U.S. bugged EU offices.

[QUOTE="HyperWarlock"]

Would be cool to see an all out war between the EU and USA. No nukes allowed, just ground assaults and dogfights

whipassmt

The UK would side with the US, they are America's closest allies. 

But that is the very nature of intelligence gathering. Despite the platitudes and political grandstanding, intelligence gathering between nations is inherently asymmetrical. It may not be strictly a zero-sum game, however intelligence leaks tend to diminish in proportion to a nation's intelligence gathering capability. Gathering intelligence on foreign nations and even foreign nationals is not alarming or even surprising. What is alarming as of late is the news that agencies of the executive branch have been spying on American citizens without judicial or constitutional justification.PRNPmutagen_PrP

I don't think I contradicted that, ore ven discussed it. The point I am making is that in any discussion on necessity of "spying" activity, we are told that it isn't a big deal until it happens to us. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we're bugging EU offices. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we get information from EU and Russian versions of Snowden. It is a big deal though, I keep hearing, that Snowden himself leaked information.

I realize it's a strange game that is being played, and that it doesn't always follow logical dictates, but being a logical human being myself, I can't pretend that those arguing the side that says our spying is good but Snowden's is bad are making anything like a logical case on the matter. Snowden is no worse than the rest of them. If it's all a matter of perspective, then I might even say he's better than the rest of them because of the fact that he exposed this issue to the American public, making him more a "spy for the people" rather than a spy for a specific Government. It's something I think we have a right to know. I love America, but I'm not a drone: can't just shoot fire at Snowden for being oh so terrible while simultaneously pretending it's ok because "everyone's doing it".

[QUOTE="PRNPmutagen_PrP"]But that is the very nature of intelligence gathering. Despite the platitudes and political grandstanding, intelligence gathering between nations is inherently asymmetrical. It may not be strictly a zero-sum game, however intelligence leaks tend to diminish in proportion to a nation's intelligence gathering capability. Gathering intelligence on foreign nations and even foreign nationals is not alarming or even surprising. What is alarming as of late is the news that agencies of the executive branch have been spying on American citizens without judicial or constitutional justification.m0zart

I don't think I contradicted that, ore ven discussed it. The point I am making is that in any discussion on necessity of "spying" activity, we are told that it isn't a big deal until it happens to us. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we're bugging EU offices. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we get information from EU and Russian versions of Snowden. It is a big deal though, I keep hearing, that Snowden himself leaked information.

I realize it's a strange game that is being played, and that it doesn't always follow logical dictates, but being a logical human being myself, I can't pretend that those arguing the side that says our spying is good but Snowden's is bad are making anything like a logical case on the matter. Snowden is no worse than the rest of them. If it's all a matter of perspective, then I might even say he's better than the rest of them because of the fact that he exposed this issue to the American public, making him more a "spy for the people" rather than a spy for a specific Government. It's something I think we have a right to know. I love America, but I'm not a drone: can't just shoot fire at Snowden for being oh so terrible while simultaneously pretending it's ok because "everyone's doing it".

It says a lot that by the Genva Convention, any country is allowed to execute spies as soon as they're caught. No one really likes them (unless they're James Bond or Michael Westen), but they are a "necessary evil" in a world where you don't tell anyone everything... not even your closest allies.

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

OrkHammer007

He isn't accused of treason here. He's accused of spying.

In any case, I don't consider him a traitor. I think he did us a favor, and I hope he finds a safe harbor. I realize you don't agree, but nothing you've said has come even remotely close to changing my mind on the subject... so far.

[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="PRNPmutagen_PrP"]But that is the very nature of intelligence gathering. Despite the platitudes and political grandstanding, intelligence gathering between nations is inherently asymmetrical. It may not be strictly a zero-sum game, however intelligence leaks tend to diminish in proportion to a nation's intelligence gathering capability. Gathering intelligence on foreign nations and even foreign nationals is not alarming or even surprising. What is alarming as of late is the news that agencies of the executive branch have been spying on American citizens without judicial or constitutional justification.OrkHammer007

I don't think I contradicted that, ore ven discussed it. The point I am making is that in any discussion on necessity of "spying" activity, we are told that it isn't a big deal until it happens to us. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we're bugging EU offices. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we get information from EU and Russian versions of Snowden. It is a big deal though, I keep hearing, that Snowden himself leaked information.

I realize it's a strange game that is being played, and that it doesn't always follow logical dictates, but being a logical human being myself, I can't pretend that those arguing the side that says our spying is good but Snowden's is bad are making anything like a logical case on the matter. Snowden is no worse than the rest of them. If it's all a matter of perspective, then I might even say he's better than the rest of them because of the fact that he exposed this issue to the American public, making him more a "spy for the people" rather than a spy for a specific Government. It's something I think we have a right to know. I love America, but I'm not a drone: can't just shoot fire at Snowden for being oh so terrible while simultaneously pretending it's ok because "everyone's doing it".

It says a lot that by the Genva Convention, any country is allowed to execute spies as soon as they're caught. No one really likes them (unless they're James Bond or Michael Westen), but they are a "necessary evil" in a world where you don't tell anyone everything... not even your closest allies.

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

[QUOTE="OrkHammer007"]

[QUOTE="m0zart"]

I don't think I contradicted that, ore ven discussed it. The point I am making is that in any discussion on necessity of "spying" activity, we are told that it isn't a big deal until it happens to us. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we're bugging EU offices. It isn't a big deal, I keep hearing, that we get information from EU and Russian versions of Snowden. It is a big deal though, I keep hearing, that Snowden himself leaked information.

I realize it's a strange game that is being played, and that it doesn't always follow logical dictates, but being a logical human being myself, I can't pretend that those arguing the side that says our spying is good but Snowden's is bad are making anything like a logical case on the matter. Snowden is no worse than the rest of them. If it's all a matter of perspective, then I might even say he's better than the rest of them because of the fact that he exposed this issue to the American public, making him more a "spy for the people" rather than a spy for a specific Government. It's something I think we have a right to know. I love America, but I'm not a drone: can't just shoot fire at Snowden for being oh so terrible while simultaneously pretending it's ok because "everyone's doing it".

thebest31406

It says a lot that by the Genva Convention, any country is allowed to execute spies as soon as they're caught. No one really likes them (unless they're James Bond or Michael Westen), but they are a "necessary evil" in a world where you don't tell anyone everything... not even your closest allies.

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="OrkHammer007"]As far as I can tell, no one is saying any spying is good. "It's happening" is what I'm seeing.

It says a lot that by the Genva Convention, any country is allowed to execute spies as soon as they're caught. No one really likes them (unless they're James Bond or Michael Westen), but they are a "necessary evil" in a world where you don't tell anyone everything... not even your closest allies.

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

OrkHammer007

[QUOTE="OrkHammer007"]

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

m0zart

He isn't accused of treason here. He's accused of spying.

In any case, I don't consider him a traitor. I think he did us a favor, and I hope he finds a safe harbor. I realize you don't agree, but nothing you've said has come even remotely close to changing my mind on the subject... so far.

The definition of a traitor, by the Constitution, is one who gives "aid and comfort" to an enemy. By announcing to everyone in the world that the NSA was eavesdropping on phone calls and e-mails, he effectively gave aid to terror plotters like al Qaeda, who are enemies of the US.

I'm in no way condoning what the NSA did. The illegal search and seizure of phone records, in addition to the violation of the concept of "innocent until proven guity by a jury," are absolutely appalling abuses of power on their part.

I'm not condoning Snowden's methods at all, however. He has damaged our ability to gather intelligence on terrorists (even if it failed at the Boson Marathon), damaged international diplomatic relations, and he continues to hold the lives of operatives and their families hostage. He's a traitor, and a coward.

[QUOTE="OrkHammer007"]

[QUOTE="thebest31406"] Nothing like that is within the Geneva Conventions.thebest31406

[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="OrkHammer007"]

Snowden isn't bad because he's a spy. He's bad because he's a traitor, and if there's anything worse than a spy in the espionage world, it's a traitor.

OrkHammer007

He isn't accused of treason here. He's accused of spying.

In any case, I don't consider him a traitor. I think he did us a favor, and I hope he finds a safe harbor. I realize you don't agree, but nothing you've said has come even remotely close to changing my mind on the subject... so far.

The definition of a traitor, by the Constitution, is one who gives "aid and comfort" to an enemy. By announcing to everyone in the world that the NSA was eavesdropping on phone calls and e-mails, he effectively gave aid to terror plotters like al Qaeda, who are enemies of the US.

I don't hold blind allegiance to my country, so I could care less what definitions he fits that they've drummed up. The Constitution can be a great documetn at times, and a completely stupid one at others. I am thankful someone had the courage to make their activities public, regardless of what it says about that.

Again, I only hope he can find safe harbor.

Snowden is on the people's side. I understand why tptb consider him a "traitor", but f*ck em. MrPraline

[QUOTE="PRNPmutagen_PrP"]But that is the very nature of intelligence gathering. Despite the platitudes and political grandstanding, intelligence gathering between nations is inherently asymmetrical. It may not be strictly a zero-sum game, however intelligence leaks tend to diminish in proportion to a nation's intelligence gathering capability. Gathering intelligence on foreign nations and even foreign nationals is not alarming or even surprising. What is alarming as of late is the news that agencies of the executive branch have been spying on American citizens without judicial or constitutional justification.m0zart

I realize it's a strange game that is being played, and that it doesn't always follow logical dictates, but being a logical human being myself, I can't pretend that those arguing the side that says our spying is good but Snowden's is bad are making anything like a logical case on the matter. Snowden is no worse than the rest of them. If it's all a matter of perspective, then I might even say he's better than the rest of them because of the fact that he exposed this issue to the American public, making him more a "spy for the people" rather than a spy for a specific Government. It's something I think we have a right to know. I love America, but I'm not a drone: can't just shoot fire at Snowden for being oh so terrible while simultaneously pretending it's ok because "everyone's doing it".

[QUOTE="MrPraline"]Snowden is on the people's side. I understand why tptb consider him a "traitor", but f*ck em. whipassmt

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"]Snowden is on the people's side. I understand why tptb consider him a "traitor", but f*ck em. MrPraline

That said, I do not believe that Snowden should be prosecuted since he is not a traitor, but a patriot.PRNPmutagen_PrP

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

The_Lipscomb

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="whipassmt"]"tptb"?

whipassmt

[QUOTE="The_Lipscomb"]

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

MrPraline

[QUOTE="PRNPmutagen_PrP"]That said, I do not believe that Snowden should be prosecuted since he is not a traitor, but a patriot.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="The_Lipscomb"]

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

MrPraline

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"]The powers that be. MrPraline

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="The_Lipscomb"]

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="PRNPmutagen_PrP"]That said, I do not believe that Snowden should be prosecuted since he is not a traitor, but a patriot.whipassmt

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="The_Lipscomb"]

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

The_Lipscomb

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I don't either...but I can think of ways to deal with him.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="The_Lipscomb"]

I think this Snowden dude is pretty funny. I hope he keeps getting the opportunity to release classified U.S intelligence.. Always nice to see the U.S government panicking and annoyed. They deserve it with no help from any other country :lol:

MrPraline

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] oh. Thanks for answering.

whipassmt

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] waterboarding?The_Lipscomb

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] always : >MrPraline

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I don't either...but I can think of ways to deal with him.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] Ha. What do you think about the EU being spied on?The_Lipscomb

That said, I do not believe that Snowden should be prosecuted since he is not a traitor, but a patriot.PRNPmutagen_PrP

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] waterboarding?

whipassmt

you know, praline puts up the hardened, cynical front, but behind it he's probably the biggest wide-eyed idealist up in hyurrAbbeten

Again you're falling back on platitudes and fallacious reasoning to come to the conclusion that if something is good for the goose, then it is good for the gander.PRNPmutagen_PrP

Not at all. I actually don't care if it is good for the Government or not. Given just how easy it is for any Government to abuse its power, it is precisely a Government I have the most concern about in snooping on me ... not less than I would any given individual or organization, but much much more. I really do consider a Government to be the most dangerous of necessities. In order to reign in that danger, I think major uncompromising limitations must be placed upon it.

Acting stealthily and spying against the ENTIRE population is not a reigning in of those powers that need reigned in, but an outward expansion that shows no sign of stopping when unchallenged. Sometimes it goes on growing simply because it is in fact stealthy, and debates rage on forever about whether it is occuring at all... with most folks unaware and unwaveringly trusting that their Government isn't doing these attrocious things to them.

But now, without any need for debate or controversy, we KNOW it's happening. We have one person to thank for that really, Snowden. He put himself at great risk to make that happen. So I thank him. I hope he's able to find a good life somewhere out of reach of our 800 lb. gorilla.