War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

This thread is more about the War in Ukraine rather than the West's handling of the crisis, which has been pretty poor. And will most likely get worse, if isolationist populists have their way.

I am glad Macron won, because we don't need Russian sympathisers in our governments, who would support Russia making our handling of the situation worse.

Macron is a lesser of two evils, but it's not like he is tough on Putin or Russia either. His resent comments on how he doesn't want to humiliate Putin are worrying. Seems to be a Chamberlain 2.0.

Agreed. But a lesser evil is better than a flat out sympathisizer.

Better someone who does nothing than someone who will most likely end up supporting Russia.

I think there was a window following the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, where Western Governments could have made real progress towards World Peace. Russia wanted to become a NATO member, capitalism was rife and the population enjoyed more freedoms and were generally more pro west than before.
It was too much too soon though. Yeltsin selling off state assets piecemeal didn’t help things and when the person on the street in Russia started feeling the pinch and watching rampant crime on the streets, they began yearning for “The good old days”….which gave rise to Putin.
Can’t see the logic for advancing NATO into previous Eastern Bloc countries when a) the Eastern Bloc doesn’t exist anymore, and b) NATO is supposed to be a purely defensive entity….that only helps Putin’s argument to his people.

I doubt that comes as a surprise.

But hey it isn't like we don't have videos of Russian soldiers going after civilians though.

We've been telling you from the very start to take information out of Ukraine with a grain of salt. We've told you it wouldn't be surprising if they made up crap to try to demonize Russia in an attempt to get more people to side against them, or to fund Ukraine. And so you don't find yourself surprised in the future, a lot of those weapons sent are going to be sold on the black market, politicians in Ukraine are going to pocket a large amount of the money, and some of those weapons will even be used against innocent people.

But you've been so hell-bent on taking Ukraine at face value that you couldn't see any of it, and probably still refuse to realize a lot of it.

Ukraine didn't suddenly stop being one of the most corrupt countries in Europe just because they got invaded.

Funny you arguing against corruption when you also argue against steps to investigate corruption.

In your search for something perfect you ignore everything that can help you along the way and use it as an argument against doing anything until that perfect solution is found.

To EU and NATO Ukraine poses a far smaller threat than Russia. Given that also a lot of the weapons Ukraine gets are already old, it isn't a significant danger to either EU or NATO. The high tech weapons they do get, they also need training in using, and I am pretty sure setting up a working maintenance routine with all that involves isn't being done.

This entire argument of Ukraine being 'corrupt' is ignoring that a large portion of that corruption stemmed from Russian influence, and would likely get worse if they were absorbed by them.

Then again Trump supporters arguing about corruption is about as rich as it gets. They are still advocating for the Big Lie and would have gladly overturned the 2020 election.

Pot meet Kettle.

@HoolaHoopMan: they were a Soviet state untill 1991... They have always been corrupt. Russian influence? They were a Soviet state. What separates how Ukraine functions from Russia? They aren't a stable state, they had a Coup in 2014 which the US and Germany pushed for (That was a mistake and we shouldn't have gotten involved) now Russia wants it back.

The Ukrainian state is a mess. The US shouldn't be involved. This is not a US or NATO ally.

It's like we learned nothing from the Vietnam war. This isn't our fight to be involved with.

Jesus, you sound just like Rand Paul. Ukraine is a separate country and existed well before the Soviet Union. You're regurgitating the same Kremlin talking points that have already made the rounds. And that 'coup' in 2014 were Ukrainians pushing out Putin's puppet DUE TO CORRUPTION. They rid themselves of Yanukovych for a reason. Part of this war and push to maintain an independent Ukraine is to stave off further corruption and satellite control from a mob state. To suggest that Ukraine would someone be less corrupt, or corruption free, under Russian occupation is delusional.

This is why your angle of 'corruption' falls flat on its face. The failure to act would ultimately aid the spread of it. And if we've learned nothing from Trump fans, it's that they're hypocrites when it comes to corruption.

If you want to start talking about corruption, start with some self reflection where your candidate literally tried to extort Ukraine, the country being discussed, for political dirt. Otherwise, GTFO of here with this nonsense.

One of the ridiculous things seen about this is old corrupt Russian politicians talking waffle at Nato and their state run TV complaining about the UK's "provocation", when they literally, already came over here twice and used both chemical and radioactive weapons on our soil killing our citizens.

They've been running rampant and practically mocking our countries for a while with increasing bravado. And now it's bitten back.

It's incredible how the MAGA people became just a vehicle from Russian propaganda. Those ties run deep, no matter how much they want to hide it. You don't get to repeat their propaganda and share much of their values just by accident.

It wasn't exactly a politically correct thing to say, but when Hilary mentioned the "deplorable" she was on to something.

Anyways...

"Russia Orders Arrest of Metro Series Writer"

"While Glukhovsky himself is Russian, the Metro games are developed by Ukranian studio 4A Games. With the war between Russia and Ukraine ongoing, Glukhovsky has come out against the invasion, condemning the act of his home country's army online. While the Metro author is currently living outside of the country, it seems this has not given him utter safety from the eyes of the Russian government, as he has recently been added to the country's wanted list."

https://gamerant.com/metro-writer-russia-wanted-list/

And yet, Europeans, despite being warned, still propped up their economy, and enriched their nation, funding their war machine and their ability to do these things. Why? Maybe Trump isn't the one you should be considering may be too soft on Russia, or working with Putin.

Russia has been provoking us here in Sweden as well. How many fighter jets have they flown over our skies?

While there thankfully havent been any confirmed attacks. Russia have been continously harassing us for a decade or 2 now. Us joining NATO has been something in development for years now.

Two Americans presumably have been captured by Russian forces

Interesting to see what will happen if these two will also get a death penalty like the British fighters got few days ago. Will the US actually do something or will they only wiggle their finger?

Well, The Hague Invasion Act didnt say anything about Russia I think :P

U.S: We don't negotiate Terrorist.

We literally just negotiated for a Marine a few months ago. I guess the guy got drunk and was arrested in Russia and then they're like "Oh you're a a veteran. Better hang on to you in case you're a spy" or some nonsense lol.

Anyway, these folks knew the risks. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get them back but I don't think it should be viewed as some sort of scandal; they were fighting against Russia and got captured.

@Icarian: You'll probably see more powerful weapons being delivered to Ukraine.

Unsure if bumping this old topic or creating a new one is most correct. Some will say the latter.

Anyhow I am reading in the newspapers here that Ukraine has started a new offensiv, trying to break through the Russian front. In particular against the city Kherson (unsure if correct English spelling). Apparently Ukrainian forces have gone through first defensive line, and potentially 15 - 30 thousand Russian soldiers are somewhat stranded north of the river Dnipro.

Russia calls this false naturally.

Here's to hoping the offensive goes well. The Russians are basically all out of steam and fairly unable to keep themselves supplied in some areas. A 10-20k Russian soldier surrender would be ground shattering in this war.

At the same time Putin has ordered to increase size of the Russian armed forces by Jan 1st next year. And Russia is scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find more cannon fodder to Ukraine. Offering more money for volunteers, hiring more mercenaries and even offering amnesty to prisoners for a tour in Ukraine.

Because this isn’t called a war yet in Russia, he can’t order men to join the military and fight. I also remember reading that most soldiers are recruited far from Moscow, so that the population closer to him remains in the dark about how many are dying.

Ukraine won stand a chance if we stop supporting them. Europe needs to continue the support. US helping means a lot

I don’t know if I posted in this thread, because there’s 760! Posts. Wow.

At any rate, I’m not an expert on this topic, but I don’t think the West handled it badly. What should they have done differently from 1992 - 2001?

You are right. The drones alone are a game changer, it's how we have 19-year old kids who seven months ago were playing video games, but now they're dropping grenades onto soldiers from drones. It'd be amusing if people were not dying.

I would feel bad for the Russian soldiers if they were not the aggressors and if there were not so many nationalists amongst their ranks.

This is costing the Russian economy a lot of money. I know Putin doesn't give a damn about his people but even he can't ignore the rising costs and at some point when the military stops getting paid, well...it's coup d'etat time, baby.

It's also costing them a lot of gas and supplies. At some point Europe will need to ask "Do you want to waste money on Ukraine, or do you want to make money selling us gas?"

Meanwhile Europe and US sending aid that easily outspends Russia.

Mercenaries and prisoners is a scary thought. Those folks that served in Chechnya and Syria are pretty bad guys.

Another Russian oligarch dies under mysterious circumstances. You'd think they would stop being so wreck-less and falling out of these dangerous windows.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/chairman-russian-oil-producer-lukoil-dies-after-falling-hospital-window-source-2022-09-01/

Reading now that Russia buys weapons and ammunition from North Korea.

With money given to them by Western Europe to fuel their energy needs, thanks to the demolition of domestic energy production in the name of going "green." Energy costs have nearly doubled in some parts of Europe, you had better hope it's a mild winter, for their sake, more than just Ukrainians are soon going to be suffering from the self-indulging failed leadership of western Europe which has given the money and power Russia needed to do all of this.

The counter attack seems to be going well for Ukraine.

Russia is facing the pressure of the upcoming winter and may be willing to negotiate some kind of peace treaty, of course, knowing Putin it will be done in bad faith and nothing will come out of it.

Also a cultural victory happened recently with the Kiev/Europe Timezone being renamed to Kyiv/Europe.

It always baffled me how anti-environmentalists are arguing that green policies that caused this war.

Quite literally it is the opposite. Our overreliance on Crude Oil are what funded Russia and their military efforts. If we want to stop funding russia, we should transition away from Crude Oil reliance ASAP. Do these people even realize that Europe as a continent has a lack of Crude Oil, and thus has historically been forced to import that resource from other countries, throughout its history? Do these people also not realize how global markets work?

Russia can’t manufacture enough weapons or manufacture weapons of a lower grade than NK can produce went over your head.

Russia got problems.

Is that what you said? No, you didn't. Secondly, you're basing that on an unsubstantiated report, not that it's surprising. You found a narrative that you liked, so you've internalized it as a fact, ignoring the reality that it's an unsubstantiated report that may not even be true. Lastly, Russia buying ammunition from North Korea doesn't mean they cannot produce their own, or produce them as well. It may be a simple fact that they could get them in larger quantities much cheaper from North Korea. Their ammunition is compatible with Russian technology. It could also mean they're intending to ramp up their attack on Ukraine to a new level.

There are many reasons. But of course, you immediately jumped on one that fits your preconceived beliefs.

@eoten: Russia should have enough stored to not rely on others already. I am well aware that Europe very much funds the Russian side of this war.

Oh, so you know exactly how the Russian military works, what their intentions are, why they want more ammunition, and have determined what they should already have? Again, is this based on any kind of fact or is it just something that fits with your "Russia is struggling" narrative? You assume they're relying on North Korea, based on what? Based on being able to buy ammunition from them cheaper?

And you do realize if a military does plan to have a certain number of rounds of ammunition for different types of weapons, that actually using those weapons would require the purchase or production of their replacements, right? If Russia used 10% of their ammunition, that means they'd have to make or buy that 10% back to maintain a quota. And if they could simply buy that from North Korea for cheaper than they can produce it domestically, as North Korea actually does implement slave labor to keep production costs low, whereas Russia does not, that buying from North Korea would either save them a lot of money to reach their goals, or allow them to far exceed that quota, perhaps in preparation for an even bigger conflict, for the same price.

There are plenty of reasons Russia can buy on North Korea, so stop latching onto the singular theory that fits your narrative. It's not even confirmed they're even buying from NK, and if they were, you're certainly not going to know what plans they have for it.

Btw Russia had a really bad day.

Triggered much?

Among Russia partners for weaponry it seems only NK is trading with them. Even China stays out of it (openly at least).

@horgen: Yeah, seems like you triggered that orc.

Wouldn't be surprised if NK is just a front for China's support. You won't find many openly willing to support them because as we stand there's no real scenario in which Russia will come out of this in a position of strength.

Just a couple of days ago there was a call for Putin to be accused of high treason and while that probably won't lead to nothing it is no doubt a clear sign of internal struggles.

Edit: https://www.foxnews.com/world/five-russian-officials-arrested-proposing-remove-putin-power-charge-him-treason

Russia's getting their ass kicked in Ukraine during the last 24h won't make things better for them either.

Funny how Tucker Carlson went on a rant about how Russia was winning the war just last week. Now Ukraine is pushing them back across multiple fronts and we're seeing a catastrophic Russian collapse.

@HoolaHoopMan: Tucker is a Kremlin propagandist, that's expected from him.

By the way, joining the St. Petersburg deputies accusing Putin of high treason now there's also deputies from Moscow calling for his resignation.

https://www.rferl.org/a/32027762.html

They'll all end up accidentally falling from a window, but it's good to see some internal opposition to that fascist pos. Russia and Russians need change.

To be fair. Russia was firing more artillery shells than the world could manufacture. It wasn't only Russia who was running out, it was the world. 40 000 - 60 000 shells a day. Last time we saw numbers like that was in WW2. No one can keep that up for long. I saw one American general say that Russia has used more ammunition in 6 months than the US in last 20 years. Estimates are that Russia has used over 7 million shells. 1 million won't last long if they keep that up.

I think Russia is desperate with the Ukrainian breakthrough. News are that the Russian forces are on the verge of total collapse. Massive artillery barrage is one way to stop advancing enemy.

A good use of tax payers money I must say.

OMFG he did!

And now he has egg on his face when something like this has become a meme about Russian morale to Ukraine's counter-offensive:

No, just pointing out you have no idea what you are talking about and simply latch onto the first conspiracy theory that tells you what you want to hear. China is staying out of it? What are you talking about? China has already declared, officially, their support for Russia and their commitment to aiding them in both economic and security needs.

And they'll use some of that European energy money to buy back their stockpiles and get ready for round 2.

How do you buy munitions that don't exist?

So what are they buying from NK then?

Those are finite. There is no magic replacement.

Icarian was talking about Russia using more artillery shells than the world is producing.

Even if they can afford it. They cannot use munitions that don't exist. Sooner or later Russia will run out of ammo if they keep this up.

Money is nothing more than an abstract concept we created to make trade easier. Money doesnt magic things into existance.