Why do some people think being a h0mosexual, is a choice?

[QUOTE="majwill24"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Well I wouldn't exactly call procreation an "imperative"; it's something that's necessary for a species at large not to go extinct, but that doesn't exactly translate into a prerogative of some sort for each individual member of that species. I have no real plans to have children, and I don't see anything wrong with that that requires correction.

xaos

You seem to be coming from an emotional angle. I guess you dont like the idea of homosexuality not being considered the biological norm? Perhaps you think it fuels hatred and bias? that talk of a treatment only encourages such thinking? Well thats a political and societal problem.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]Because Im really good friends with a girl who says she's homosexual because she wants to be :|Teenaged

Many times a gay person might even say "its my choice" but there is usually context to this (either existent or easily guessed)

Such as:

"Its my choice, leave me alone"

"Its none of your business, its my choice so stop talking"

Obviously those are just two examples of how we people spout words that others shouldnt take at face value.

take it for what its worth.

[QUOTE="gamedude2020"]

I don't think it is, but im not, so I don't really know. It definitely isn't for everyone, but maybefor a few

majwill24

I think the confusion arises from homosexual activity that sometimes develops in close quarters occupied by the same sex, like prisons

Because Im really good friends with a girl who says she's homosexual because she wants to be :|JPOBS

[QUOTE="smchacko"]

i think it's a choice because it is possible to completely remove sexual desire completely

Franklinstein

Removing sexual desire doesn't win the argument for one side or the other.

Edit: Let's be logical about this.

If I want an orange, really badly. I'm going to go to the store and buy an orange.
But say, on the way to the buy the orange, I ate fifteen apples. I'm not hungry anymore, I'm not going to go buy an orange, even though that's what I wanted... my hunger(sexual desire) is gone, so I don't want the orange(same sex/opposite sex) anymore. It doesn't prove that I didn't want that orange the whole time because I was born to, or because I was reared to believe oranges were better than apples. It just means that my desire for sustanance is gone.

no, satisfying a desire is not the same as uprooting the desire.

in your example you eat fifteen apples to satisfy your current desire temporarily, which is not the same as overcoming your desire for the orange

there's a good example I read where someone is asked "when a flame goes out, which direction does it go.. .north south east or west?" and the response is that the flame is no longer there, but it doesen't go anywhere, it just ceases

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]Because Im really good friends with a girl who says she's homosexual because she wants to be :|JPOBS

Many times a gay person might even say "its my choice" but there is usually context to this (either existent or easily guessed)

Such as:

"Its my choice, leave me alone"

"Its none of your business, its my choice so stop talking"

Obviously those are just two examples of how we people spout words that others shouldnt take at face value.

take it for what its worth.

If it's a choice, then why is anyone gay at all? Homosexuals are killed and abused all over the world because society doesn't accept them for who they are.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]Because Im really good friends with a girl who says she's homosexual because she wants to be :|JPOBS

Many times a gay person might even say "its my choice" but there is usually context to this (either existent or easily guessed)

Such as:

"Its my choice, leave me alone"

"Its none of your business, its my choice so stop talking"

Obviously those are just two examples of how we people spout words that others shouldnt take at face value.

When I am talking about "attitude" I am referring to the need many homosexual people feel to defend themselves for who they are. Many times the only responses you will get are those that make the "problem" (as is rendered for gay people by the environment) appear as something you have no say over (you as in every other person that might converse with a homosexual person), and one very easy way is exactly this.

Personally I can relate to that and thats why I persist on this. I dont know if I would respond like your friend (one reason is because I would want to avoid creating the impression your friend created to you).

Anyway it is complex (now that sounded like a cop-out :P) but I cant really prove it or anything.

[QUOTE="Ring_of_fire"] what, in short, were the reason of her "choosing" to be gay JPOBS

Indeed, perhaps a more conscious realisation of something creates the impression of choice even to the one who experiences it.

But regardless, the stuff you mentioned that your friend told you that were the reasons she is homosexual arent choices. At best they are impulsive reactions to emotions.

Besides especially the "girls are sexually more pleasing" sounds pretty impulsive and not choice-material to me.

Furthermore even I could describe the reasons I am a homosexual like she did: I find guys more pleasing sexually, more attractive, I find vaginas disgusting etc. But I know I didnt choose to have those emotions.

Me thinks your friend is herself confusing the "choice" to be a homosexual with the choice to act upon it.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Many times a gay person might even say "its my choice" but there is usually context to this (either existent or easily guessed)

Such as:

"Its my choice, leave me alone"

"Its none of your business, its my choice so stop talking"

Obviously those are just two examples of how we people spout words that others shouldnt take at face value.

Teenaged

When I am talking about "attitude" I am referring to the need many homosexual people feel to defend themselves for who they are. Many times the only responses you will get are those that make the "problem" (as is rendered for gay people by the environment) appear as something you have no say over (you as in every other person that might converse with a homosexual person), and one very easy way is exactly this.

Personally I can relate to that and thats why I persist on this. I dont know if I would respond like your friend (one reason is because I would want to avoid creating the impression your friend created to you).

Anyway it is complex (now that sounded like a cop-out :P) but I cant really prove it or anything.

[QUOTE="majwill24"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Well I wouldn't exactly call procreation an "imperative"; it's something that's necessary for a species at large not to go extinct, but that doesn't exactly translate into a prerogative of some sort for each individual member of that species. I have no real plans to have children, and I don't see anything wrong with that that requires correction.

GabuEx

You seem to be coming from an emotional angle. I guess you dont like the idea of homosexuality not being considered the biological norm? Perhaps you think it fuels hatred and bias? that talk of a treatment only encourages such thinking? Well thats a political and societal problem.

What?

I don't understand how one could read my post and then make this reply; I don't see any relevance at all...

Because you put the choice a heterosexual person not wanting to have children as being on the same level as homosexuality.

It doesnt make sense. Your choice to make the decision doesnt require correction because opinions change all the time. Free will

I highly doubt a person goes gay and then decide later that they dont like being gay and wants to be straight. Because I dont believe homosexuality is a choice, the biological deviation has made the choice that you can easily make more difficult for gays, nearly impossible if it werent for modern technology.

Its all about settings. Sure in todays world it easy to say homosexuality is fine and dandy and technology has overcome the barrier to have children, but that doesnt change the fact for hundreds of thousands of years that deviation is counter to the natural way of things.

EDIT: wow this must be a sensitive subject. I step out for a bit and I'm already behind

Furthermore even I could describe the reasons I am a homosexual like she did: I find guys more pleasing sexually, more attractive, I find vaginas disgusting etc. But I know I didnt choose to have those emotions.Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]Just to set context, we were having a very frank, candid conversation about her sexuality because she's a very open person. I'll save you the details, but the point im getting at is, her reasoning for why she chooses to be homosexual made sense (tho i disagreed) and from gaining such knowledge from her, I know fully believe that in some cases, being homseuxal is a personal choice. take it for what its worth. JPOBS

When I am talking about "attitude" I am referring to the need many homosexual people feel to defend themselves for who they are. Many times the only responses you will get are those that make the "problem" (as is rendered for gay people by the environment) appear as something you have no say over (you as in every other person that might converse with a homosexual person), and one very easy way is exactly this.

Personally I can relate to that and thats why I persist on this. I dont know if I would respond like your friend (one reason is because I would want to avoid creating the impression your friend created to you).

Anyway it is complex (now that sounded like a cop-out :P) but I cant really prove it or anything.

I am another gay person and I am sharing my view through my own experiences of homosexuality. I think I can relate more than you can and could provide with some insight you would need, before of course you decide to not care only when your faulty perception are attempted to be invalidated.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Furthermore even I could describe the reasons I am a homosexual like she did: I find guys more pleasing sexually, more attractive, I find vaginas disgusting etc. But I know I didnt choose to have those emotions.Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Furthermore even I could describe the reasons I am a homosexual like she did: I find guys more pleasing sexually, more attractive, I find vaginas disgusting etc. But I know I didnt choose to have those emotions.Vandalvideo

I never said that my explanation applies in 100% of the cases but that it is a very valid and plausible scenario to consider before concluding that its a choice.

Meh, I honestly dont care that much. I'll take personal experience over the opinions of a bunch of pseudo-psychiatrists on OTJPOBS

Personal experience is well and good if there is no physical evidence contradicting it, but in this case there is - namely, the existence of clear cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex. It seems rather more likely to me that, if she is indeed homosexual, that what you describe is more a discovery and an acceptance of what she already was, not some sort of "choice" where she just woke up one day and was like, "You know what? I'm gonna be gay now." Bad relationships with guys (which, incidentally, may very well have to do with the fact that she was gay in the first place) do not make heterosexual women suddenly find other women sexually appealing.

Um I am not posing as a pseudo-psychiatrist and neither did I tell you to take my word for it 100%. You have reasoning skills; you read what I write and judge and not just dismiss it because I post on OT or because I may conveniently fall under the OT show-offs description.

I am another gay person and I am sharing my view through my own experiences of homosexuality. I think I can relate more than you can and could provide with some insight you would need, before of course you decide to not care only when your faulty perception are attempted to be invalidated.

Teenaged

Its not as if you can just show me scientific evidence that verifies how/why a person actually becomes gay such information does not exist. No one on earth can explain 100% fully how the process of being homosexual becomes reality. as such all you can do is share your own opinion on the matter, and I have read and understood everything you've said.

That said, Im frankly ust a little taken aback that so many people are so confident that being gay cant in some cases be choice, and even moreso that you've gone as far as to say i have "faulty perceptions" when and all you people do is sit in circles and try to theory craft about the topic because nothing concrete can be proven either way.

Anyway, dont be offended by my previous comments. I feel like im in a religious thread this is stupid. anyway, this is my last post in the topic likely

Well for people in the bisexual margin it is:P

It's pretty damn obvious that your race and gender are not choices, however sexuality is far less obvious. I lean towards it not being a choice though.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]Meh, I honestly dont care that much. I'll take personal experience over the opinions of a bunch of pseudo-psychiatrists on OTGabuEx

Personal experience is well and good if there is no physical evidence contradicting it, but in this case there is - namely, the existence of clear cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex. It seems rather more likely to me that, if she is indeed homosexual, that what you describe is more a discovery and an acceptance of what she already was, not some sort of "choice" where she just woke up one day and was like, "You know what? I'm gonna be gay now." Bad relationships with guys (which, incidentally, may very well have to do with the fact that she was gay in the first place) do not make heterosexual women suddenly find other women sexually appealing.

^this seems most likely imo^, also didnt you say she didnt like the smell of men? that could also be a factor of evidence that she may well have already been homosexual, the fact that she wasnt attracted by the male hormones being emitted.

also what i want to know is does she prefer females because she is sexualy attracted to them or simply because she prefers sex with females. there is a difference.

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="majwill24"]

You seem to be coming from an emotional angle. I guess you dont like the idea of homosexuality not being considered the biological norm? Perhaps you think it fuels hatred and bias? that talk of a treatment only encourages such thinking? Well thats a political and societal problem.

Animatronic64

Because his response when against reason. since I dont think he is stupid person, i assumed that emotions were affecting his judgment.

[QUOTE="Animatronic64"][QUOTE="xaos"] So your notions automatically are completely logical and unemotional? Hrm...majwill24

Because his response when against reason. since I dont think he is stupid person, i assumed that emotions were affecting his judgment.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Um I am not posing as a pseudo-psychiatrist and neither did I tell you to take my word for it 100%. You have reasoning skills; you read what I write and judge and not just dismiss it because I post on OT or because I may conveniently fall under the OT show-offs description.

I am another gay person and I am sharing my view through my own experiences of homosexuality. I think I can relate more than you can and could provide with some insight you would need, before of course you decide to not care only when your faulty perception are attempted to be invalidated.

JPOBS

Because Im really good friends with a girl who says she's homosexual because she wants to be

I dont see any mention of possibility; more like a certainty. That is a faulty perception - when it is absolute. I'll take it was just a careless wording.

We "theory craft" not based on nothing but on personal experiences, being able to relate etc. I dont know about you but if I tried to understand another persons problem/condition/worries I would like to hear from someone who has the same problem/condition/worries etc. Of course like I already said, not to take everything that person says for a fact but as useful information.

The fact that you baptise my explanation as theory crafting tells me that you didnt draw your conclusion now, but had already decided from when you heard your friend's reasoning.

Anyone who disagrees is wrong.iamdisappointed

[QUOTE="majwill24"]

[QUOTE="Animatronic64"]Yeah, I'm not seeing the relevance in his post. Animatronic64

Because his response when against reason. since I dont think he is stupid person, i assumed that emotions were affecting his judgment.

Stating his choice to not have children is not on the same level as the lack of choice of someone being homosexual.

Hes equating his choice not to have children with someone being homosexual. So no correction is needed, as there is no deviation from the natural law of reproducing a species :?

[QUOTE="iamdisappointed"]Anyone who disagrees is wrong.The_Weird_Guy

[QUOTE="iamdisappointed"]Anyone who disagrees is wrong.The_Weird_Guy

[QUOTE="The_Weird_Guy"][QUOTE="iamdisappointed"]Anyone who disagrees is wrong.Animatronic64

Because they're ignorant.scorch-62

[QUOTE="Animatronic64"][QUOTE="The_Weird_Guy"] That is the definition of ignorance.The_Weird_Guy

This thread is crap. As Gabu said, it can't be a choice because of physical differences in the brain among homosexuals - humans do not have the power to wilfully and fundamentally alter their brain's anatomy. Simple as that. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.iamdisappointed

Well the confusion is because of so much conflicting information.

Do you realize that concept of a female and male brain is rejected in academia. Any suggestions that men think differently because of their brains is considered sexist.

Also, the phenomenon of homosexuality taking place in close, single sex quarters adds to the confusion. Did the man in prison who never was attracted to men, suddenly developed the urge to engage in sexual activity because of 30 years of confinement? And as time went on, why did his perceptions change so much that his desire to have sex has morphed into actual attraction?

Do these cases demonstrate Homosexuality can learned or conditioned behavior?

I personally dont think its a choice, but occurrences of such anomalies tell me that more research is needed. the sad truth is, despite all the advance in our knowledge of the human body, the brain is still a mystery to us

If You see how much trouble some homosexual people have, especially in middle eastern countries where they glue them closed and let them walk till they die, then You should understand it is at least not always a choice.

20% of animals of a species is homosexual if possible. And i think 15% shy... can't remember that one for sure.

BTW that is for people who think it is not natural or a weakness.

[QUOTE="iamdisappointed"]This thread is crap. As Gabu said, it can't be a choice because of physical differences in the brain among homosexuals - humans do not have the power to wilfully and fundamentally alter their brain's anatomy. Simple as that. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.majwill24

Well the confusion is because of so much conflicting information.

Do you realize that concept of a female and male brain is rejected in academia. Any suggestions that men think differently because of their brains is considered sexist.

Also, the phenomenon of homosexuality taking place in close, single sex quarters adds to the confusion. Did the man in prison who never was attracted to men, suddenly developed the urge to engage in sexual activity because of 30 years of confinement? And as time went on, why did his perceptions change so much that his desire to have sex has morphed into actual attraction?

Do these cases demonstrate Homosexuality can learned or conditioned behavior?

I personally dont think its a choice, but occurrences of such anomalies tell me that more research is needed. the sad truth is, despite all the advance in our knowledge of the human body, the brain is still a mystery to us

If You see how much trouble some homosexual people have, especially in middle eastern countries where they glue them closed and let them walk till they die, then You should understand it is at least not always a choice.

20% of animals of a species is homosexual if possible. And i think 15% shy... can't remember that one for sure.

KungfuKitten

Can you give me an idea where you got those numbers? Also, those percentages doesnt include humans do they? If so, there are more gays in the US than blacks

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]

If You see how much trouble some homosexual people have, especially in middle eastern countries where they glue them closed and let them walk till they die, then You should understand it is at least not always a choice.

20% of animals of a species is homosexual if possible. And i think 15% shy... can't remember that one for sure.

majwill24

Can you give me an idea where you got those numbers? Also, those percentages doesnt include humans do they? If so, there are more gays in the US than blacks

i really have no clue. but I read something in the bible Romans chapter 1, tells why there is same-gender sex

It can be a choice, for those who got burned by the opposite so badly that they opt to "play for the other team".

It is probably not a choice for those whose brains make up are fundamentally different than heterosexuals. I have read some articles about how similar the brains make up are for criminals who are classified as sociopath under the CAT scan. What is surprising is that the author of the article, out of curiosity, took a CAT scan himself and was startled to find that he possess a brain that is highly similar to a sociopath, but according to the author himself and those around him, he displayed no trace ofsuch characteristics.

He proceeded to reason that, although he does have the biological makeup to be a sociopath, his good upbringing ultimately led him to live a good normal life instead of turning into a criminal. In another words, the natural tendency is there, but the environment prevented the tendency to manifest itself.

I'm thinking homosexuality, like sociopathtendency, function in similar fashion. With the right trigger it might manifest itself when a person is well into their adulthood, not fully aware of ones sexual orientation but merely act out of societal expectation. Nevertheless, I have yet to see any publications/research in this regard

[QUOTE="majwill24"]

[QUOTE="iamdisappointed"]This thread is crap. As Gabu said, it can't be a choice because of physical differences in the brain among homosexuals - humans do not have the power to wilfully and fundamentally alter their brain's anatomy. Simple as that. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.iamdisappointed

Well the confusion is because of so much conflicting information.

Do you realize that concept of a female and male brain is rejected in academia. Any suggestions that men think differently because of their brains is considered sexist.

Also, the phenomenon of homosexuality taking place in close, single sex quarters adds to the confusion. Did the man in prison who never was attracted to men, suddenly developed the urge to engage in sexual activity because of 30 years of confinement? And as time went on, why did his perceptions change so much that his desire to have sex has morphed into actual attraction?

Do these cases demonstrate Homosexuality can learned or conditioned behavior?

I personally dont think its a choice, but occurrences of such anomalies tell me that more research is needed. the sad truth is, despite all the advance in our knowledge of the human body, the brain is still a mystery to us

Well the idea of that children are genderless with their thoughts and desires, that it is the environment that shapes the behavior and instinct's of people. I personally disagree with that, but psychologists andwomen's groups advocate it and ridicules anyone who says otherwise.

they say its was sexism and patriarchy that developed the concept of the male and female brain. Whatever difference they do concede to, is usually argued that its so trivial that there is fundamentally no difference

It can be a choice, for those who got burned by the opposite so badly that they opt to "play for the other team".ariz3260

It can be a choice, for those who got burned by the opposite so badly that they opt to "play for the other team".ariz3260

[QUOTE="majwill24"]

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]

If You see how much trouble some homosexual people have, especially in middle eastern countries where they glue them closed and let them walk till they die, then You should understand it is at least not always a choice.

20% of animals of a species is homosexual if possible. And i think 15% shy... can't remember that one for sure.

xaos

Can you give me an idea where you got those numbers? Also, those percentages doesnt include humans do they? If so, there are more gays in the US than blacks

I never said they couldnt be :|

Blacks represent about 12% of the US population...

[QUOTE="iamdisappointed"][QUOTE="majwill24"]

Well the confusion is because of so much conflicting information.

Do you realize that concept of a female and male brain is rejected in academia. Any suggestions that men think differently because of their brains is considered sexist.

Also, the phenomenon of homosexuality taking place in close, single sex quarters adds to the confusion. Did the man in prison who never was attracted to men, suddenly developed the urge to engage in sexual activity because of 30 years of confinement? And as time went on, why did his perceptions change so much that his desire to have sex has morphed into actual attraction?

Do these cases demonstrate Homosexuality can learned or conditioned behavior?

I personally dont think its a choice, but occurrences of such anomalies tell me that more research is needed. the sad truth is, despite all the advance in our knowledge of the human body, the brain is still a mystery to us

majwill24

Well the idea of that children are genderless with their thoughts and desires, that it is the environment that shapes the behavior and instant's of people. I personally disagree with that, but psychologists andwomen's groups advocate it and ridicules anyone who says otherwise.

they say its was sexism and patriarchy that developed the concept of the male and female brain. Whatever difference they do concede to, is usually argued that its so trivial that there is fundamentally no difference