War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

I wish my country would invest more. And your numbers are wrong.

And no one is demanding anything from the US. The US does this on their own accord. Because the US does have a fairly strong grasp on geopolitics.

@Maroxad: i think maybe there is a point in trying to get france, Germany, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands to invest more in help to Ukraine.

But the help will definitely have a positive effects in preventing further invasions anyway.

Europe get the luxury of dealing with the Ukrainian refugees. That cost is going to add up. @Maroxad And you guys are doing a better job than Norway there.

Perhaps the Republican users here forget that by helping Ukraine, you get to empty the Russian military of military equipment that will hurt them for years to come. They depend on the West for lots of their higher technology weapons and armory.

However I believe China will make full use of that and get Russia to do their bidding to some extent.

Oh I agree on that part.

Not only will investing in Ukraine prevent us from wasting money on all the other costs related to war (deployment, increased soldiery, local infrastructure damages, ect). But a defeat in Ukraine will humiliate Russia. Putin, will most likely lose any remaining political capital, and will be powerless to mobilize the country for any future invasions.

So yes, we europeans should invest more in Ukraine, so Ukraine can continue defending US.

Edit: Another thing to consider is that China is observing this war, for their own ambitions. If we show China what a United front can do against a belligerent empire, that reduces risk of them invading Taiwan. And it is in our best interests to keep Taiwan away from the CCP. Considering their microsoft industry.

Especially if you want a PS5.

Again, Russia isn't our problem. At best, they're your problem, and that's your money that funded their equipment in the first place. They are a problem you created for yourselves that we have to come in and save you from.

@Maroxad: we see this the same way.

There is no scenario in which Russia will lose the war.

I fully support the current track of action, and in my opinion western support should even be substantially increased, but people need to understand that there's no scenario in which Russia will concede defeat to the world, less even for their own people. They'll just throw their own people (ethnic minority preferably) into the war like coal into a furnace because that's the Russian way of dealing with people. Russian lives are worth nothing to the ruling class. And I don't believe Ukraine or any western leader actually believes that is possible to defeat Russia without a full on war.

This is about making Russia and Putin pay for his actions and try to give Ukraine the possibility to exist. But eastern Ukraine is either lost for good or will be a never ending war zone. And I hope western leaders understand that they have until the next US election to achieve something, because if Republicans elect again a populist leader like Trump they'll drop Ukraine unto Russia's hands in an heart beat.

Russia wont admit defeat, but they will most likely move goal posts to a point where they can claim mission accomplished while having achieved none of their war goals.

@Maroxad: That they already did. It was supposed to be a quick operation that now lasts for more than 100 days. They were kicked out the outskirts of Kiev to the far east and lost many high ranking officers along with troops and military material... I mean, the amount of failures piles on.

But also, in a way, if they end up with control of the east, that will be a victory for them, even if they had to accumulate a ton of unnecessary losses on their way. Also, looking at Russian history and how they deal with failure, having an "humiliating victory" won't be seen as such a colossal **** up as it would be if it was basically any other 1st world nation. It takes a special mind frame to endure living on a constant cycle of just being miserable at the hands of your rulers and accepting that as part of your destiny.

What we are going to see is that the Ukrainians are on a counter attack (they are right now) and will most likely take back a good chunk of land currently occupied by Russia.

Between the Brain Drain, depleting youth, Putin's Cancer, low birth Rate, this is not a war Russia can continue for long. Sooner or political instability in Russia will kick in.

@Maroxad: I don't understand why you think this is a war Russia can't continue...

Looking at maps showing where Ukraine has control, Russia seems to be taking control of a lot of ground.

I don't like that

But I'm just being real about it. How can Ukraine continue this but Russia can't???

You do realize that succeeding in an invasion is not akin to winning a war, right?

And time is NOT on Russia's side: Putin has cancer, the generals and oligarchs are dying at an alarming rate, the youth are being sent off to war, the intellectuals are fleeing the country and the birth rate is among the worst in the world.

Ukraine has the backing of pretty much the entire western world. And Ukrainian troops have far greater morale, compared to the dismal morale of the Russians.

Worse yet for Russia. They seem to have learnt nothing. They are still relying on tanks as a main force, they ignore logistics, their artillery is heavily neglected. They rely on massive human numbers, rather than real strategy.

@sargentd: Russia has control of about 20% of Ukraine and this is what you see in the maps. What you don't see is that more than half of that they have controlled since 2014. Also, of the remaining portion a considerable amount in the south around Kherson was captured in the first few days. Notably because Ukraine failed to blow key bridges even though they were pre-rigged and there is speculation that local leaders were either traitors or spineless.

The actual territory won by combat since Feb 24th is modest especially given the total forces involved.

@SUD123456: @Maroxad:

Do you believe Ukraine is winning? and will win this war against Russia when all is done?

I'm not as sure as you guys. From what I'm seeing I see Russia winning unless NATO countries decide to just jump in and start fighting themselves. Which would be WW3.

Back to the original topic, the West is guilty of enabling the economic chaos in the years that immediately followed the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Treating Russia like the wild west of business instead of helping them manage an orderly transition is what led to thugs becoming billionaires overnight, effectively stealing everything from 95% of the population.

It is a mafia country, run by mob bosses and Putin is simply the head of the snake. Unfortunately he is also a strong nationalist unlike most of the others that are more about extreme wealth, coke, yachts and hookers. And sports of course.

Russia already is a US problem with all their meddling in your affairs.

Russia still has plenty of young cannon fodder to throw at this war. I think they will run out of modern weapons before young soldiers.

I hope the West is prepared to be supporting Ukraine for months to come when it comes to the war. And for years/decades when it comes to rebuilding the country afterwards.

Europe has bigger issues like celebrating that old fart and her time on the throne! Seriously though, it would be nice to see Germany, UK and France step up for once rather than half-assing it.

Anyone who thinks Putin is going all out is a fool.

@horgen: By that I just mean domestic issues. I already suspect the main reason Russia wont just flat out declare a full on war, is to maintain some political stability.

But yes, I dont get the isolationist beliefs held here by some. But I guess if they dont understand how interconnected the modern economy is. It does explain why people are blaming Biden for expensive gas.

If Russia is a problem for Europe, it is by extension a problem for the US, which relies on democratically friendly governments to conduct effective trade. Your post posits a position whereas the US exists in a vacuum where impacts to the global community have no effect on the US.

The old senile man who doesn't know which day it is or where he is somehow sets the gas prices around the globe. Remarkable.

Some of the pro "war" propagandists are testing the water for calling it war. It will make it easier to mobilize people for it. I think.

Ukraine is not a US ally. Ukraine is not a NATO ally.

Ukraine used to be a Soviet state. Ukraine is one of the poorest European countries and has been known for corruption much like Russia.

I don't give a shit about Ukraine or Russia.

Does that make me bad?

@sargentd: I mean, when read a bunch of Russian soldiers have been raping children to death, I kinda give a shit. Or just, rape sprees in general.

It's like, universally bad. Even when it happened to legit Nazis in Berlin.

@uninspiredcup: I bet Ukraine got rapists too. They can both be bad. I don't like either of these nations.

Good thing then this board is about a lot more than just US politics. Why do you think non-US citizens post here?

And nah, it just means you have weird priorities. But we already knew this.

While you moan about secularism and people moving away from religion, I look at geopolitics. When you are disagreeing with the scientific consensus on Transgender validity, I read up on the latest Climate Change news. When you fuzz over political left-right tribalism, I concern myself with the housing crisis which drives a lot of political extremism to begin with. And when you fearmonger CRT, I look at the 11 (12 with Ukraine) ongoing genocides and weep.

@Maroxad: I feel the same about you.

We have very different priorities. I find yours weird myself.

My biggest focus is on the US economy.

Inflation mainly

Supply chain issues

Energy/fuel costs

Food costs

Inflation of building materials

And protecting our constitution and freedoms within it.

Yeah climate change isn't in my list of top priorities. That's fine if it's in yours.

Transgenderism is a mental disorder. I don't really give a shit about it. Just don't want this ideology pushed on little kids. Adults can do what ever they want but they can't make people call them something.

Race is arbitrary and not important at all. Nothing with race is in my priorities. I find racial identity politics toxic and divisive.

And yeah **** Russia And **** Ukraine.

I think this is beyond culture. I am quite a conservative person for today's standards and would support the republicans if there was no populist wave.

But i do think that punishing invasions is the correct course of action to prevent further ones. Not that you cant do some concessions to Russia, like not putting offensive weapons near their borders.

But everyone got harmed by military actions of this kind, just like everyone got harmed by the invasion of Iraq. And everyone would be harmed even further if Taiwan is attacked militarily.

So making a relatively small investment (compared to participating directly in a war) to dissuade further wars is a win win situation for every one. For liberals and conservatives. Even for the common people in Russia and China.

@nirgal: if the US can't even supply it's citizens with baby formula they shouldn't be sending 50+ billion in Aide to Ukraine. A crooked nation that isn't a US ally.

Maybe those babies should be pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps instead of asking for government handouts.

@HoolaHoopMan: stupid

@HoolaHoopMan: that crook Zelensky needs to stop begging for US handouts. Take care of your own shit. We aren't allies.

Why? The GOP wouldn't even budge over the paltry sum of 28 million to support easing the formula shortage, one of which you personally admonished in another thread. I'm having a hard time nailing down what you're advocating here, since it clearly isn't anything to help actual children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/19/republicans-baby-formula/

How is he crooked?

@sargentd: those are different topics and the government should be able to do more than one thing at once.

From that point of view, they would just stop financing everything else until the baby formula problem is resolved.

@nirgal: no just don't give 54 billion to Ukraine. It's really as simple as that. Don't give up 54 billion to a crooked country that's not our ally as we are heading into a recession. It's common sense. I was just using that as example. 54 billion can go a long way at fixing things at home. Ukraine greased us and the politicians don't care because those weapon contracts will make them rich while Americans get screwed. Classic.

@sargentd: it wasn't money that was given to them. It was military equipment.

A large part of the us budget is devoted anyway to funding that equipment and the time in which that equipment can be useful has come.

What's the point of having spent that money building that if its not used when its needed?

Is it pride more important than avoiding future wars?

If the west shows weaknesses now and that results in further wars, is the money spent for those wars going to be counted?

If you are so offended about those 54billons of dollars in equipment being sent to Ukraine, why were you not offended when the us military funded that equipment and actually spent the military budget?

What did you think they were going to be used for?

Where you expecting them to remain inside of warehouses if Russia attempted to expand towards the west?

So you would agree it is a social construct then? Cool, because I remember you reacting badly to people who pointed that out in the past.

In any case, if you are sincere, I am glad I was mistaken about you. Those ARE real issues.

Still, I would argue this war is more important than anything else right now, because if we leave Ukraine alone, Russia will become a bigger threat down the line.

Edit: One thing I will say though is that several of the things you listed are in part a direct consequence of this war, notably the underlined stuff.

@Maroxad: thanks, yeah I'm being genuine

I'd argue food costs and energy costs were rising already before this Ukraine Russia war.

I'd say the piss poor management of locking everything down durring COVID and just printing money did not help at all. We were already dealing with inflation and shortages before Ukraine was invaded. Sure it can contribute to it, but it was not the cause. I see our current government trying to pass the buck on to Russia constantly though. Because I believe those in charge are incompetent and don't want to address it in a sincere way. So they just put it all on Russia. That's what I believe anyway.

As far as the race thing I've been very vocal how I hate identity politics in this forum. So I don't know what you are referring too. I don't think I would call it a social construct. But I'd say it's arbitrary and gets way too much attention.

Do you think the people who manufactured that equipment is giving it to them for free? And let's see how many senators have family members on the boards of, or holding investments in those companies before we pretend they volunteered $40 billion of someone else's money without any self interests attached.

The fuel price crisis we have right now is an international issue. Every country is hit by it. There is no need to pin blame on Biden when we have actual reasons for it.

Russia and the OPEC countries (OPEC+) are by and large the ones to blame. You have been showered with evidence of this in the other thread so I dont need to go through it again. The other reason is that shale oil corporations simply have no reason to drill more resources, why spend more money, when they can spend less and still get the same profits?

The American economy does not exist in a vacuum independent of the rest of the world. The global economy is primarily what drives the economy of every country. Including the US. The global economy has a far bigger impact than what any single president has. This ensuring political stability across the globe is important. Especially against bad actors like Russia. Things were bad prior to russia, but the ukraine crisis arguably had a worse impact on the fuel cost situation than Biden ever did.

As for the lockdowns, even Sweden, which barely had any lockdowns, was hit just as hard as the other countries. This is because Crude Oil is an internationally traded resource. Same with grains and other crops. And Ukraine is a key exporter of grain in the international market.

The point is, Ukraine and Russia's conflict has already left a mark on the international economy. If your interests are in the US economy, not caring about ukraine is not a wise move.

Another aspect is also that China is still going on and off on lockdowns. People complain about tariffs and maybe they have an effect, but when production gets interrupted frequently, and they add a ton of regulatory oversight to stop the spread of the virus the costs go up.

This new trend of isolationism and desire for authoritarianism is suicidal and legitimately the most dangerous ideology plaguing western politics. The complete lack of understanding of global dynamics, the utter indifference for human suffering, deeply influenced by Trump as a vehicle for partisanship wars, will be something the history books will remember.

Can't get this argument, or comment really.

The other thing potentially bad, doesn't cancel-out or justify the worst acts of humanity. And I doubt the 9-year-old girl getting raped to death has much of a political opinion on the matter.

Seen a few (lets call them what they are right-wing MAGA) with an attitude of "not my problem", under the impression, shouting out apathy doesn't equate to being complicit, or in a more general terms, make (said) persons a horrible shit.

@uninspiredcup: we got people getting raped and killed in my own country. I'm sorry man your not going to pitty party Ukraine using rape to get me to get all riled up for the US helping extend war between Ukraine and Russia.

Sounds like what ever article you read accomplished that with you. You read something emotional and sad and now your pro war.

@sargentd: Now saying "bad things happen here so bad thing over there no matter". Using the term "pitty party", to discribe children being raped to death.

Donno if this like, registering?

@uninspiredcup: you have have been propagandized. Child was raped, send billions in weapons to Ukraine. Don't ask questions.

Until recently Lyudmila Denisova worked as Ukraine’s human rights chief and main propagandist, but she has now been fired after outside groups have been able to uncover zero evidence to support the multiple allegations of mass rape Denisova lodged against invading Russian forces. Denisova’s propaganda was widely disseminated in the west and parroted by the pro-Ukraine corporate media in the United States.

Ukrainian lawmakers dismissed the country’s ombudsman for human rights, Lyudmyla Denisova, in a no-confidence vote on Tuesday, concluding that she had failed to fulfill obligations including the facilitation of humanitarian corridors and countering the deportation of Ukrainians from occupied territory.

Lawmaker Pavlo Frolov said Ms. Denisova was also accused of making insensitive and unverifiable statements about alleged Russian sex crimes and spending too much time in Western Europe during the invasion.

“The unclear focus of the Ombudsman's media work on the numerous details of ‘sexual crimes committed in an unnatural way’ and ‘rape of children’ in the occupied territories that could not be confirmed by evidence, only harmed Ukraine,” Mr. Frolov said in a Facebook post.

Some 90 journalists and over 50 other professionals had signed an open letter expressing concern and outrage that Ms. Denisova had been insensitive in her airing of allegations of sexual crimes, particularly those involving children and minors.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe

The letter from the journalists indicated how reports from Denisova went into great detail about the alleged rape of children, some as young as 6 months old, by Russians.

The letter also criticized Denisova for including details of cases that the journalists said were unverified and asked her to "check the facts before publication" and "disclose only information for which there is sufficient evidence."

https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680

He also accuses her of having focused too much on media work, and on describing sexually motivated crimes in gratuitous detail as well as the raping of children in occupied territories. However, some of these accounts, he said, had not been verified, which had harmed Ukraine's reputation and distracted media attention from other, proven crimes and problems.

https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmila-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920

They fired the lying bitch. Good. Fog of War.

people lying about shit like this for support. its sick.

@uninspiredcup: You had people with a similar position towards Hitler. It is what it is.

Why is this thread being allowed to remain open when there are now many different discussions and none of them are actually on topic?

Did someone say something you didn't want to hear or something?

@eoten: yeah, it was the Ukraine faking war crimes part