these "sacrifices" often involve the religion making INNOCENT PEOPLE sacrifice what they hold dear. If you want to sacrifice YOUR life to god, then go ahead. But you become a public danger the second you start making OTHER people sacrifice their lives, their happiness, and their freedoms for the sake of YOUR beliefs. Your attitude is EXACTLY the attitude of people who walk out into crowded markets with bombs strapped to their chests.

No, thats not even close to what i was talking about. Especially considering suicide goes against christianity. Im talking about sacrificing our behavior, attitude and thoughts. And yeah sometimes material stuff as well, it just depends on what YOU need to do to be closer to God. So you think people that sacrifice to Christianity arent HAPPY or FREE? I'll tell you im a lot more free than the average person. I dont have to worry about the stresses of every day life, because no matter what horrible crap comes up i can trust in God, and that no matter how bad things are, they will be ok. I dont worry about money, jobs, stress, my future, whatever it is you name it. I dont have to worry about it because i can talk to God and know that he has plans to prosper me and not to harm me.

No, thats not even close to what i was talking about. Especially considering suicide goes against christianity. Im talking about sacrificing our behavior, attitude and thoughts. And yeah sometimes material stuff as well, it just depends on what YOU need to do to be closer to God. So you think people that sacrifice to Christianity arent HAPPY or FREE? I'll tell you im a lot more free than the average person. I dont have to worry about the stresses of every day life, because no matter what horrible crap comes up i can trust in God, and that no matter how bad things are, they will be ok. I dont worry about money, jobs, stress, my future, whatever it is you name it. I dont have to worry about it because i can talk to God and know that he has plans to prosper me and not to harm me.

freham2001

No, we were talking about oppression born out of religion. The type of mentality it takes for people to persecute gays simply because their religious texts promote bigotry.

No, thats not even close to what i was talking about. Especially considering suicide goes against christianity. Im talking about sacrificing our behavior, attitude and thoughts. And yeah sometimes material stuff as well, it just depends on what YOU need to do to be closer to God. So you think people that sacrifice to Christianity arent HAPPY or FREE? I'll tell you im a lot more free than the average person. I dont have to worry about the stresses of every day life, because no matter what horrible crap comes up i can trust in God, and that no matter how bad things are, they will be ok. I dont worry about money, jobs, stress, my future, whatever it is you name it. I dont have to worry about it because i can talk to God and know that he has plans to prosper me and not to harm me.

No, we were talking about oppression born out of religion. The type of mentality it takes for people to persecute gays simply because their religious texts promote bigotry.