I wish anyone here could show me a country that has spilled more of its own blood for the protection and freedom of other countries than America. I am not saying America is perfect (its not), and individuals within our country sometimes give us a bad name (like abu ghraib), but they are generally not acting on behalf of the American government. All this hate on America because we are supposedly arrogant is perplexing to me, considering without America most of the world would probably be either speaking russian or german at this point.
Why is USA usually the innocent nation?
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Who said we were innocent? We are after what faction/tribe/nation has always been after... resources. So since the bleeding hearts don't want to hear it and children don't understand that it's either us or them we use propaganda. What's good for them is bad for us and what's bad for them is good for us.
Nobody's innocent but I do wish we'd stop sticking our business into countries that don't want us interfering with them.
How much blood has America spilled exactly? :lol: And your last sentence means nothing. Without the British empire, most of the world would be speaking French....so?I wish anyone here could show me a country that has spilled more blood for the protection and freedom of other countries than America. I am not saying America is perfect (its not), and individuals within our country sometimes give us a bad name (like abu ghraib), but they are generally not acting on behalf of the American government. All this hate on America because we are supposedly arrogant is perplexing to me, considering without America most of the world would probably be either speaking russian or german at this point.
Plzhelpmelearn
The US gets blamed for seemingly every bad thing that happens in the world. I don't know where this "innocent" idea comes from, it's just the opposite.UT_Wrestler
ok. give me a link that the US was blame for the LTTE. I am being serious btw.
I have to just point out the irony in this; on the one hand you feel it is unfair that some people criticize America for arrogance. Simultaneously, you then decide to explain to the world that they would be speaking russian or german if it were not for America. I think the latter answers the former, really. :P America is not an 'arrogant' nation. I think unfortunately, and largely due to the media, a great deal of American people are ignorant both of history and the world, simply due to the way both have been presented to them. It is important to note however that people shouldn't generalize based on people of that nature, and to broadly pin America, or any country, as arrogant or ignorant or anything else isn't fair. On the serious though.... America did not save the world in World War 2. Movies do not = history.I wish anyone here could show me a country that has spilled more blood for the protection and freedom of other countries than America. I am not saying America is perfect (its not), and individuals within our country sometimes give us a bad name (like abu ghraib), but they are generally not acting on behalf of the American government. All this hate on America because we are supposedly arrogant is perplexing to me, considering without America most of the world would probably be either speaking russian or german at this point.
Plzhelpmelearn
During the cold war era, the Soviet Union starved 5 million ukrainians to death in the name of "freedom", since you wanted someon to "show" you someone who has killed more in the name of freedom.I wish anyone here could show me a country that has spilled more blood for the protection and freedom of other countries than America. I am not saying America is perfect (its not), and individuals within our country sometimes give us a bad name (like abu ghraib), but they are generally not acting on behalf of the American government. All this hate on America because we are supposedly arrogant is perplexing to me, considering without America most of the world would probably be either speaking russian or german at this point.
Plzhelpmelearn
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]How much blood has America spilled exactly? :lol: And your last sentence means nothing. Without the British empire, most of the world would be speaking French....so? I'm sure you know that I was referring to our own blood. I will concede that my last point is not that strong, considering America did have a lot of self-interest in not seeing the Soviets or Germans succeed. Still I suggest you read the book the candy bombers to get an inside look at what America was willing to due to help west Berlin, under the threat of Soviet advances. Most countries conquer after winning a war (like the soviets attempted) America instead poured endless resources into rebuilding a decimated Europe. People like to label America as the "world's police" as if that were a derogatory label, because we are so quick to interfere with conflicts between and within countries in the name of freedom and individual rights.I wish anyone here could show me a country that has spilled more blood for the protection and freedom of other countries than America. I am not saying America is perfect (its not), and individuals within our country sometimes give us a bad name (like abu ghraib), but they are generally not acting on behalf of the American government. All this hate on America because we are supposedly arrogant is perplexing to me, considering without America most of the world would probably be either speaking russian or german at this point.
Osaka-06
I don't really get what you mean. The USA isn't innocent - few countries are. And the US wasn't caught "off-guard" in WWI or WWII; their late entry was due to isolationism, not innocence.Bourbons3
Speaking of world war... Oh boy what a war number 3 will be. We have all the ultrea destructive hardware. Some on space station would see the earth light up.
I'm sure you know that I was referring to our own blood. I will concede that my last point is not that strong, considering America did have a lot of self-interest in not seeing the Soviets or Germans succeed. Still I suggest you read the book the candy bombers to get an inside look at what America was willing to due to help the west Berlin, under the threat of Soviet advances. Most countries conquer after winning a war (like the soviets attempted) America instead poured endless resources into rebuilding a decimated Europe. People like to label America as the "world's police" as if that were a derogatory label, because we are so quick to interfere with conflicts between and within countries in the name of freedom and individual rights. PlzhelpmelearnFact checks: America poured vast amounts of money into west berlin to make it a capitalist utopia. It was meant to be better than east berlin in every way, in order to rally people against communism.
Please name one conflict America entered into in the name of freedom and individual rights.
[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]I don't really get what you mean. The USA isn't innocent - few countries are. And the US wasn't caught "off-guard" in WWI or WWII; their late entry was due to isolationism, not innocence.MagnumPI
Speaking of world war... Oh boy what a war number 3 will be. We have all the ultrea destructive hardware. Some on space station would see the earth light up.
Yep, then WWIV can be fought with sticks and stones again.
[QUOTE="Iantheone"][QUOTE="buldog300"]If we kissed Israel's ass so much then our president wouldn't be apologizing to supposed enemies. I sympathize with a nation that can thrive when surrounded by nations that hate it, but I guess that's just my pesky American mentality. We impose because if we don't sit on them then they'd sit on us. They call the shots on the price of oil and our infrastructure would be crippled, they'd make the demands. It's like an arguement in school, the first person to back down loses and after that loss they get walked all over forever. So call us oppressive, totalitarian and obnoxious; it's nothing we haven't heard before. I'm damn proud to be an American and I wouldn't want to be anything else, nor would I want my government to put any other nation before its own people. We'll sit where we damn well please, because we're the 900lb gorilla. buldog300Hahaha this is why people don't like Americans. You aren't a 900lb gorilla. You don't need to get into a war for oil, how do you think all of the other countries have survived without war? have we got into a war for oil? Last time I checked the prices at the pumps hadn't dropped, so oil obviously wasn't the factor of the Iraqi war. We were a 900lb gorilla back when we had leaders that didn't take crap from dictators. You threatened our people before and you paid for it with blood, now you threaten our people and our president tongue cleans your boots for you. We're a sovereign nation, one that has been hit in the gut by a debt, incompetent leadership and an injured economy, but sovereign nontheless. We aren't pretentious, arrogant or inept contrary to popular beliefs, but we know what we have and what others do not have, and we aren't above using that information. The rest of the world can hate us all they damn well please, there is very little we could do to change the opinions of billions, as long as we get to make our choices at the end of the day. A collaboration of underlings hating something they deem superior, like any setting where a goal must be achieved, this is the world, and I'd rather be on top of the totem. Of course, this might not appeal to your fancy, it might make you just roll your eyes at my 'oppressive' ideals. So tell me, look on the tags of your cloths, where are they made? Are they made honestly, or are they made in Latin America and East Asia, where sweatshops are prominent? The difference between yours and mine is that mine accepts what we must consume to get by another day. You were insinuating that there was a war for oil. About how if you dont get on top of them they will call the shots and ruin the economy and infrastructure. In the modern world if you want something you suck up for it. And as for your "America pwns all and we dont care, top of the totem ple" argument, let me remind you of a certain country which you are descended from called England. The controlled most of the world, they were THE superpower. They went into a decline and so will America. And that decline is happening now.
[QUOTE="Osaka-06"][QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]How much blood has America spilled exactly? :lol: And your last sentence means nothing. Without the British empire, most of the world would be speaking French....so? I'm sure you know that I was referring to our own blood. I will concede that my last point is not that strong, considering America did have a lot of self-interest in not seeing the Soviets or Germans succeed. Still I suggest you read the book the candy bombers to get an inside look at what America was willing to due to help the west Berlin, under the threat of Soviet advances. Most countries conquer after winning a war (like the soviets attempted) America instead poured endless resources into rebuilding a decimated Europe. People like to label America as the "world's police" as if that were a derogatory label, because we are so quick to interfere with conflicts between and within countries in the name of freedom and individual rights. The only reason you built up western Europe was because you needed a wall against communism. You knew that military intervention wouldn't work so instead you spent those resources on social rebuilding instead of military investment, It's still the same logic. Now, when the EU isn't dependent on the US anymore, you complain about us not following you into stupud wars etc- claiming we're ungrateful. Which is insane at best. And you're not quick to interfere AT ALL. Why the hell do you think the EU needed to drag it's ass down to Chad, Sudan, the Congo etc?Also, you haven't done anything with the Darfur crisis or North Korea either. You're not at all obligated to do anything about these things, and believe or not, no-one expects you to help people down there, but don't try to take credit for it.I wish anyone here could show me a country that has spilled more blood for the protection and freedom of other countries than America. I am not saying America is perfect (its not), and individuals within our country sometimes give us a bad name (like abu ghraib), but they are generally not acting on behalf of the American government. All this hate on America because we are supposedly arrogant is perplexing to me, considering without America most of the world would probably be either speaking russian or german at this point.
Plzhelpmelearn
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"][QUOTE="Osaka-06"] How much blood has America spilled exactly? :lol: And your last sentence means nothing. Without the British empire, most of the world would be speaking French....so?Osaka-06I'm sure you know that I was referring to our own blood. I will concede that my last point is not that strong, considering America did have a lot of self-interest in not seeing the Soviets or Germans succeed. Still I suggest you read the book the candy bombers to get an inside look at what America was willing to due to help the west Berlin, under the threat of Soviet advances. Most countries conquer after winning a war (like the soviets attempted) America instead poured endless resources into rebuilding a decimated Europe. People like to label America as the "world's police" as if that were a derogatory label, because we are so quick to interfere with conflicts between and within countries in the name of freedom and individual rights. The only reason you built up western Europe was because you needed a wall against communism. You knew that military intervention wouldn't work so instead you spent those resources on social rebuilding instead of military investment, It's still the same logic. Now, when the EU isn't dependent on the US anymore, you complain about us not following you into stupud wars etc- claiming we're ungrateful. Which is insane at best. And you're not quick to interfere AT ALL. Why the hell do you think the EU needed to drag it's ass down to Chad, Sudan, the Congo etc?Also, you haven't done anything with the Darfur crisis or North Korea either. You're not at all obligated to do anything about these things, and believe or not, no-one expects you to help people down there, but don't try to take credit for it.
Personally I try not to tie myself to the things that dead people have done. So what if some people like to trash america, they talk about it as if they contributed. They weren't there so what do they know?
I don't really get what you mean. The USA isn't innocent - few countries are. And the US wasn't caught "off-guard" in WWI or WWII; their late entry was due to isolationism, not innocence.Bourbons3
The US was caught off guard in WW2... the japanese attacked pearl harbour without the US receiving a declaration of War due to the incompetence of the people at the embassy.
That is the same question I was doing yesterday with my family and friends. Always the United States are the heroes of the day, the ones that save the world from the muslims, russians, colombians, terrorists and drugs cartel. I haven't seen any movie, game, tv show that put the United States as the evil ones... Wait, I remember one; Darker than Black two put that the United States invaded Japan at the end. Or was it? I don't remember well, the story was kind of complicated. Miroku32
You are correct about darker than black.
[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]I don't really get what you mean. The USA isn't innocent - few countries are. And the US wasn't caught "off-guard" in WWI or WWII; their late entry was due to isolationism, not innocence.Espada12
The US was caught off guard in WW2... the japanese attacked pearl harbour without the US receiving a declaration of War due to the incompetence of the people at the embassy.
Yeah, and that's the only reason the U.S got involved. Isolating their selves from the war was no longer an option since Japan was knocking on Hawaii's door.
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"][QUOTE="Osaka-06"] How much blood has America spilled exactly? :lol: And your last sentence means nothing. Without the British empire, most of the world would be speaking French....so?Osaka-06I'm sure you know that I was referring to our own blood. I will concede that my last point is not that strong, considering America did have a lot of self-interest in not seeing the Soviets or Germans succeed. Still I suggest you read the book the candy bombers to get an inside look at what America was willing to due to help the west Berlin, under the threat of Soviet advances. Most countries conquer after winning a war (like the soviets attempted) America instead poured endless resources into rebuilding a decimated Europe. People like to label America as the "world's police" as if that were a derogatory label, because we are so quick to interfere with conflicts between and within countries in the name of freedom and individual rights. The only reason you built up western Europe was because you needed a wall against communism. You knew that military intervention wouldn't work so instead you spent those resources on social rebuilding instead of military investment, It's still the same logic. Now, when the EU isn't dependent on the US anymore, you complain about us not following you into stupud wars etc- claiming we're ungrateful. Which is insane at best. And you're not quick to interfere AT ALL. Why the hell do you think the EU needed to drag it's ass down to Chad, Sudan, the Congo etc?Also, you haven't done anything with the Darfur crisis or North Korea either. You're not at all obligated to do anything about these things, and believe or not, no-one expects you to help people down there, but don't try to take credit for it. Military intervention wouldn't work? At the start of the cold war we had the most powerful god damned weapon ever conceived. We could have bombed the bejesus out of everyone if we wanted to. Ever hear of the Korean war? You know where America kept South Korea free? Ever hear of the Truman doctrine? You know, where America declared we would aid countries from hostile take overs and tyranny?
I am not saying that America has interfered in every conflict that ever existed, but usually when America does, we are fighting dictators oppressing their people. What kind of government did Iraq have a decade ago? What kind does it have now? Who saved Kuwait? What about our actions in Somali, kosovo, bosnia I understand that other countries were involved, but America was definitely a major player in all of these. We are not always successful either, as displayed emphatically in vietnam, but you can't say America hasn't put more blood and money into keeping people free than any other nation.
I'm sure you'll be quick to point out that we have other interests in these conflicts other than just making people free, but just because democracies are more beneficial to US national security doesn't mean that the fact we are fighting to keep people free should be seen in solely a selfish light. I don't blame Europe for not following us into all of our wars, but I do think it is a bit silly to be hating on America, when there are a lot of other countries that are genuinely evil.
To answer OP, it is propaganda.
I live outside of USA and here USA isn't seen as innocent.
Both propaganda, both unreliable including their facts.
Military intervention wouldn't work? At the start of the cold war we had the most powerful god damned weapon ever conceived. We could have bombed the bejesus out of everyone if we wanted to. Ever hear of the Korean war? You know where America kept South Korea free? Ever hear of the Truman doctrine? You know, where America declared we would aid countries from hostile take overs and tyranny?
I am not saying that America has interfered in every conflict that ever existed, but usually when America does, we are fighting dictators oppressing their people. What kind of government did Iraq have a decade ago? What kind does it have now? Who saved Kuwait? What about our actions in Somali, kosovo, bosnia I understand that other countries were involved, but America was definitely a major player in all of these. We are not always successful either, as displayed emphatically in vietnam, but you can't say America hasn't put more blood and money into keeping people free than any other nation.
I'm sure you'll be quick to point out that we have other interests in these conflicts other than just making people free, but just because democracies are more beneficial to US national security doesn't mean that the fact we are fighting to keep people free should be seen in solely a selfish light. I don't blame Europe for not following us into all of our wars, but I do think it is a bit silly to be hating on America, when there are a lot of other countries that are genuinely evil.
Plzhelpmelearn
Well for starters you didn't enter that war to keep south korea free, you merely did it to stop the spread of communism much like you tried with vietnam, although if I were a south korean I would be greatly indebted to American and europe.. don't make it sound as though only the US fought in that korean war.
Also don't use iraq as an argument because the US put Saddam back into power. I'm not going to say something silly like America has no done anything good, however their reasoning is not freedom and what not, it's all about influence and stopping other super powers from gaining more.
Panama is another country that don't see United States so innocent. The Panama Canal Era was quite bad for us, especially the incident of january nine. The only thing I accept is the invasion of Panama because the panamenians didn't dare to kick Noriega so United Stated did us a favor despite what other people of this country believe but the other incident, January nine, was quite bad. Why they wouldn't allow us to put our flag in the Canal area?To answer OP, it is propaganda.
I live outside of USA and here USA isn't seen as innocent.
Both propaganda, both unreliable including their facts.KungfuKitten
The only thing you can do in terms of assisting a nation to freedom is by giving them a foot hold, achance to take control, to fight. Anyone who is not willing to fight for freedom or keep their freedom will never be free. So if the people we try to help won't fight for their selves they won'tbe free.
Many ofthem expect us to come back. They want us to fight for them. We try to supply and train them but usually once we are gone they decide being undertyranny is better than dying for freedom.Also while training these people you also run the risk of supplying and training pirates who will just give you and your allies a backstabbing eventually.
People who don't have freedom and order don't have it because they don't want it to fight for it.
[QUOTE="scorch-62"]USA innocent? I lol'd.LJS9502_basicWhich nation is innocent? The swiss?
I think the real problem is that a lot of countries do not like our way of life. They either find it insulting or having no value. The bottom line is western society has a huge influence on a lot of modern eastern countries. Where a lot of those countries are very old school and very religous. When people in other countries see their people dressing like us, listening to our music, playing our games they call it oppression. Really at the end of the day there are people who like their customs of their country and the way their society runs. They don't like howour traditions and way of life have reached over in other countries. The other thing is usually the U.S doesn't start wars or goes around performing car bombings and taking planes into buildings in other countries. Another issue we have is we help to many countries and a lot of times when we do we don't neccessarly pick the country that really needs assistance but one that would benefit US in the long run. Which really in the end its all about looking out for your own but right?
The only reason you built up western Europe was because you needed a wall against communism. You knew that military intervention wouldn't work so instead you spent those resources on social rebuilding instead of military investment, It's still the same logic. Now, when the EU isn't dependent on the US anymore, you complain about us not following you into stupud wars etc- claiming we're ungrateful. Which is insane at best. And you're not quick to interfere AT ALL. Why the hell do you think the EU needed to drag it's ass down to Chad, Sudan, the Congo etc?Also, you haven't done anything with the Darfur crisis or North Korea either. You're not at all obligated to do anything about these things, and believe or not, no-one expects you to help people down there, but don't try to take credit for it. Military intervention wouldn't work? At the start of the cold war we had the most powerful god damned weapon ever conceived. We could have bombed the bejesus out of everyone if we wanted to. Ever hear of the Korean war? You know where America kept South Korea free? Ever hear of the Truman doctrine? You know, where America declared we would aid countries from hostile take overs and tyranny?[QUOTE="Osaka-06"][QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"] I'm sure you know that I was referring to our own blood. I will concede that my last point is not that strong, considering America did have a lot of self-interest in not seeing the Soviets or Germans succeed. Still I suggest you read the book the candy bombers to get an inside look at what America was willing to due to help the west Berlin, under the threat of Soviet advances. Most countries conquer after winning a war (like the soviets attempted) America instead poured endless resources into rebuilding a decimated Europe. People like to label America as the "world's police" as if that were a derogatory label, because we are so quick to interfere with conflicts between and within countries in the name of freedom and individual rights. Plzhelpmelearn
I am not saying that America has interfered in every conflict that ever existed, but usually when America does, we are fighting dictators oppressing their people. What kind of government did Iraq have a decade ago? What kind does it have now? Who saved Kuwait? What about our actions in Somali, kosovo, bosnia I understand that other countries were involved, but America was definitely a major player in all of these. We are not always successful either, as displayed emphatically in vietnam, but you can't say America hasn't put more blood and money into keeping people free than any other nation.
I'm sure you'll be quick to point out that we have other interests in these conflicts other than just making people free, but just because democracies are more beneficial to US national security doesn't mean that the fact we are fighting to keep people free should be seen in solely a selfish light. I don't blame Europe for not following us into all of our wars, but I do think it is a bit silly to be hating on America, when there are a lot of other countries that are genuinely evil.
Didn't the CIA overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran?
Didn't the CIA overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran?
SgtKevali
Yes... and now they complain about iran.. notice how all these puppet governments and militants they used are coming back to bite them in the butt?
Bin laden, saddam, I can't spell that guy's name from iran, noriega etc etc
You're putting a positive spin on global war mongering. Vietnam is a perfect example. Massive military action, unparalleled civilian death, complete decimation of the forest and environment all in the name of stopping a country which *WANTED* to be communist from doing so. You claim America got involved in these conflicts to 'keep people free' but that's absolutely untrue. They got involved in these conflicts because Russia was their biggest competitor and they wanted to stop any effort on the USSR's part to expand at any cost.Military intervention wouldn't work? At the start of the cold war we had the most powerful god damned weapon ever conceived. We could have bombed the bejesus out of everyone if we wanted to. Ever hear of the Korean war? You know where America kept South Korea free? Ever hear of the Truman doctrine? You know, where America declared we would aid countries from hostile take overs and tyranny?
I am not saying that America has interfered in every conflict that ever existed, but usually when America does, we are fighting dictators oppressing their people. What kind of government did Iraq have a decade ago? What kind does it have now? Who saved Kuwait? What about our actions in Somali, kosovo, bosnia I understand that other countries were involved, but America was definitely a major player in all of these. We are not always successful either, as displayed emphatically in vietnam, but you can't say America hasn't put more blood and money into keeping people free than any other nation.
I'm sure you'll be quick to point out that we have other interests in these conflicts other than just making people free, but just because democracies are more beneficial to US national security doesn't mean that the fact we are fighting to keep people free should be seen in solely a selfish light. I don't blame Europe for not following us into all of our wars, but I do think it is a bit silly to be hating on America, when there are a lot of other countries that are genuinely evil.
Plzhelpmelearn
Ironic, too, that you mention Iraq and the middle east when both Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were installed and ARMED by the United States.
There is not a single conflict that America has decided to intervene in (excluding UN NATO actions) which has been in the name of 'keeping people free.' Nobody is hating on America. I have nothing against America. People are just pointing out the holes in this completely untrue way of thinking.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="scorch-62"]USA innocent? I lol'd.UnamedThingWhich nation is innocent? The swiss? What about the bank accounts from those gassed and fried in the death camps?
it's typical of you liberals to sympathize terrorists and hate your own country.
Last time I've checked, we don't have sharia law, we also give women free rights, we also never flew planes into buildings, or bomb subways, and we accept religious freedom. UNLIKE those "innocent" middle eastern countries.
I could care less about how the middle east whines about our foreign policies. They are all so primitive and barbaric, I don't even view them as human biengs.
it's typical of you liberals to sympathize terrorists and hate your own country.
Last time I've checked, we don't have sharia law, we also give women free rights, we also never flew planes into buildings, or bomb subways, and we accept religious freedom. UNLIKE those "innocent" middle eastern countries.
I could care less about how the middle east whines about our foreign policies. They are all so primitive and barbaric, I don't even view them as human biengs.
Syk0_k03r
How does allowing for another religion to practice freely within the country equivalent to hating ones country and sympathizing with terrorists? Not all of those who practice Islam are terrorists hell bent on bringing western civilization to its knees.
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]
it's typical of you liberals to sympathize terrorists and hate your own country.
Last time I've checked, we don't have sharia law, we also give women free rights, we also never flew planes into buildings, or bomb subways, and we accept religious freedom. UNLIKE those "innocent" middle eastern countries.
I could care less about how the middle east whines about our foreign policies. They are all so primitive and barbaric, I don't even view them as human biengs.
ragek1ll589
How does allowing for another religion to practice freely within the country equivalent to hating ones country and sympathizing with terrorists? Not all of those who practice Islam are terrorists hell bent on bringing western civilization to its knees.
but everyone who is hell bent on bringing western civilization to its knees practices islam :shock:
it's because you're part of the masses and only receive the messages that benefit the wallets of the message makers.Perd1t1onI don't recall anyone ever saying that we our innocent. Distorting the facts to dupe the naive and the simpletons is just part of life.
Other than that people don't want to hear the truth, they refuse to accept the truth. They aren't far from sticking their fingers in their ears while shouting "I'M NOT LISTENING." They like heroic and righteous fairy tales. So we tell them what they want to hear. Anyone with a brain knows it's complete bull **** Life is like chess.
but everyone who is hell bent on bringing western civilization to its knees practices islam :shock:
Syk0_k03r
As I said before, a majority of those who practice Islam do not wish to destroy the West. The fringe element do.
Religion has been the excuse for war ever since war began. If you want to start a war it doesn't matterwhy because all you have to do is stir up the fanatics becausetheir reactions andgeneralstupidity will spark it. Soon everyone is fighting and nobody really knows why but theechelon doesn't care because they have what they want, an excuse.
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