WWII Vet Writes to Obama. I think You all oughta read this.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="p2250"]

The pin may seem like a small issue, but the fact that he refused to wear one made a big statement, that he was against America.

Connect the dots man.

Xx_Hopeless_xX

So I guess all the other Presidents before Bush who never wore a flag pin were against America as well.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

So I guess all the other Presidents before Bush who never wore a flag pin were against America as well.

the_new_guy_92

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

If you're sure that it was an appeal to emotion, why don't you explain why? Your words don't go without saying.

Again, you are playing the dishonest game of trying to boil my point down to something that it wasn't.

Also, since when are disagreements mutually exclusive from points? A disagreement often manifests as a point.

What I am saying is: if we are indeed a nation of all faiths, which is true, in no way can Obama's statement be a despicable lie. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.

Also, yes, the US is mostly Christian, but how does that conflict with the statement that we are a nation of all faiths?

GreySeal9

Ad hominem attacks are rarely the way to make a point....

I didn't say that the opinion that we are Christian nation should be dismissed. I am asking how the statement that we are a nation of all faiths and the fact that we are premodinately Christian conflict.

It is only a lie if what he said is untrue. Either it's a lie or not. Your "can be a lie" statement speaks volumes as far as the slack you are trying to give this man. What did Obama say that was untrue? Just because what he says conflicts with one's own perspective does not mean it's a lie. Lies have negative truth value. Please explain what that negative truth value is.

Let's not try and twist the definition of lie. That in it itself is more tantamount to a lie than anything Obama said.

I just want to quote this post to say that I'd really like a response to this.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="p2250"]

The pin may seem like a small issue, but the fact that he refused to wear one made a big statement, that he was against America.

Connect the dots man.

Xx_Hopeless_xX

So I guess all the other Presidents before Bush who never wore a flag pin were against America as well.

So? No Presidents before Bush wore one, so were they anti-American as well? I mean I don't think popularity is a valid reason as I don't think the President should base his clothing on what's popular necessarily.

I agree. Yeah I'd hit that.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I said that the act of using your own opinion of what constitutes loving your country is arrogant. I never called you arrogant. I don't know you personally, so I wouldn't call you arrogant, just that particular sentiment. Alright then...

You say I don't know what you wish. Yet when you actually performed the tangible act of using your opinion on what is disrespectful to determine his love for the country, you implicity expressed a notion that your own opinion on that matter has the power to reveal something about how much he loves the country. I did post proof on the matter of him not saluting the flag..and i have yet to see definitive proof in regards to his love of the country....just because you don't view it that way doesn't make it fact either..

What is your basis for saying that he doesn't know the traditions? If you are asserting that, you should establish a pattern. Using that one little incident as way to determine if he's going to what's good for the country strikes me as misguided. Why not just judge his policy and his actions that actually impact us? Placing ones hand over ones chest when reciting the Anthem is a tradition..also, did you not just imply it was a tradition in your previous statement by stating i could not use tradition to defend it?..

Even if it is your opinion, what is the use of pretending that you know something about Obama that you don't? And you do?..I can interpret him however i like..as can you..

If what way does me saying that the way in which you used your is fallicious require my own? Sorry i'm still not understanding what you're trying to say..

Instead of assuming that I mean it should be excused, why don't you actually just go by what I said. I think that is a slip up that shouldn't have happened, but the fact that it was a big mistake says nothing about why this mistake is supposed to be such a big deal. I'm just saying that your point is a bit of non-sequitor. You stated that big mistakes happen all the time..why is this one important?..Can that not be interpreted as you stating that it should be shrugged off?..

GreySeal9

I honestly don't know if Obama loves the country or not. I'm not stating anything regarding his personal love of the country as fact because that wouldn't make sense. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt until someone can provide something beyond tenuous trivialities, like I would do for any President and like I have done for every President.Alright then..i don't give people the benefit of the doubt.

You're not going to see definitive proof. And tell me what definitive proof you say with any of the other Presidents. We're talking about Obama..and it's fairly easy to tell if one loves his country...i don't see any other presidents bungling anything in regards to reciting the Anthem..and i don't see any other presidents declaring we are a Muslim Nation..or something along those lines..

I'll concede that you have a point that you can interpret him however you like, but I can also question the wiseness of doing so on such flimsy evidence.

As far as Obama and traditions are concerned, you said that Obama doesn't know about traditions. I asked you to demonstrate that he doesn't. He is an educated man. Why wouldn't he know about them? Whether he cares about them is a different story. Well caring should be one of his concerns...as it shows he has taken the time to learn them..

When you say that you don't understand what I mean, I'm saying that if I'm questioning your policy of using your personal opinion on what is respect to guage his personal love for the country, that does not require my own opinion. Ok, so...?

I didn't ask "why is this one important"? I questioned why that it was a big political mistakes speaks to inherent importance of the action or lack thereof. Because as i said..many view it as not only traditional..but as respectful as well..and by not honoring it one could say he is disregarding the history of the country..even the country itself..as that is what the flag is interpreted as symbolising generally..

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

So I guess all the other Presidents before Bush who never wore a flag pin were against America as well.

worlock77

So? No Presidents before Bush wore one, so were they anti-American as well? I mean I don't think popularity is a valid reason as I don't think the President should base his clothing on what's popular necessarily.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

What do you think makes this man's points correct?

GreySeal9

Reality? I simply agree that our president's approach to foreign policy in general amongst numerous other major issues has been less than adequate. That of course is not too say that Bush didn't make major mistakes. (in case you were planning on a retort of that sort...)

"Reality" is pretty vague and doesn't really say any thing.

I just think the letter was garbage, so I'm just curious why people agree with him. That's one of the reasons I asked. And I also want to debate about the letter.

I think that disagreeing with Obama's foreign policy is valid. But that really wasn't the crux of that letter.

That exact topic is great deal of what the letter touched on. At least half of it. Unless you differentiate speeches in/to other countries and the like to not be foreign policy. (in all honesty, I am not precisely sure how that is supposed to be categorized. P.R. perhaps?) I found the way president Obama portrayed America with some of his remarks during speeches in other nations to simply be degrading, and unacceptable from our nation's most powerful political office. I felt thrown under the bus by the guy who is is supposed to represent the entire American people. I would discuss this point further, but I am going to get some rest. Peace.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"] It had only begun growing in popularity in the 60s and only gained a lot of popularity with Bush after 9/11..Xx_Hopeless_xX

So? No Presidents before Bush wore one, so were they anti-American as well? I mean I don't think popularity is a valid reason as I don't think the President should base his clothing on what's popular necessarily.

I did not say that Bush did wear one because it was popular. Ok, so Nixon worn one. Cool. He set the precident. And Bush wore one a lot. Now, does that mean that Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton were all against America?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Xx_Hopeless_xX

I honestly don't know if Obama loves the country or not. I'm not stating anything regarding his personal love of the country as fact because that wouldn't make sense. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt until someone can provide something beyond tenuous trivialities, like I would do for any President and like I have done for every President.Alright then..i don't give people the benefit of the doubt.

You're not going to see definitive proof. And tell me what definitive proof you say with any of the other Presidents. We're talking about Obama..and it's fairly easy to tell if one loves his country...i don't see any other presidents bungling anything in regards to reciting the Anthem..and i don't see any other presidents declaring we are a Muslim Nation..or something along those lines..

I'll concede that you have a point that you can interpret him however you like, but I can also question the wiseness of doing so on such flimsy evidence.

As far as Obama and traditions are concerned, you said that Obama doesn't know about traditions. I asked you to demonstrate that he doesn't. He is an educated man. Why wouldn't he know about them? Whether he cares about them is a different story. Well caring should be one of his concerns...as it shows he has taken the time to learn them..

When you say that you don't understand what I mean, I'm saying that if I'm questioning your policy of using your personal opinion on what is respect to guage his personal love for the country, that does not require my own opinion. Ok, so...?

I didn't ask "why is this one important"? I questioned why that it was a big political mistakes speaks to inherent importance of the action or lack thereof. Because as i said..many view it as not only traditional..but as respectful as well..and by not honoring it one could say he is disregarding the history of the country..even the country itself..as that is what the flag is interpreted as symbolising generally..

It's fine if you don't give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a very powerful reason our own justice system does.

First of all, it was a single incident. And I didn't say whether he cared or not. I just said that that was another story. You implied that he didn't know them and I wanted to know why you thought that was true.

Actually, it's not easy to tell if one loves their country or not. It is actually a complex issue and sometimes love for one's country is not absolute for valid reasons. There are grey areas. It is not black and white. Why is the use of simplifying the issues?

You can take it as disregarding the history of the country, but that doesn't mean that it was an intentional disregarded or that he doesn't love the country. Have you ever considered that his love for the country might be a little less absolute than your own, but still there. Or that his vision of what constitutes love for the country may be different than yours?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Reality? I simply agree that our president's approach to foreign policy in general amongst numerous other major issues has been less than adequate. That of course is not too say that Bush didn't make major mistakes. (in case you were planning on a retort of that sort...)

coolbeans90

"Reality" is pretty vague and doesn't really say any thing.

I just think the letter was garbage, so I'm just curious why people agree with him. That's one of the reasons I asked. And I also want to debate about the letter.

I think that disagreeing with Obama's foreign policy is valid. But that really wasn't the crux of that letter.

That exact topic is great deal of what the letter touched on. At least half of it. Unless you differentiate speeches in/to other countries and the like to not be foreign policy. (in all honesty, I am not precisely sure how that is supposed to be categorized. P.R. perhaps?) I found the way president Obama portrayed America with some of his remarks during speeches in other nations to simply be degrading, and unacceptable from our nation's most powerful political office. I felt thrown under the bus by the guy who is is supposed to represent the entire American people. I would discuss this point further, but I am going to get some rest. Peace.

You took the comment out of context.

He didn't insult the citizens and it didn't manifest as throwing you under the bus.

He was saying that America has some fault in the sour interactions of countries. If you want to completely disregard the context just to feel offended, then that's your choice. But that doesn't change the meaning of his comments.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

"Reality" is pretty vague and doesn't really say any thing.

I just think the letter was garbage, so I'm just curious why people agree with him. That's one of the reasons I asked. And I also want to debate about the letter.

I think that disagreeing with Obama's foreign policy is valid. But that really wasn't the crux of that letter.

GreySeal9

That exact topic is great deal of what the letter touched on. At least half of it. Unless you differentiate speeches in/to other countries and the like to not be foreign policy. (in all honesty, I am not precisely sure how that is supposed to be categorized. P.R. perhaps?) I found the way president Obama portrayed America with some of his remarks during speeches in other nations to simply be degrading, and unacceptable from our nation's most powerful political office. I felt thrown under the bus by the guy who is is supposed to represent the entire American people. I would discuss this point further, but I am going to get some rest. Peace.

You took the comment out of context.

He didn't insult the citizens and it didn't manifest as throwing you under the best.

He was saying that America has some fault in the sour interactions of countries. If you want to completely disregard the context just to feel offended, then that's your choice. But that doesn't change the meaning of his comments.

I don't take offense to much. I normally try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I find much of the political shenanigans of attacking president Obama through any means possible to be ridiculously absurd. But in the particular instance of numerous comments Obama made, I did not really see an alternative context. I'm seriously going to bed now. Twelve hour shift starts in seven hours. Later.

I really think that the offense that is taken when it comes to Obama's comments and what not come from a misunderstanding about how many progressives are.

I am probably more progressive than Obama is and it is that progressiveness that enables me to understand why he says the things he does.

Progressives are generally focused on admitting faults so that we can improve and build bridges. This is why I had no beef with the sentiment that America has acted arrogantly before. I find that to be unequivocal truth and to me, ignoring the truth in favor of comfortable lies is intellectually dishonest no matter what venue one is in.

Though there are progressives that care about the traditions and conservatives that are not concerned, progressives generally don't care as much about American symbolism and traditions as we care about the people that make up the country and their needs. In other words, those things are abstract in comparison to the actual people.

Progressives are generally all about inclusiveness and diversity. So of course a comment about how America is a nation of all faiths is not going to bother us. It is an inclusiveness statement. I don't know why it would offend anyone unless they want their faith to represent everybody.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

That exact topic is great deal of what the letter touched on. At least half of it. Unless you differentiate speeches in/to other countries and the like to not be foreign policy. (in all honesty, I am not precisely sure how that is supposed to be categorized. P.R. perhaps?) I found the way president Obama portrayed America with some of his remarks during speeches in other nations to simply be degrading, and unacceptable from our nation's most powerful political office. I felt thrown under the bus by the guy who is is supposed to represent the entire American people. I would discuss this point further, but I am going to get some rest. Peace.

coolbeans90

You took the comment out of context.

He didn't insult the citizens and it didn't manifest as throwing you under the best.

He was saying that America has some fault in the sour interactions of countries. If you want to completely disregard the context just to feel offended, then that's your choice. But that doesn't change the meaning of his comments.

I don't take offense to much. I normally try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I find much of the political shenanigans of attacking president Obama through any means possible to be ridiculously absurd. But in the particular instance of numerous comments Obama made, I did really see an alternative context. I'm seriously going to bed now. Twelve hour shift starts in seven hours. Later.

I stated the context.

But since you're going to bed, I won't continue argue with you. Have a good night.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I honestly don't know if Obama loves the country or not. I'm not stating anything regarding his personal love of the country as fact because that wouldn't make sense. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt until someone can provide something beyond tenuous trivialities, like I would do for any President and like I have done for every President.Alright then..i don't give people the benefit of the doubt.

You're not going to see definitive proof. And tell me what definitive proof you say with any of the other Presidents. We're talking about Obama..and it's fairly easy to tell if one loves his country...i don't see any other presidents bungling anything in regards to reciting the Anthem..and i don't see any other presidents declaring we are a Muslim Nation..or something along those lines..

I'll concede that you have a point that you can interpret him however you like, but I can also question the wiseness of doing so on such flimsy evidence.

As far as Obama and traditions are concerned, you said that Obama doesn't know about traditions. I asked you to demonstrate that he doesn't. He is an educated man. Why wouldn't he know about them? Whether he cares about them is a different story. Well caring should be one of his concerns...as it shows he has taken the time to learn them..

When you say that you don't understand what I mean, I'm saying that if I'm questioning your policy of using your personal opinion on what is respect to guage his personal love for the country, that does not require my own opinion. Ok, so...?

I didn't ask "why is this one important"? I questioned why that it was a big political mistakes speaks to inherent importance of the action or lack thereof. Because as i said..many view it as not only traditional..but as respectful as well..and by not honoring it one could say he is disregarding the history of the country..even the country itself..as that is what the flag is interpreted as symbolising generally..

GreySeal9

It's fine if you don't give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a very powerful reason our own justice system does. Hooray for the justice system..letting people like OJ Simpson run free..

First of all, it was a single incident. And I didn't say whether he cared or not. I just said that that was another story. You implied that he didn't know them and I wanted to know why you thought that was true. Because he obviously doesn't..hell..he doesn't even know anything about the man he idolizes (Abe Lincoln)..if he did...Lincoln would not be his idol...

Actually, it's not easy to tell if one loves their country or not. It is actually a complex issue and sometimes love for one's country is not absolute for valid reasons. There are grey areas. It is not black and white. Why is the use of simplifying the issues? Because in simplifying we get the just of what one is attemtping to state without going into a diatribe..

You can take it as disregarding the history of the country, but that doesn't mean that it was an intentional disregarded or that he doesn't love the country. Have you ever considered that his love for the country might be a little less absolute than your own, but still there. Or that his vision of what constitutes love for the country may be different than yours? His should be more then mine if he is going to be head of the country..and we can't really say what he intends to be honest..as i have been stating..

I commend his bravery and honestly, but I do not necessarily agree with himclayron

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Xx_Hopeless_xX

It's fine if you don't give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a very powerful reason our own justice system does. Hooray for the justice system..letting people like OJ Simpson run free..

First of all, it was a single incident. And I didn't say whether he cared or not. I just said that that was another story. You implied that he didn't know them and I wanted to know why you thought that was true. Because he obviously doesn't..hell..he doesn't even know anything about the man he idolizes (Abe Lincoln)..if he did...Lincoln would not be his idol...

Actually, it's not easy to tell if one loves their country or not. It is actually a complex issue and sometimes love for one's country is not absolute for valid reasons. There are grey areas. It is not black and white. Why is the use of simplifying the issues? Because in simplifying we get the just of what one is attemtping to state without going into a diatribe..

You can take it as disregarding the history of the country, but that doesn't mean that it was an intentional disregarded or that he doesn't love the country. Have you ever considered that his love for the country might be a little less absolute than your own, but still there. Or that his vision of what constitutes love for the country may be different than yours? His should be more then mine if he is going to be head of the country..and we can't really say what he intends to be honest..as i have been stating..

That OJ Simpson comment is nothing but an appeal to emotion. Yes, criminals will get off sometimes. But out Justice System has an extremely high standard of "proof" so that innocent people aren't jailed.

Saying he obviously doesn't is not proof, it's a proof surrogate, a proof substitute. Explain why he doesn't. What indicates that he doesn't know anything about Lincoln. You have no idea what Lincoln thinks of Obama as he's dead. Please let's not get into the silliness of assuming what dead people think.

You're not getting any jist, you are assuming. And you are making a complex issue black and white. It is not a virtue.

You can say what his "love level" should be, but it remains a complicated issue with many factors. I don't think unconditional love for a country is healthy, no matter what your position. Why must this be such a black and white issue?

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

It's fine if you don't give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a very powerful reason our own justice system does. Hooray for the justice system..letting people like OJ Simpson run free..

First of all, it was a single incident. And I didn't say whether he cared or not. I just said that that was another story. You implied that he didn't know them and I wanted to know why you thought that was true. Because he obviously doesn't..hell..he doesn't even know anything about the man he idolizes (Abe Lincoln)..if he did...Lincoln would not be his idol...

Actually, it's not easy to tell if one loves their country or not. It is actually a complex issue and sometimes love for one's country is not absolute for valid reasons. There are grey areas. It is not black and white. Why is the use of simplifying the issues? Because in simplifying we get the just of what one is attemtping to state without going into a diatribe..

You can take it as disregarding the history of the country, but that doesn't mean that it was an intentional disregarded or that he doesn't love the country. Have you ever considered that his love for the country might be a little less absolute than your own, but still there. Or that his vision of what constitutes love for the country may be different than yours? His should be more then mine if he is going to be head of the country..and we can't really say what he intends to be honest..as i have been stating..

GreySeal9

That OJ Simpson comment is nothing but an appeal to emotion. Yes, criminals will get off sometimes. But out Justice System has an extremely high standard of "proof" so that innocent people aren't jailed. It wasn't an appeal to anything...it was stating that the justice system isn't perfect and using an example as proof..

Saying he obviously doesn't is not proof, it's a proof surrogate, a proof substitute. Explain why he doesn't. What indicates that he doesn't know anything about Lincoln. You have no idea what Lincoln thinks of Obama as he's dead. Please let's not get into the silliness of assuming what dead people think. I never said i assumed...he holds Lincoln up as a great abolotionist..when he wasn't..

You're not getting any jist, you are assuming. And you are making a complex issue black and white. It is not a virtue. Alright then good for me..except i never stated it was not a complex issue..

You can say what his "love level" should be, but it remains a complicated issue with many factors. I don't think unconditional love for a country is healthy, no matter what your position. Why must this be such a black and white issue? I never said unconditional love was anything that should be vouched for..i said he should love his country more then i do or at least as much as the average american..which in my opinion he does not appear to..

I don't think i agreed with a single thing up until about half way where i just rolled my eyes and stopped reading it. Being 95 does not make you automatically wise, nor does it make your opinions on the world news worthy. "You told lies saying America is not a christian nation". Sorry fella, America isn't a Christian nation. Then after that he seems to just on off on some Fox News diatribe about how Obama isn't patriotic and god forbid, doesn't LOVE AMERICA ENOUGH. Ninja-Hippo

I think the notion that people must love America unconditionally is ridiculous.

Based on one's experiences, many people will have a complex relationship with this country as far as "loving it" is concerned, especially minorities.

I actually think that loving one's country too much is unhealthy. I think that it often clouds people's moral judgment and is the kind of mindset that allows for atrocities to go unchecked.

I don't see what is wrong with a more balanced viewpoint.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Xx_Hopeless_xX

That OJ Simpson comment is nothing but an appeal to emotion. Yes, criminals will get off sometimes. But out Justice System has an extremely high standard of "proof" so that innocent people aren't jailed. It wasn't an appeal to anything...it was stating that the justice system isn't perfect and using an example as proof..

Saying he obviously doesn't is not proof, it's a proof surrogate, a proof substitute. Explain why he doesn't. What indicates that he doesn't know anything about Lincoln. You have no idea what Lincoln thinks of Obama as he's dead. Please let's not get into the silliness of assuming what dead people think. I never said i assumed...he holds Lincoln up as a great abolotionist..when he wasn't..

You're not getting any jist, you are assuming. And you are making a complex issue black and white. It is not a virtue. Alright then good for me..except i never stated it was not a complex issue..

You can say what his "love level" should be, but it remains a complicated issue with many factors. I don't think unconditional love for a country is healthy, no matter what your position. Why must this be such a black and white issue? I never said unconditional love was anything that should be vouched for..i said he should love his country more then i do or at least as much as the average american..which in my opinion he does not appear to..

Of course the justice system is not perfect. Nothing is perfect. But there is a very important reason why it is it based on benefit of doubt.

Well, can you show the original quotes when he said Lincoln was a great abolitionist. If you can produce those, I'll concede that his view of Lincoln is flawed (Obama does get stuff wrong). However, this doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about Lincoln. Also, when I was talking about assumptions, I was talking about your statement that Lincoln wouldn't want to be his idol. He's dead, so it doesn't make sense that assume that.

Everything you've said about this issue indicates that you don't treat it as a complex one. I mean, I could be wrong. Maybe you do think its a complex issue. But it sure doesn't show in your posts.

Who the average American? How much love should the average American have? How do you account for one's own experiences and how they factor into one's love of the country?

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

That OJ Simpson comment is nothing but an appeal to emotion. Yes, criminals will get off sometimes. But out Justice System has an extremely high standard of "proof" so that innocent people aren't jailed. It wasn't an appeal to anything...it was stating that the justice system isn't perfect and using an example as proof..

Saying he obviously doesn't is not proof, it's a proof surrogate, a proof substitute. Explain why he doesn't. What indicates that he doesn't know anything about Lincoln. You have no idea what Lincoln thinks of Obama as he's dead. Please let's not get into the silliness of assuming what dead people think. I never said i assumed...he holds Lincoln up as a great abolotionist..when he wasn't..

You're not getting any jist, you are assuming. And you are making a complex issue black and white. It is not a virtue. Alright then good for me..except i never stated it was not a complex issue..

You can say what his "love level" should be, but it remains a complicated issue with many factors. I don't think unconditional love for a country is healthy, no matter what your position. Why must this be such a black and white issue? I never said unconditional love was anything that should be vouched for..i said he should love his country more then i do or at least as much as the average american..which in my opinion he does not appear to..

GreySeal9

Of course the justice system is not perfect. Nothing is perfect. But there is a very important reason why it is it based on benefit of doubt. Well that's great that they have a "very important reason"..

Well, can you show the original quotes when he said Lincoln was a great abolitionist. If you can produce those, I'll concede that his view of Lincoln is flawed (Obama does get stuff wrong). However, this doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about Lincoln. Also, when I was talking about assumptions, I was talking about your statement that Lincoln wouldn't want to be his idol. He's dead, so it doesn't make sense that assume that. Maybe he would have..but his statements in regards to the black race leads one to assume he wouldn't much care but then again..assumptions are a "no no"..also, "reminded (Obama) audiences from coast to coast about the similarities between himself and the beloved political leader."..Why would you want to be similar to Lincoln..is Obama Emancipating the slaves..or botching up the chances to avoid a civil war?....And i do not have the exact quote..and i never stated it was an exact quote regardless..that is the general attitude when one brings up the name Lincoln..is it not?..

Everything you've said about this issue indicates that you don't treat it as a complex one. I mean, I could be wrong. Maybe you do think its a complex issue. But it sure doesn't show in your posts. And the point of this was what...?

Who the average American? How much love should the average American have? How do you account for one's own experiences and how they factor into one's love of the country? The average americans are the ones who go out and work and such..the middle group of people..the one's that earn an average wage and so on..and they should love their Country to a degree in which they'd be willing to fight for it...And as i said..generally speaking..meaning..not including those of which you mentioned...naturally not everyone will love their country..but if one wants to lead said country shouldn't one have a fair degree of love for it to be able to ascertain what would be best for it?..

[QUOTE="67gt500"]When a man like this opines, every man, woman and child on this planet should stop, shut up and listen - even a President. No, especially a President... worlock77

Why should we care about his opinion any more than anyone else's?

Yeah it does. If I feel no insult at it then it is not an insult to me. It takes a little more than a gesture of respect from some guy I don't know to some other guy I don't know to insult me.

worlock77

He isn't "some guy I don't know" bowing before "some other guy I don't know". He is the President of the United States, our head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces, grovelling like a worm in the rain before the head of state of a foreign nation.

Now, you might not feel insulted by the sight of your head of state prostrating himself in honor of a foreign ruler, but that is only because you do not percieve the magnitude of act and how it damages the honor of our nation.

When on "bows" before another, then the person that is bowing is demonstrating subservience and hierarchical inferiority. A head of state represents his entire nation. When the head of state of one nation bows before the head of state of another, then his nation bows with him. The head of state that bows is presenting his nation as subservient and hierarchically inferior.

When the President of the United States bows, we all, as Americans, bow whether we like it or not.

When Obama bowed before the king of Saudi Arabia, the United States of America bowed with him. For this, I am insulted, and anyone with any understanding of honor should feel insulted, as well. Firstly, because we are the United States of America, and we are subservient to none. Secondly, because Saudi Arabia represents the antithesis of the core principles of the United States of America. I have absolutely no respect for the state of Saudi Arabia or its putrid royal family. That our President, a man that is supposed to represent me and my fellow Americans, would bow before such a disgusting man as the king of Saudi Arabia, stains our nation's honor and shames our standard. Morever, by committing such an act, the President misrepresents the nation that he is supposed to represent. I would never bow before such a villanous king, and I resent that a so-called "President" that claims to represent me would do so on my behalf.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Yeah it does. If I feel no insult at it then it is not an insult to me. It takes a little more than a gesture of respect from some guy I don't know to some other guy I don't know to insult me.

dkrustyklown

He isn't "some guy I don't know" bowing before "some other guy I don't know". He is the President of the United States, our head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces, grovelling like a worm in the rain before the head of state of a foreign nation.

Now, you might not feel insulted by the sight of your head of state prostrating himself in honor of a foreign ruler, but that is only because you do not percieve the magnitude of act and how it damages the honor of our nation.

When on "bows" before another, then the person that is bowing is demonstrating subservience and hierarchical inferiority. A head of state represents his entire nation. When the head of state of one nation bows before the head of state of another, then his nation bows with him. The head of state that bows is presenting his nation as subservient and hierarchically inferior.

When the President of the United States bows, we all, as Americans, bow whether we like it or not.

When Obama bowed before the king of Saudi Arabia, the United States of America bowed with him. For this, I am insulted, and anyone with any understanding of honor should feel insulted, as well. Firstly, because we are the United States of America, and we are subservient to none. Secondly, because Saudi Arabia represents the antithesis of the core principles of the United States of America. I have absolutely no respect for the state of Saudi Arabia or its putrid royal family. That our President, a man that is supposed to represent me and my fellow Americans, would bow before such a disgusting man as the king of Saudi Arabia, stains our nation's honor and shames our standard. Morever, by committing such an act, the President misrepresents the nation that he is supposed to represent. I would never bow before such a villanous king, and I resent that a so-called "President" that claims to represent me would do so on my behalf.

that really depends on the culture.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]It was an appeal to emotion for more than just those words....

No I wouldn't call it a despicable lie. The US is still mostly Christian.......

What points? That you don't agree? That does not cIassify as a point.

LJS9502_basic

If you're sure that it was an appeal to emotion, why don't you explain why? Your words don't go without saying.

Again, you are playing the dishonest game of trying to boil my point down to something that it wasn't.

Also, since when are disagreements mutually exclusive from points? A disagreement often manifests as a point.

What I am saying is: if we are indeed a nation of all faiths, which is true, in no way can Obama's statement be a despicable lie. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.

Also, yes, the US is mostly Christian, but how does that conflict with the statement that we are a nation of all faiths?

Ad hominem attacks are rarely the way to make a point....

Christianity is the most common faith but that does not make it correct to call America a Christian nation, nor is it correct...

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"]When a man like this opines, every man, woman and child on this planet should stop, shut up and listen - even a President. No, especially a President... 67gt500

Why should we care about his opinion any more than anyone else's?

Poor analogy is poor. Ok, now tell me why should I value this man's opinion over, say, that of my grandfather's who has nearly 100 years of experience and also risked his life in service to this country.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"]When a man like this opines, every man, woman and child on this planet should stop, shut up and listen - even a President. No, especially a President... 67gt500

Why should we care about his opinion any more than anyone else's?

Yes, I would rather take golfing advice from tiger woods, some one with considerable experience i nthe field.

This guy's military history doesn't automatically make his oppinions more correct or valid than any one else's.

This is just another letter some one wrote that is critical of obama. It isn't special just because of who wrote it.

[QUOTE="dkrustyklown"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Yeah it does. If I feel no insult at it then it is not an insult to me. It takes a little more than a gesture of respect from some guy I don't know to some other guy I don't know to insult me.

Serraph105

He isn't "some guy I don't know" bowing before "some other guy I don't know". He is the President of the United States, our head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces, grovelling like a worm in the rain before the head of state of a foreign nation.

Now, you might not feel insulted by the sight of your head of state prostrating himself in honor of a foreign ruler, but that is only because you do not percieve the magnitude of act and how it damages the honor of our nation.

When on "bows" before another, then the person that is bowing is demonstrating subservience and hierarchical inferiority. A head of state represents his entire nation. When the head of state of one nation bows before the head of state of another, then his nation bows with him. The head of state that bows is presenting his nation as subservient and hierarchically inferior.

When the President of the United States bows, we all, as Americans, bow whether we like it or not.

When Obama bowed before the king of Saudi Arabia, the United States of America bowed with him. For this, I am insulted, and anyone with any understanding of honor should feel insulted, as well. Firstly, because we are the United States of America, and we are subservient to none. Secondly, because Saudi Arabia represents the antithesis of the core principles of the United States of America. I have absolutely no respect for the state of Saudi Arabia or its putrid royal family. That our President, a man that is supposed to represent me and my fellow Americans, would bow before such a disgusting man as the king of Saudi Arabia, stains our nation's honor and shames our standard. Morever, by committing such an act, the President misrepresents the nation that he is supposed to represent. I would never bow before such a villanous king, and I resent that a so-called "President" that claims to represent me would do so on my behalf.

that really depends on the culture.

I don't think i agreed with a single thing up until about half way where i just rolled my eyes and stopped reading it. Being 95 does not make you automatically wise, nor does it make your opinions on the world news worthy. "You told lies saying America is not a christian nation". Sorry fella, America isn't a Christian nation.Ninja-Hippo

No.

I think that we need more citizens/vets like him, we should not be afraid to speak out against Obama !ZombiefiedZomB

Oh yeah because Obama has made it sooo hard to speak out against him:roll:

[QUOTE="ZombiefiedZomB"]I think that we need more citizens/vets like him, we should not be afraid to speak out against Obama !Ingenemployee

Oh yeah because Obama has made it sooo hard to speak out against him:roll:

[QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

[QUOTE="ZombiefiedZomB"]I think that we need more citizens/vets like him, we should not be afraid to speak out against Obama !Snipes_2

Oh yeah because Obama has made it sooo hard to speak out against him:roll:

How does that limit any one from speaking out against Obama?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

Oh yeah because Obama has made it sooo hard to speak out against him:roll:

Ingenemployee

How does that limit any one from speaking out against Obama?

[QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] He addressed and poked fun at the Tea Party...How lame can you get? :lol:Snipes_2

How does that limit any one from speaking out against Obama?

Has that stoped anyone?

[QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] He addressed and poked fun at the Tea Party...How lame can you get? :lol:Snipes_2

How does that limit any one from speaking out against Obama?

Why should the president not be allowed to speak about them in any way he pleaseslest he is labeled as "limiting" those that he speaks about/against?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

How does that limit any one from speaking out against Obama?

Ingenemployee

Has that stoped anyone?

Gotta give it to him for speaking his mind!!!

However, I dont necessarily agree with his entire standpoint of the criticism because, well, it's not all Obama's fault soley.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

How does that limit any one from speaking out against Obama?

Teenaged

Why should the president not be allowed to speak about them in any way he pleaseslest he is labeled as "limiting" those that he speaks about/against?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You will be ridiculed by him on T.v.?Snipes_2

Why should the president not be allowed to speak about them in any way he pleaseslest he is labeled as "limiting" those that he speaks about/against?

By the same mindset, we should take all criticism or negative comments as indirect silencing of the person/people it is directed at.

But that is definitely not what we (should) do, now is it...

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]I don't think i agreed with a single thing up until about half way where i just rolled my eyes and stopped reading it. Being 95 does not make you automatically wise, nor does it make your opinions on the world news worthy. "You told lies saying America is not a christian nation". Sorry fella, America isn't a Christian nation.twitchmonkey399

No.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]That is still not limiting them from speaking out against him.

Why should the president not be allowed to speak about them in any way he pleaseslest he is labeled as "limiting" those that he speaks about/against?

Teenaged

By the same mindset, we should take all criticism or negative comments as indirect silencing of the person/people it is directed at.

But that is definitely not what we (should) do, now is it...

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] It's not Literally forcing them to not say anything...I never said he did..I'm saying that it may scare some people off. Snipes_2

By the same mindset, we should take all criticism or negative comments as indirect silencing of the person/people it is directed at.

But that is definitely not what we (should) do, now is it...

Calling it direct silencing is beyond my imagination of exaggeration.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] It's not Literally forcing them to not say anything...I never said he did..I'm saying that it may scare some people off. Snipes_2

By the same mindset, we should take all criticism or negative comments as indirect silencing of the person/people it is directed at.

But that is definitely not what we (should) do, now is it...