WWII Vet Writes to Obama. I think You all oughta read this.

This is a hilarious post as despicable lie was the vets words, not mine.

No, that was not my point at all. Why are you resorting to strawmen. My point was that if it is matter of perspective, how can the vet be correct when he says what Obama said was a despicable lie? How is the true statement that we are nation of many faiths a lie?

GreySeal9

What does it mean to "act like an American"? How is an American suppose to act?

I have much respect for the man for serving, but most of his criticisms seem way off base.

-Sun_Tzu-

Well, for starters (and this applies to W, too), an American shouldn't bow before a Saudi king.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"] I do believe he also stated that we were a primarily Muslim nation at one point...which is probably what the man was attempting to state...and Nowhere did i ever deny the existence of other faiths in the United States nor did i ever imply it..I don't even see a point in bringing such a statement up as it has nothing to do with the subject at hand..as i believe someone said..just because it's the majority that doesn't make it a Christian nation..are you now stating that if every citizen of the United States were to be Christian that would change anything?..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Post proof for this. An actual quote.

That statement has everything to do with the statement as that is what Obama actually said:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_say_we_are_no_longer.html

I'm not even arguing about whether is a Christian nation or not. I am asking what makes Obama's comment a despicable lie?.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]I do believe he also stated that we were a primarily Muslim nation at one point...which is probably what the man was attempting to stateworlock77

He never said such a thing. He stated that we were the largest Muslim nation, though he didn't state by what criteria he was using. He may have meant in terms of population (which is wrong), or he may have meant in terms of land area (which might be true), I don't know. It was a dumb statement to be sure, but hardly the same as saying we are a primarily Muslim nation.

wow thats intense good for him, I don't completly agree with him but he has his points

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]I do believe he also stated that we were a primarily Muslim nation at one point...which is probably what the man was attempting to stateXx_Hopeless_xX

He never said such a thing. He stated that we were the largest Muslim nation, though he didn't state by what criteria he was using. He may have meant in terms of population (which is wrong), or he may have meant in terms of land area (which might be true), I don't know. It was a dumb statement to be sure, but hardly the same as saying we are a primarily Muslim nation.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]I do believe he also stated that we were a primarily Muslim nation at one point...which is probably what the man was attempting to stateXx_Hopeless_xX

He never said such a thing. He stated that we were the largest Muslim nation, though he didn't state by what criteria he was using. He may have meant in terms of population (which is wrong), or he may have meant in terms of land area (which might be true), I don't know. It was a dumb statement to be sure, but hardly the same as saying we are a primarily Muslim nation.

I thought you were saying that Obama said that we are a primarily Muslim nation. If not I apoligize. Some times things get a bit mixed up in large threads such as this.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Xx_Hopeless_xX

See, but it is only your opinion that Obama disrespected that the nation when he didn't put his hand over his heart. And your opinion has no bearing on Obama's feelings about this nation. And neither do yours..what an epiphany.. It is absolutely fallicious and somewhat arrogant to base the level of love one has for their country on your opinion of what constitutes respect. Oh..attacks on character now..and it's not my opinion alone..many fellow Americans would agree that it is disrespectful..? It's pretty obvious that Obama is not as concerned with symbolism as some rightwingers Nice generalization..but some left wingers probably find it offensive as well..(hence the flagpin incident), but that does not in any way mean he doesn't love the country. Show me an example that shows his love for the country then..other than your personal beliefs on the matter.. Why are trying to force your assumption through in such a fallicious way when you yourself admitted that you don't know if he loves the country or not. I never admitted i don't know..i admitted it was a moot point...and calling ones opinion fallacious is utterly absurd as you can neither confirm nor deny the point either..nor am i trying to "force" my assumption on anyone..

So what if it is a "major mistake." Politicians makes huge gaffes ALL THE TIME. Are you seriously going to tell me otherwise..So if others do it it's okay then?..That's the mindset!

I don't care what you think sounds better. Let's get that out the way know. I don't care what people think of my tone. I think that your criticism in relation to the flag incident is as petty and small as it gets. I will not change that opinion just because it doesn't sound good to you. The flag complaint is an immensely small thing when you consider some of the things that are going on in this world. Well let's get another thing out of the way..i don't really care what your opinion is to be quite honest...you're the one that brought up the points asking for them to be refuted and i did so...you're now turning this into a personal matter..

Instead of posting proof, how about posting an explanation of why that speaks to his love of the country that actually makes sense. I believe my proof made complete sense..and i don't see how you could view it as "not" making sense when i stated it in an explicitly obvious manner..

When did I attack your character? Please explain.

Some of your fellow Americans would agree that it's not respectful. Not everybody. Again, your opinion on what is respectful has absolutely no bearing on how much he loves his country, no matter how much you wish for that to be so.

I never said that no leftwingers cared about symbolism and all rightwingers do. I said some rightwingers, refering to the people that attacked him over it.

I didn't call your opinion fallicious. I called the act of talking your own opinion on what constitutes respect and using it to assume something that you don't know.

So are going to tell me that you do know? Show me your evidence.

I didn't say you were forcing your opinion on anyone. I was saying that you were falliciously using your limited opinion as a basis to assume the truth about Obama's love for his country.

I never said "if others do it, it's okay," although I do think the flag thing is petty nonsense. I'm saying that your comment that it was a big mistake means nothing. Big mistakes are made constantly.

I respect that you don't care about my opinion, as you shouldn't. But I'm still going to express it. I have to get it off my chest.

When I talked about making sense, I didn't mean your video. I want an actual analysis of what makes the flag thing so disrespectful without appeals to tradition.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

What does it mean to "act like an American"? How is an American suppose to act?

I have much respect for the man for serving, but most of his criticisms seem way off base.

dkrustyklown

Well, for starters (and this applies to W, too), an American shouldn't bow before a Saudi king.

Really prove it? This man is 94 years old, why didnt he write Nixon the same letter when Nixon bowed to the same emperor that ordered the attack of Pearl Harbor? where was this old senile fool then? Oh and he says "Obama goes around the world saying America is no longer a christian nation" can you prove that with a link or video of him saying that please?

ColonelDrakePS3

Like this?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

This is a hilarious post as despicable lie was the vets words, not mine.

No, that was not my point at all. Why are you resorting to strawmen. My point was that if it is matter of perspective, how can the vet be correct when he says what Obama said was a despicable lie? How is the true statement that we are nation of many faiths a lie?

LJS9502_basic

It is in my post, but it is his words, so how is it my appeal to emotion? I mean, are you serious with this or are just trolling? Why would you try to pass off another man's words as my appeal to emotion just because it is in my post? How is that in any way intellectually honest?

I'm not arguing against the opinion that America is a Christian nation. I'm cool with that opinion. I'm arguing against the statement that Obama despicably lied when he said we are nation of all faiths. Do you deny that we are nation of all faiths? If so, why?

[QUOTE="ColonelDrakePS3"]

Really prove it? This man is 94 years old, why didnt he write Nixon the same letter when Nixon bowed to the same emperor that ordered the attack of Pearl Harbor? where was this old senile fool then? Oh and he says "Obama goes around the world saying America is no longer a christian nation" can you prove that with a link or video of him saying that please?

dkrustyklown

Like this?

[QUOTE="ColonelDrakePS3"]

Really prove it? This man is 94 years old, why didnt he write Nixon the same letter when Nixon bowed to the same emperor that ordered the attack of Pearl Harbor? where was this old senile fool then? Oh and he says "Obama goes around the world saying America is no longer a christian nation" can you prove that with a link or video of him saying that please?

dkrustyklown

Like this?

He said that we are a nation of all faiths. What is wrong with that?

I knew Obama was anti-American long before he was elected, he wasn't hard to see

I knew Obama was anti-American long before he was elected, he wasn't hard to see

p2250

And how do you know that you're not just seeing what you want to see or that your opinion is not just based off of the nation that he doesn't line up with your personal view of what is "American"?

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

See, but it is only your opinion that Obama disrespected that the nation when he didn't put his hand over his heart. And your opinion has no bearing on Obama's feelings about this nation. And neither do yours..what an epiphany.. It is absolutely fallicious and somewhat arrogant to base the level of love one has for their country on your opinion of what constitutes respect. Oh..attacks on character now..and it's not my opinion alone..many fellow Americans would agree that it is disrespectful..? It's pretty obvious that Obama is not as concerned with symbolism as some rightwingers Nice generalization..but some left wingers probably find it offensive as well..(hence the flagpin incident), but that does not in any way mean he doesn't love the country. Show me an example that shows his love for the country then..other than your personal beliefs on the matter.. Why are trying to force your assumption through in such a fallicious way when you yourself admitted that you don't know if he loves the country or not. I never admitted i don't know..i admitted it was a moot point...and calling ones opinion fallacious is utterly absurd as you can neither confirm nor deny the point either..nor am i trying to "force" my assumption on anyone..

So what if it is a "major mistake." Politicians makes huge gaffes ALL THE TIME. Are you seriously going to tell me otherwise..So if others do it it's okay then?..That's the mindset!

I don't care what you think sounds better. Let's get that out the way know. I don't care what people think of my tone. I think that your criticism in relation to the flag incident is as petty and small as it gets. I will not change that opinion just because it doesn't sound good to you. The flag complaint is an immensely small thing when you consider some of the things that are going on in this world. Well let's get another thing out of the way..i don't really care what your opinion is to be quite honest...you're the one that brought up the points asking for them to be refuted and i did so...you're now turning this into a personal matter..

Instead of posting proof, how about posting an explanation of why that speaks to his love of the country that actually makes sense. I believe my proof made complete sense..and i don't see how you could view it as "not" making sense when i stated it in an explicitly obvious manner..

GreySeal9

When did I attack your character? Please explain. Calling one arrogant...is not usually a compliment..

Some of your fellow Americans would agree that it's not respectful. Not everybody. Again, your opinion on what is respectful has absolutely no bearing on how much he loves his country, no matter how much you wish for that to be so. Nice job assuming you know what i wish for..which would be a false assumption regardless..and as i stated before..it's all about personal opinion..

I never said that no leftwingers cared about symbolism and all rightwingers do. I said some rightwingers, refering to the people that attacked him over it. As they should have..if one doesn't even know the longstanding traditions of the Country he's going to be head of then we should seriously consider if the man is actually going to do what's good for the country..

I didn't call your opinion fallicious. I called the act of talking your own opinion on what constitutes respect and using it to assume something that you don't know. I never acted as if it was the only correct opinion..i stated before that it all boils down to ones personal opinion..

So are going to tell me that you do know? Show me your evidence. I do know what?..

I didn't say you were forcing your opinion on anyone. I was saying that you were falliciously using your limited opinion as a basis to assume the truth about Obama's love for his country. "Why are trying to force your assumption through in such a fallicious way"..And your opinion is..what?..

I never said "if others do it, it's okay," although I do think the flag thing is petty nonsense. I'm saying that your comment that it was a big mistake means nothing. Big mistakes are made constantly. Which is basically stating that just because they happen alot that they should be excused..

I respect that you don't care about my opinion, as you shouldn't. But I'm still going to express it. I have to get it off my chest. As do i...so woo hoo for us..

When I talked about making sense, I didn't mean your video. I want an actual analysis of what makes the flag thing so disrespectful without appeals to tradition. What video are we talking about here?..And tradition is everything..it's what builds many aspects of our life..so we should just forego all tradition now?..

This is basically not going anywhere...now we're just arguing opinions..

Does it say that in the american citizen pocket manual? HoolaHoopMan

An American president, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, should never bow before the head of state of a foreign power.

The President is our head of state, and heads of state shouldn't bow to each other. You won't see the King of Spain bowing before another king. Such an act would be cause for outrage and indignation in much of Spain.

To see our head of state, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, bowing before the head of state of another country is an insult to all Americans.

It is in my post, but it is his words, so how is it my appeal to emotion? I mean, are you serious with this or are just trolling? Why would you try to pass off another man's words as my appeal to emotion just because it is in my post? How is that in any way intellectually honest?

I'm not arguing against the opinion that America is a Christian nation. I'm cool with that opinion. I'm arguing against the statement that Obama despicably lied when he said we are nation of all faiths. Do you deny that we are nation of all faiths? If so, why?

GreySeal9

Again...that depends on perspective. If one is looking at the majority faith and using that to define the majority of faiths...then it's not incorrect to call the US a Christian nation. Most of the early settlers would have been some denomination. Yes....it's expanding with other faiths now. And?

I knew Obama was anti-American long before he was elected, he wasn't hard to see

p2250

[QUOTE="p2250"]

I knew Obama was anti-American long before he was elected, he wasn't hard to see

GreySeal9

And how do you know that you're not just seeing what you want to see or that your opinion is not just based off of the nation that he doesn't line up with your personal view of what is "American"?

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"] Does it say that in the american citizen pocket manual? dkrustyklown

An American president, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, should never bow before the head of state of a foreign power.

The President is our head of state, and heads of state shouldn't bow to each other. You won't see the King of Spain bowing before another king. Such an act would be cause for outrage and indignation in much of Spain.

To see our head of state, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, bowing before the head of state of another country is an insult to all Americans.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"] Does it say that in the american citizen pocket manual? dkrustyklown

An American president, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, should never bow before the head of state of a foreign power.

The President is our head of state, and heads of state shouldn't bow to each other. You won't see the King of Spain bowing before another king. Such an act would be cause for outrage and indignation in much of Spain.

To see our head of state, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, bowing before the head of state of another country is an insult to all Americans.

I'm an American and I don't see it that way, so no, it is not an insult to all Americans.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"] Does it say that in the american citizen pocket manual? dkrustyklown

An American president, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, should never bow before the head of state of a foreign power.

The President is our head of state, and heads of state shouldn't bow to each other. You won't see the King of Spain bowing before another king. Such an act would be cause for outrage and indignation in much of Spain.

To see our head of state, be it Nixon, Bush, or Obama, bowing before the head of state of another country is an insult to all Americans.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

It is in my post, but it is his words, so how is it my appeal to emotion? I mean, are you serious with this or are just trolling? Why would you try to pass off another man's words as my appeal to emotion just because it is in my post? How is that in any way intellectually honest?

I'm not arguing against the opinion that America is a Christian nation. I'm cool with that opinion. I'm arguing against the statement that Obama despicably lied when he said we are nation of all faiths. Do you deny that we are nation of all faiths? If so, why?

LJS9502_basic

Again...that depends on perspective. If one is looking at the majority faith and using that to define the majority of faiths...then it's not incorrect to call the US a Christian nation. Most of the early settlers would have been some denomination. Yes....it's expanding with other faiths now. And?

But you are completely wrong. My intention was not to use them as an appeal to emotion. I used them because I believe that's one of his off base points. Should I NOT use his own words. You "appeal to emotion" was completely of your own making.

So if it's true that America is expanding to other faiths, you would agree that the despicable lie comment was off base, right?

BTW, your habit of trying to skate over points with comments like "and?" and "your point?" is very telling.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="p2250"]

I knew Obama was anti-American long before he was elected, he wasn't hard to see

LJS9502_basic

And how do you know that you're not just seeing what you want to see or that your opinion is not just based off of the nation that he doesn't line up with your personal view of what is "American"?

That's why I'm asking him. I left the statement open-ended.

My question boils down to, "Is it just based off your personal notion of Americanism or are you just seeing what you want to see or do you have some evidence that goes beyond those limited litmus tests?" For all I know, he could say something that might change my mind. I doubt it though.

But you are completely wrong. My intention was not to use them as an appeal to emotion. I used them because I believe that's one of his off base points. Should I NOT use his own words. You "appeal to emotion" was completely of your own making.

So if it's true that America is expanding to other faiths, you would agree that the despicable lie comment was off base, right?

BTW, your habit of trying to skate over points with comments like "and?" and "your point?" is very telling.

GreySeal9

No I wouldn't call it a despicable lie. The US is still mostly Christian.......

What points? That you don't agree? That does not cIassify as a point.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

And how do you know that you're not just seeing what you want to see or that your opinion is not just based off of the nation that he doesn't line up with your personal view of what is "American"?

GreySeal9

That's why I'm asking him.

My question boils down to, "Is it just based off your personal notion of Americanism or are you just seeing what you want to see or do you have some evidence that goes beyond those limited litmus tests?" For all I know, he could say something that might change my mind.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

But you are completely wrong. My intention was not to use them as an appeal to emotion. I used them because I believe that's one of his off base points. Should I NOT use his own words. You "appeal to emotion" was completely of your own making.

So if it's true that America is expanding to other faiths, you would agree that the despicable lie comment was off base, right?

BTW, your habit of trying to skate over points with comments like "and?" and "your point?" is very telling.

LJS9502_basic

No I wouldn't call it a despicable lie. The US is still mostly Christian.......

What points? That you don't agree? That does not cIassify as a point.

If you're sure that it was an appeal to emotion, why don't you explain why? Your words don't go without saying.

Again, you are playing the dishonest game of trying to boil my point down to something that it wasn't.

Also, since when are disagreements mutually exclusive from points? A disagreement often manifests as a point.

What I am saying is: if we are indeed a nation of all faiths, which is true, in no way can Obama's statement be a despicable lie. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.

Also, yes, the US is mostly Christian, but how does that conflict with the statement that we are a nation of all faiths?

I'm an American and I don't see it that way, so no, it is not an insult to all Americans.

worlock77

That you don't recognize an insult doesn't make the act any less of an insult.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]How do you know that what he saw didn't give him his opinion?

LJS9502_basic

That's why I'm asking him.

My question boils down to, "Is it just based off your personal notion of Americanism or are you just seeing what you want to see or do you have some evidence that goes beyond those limited litmus tests?" For all I know, he could say something that might change my mind.

I didn't tell him.

I have a hunch about how he came to that opinion and I say as much in my post, but in no way did I pass it off as absolute fact. If those are not the thought processes by which he came to that conclusion, than a mere statement of how he did come to those conclusions will completely blow those statements out of the water.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

I'm an American and I don't see it that way, so no, it is not an insult to all Americans.

dkrustyklown

That you don't recognize an insult doesn't make the act any less of an insult.

So provide emphatic proof that is an insult if you are talking about people failing to recognize some truth.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

But you are completely wrong. My intention was not to use them as an appeal to emotion. I used them because I believe that's one of his off base points. Should I NOT use his own words. You "appeal to emotion" was completely of your own making.

So if it's true that America is expanding to other faiths, you would agree that the despicable lie comment was off base, right?

BTW, your habit of trying to skate over points with comments like "and?" and "your point?" is very telling.

GreySeal9

No I wouldn't call it a despicable lie. The US is still mostly Christian.......

What points? That you don't agree? That does not cIassify as a point.

If you're sure that it was an appeal to emotion, why don't you explain why? Your words don't go without saying.

Again, you are playing the dishonest game of trying to boil my point down to something that it wasn't.

Also, since when are disagreements mutually exclusive from points? A disagreement often manifests as a point.

What I am saying is: if we are indeed a nation of all faiths, which is true, in no way can Obama's statement be a despicable lie. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.

Also, yes, the US is mostly Christian, but how does that conflict with the statement that we are a nation of all faiths?

Ad hominem attacks are rarely the way to make a point....

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

That's why I'm asking him.

My question boils down to, "Is it just based off your personal notion of Americanism or are you just seeing what you want to see or do you have some evidence that goes beyond those limited litmus tests?" For all I know, he could say something that might change my mind.

GreySeal9

I didn't tell him.

I have a hunch about how he came to that opinion and I say as much in my post, but in no way did I pass it off as absolute fact. If those are not the thought processes by which he came to that conclusion, than a mere statement of how he did come to those conclusions will completely blow those statements out of the water.

All you have to do is read between the lines, Obama had a very anti-American "spiritual" advisor for 20 years, who shortly after 9/11 was bashing America and saying things like "God Damn American" and "the chickens are coming home to roast".

This wasn't the first time in 20 years Obama heard something like this.

The throw in the fact that he wouldn't wear an American flag pin for the longest time, his wife's comments, the fact that he was liked in Europe.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Xx_Hopeless_xX

When did I attack your character? Please explain. Calling one arrogant...is not usually a compliment..

Some of your fellow Americans would agree that it's not respectful. Not everybody. Again, your opinion on what is respectful has absolutely no bearing on how much he loves his country, no matter how much you wish for that to be so. Nice job assuming you know what i wish for..which would be a false assumption regardless..and as i stated before..it's all about personal opinion..

I never said that no leftwingers cared about symbolism and all rightwingers do. I said some rightwingers, refering to the people that attacked him over it. As they should have..if one doesn't even know the longstanding traditions of the Country he's going to be head of then we should seriously consider if the man is actually going to do what's good for the country..

I didn't call your opinion fallicious. I called the act of talking your own opinion on what constitutes respect and using it to assume something that you don't know. I never acted as if it was the only correct opinion..i stated before that it all boils down to ones personal opinion..

So are going to tell me that you do know? Show me your evidence. I do know what?..

I didn't say you were forcing your opinion on anyone. I was saying that you were falliciously using your limited opinion as a basis to assume the truth about Obama's love for his country. "Why are trying to force your assumption through in such a fallicious way"..And your opinion is..what?..

I never said "if others do it, it's okay," although I do think the flag thing is petty nonsense. I'm saying that your comment that it was a big mistake means nothing. Big mistakes are made constantly. Which is basically stating that just because they happen alot that they should be excused..

I respect that you don't care about my opinion, as you shouldn't. But I'm still going to express it. I have to get it off my chest. As do i...so woo hoo for us..

When I talked about making sense, I didn't mean your video. I want an actual analysis of what makes the flag thing so disrespectful without appeals to tradition. What video are we talking about here?..And tradition is everything..it's what builds many aspects of our life..so we should just forego all tradition now?..

This is basically not going anywhere...now we're just arguing opinions..

I said that the act of using your own opinion of what constitutes loving your country is arrogant. I never called you arrogant. I don't know you personally, so I wouldn't call you arrogant, just that particular sentiment.

You say I don't know what you wish. Yet when you actually performed the tangible act of using your opinion on what is disrespectful to determine his love for the country, you implicity expressed a notion that your own opinion on that matter has the power to reveal something about how much he loves the country.

What is your basis for saying that he doesn't know the traditions? If you are asserting that, you should establish a pattern. Using that one little incident as way to determine if he's going to what's good for the country strikes me as misguided. Why not just judge his policy and his actions that actually impact us?

Even if it is your opinion, what is the use of pretending that you know something about Obama that you don't?

If what way does me saying that the way in which you used your is fallicious require my own?

Instead of assuming that I mean it should be excused, why don't you actually just go by what I said. I think that is a slip up that shouldn't have happened, but the fact that it was a big mistake says nothing about why this mistake is supposed to be such a big deal. I'm just saying that your point is a bit of non-sequitor.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That is confrontational and not asking him HOW he came by his opinion but telling how he came by it....

LJS9502_basic

I didn't tell him.

I have a hunch about how he came to that opinion and I say as much in my post, but in no way did I pass it off as absolute fact. If those are not the thought processes by which he came to that conclusion, than a mere statement of how he did come to those conclusions will completely blow those statements out of the water.

Yeah, my words were a clear question.

All you have to do is read between the lines, Obama had a very anti-American "spiritual" advisor for 20 years, who shortly after 9/11 was bashing America and saying things like "God Damn American" and "the chickens are coming home to roast".

This wasn't the first time in 20 years Obama heard something like this.

The throw in the fact that he wouldn't wear an American flag pin for the longest time, his wife's comments, the fact that he was liked in Europe.

p2250

The fact he was liked in Europe? He can't control who likes him. And the fact that other countries like him has no bearing on whether he is anti-American or not.

Not everybody cares about a dumb flag pin. Seriously, some people are not hung up on symbolism and just don't see it is an important in the scheme of things.

As for the Church, just because Obama attended the church, doesn't mean that he automatically agrees with everything the pastor said.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

I'm an American and I don't see it that way, so no, it is not an insult to all Americans.

dkrustyklown

That you don't recognize an insult doesn't make the act any less of an insult.

Yeah it does. If I feel no insult at it then it is not an insult to me. It takes a little more than a gesture of respect from some guy I don't know to some other guy I don't know to insult me.

The pin may seem like a small issue, but the fact that he refused to wear one made a big statement, that he was against America.

Connect the dots man.

The pin may seem like a small issue, but the fact that he refused to wear one made a big statement, that he was against America.

Connect the dots man.

p2250

Dude, you are making a logical leap. How do you know that that was the statement he was trying to make?

I'm not going to connect the dots until you give me some connections that actually...y'know...connect.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]It was an appeal to emotion for more than just those words....

No I wouldn't call it a despicable lie. The US is still mostly Christian.......

What points? That you don't agree? That does not cIassify as a point.

LJS9502_basic

If you're sure that it was an appeal to emotion, why don't you explain why? Your words don't go without saying.

Again, you are playing the dishonest game of trying to boil my point down to something that it wasn't.

Also, since when are disagreements mutually exclusive from points? A disagreement often manifests as a point.

What I am saying is: if we are indeed a nation of all faiths, which is true, in no way can Obama's statement be a despicable lie. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.

Also, yes, the US is mostly Christian, but how does that conflict with the statement that we are a nation of all faiths?

Ad hominem attacks are rarely the way to make a point....

I didn't say that the opinion that we are Christian nation should be dismissed. I am asking how the statement that we are a nation of all faiths and the fact that we are premodinately Christian conflict.

It is only a lie if what he said is untrue. Either it's a lie or not. Your "can be a lie" statement speaks volumes as far as the slack you are trying to give this man. What did Obama say that was untrue? Just because what he says conflicts with one's own perspective does not mean it's a lie. Lies have negative truth value. Please explain what that negative truth value is.

Let's not try and twist the definition of lie. That in it itself is more tantamount to a lie than anything Obama said.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

When did I attack your character? Please explain. Calling one arrogant...is not usually a compliment..

Some of your fellow Americans would agree that it's not respectful. Not everybody. Again, your opinion on what is respectful has absolutely no bearing on how much he loves his country, no matter how much you wish for that to be so. Nice job assuming you know what i wish for..which would be a false assumption regardless..and as i stated before..it's all about personal opinion..

I never said that no leftwingers cared about symbolism and all rightwingers do. I said some rightwingers, refering to the people that attacked him over it. As they should have..if one doesn't even know the longstanding traditions of the Country he's going to be head of then we should seriously consider if the man is actually going to do what's good for the country..

I didn't call your opinion fallicious. I called the act of talking your own opinion on what constitutes respect and using it to assume something that you don't know. I never acted as if it was the only correct opinion..i stated before that it all boils down to ones personal opinion..

So are going to tell me that you do know? Show me your evidence. I do know what?..

I didn't say you were forcing your opinion on anyone. I was saying that you were falliciously using your limited opinion as a basis to assume the truth about Obama's love for his country. "Why are trying to force your assumption through in such a fallicious way"..And your opinion is..what?..

I never said "if others do it, it's okay," although I do think the flag thing is petty nonsense. I'm saying that your comment that it was a big mistake means nothing. Big mistakes are made constantly. Which is basically stating that just because they happen alot that they should be excused..

I respect that you don't care about my opinion, as you shouldn't. But I'm still going to express it. I have to get it off my chest. As do i...so woo hoo for us..

When I talked about making sense, I didn't mean your video. I want an actual analysis of what makes the flag thing so disrespectful without appeals to tradition. What video are we talking about here?..And tradition is everything..it's what builds many aspects of our life..so we should just forego all tradition now?..

This is basically not going anywhere...now we're just arguing opinions..

GreySeal9

I said that the act of using your own opinion of what constitutes loving your country is arrogant. I never called you arrogant. I don't know you personally, so I wouldn't call you arrogant, just that particular sentiment. Alright then...

You say I don't know what you wish. Yet when you actually performed the tangible act of using your opinion on what is disrespectful to determine his love for the country, you implicity expressed a notion that your own opinion on that matter has the power to reveal something about how much he loves the country. I did post proof on the matter of him not saluting the flag..and i have yet to see definitive proof in regards to his love of the country....just because you don't view it that way doesn't make it fact either..

What is your basis for saying that he doesn't know the traditions? If you are asserting that, you should establish a pattern. Using that one little incident as way to determine if he's going to what's good for the country strikes me as misguided. Why not just judge his policy and his actions that actually impact us? Placing ones hand over ones chest when reciting the Anthem is a tradition..also, did you not just imply it was a tradition in your previous statement by stating i could not use tradition to defend it?..

Even if it is your opinion, what is the use of pretending that you know something about Obama that you don't? And you do?..I can interpret him however i like..as can you..

If what way does me saying that the way in which you used your is fallicious require my own? Sorry i'm still not understanding what you're trying to say..

Instead of assuming that I mean it should be excused, why don't you actually just go by what I said. I think that is a slip up that shouldn't have happened, but the fact that it was a big mistake says nothing about why this mistake is supposed to be such a big deal. I'm just saying that your point is a bit of non-sequitor. You stated that big mistakes happen all the time..why is this one important?..Can that not be interpreted as you stating that it should be shrugged off?..

When there's a number of similar cases, you can see a connection. It's not just one case, but many.

Like the old saying, "if it walks like a duck...then it's probably a duck."

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

I have to be honest. I agree with most of what he said, bowing and "Christian nation" notwithstanding.

GreySeal9

What do you think makes this man's points correct?

Reality? I simply agree that our president's approach to foreign policy in general amongst numerous other major issues has been less than adequate. That of course is not too say that Bush didn't make major mistakes. (in case you were planning on a retort of that sort...)

The pin may seem like a small issue, but the fact that he refused to wear one made a big statement, that he was against America.

Connect the dots man.

p2250

So I guess all the other Presidents before Bush who never wore a flag pin were against America as well.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Xx_Hopeless_xX

I said that the act of using your own opinion of what constitutes loving your country is arrogant. I never called you arrogant. I don't know you personally, so I wouldn't call you arrogant, just that particular sentiment. Alright then...

You say I don't know what you wish. Yet when you actually performed the tangible act of using your opinion on what is disrespectful to determine his love for the country, you implicity expressed a notion that your own opinion on that matter has the power to reveal something about how much he loves the country. I did post proof on the matter of him not saluting the flag..and i have yet to see definitive proof in regards to his love of the country....just because you don't view it that way doesn't make it fact either..

What is your basis for saying that he doesn't know the traditions? If you are asserting that, you should establish a pattern. Using that one little incident as way to determine if he's going to what's good for the country strikes me as misguided. Why not just judge his policy and his actions that actually impact us? Placing ones hand over ones chest when reciting the Anthem is a tradition..also, did you not just imply it was a tradition in your previous statement by stating i could not use tradition to defend it?..

Even if it is your opinion, what is the use of pretending that you know something about Obama that you don't? And you do?..I can interpret him however i like..as can you..

If what way does me saying that the way in which you used your is fallicious require my own? Sorry i'm still not understanding what you're trying to say..

Instead of assuming that I mean it should be excused, why don't you actually just go by what I said. I think that is a slip up that shouldn't have happened, but the fact that it was a big mistake says nothing about why this mistake is supposed to be such a big deal. I'm just saying that your point is a bit of non-sequitor. You stated that big mistakes happen all the time..why is this one important?..Can that not be interpreted as you stating that it should be shrugged off?..

I honestly don't know if Obama loves the country or not. I'm not stating anything regarding his personal love of the country as fact because that wouldn't make sense. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt until someone can provide something beyond tenuous trivialities, like I would do for any President and like I have done for every President.

You're not going to see definitive proof. And tell me what definitive proof you say with any of the other Presidents.

I'll concede that you have a point that you can interpret him however you like, but I can also question the wiseness of doing so on such flimsy evidence.

As far as Obama and traditions are concerned, you said that Obama doesn't know about traditions. I asked you to demonstrate that he doesn't. He is an educated man. Why wouldn't he know about them? Whether he cares about them is a different story.

When you say that you don't understand what I mean, I'm saying that if I'm questioning your policy of using your personal opinion on what is respect to guage his personal love for the country, that does not require my own opinion.

I didn't ask "why is this one important"? I questioned why that it was a big political mistakes speaks to inherent importance of the action or lack thereof.

[QUOTE="p2250"]

The pin may seem like a small issue, but the fact that he refused to wear one made a big statement, that he was against America.

Connect the dots man.

worlock77

So I guess all the other Presidents before Bush who never wore a flag pin were against America as well.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

I have to be honest. I agree with most of what he said, bowing and "Christian nation" notwithstanding.

coolbeans90

What do you think makes this man's points correct?

Reality? I simply agree that our president's approach to foreign policy in general amongst numerous other major issues has been less than adequate. That of course is not too say that Bush didn't make major mistakes. (in case you were planning on a retort of that sort...)

"Reality" is pretty vague and doesn't really say any thing.

I just think the letter was garbage, so I'm just curious why people agree with him. That's one of the reasons I asked. And I also want to debate about the letter.

I think that disagreeing with Obama's foreign policy is valid. But that really wasn't the crux of that letter.