What are your feelings on the role of drugs in society?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I don't see how the amount of time it's been in society matters. Seems like a weak way to justify a double standard.

Alcohol is a drug too. Why do you keep refering to drugs as if its in aseperate category from alchohol? It's not.

People are not bringing in alchohol to say that drugs are not harmful. All people are saying is that the unwillingness to include alchoholin substances that should be illegal is a double standard and hyprocritical. Not to mention that it's intellectually dishonest.

And if you say that alchohol is regulated quite a bit, then why can't pot be treated the same way? Legal, but heavily regulated?

GreySeal9

Alot of things have been in society a long time. That doesn't mean that they are exempt from the possibility of being made illegal. It's a weak way to justify a double standard.

Also, why do you keeping avoiding my questions.

Again, using specific qualities of pot, why can't it be treated the way alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Illegal drugs are not safe. That includes marijuana. There is a host of medical problems that can occur....LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That's the only argument I ever see in these threads.

LJS9502_basic

There is nothing wrong with comparing the degree of harm of something that one wants to be legal with relative to another thing that is illegal.

I'd like to hear one reason as to why that is either fallicious or intellectually dishonest.

It's not about clouding the issue. I said it's used as a comparison. Comparisons are valid.

When dealing with people's personal freedoms, there needs to be a good reason against limiting that freedom.

What such argument exists for pot that doesn't exist for alchohol?

Why, specifically, can't pot be treated in a similar fashion to alchohol, legal, but with no restrictions?

Not once in this thread have you given a specific argument against keeping pot illegal. Perhaps you can start now.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Of course it matters. It's a part of society. And frankly there is no determent to having a glass or two a day. It's the abuse that becomes the problem.

LJS9502_basic

Alot of things have been in society a long time. That doesn't mean that they are exempt from the possibility of being made illegal. It's a weak way to justify a double standard.

Also, why do you keeping avoiding my questions.

Again, using specific qualities of pot, why can't it be treated the way alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

You do not get to define what this thread is about. You also don't get to define how the argument works. The TC never said that alchohol can't be mentioned and used as a comparison. There's no rule saying that it can't be used a comparison. You are just abritrarily saying it can't to hide your double standards.

I didn't bash alchohol once. I'm just being honest about its categorization, unlike you.

I asked a specific question: Why can't pot be treated in the same way that alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Alot of things have been in society a long time. That doesn't mean that they are exempt from the possibility of being made illegal. It's a weak way to justify a double standard.

Also, why do you keeping avoiding my questions.

Again, using specific qualities of pot, why can't it be treated the way alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

GreySeal9

You do not get to define what this thread is about. You also don't get to define how the argument works. The TC never said that alchohol can't be mentioned and used as a comparison. There's no rule saying that it can't be used a comparison. You are just abritrarily saying it can't to hide your double standards.

I didn't bash alchohol once. I'm just being honest about its categorization, unlike you.

I asked a specific question: Why can't pot be treated in the same way that alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] But again, your making your argument for the legalization of pot not on pot's merits but on the detractions of alcohol.sonicare

Things can be compared. These substances don't exist in a vaccum.

I'm saying that pot should be legal because it does not cause enough harm that keeping it illegal is justified. There is nothing wrong with comparing it to alchohol to show its degree of harm relative to something that is legal.

Can you give me any good specific reasonas to why alchohol can't be used as a comparison?

Nobody said anything about any kind of deregulation of anything.

I didn't say that marijunana should be legalized simply on the basis of being safer than alchohol. The argument is: marijuana should be legal because it doesn't past the threshold of what's harmful enough to be legal. Alchohol is simply brought in to show that there are more harmful things that have been deemed to not pass the same threshold. It's more about defining the threshold.

I'll say it again: Dismissing the alchohol comparisons is about sweeping an intellectually dishonest double standard under the rug.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]This thread is not about alcohol. I answered a question. And you have NOT given me any reason to change my mind. Bashing alcohol is not going to elevate marijuana to anyone that is against it's legalization. If anything it reinforces we shouldn't legalize any more drugs. THAT'S how that argument works.LJS9502_basic

You do not get to define what this thread is about. You also don't get to define how the argument works. The TC never said that alchohol can't be mentioned and used as a comparison. There's no rule saying that it can't be used a comparison. You are just abritrarily saying it can't to hide your double standards.

I didn't bash alchohol once. I'm just being honest about its categorization, unlike you.

I asked a specific question: Why can't pot be treated in the same way that alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

This doesn't even make any sense as I've never enumerated alchohol's bad qualities nor did I give an opinion on it. Can you show me a quote where I said it is the big evil or even implied that.If you can't find one, will you have the intellectually honesty to retract that strawman?

If substances that effects thebrain should be illegal, based on the fact that they alter the brain, how can you justify not making alchohol illegal as well? Since things that create highs are so detrimental to society?

And again, why can't pot be treated the same way as alchohol, legal, but with restrictions? What's the problem with that?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]And it's not safer. It has a host of health concerns. That does not translate to safer.LJS9502_basic

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Things can be compared. These substances don't exist in a vaccum.

I'm saying that pot should be legal because it does not cause enough harm that keeping it illegal is justified. There is nothing wrong with comparing it to alchohol to show its degree of harm relative to something that is legal.

Can you give me any good specific reasonas to why alchohol can't be used as a comparison?

Nobody said anything about any kind of deregulation of anything.

I didn't say that marijunana should be legalized simply on the basis of being safer than alchohol. The argument is: marijuana should be legal because it doesn't past the threshold of what's harmful enough to be legal. Alchohol is simply brought in to show that there are more harmful things that have been deemed to not pass the same threshold. It's more about defining the threshold.

I'll say it again: Dismissing the alchohol comparisons is about sweeping an intellectually dishonest double standard under the rug.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]And it's not safer. It has a host of health concerns. That does not translate to safer.LJS9502_basic

Your anecdotal evidence is not relevant in a debate. He is taking about documented cases, not LJ-witnessed cases.

Also, speaking of comparisons, how do you justify bringing in the water comparison when you acted like using alchohol as a comparison to pot was such a no no? Isn't this thread not about water?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] I'm not saying pot should be illegal. But I'm saying that "well it's not as bad as alcohol" should not be its reason for legalization. That's not a valid reason - ever- for the legalization of anything. We have lots of prescription drugs that are much safer than aspirin. Should we deregulate all those medicines just because they're not as dangerous as aspirin?sonicare

Nobody said anything about any kind of deregulation of anything.

I didn't say that marijunana should be legalized simply on the basis of being safer than alchohol. The argument is: marijuana should be legal because it doesn't past the threshold of what's harmful enough to be legal. Alchohol is simply brought in to show that there are more harmful things that have been deemed to not pass the same threshold. It's more about defining the threshold.

I'll say it again: Dismissing the alchohol comparisons is about sweeping an intellectually dishonest double standard under the rug.

Just because alchohol is not an argument for legilization of pot does not it can't be used to exposed hyprocrisy and double standards in a debate. Also, the way alchohol is treated by the law can be used to propose a way in which pot can be treated by the law.

There is no reason to have this debate in a vacuum. That's ridiculous.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

You do not get to define what this thread is about. You also don't get to define how the argument works. The TC never said that alchohol can't be mentioned and used as a comparison. There's no rule saying that it can't be used a comparison. You are just abritrarily saying it can't to hide your double standards.

I didn't bash alchohol once. I'm just being honest about its categorization, unlike you.

I asked a specific question: Why can't pot be treated in the same way that alchohol is, legal, but with restrictions?

GreySeal9

This doesn't even make any sense as I've never enumerated alchohol's bad qualities nor did I give an opinion on it. Can you show me a quote where I said it is the big evil or even implied that.If you can't find one, will you have the intellectually honesty to retract that strawman?

If substances that effects thebrain should be illegal, based on the fact that they alter the brain, how can you justify not making alchohol illegal as well? Since things that create highs are so detrimental to society?

And again, why can't pot be treated the same way as alchohol, legal, but with restrictions? What's the problem with that?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]And it's not safer. It has a host of health concerns. That does not translate to safer.LJS9502_basic

And you are right that I am focusing on abuse, and that abuse is never a good thing no matter what. So what's so horrible about marijuana use in moderation?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] It is safer. For starters it's less addictive than alcohol. And tens of thousands of people die every single year because of alcohol. In the history of mankind there is not one documented death that can be attributed to marijuana use. There are very clear links connecting alcohol to liver and cardiovascular diseases, among other things. No such links have been conclusively found with marijuana. Colin1192

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Howeve the TC asked what we though of drugs. I answered. I'm not concerned with your opinion on alcohol. But for about the THIRD time...I'll tell you that since alcohol is the big evil...we should as a society DEFINITELY NOT legalize another substance that affects the brain...ie creates a high. Your argument has convinced me. Legalization would be the worst thing we could do as a society. Congratulations.:)

LJS9502_basic

This doesn't even make any sense as I've never enumerated alchohol's bad qualities nor did I give an opinion on it. Can you show me a quote where I said it is the big evil or even implied that.If you can't find one, will you have the intellectually honesty to retract that strawman?

If substances that effects thebrain should be illegal, based on the fact that they alter the brain, how can you justify not making alchohol illegal as well? Since things that create highs are so detrimental to society?

And again, why can't pot be treated the same way as alchohol, legal, but with restrictions? What's the problem with that?

Alchohol has issues, but not enough to deny people the right to use it with regulations. Pot has issues, but not enough to deny people the right to use it with regulations.

Is there any issue you have with this?

Andwhy is it about not legalizing any more drugs. If things that can create a high are so detrimental, why not illegalize ALL drugs?

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually addictive depends on the individual. I know people that can't be without their weed. That's not a casual use. I know people that can take or leave alcohol. No addiction. I've known people to graduate to other drugs because weed wasn't doing it for them anymore. I've known people that have been in car accidents due to smoking weed. Does abuse of alcohol hurt people? Yes. Does alcohol properly used hurt people? No. So you are comparing abuse in alcohol. Abuse is never good. In anything. Drinking too much water can kill you. Are you planning on legislating against that? Plus, some alcohol does indeed have health benefits if not abused, Weed....does not.LJS9502_basic

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

Can you provide links to those cases?

Some people are more prone to addiction than others, but some substances are more addictive than others, and alcohol is a more addictive substance than marijauna is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Addictive_potential). In really no way, shape or form can the case be made that alcohol is safer for you than marijuana. The only thing it has going for it is that in moderate doses it might improve one's cardiovascular health, but alcohol's not legal for its potential cardiovascualr benefits.

And you are right that I am focusing on abuse, and that abuse is never a good thing no matter what. So what's so horrible about marijuana use in moderation?

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] It is safer. For starters it's less addictive than alcohol. And tens of thousands of people die every single year because of alcohol. In the history of mankind there is not one documented death that can be attributed to marijuana use. There are very clear links connecting alcohol to liver and cardiovascular diseases, among other things. No such links have been conclusively found with marijuana. Colin1192

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

This is a disingenuous argument. Milk is not a drug in any way shape or form.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Colin1192"]

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

GreySeal9

Can you provide links to those cases?

I'm saying that all you are doing is giving an argument why alcohol should be illegal as opposed to why marijuana should be legal.

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually addictive depends on the individual. I know people that can't be without their weed. That's not a casual use. I know people that can take or leave alcohol. No addiction. I've known people to graduate to other drugs because weed wasn't doing it for them anymore. I've known people that have been in car accidents due to smoking weed. Does abuse of alcohol hurt people? Yes. Does alcohol properly used hurt people? No. So you are comparing abuse in alcohol. Abuse is never good. In anything. Drinking too much water can kill you. Are you planning on legislating against that? Plus, some alcohol does indeed have health benefits if not abused, Weed....does not.GreySeal9

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

This is a disingenuous argument. Milk is not a drug in any way shape or form.

thats the point. Doing marijuana doesnt increase your chance of doing other drugs. marijuana is not a gateway drug.

I'm saying that all you are doing is giving an argument why alcohol should be illegal as opposed to why marijuana should be legal.

sonicare

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Except that I know cases that contradict those statements. Oh it's not what advocates like to hear. But it does happen and it's disingenuous to say it doesn't.LJS9502_basic

Can you provide links to those cases?

What I am saying is can you provide cases that are documented or links that will show peer reviewed information.

I actually don't agree with everything he said as I just shot down one of his points, but the majority of people are not going to accept anecdotal evidence. You seem tostill think that it is valid for some reason.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

Colin1192

This is a disingenuous argument. Milk is not a drug in any way shape or form.

thats the point. Doing marijuana doesnt increase your chance of doing other drugs. marijuana is not a gateway drug.

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually addictive depends on the individual. I know people that can't be without their weed. That's not a casual use. I know people that can take or leave alcohol. No addiction. I've known people to graduate to other drugs because weed wasn't doing it for them anymore. I've known people that have been in car accidents due to smoking weed. Does abuse of alcohol hurt people? Yes. Does alcohol properly used hurt people? No. So you are comparing abuse in alcohol. Abuse is never good. In anything. Drinking too much water can kill you. Are you planning on legislating against that? Plus, some alcohol does indeed have health benefits if not abused, Weed....does not.LJS9502_basic

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

Studies have supported this

I'm saying that all you are doing is giving an argument why alcohol should be illegal as opposed to why marijuana should be legal.

sonicare

That is not true. It has clearly been said that marijuana is not legal because it is relatively unharmful. Alchohol is just used to bolster the argument. It is not the primary reason. You just keeping spinning it into the primary reason.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Can you provide links to those cases?

GreySeal9

What I am saying is can you provide cases that are documented or links that will show peer reviewed information.

I actually don't agree with everything he said as I just shot down one of his points, but the majority of people are not going to accept anecdotal evidence. You seem tostill think that it is valid for some reason.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Colin1192"]

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

Colin1192

Studies have supported this

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

I'm saying that all you are doing is giving an argument why alcohol should be illegal as opposed to why marijuana should be legal.

LJS9502_basic

That is not the argument. Why do you keep engaging in strawmen.

The argument is that marijunana is not harmful enough that people's right to smoke it within reason should be limited.

The argument is not based on alchohol and saying it is is dishonest. Alchohol is simply brought in to expose the hyprocisy and double standards on the other side of the argument and to establish a relative standard of harm.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Colin1192"]

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

Colin1192

Studies have supported this

This is a proof surrogate fallacy.

Saying that studies support your statements are no substitute for the actual studies.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

- weed is not as addictive as alcohol.

- Weed is not a gateway drug. That is like saying that drinking milk will cause you to drink alcohol.

-weed when used in moderation would not hurt anyone either

-weed has way more health benefits than alcohol

Colin1192

This is a disingenuous argument. Milk is not a drug in any way shape or form.

thats the point. Doing marijuana doesnt increase your chance of doing other drugs. marijuana is not a gateway drug.

The gateway drug concept is based on marijuana and other drugs being drugs.

Milk is not a drug. It is not a valid comparison.

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Except that I know cases that contradict those statements. Oh it's not what advocates like to hear. But it does happen and it's disingenuous to say it doesn't.GreySeal9

Studies have supported this

This is a proof surrogate fallacy.

Saying that studies support your statements are no substitute for the actual studies.

so what you are saying is I should get some links?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Sure stop by and I'll let you meet them. That was a rather odd thing to say by the by. What I've encountered is what I've just written here. You don't need a link. If I created a web site and linked you to it but wrote the same thing would that make it better for you to discuss? However, I'm sure if you don't read the pro marijuana sites then you'll see the not so positive spin put on weed.LJS9502_basic

What I am saying is can you provide cases that are documented or links that will show peer reviewed information.

I actually don't agree with everything he said as I just shot down one of his points, but the majority of people are not going to accept anecdotal evidence. You seem tostill think that it is valid for some reason.

You talk about all this evidence yet you never bring it into the debate or mention any of it when asked to show why weed is harmful enough to justify its illegal status. Why not mention some of it? It wouldn't strengthen your argument.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Colin1192"]

Studies have supported this

Colin1192

This is a proof surrogate fallacy.

Saying that studies support your statements are no substitute for the actual studies.

so what you are saying is I should get some links?

Yes.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Some people are more prone to addiction than others, but some substances are more addictive than others, and alcohol is a more addictive substance than marijauna is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Addictive_potential). In really no way, shape or form can the case be made that alcohol is safer for you than marijuana. The only thing it has going for it is that in moderate doses it might improve one's cardiovascular health, but alcohol's not legal for its potential cardiovascualr benefits.

And you are right that I am focusing on abuse, and that abuse is never a good thing no matter what. So what's so horrible about marijuana use in moderation?

LJS9502_basic

Milk is not a drug. It is not a valid comparison.GreySeal9

Would caffeine be a valid comparison?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]Milk is not a drug. It is not a valid comparison.Jazz_Fan

Would caffeine be a valid comparison?

I think thatwould be a reasonable comparison.

Milk is not a drug. It is not a valid comparison.GreySeal9

its not meant to be a valid comparison. it is meant to be a ridiculous comparison because to compare marijuana to other drugs is rather ridiculous

Study by Pitt.http://scienceblog.com/12116/study-says-marijuana-no-gateway-drug/

http://www.naturalnews.com/029780_marijuana_cancer.html. but i dont know if this would qualify as "pro weed" because its natural News

http://www.nowpublic.com/thc_marijuana_helps_cure_cancer_says_harvard_study. Harvard doesnt really know much though

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Except that I know cases that contradict those statements. Oh it's not what advocates like to hear. But it does happen and it's disingenuous to say it doesn't.LJS9502_basic

Can you provide links to those cases?

this is the internet, if you are going to state something as a fact, we need a little more then "my friends have tried it and it ended bad for them" we need actual links that we can read

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sonicare"]

I'm saying that all you are doing is giving an argument why alcohol should be illegal as opposed to why marijuana should be legal.

GreySeal9

That is not the argument. Why do you keep engaging in strawmen.

The argument is that marijunana is not harmful enough that people's right to smoke it within reason should be limited.

The argument is not based on alchohol and saying it is is dishonest. Alchohol is simply brought in to expose the hyprocisy and double standards on the other side of the argument and to establish a relative standard of harm.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Can you provide links to those cases?

legend26

this is the internet, if you are going to state something as a fact, we need a little more then "my friends have tried it and it ended bad for them" we need actual links that we can read

Why would you want cocain, when flour makes you look just as cool?

=D

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Again...that is the only argument ever given in these threads. I've asked advocates to give me good reasons to legalize it. But they only tell me how bad alcohol is as if that makes it worth legalizing another drug. It rather puts me off the whole legalization thing. But they don't follow that so I have a pounding headache and I'm going to bed. LJS9502_basic

That is not the argument. Why do you keep engaging in strawmen.

The argument is that marijunana is not harmful enough that people's right to smoke it within reason should be limited.

The argument is not based on alchohol and saying it is is dishonest. Alchohol is simply brought in to expose the hyprocisy and double standards on the other side of the argument and to establish a relative standard of harm.