Battlefield something or another - woman empowerment

i dont think most are pushing to have female leads, most are just shocked that people have a problem with it.

Men made annika famous, she would have fallen into obscurity if I didnt come home one day and find my youtube plastered with video of men raging out.

Real feminists are far less worried about women having female leads in a game that is 100% about killing.

you know what I did? I actually watched one of her videos, the whole thing. You know what she said?

1. 'Most games have a male lead'

2. 'Women are hyper sexualized'

she never explicitly stated that it should not be that way, she just pointed out what everyone on the planet already knows and men completely lost their friggin mind

Yeah I still don't know who this Annika person is tbh. Some spokesperson for something or other I guess.

I find it odd about the women are hyper sexualized in games, so are men. Or at least the male and female attributes are hyper focussed. Don't see to many games featuring Dad Bod soldiers either.

yes..men are hyper sexualized too, and its true that she didnt mention that, but it doesnt make what she said not true.

and you do know who she is, stop it

Are you not interested in them because they don't represent your gender?

Come on, buddy, you're almost there.

Ah, nothing like throwing a bone to those meek and feeble untermensch wenches who are only ever interested in games with female leads, amirite?

Well, at least we now know where you're coming from with this.

Can't say i'm surprised.

if you do not see the correlated logic here then we can not have a conversation, you would clearly not be able to understand

Yeah, if you can't comprehend that women have interests and dislikes in media beyond their gender representation, just like good ol' fuckin' you, then you are a confirmed psychopath.

Sorry this is how you had to find out.

Oh wait, you don't feelings.

then you should be a consultant in the industry and go help companies understand how demographics work and what they buy and are intrested in.

in the meantime you should not flip out if they think having a female lead might attract more female gamers.

and frankly unless you are a female, you really dont know if that would not attract them or not.

so here we are again with a massive fail in logic. Now its 'I am outraged! and they shoudl not do that! because I dont think having a female lead would attract female gamers!'

thats it....just dont agree with there choice to make games with female leads in hopes of attracting female gamers.

that is where you are now with this, back to aburd. So now, they cant add a female lead..peroid

Save your breath, man; with these types, you either blindly support nothing but women in everything all the time for no reason at all without context...

...or you're a "psychopath". Not sure you can win an argument here, even if you do.

Makes it really hard to be a moderate liberal when the left is infested with people like this.

The irony, of course, is that your both seem to support feminism/women.

he is literally building the case that a developer should not add a female lead in a game with the motovation of attracting more women to buy games.

bizzaro

To the genre that female gamers are uninterested in? You should not flip out when it inevitably doesn't work. Or worse, causes issues with what worked previously. See OP for example of that.

The most popular genre among female gamers is match 3. It's doesn't have characters at all, male or female.

Mental gymnastics your way out of that, dummy.

Would a female, all things equal, know more than me about female demographic's wants outside of her personal anecdote?

No.

Ah, that's rich coming from "i do have my genre prefereces but females do not" guy.

I never said that wasn't my position. You're so confused with your own strawmans you have no fucking clue where i stand in this.

You're chasing your own tail.

It's comedic.

dude!

I have no idea zero clue what women are thinking or what the want in a game, and I dont presume to think for them.

but your position is that developers should not add females into games...like ANY of them if they believe it will attract new players all because you think it will not.

bizzare

Except you very clearly do.

You presume they'll buy shit, otherwise unappealing to them, if you put a woman on the cover.

They won't.

They won't buy a pickup truck because it's pink or because they saw a woman on an ad for it.

No, that's not my position. The devs can try and appeal to female audience and if done well, it pays off.

But "done well" means, not just surface level reskinning of male models, but introducing GAMEPLAY features that appeal to this audience as well.

This was proven to resonate with female gamers both in aesthetics and gameplay:

This was proven to not:

Yeah, COD games have had selectable female characters since 2013. Tell me how much of a smash hit COD games have been with female audiences for the past 5 years.

Can't blame you for not remembering it since there was no drama about it whatsoever up until the moment the setting was changed to WW2.

Wait a minute...

@R10nu said:

@tryit said:

I have no idea zero clue what women are thinking or what the want in a game, and I dont presume to think for them.

Except you very clearly do.

You presume they'll buy shit, otherwise unappealing to them, if you put a woman on the cover.

They won't.

They won't buy a pickup truck because it's pink or because they saw a woman on an ad for it.

@tryit said:

but your position is that developers should not add females into games...like ANY of them if they believe it will attract new players all because you think it will not.

No, that's not my position. The devs can try and appeal to female audience and if done well, it pays off.

But "done well" means, not just surface level reskinning of male models, but introducing GAMEPLAY features that appeal to this audience as well.

This was proven to resonate with female gamers both in aesthetics and gameplay:

This was proven to not:

Yeah, COD games have had selectable female characters since 2013. Tell me how much of a smash hit COD games have been with female audiences for the past 5 years.

Can't blame you for not remembering it since there was no drama about it whatsoever up until the moment the setting was changed to WW2.

Wait a minute...

no it was not an issue until gamergate and the blitz of extreme right wing gaming sites spewing a bunch of ridiculous nonsense

the fury over female lead in games didnt start with BF, it started before that.

it literally started the day i came home and saw a ton of videos on youtube ranting about whats her face

@tryit said:

@R10nu said:

@tryit said:

I have no idea zero clue what women are thinking or what the want in a game, and I dont presume to think for them.

Except you very clearly do.

You presume they'll buy shit, otherwise unappealing to them, if you put a woman on the cover.

They won't.

They won't buy a pickup truck because it's pink or because they saw a woman on an ad for it.

@tryit said:

but your position is that developers should not add females into games...like ANY of them if they believe it will attract new players all because you think it will not.

No, that's not my position. The devs can try and appeal to female audience and if done well, it pays off.

But "done well" means, not just surface level reskinning of male models, but introducing GAMEPLAY features that appeal to this audience as well.

This was proven to resonate with female gamers both in aesthetics and gameplay:

This was proven to not:

Yeah, COD games have had selectable female characters since 2013. Tell me how much of a smash hit COD games have been with female audiences for the past 5 years.

Can't blame you for not remembering it since there was no drama about it whatsoever up until the moment the setting was changed to WW2.

Wait a minute...

no it was not an issue until gamergate and the blitz of extreme right wing gaming sites spewing a bunch of ridiculous nonsense

the fury over female lead in games didnt start with BF, it started before that.

it literally started the day i came home and saw a ton of videos on youtube ranting about whats her face

I love the whole logic, of "we don't know what woman would buy" ... you can look at the friggin play store and see the kind of games woman buy vs men, because you can see they are clearly marketed, and are not usually in the same genres (e.g, dress up games.).

Anyway moving on from that to the quote.

Gamergate was a crock of s*it on both sides, and much like the modern Trump/Brexit situation, people who were not "Obessive far left" started fighting back against the level of ridiculous bullshit that was coming from the left, hence why the right gained ground in the first place... IT HAPPENED FOR A REASON.

Anita Sarkeesian is a prime example of why this happened.

A "Feminist" that made videos about things she had little clue about, with sweeping statements, accusations that could be twisted to fit any agenda... she even made a music video where the artist called her out for talking s*it.

She claimed to be a "Gamer" yet clearly just google games with "Damsels in destress", and there is video evidence of her admitting ON CAMERA that "SHE DOES NOT PLAY VIDEO GAMES" in a lecture presentation.

Her disseration was self-contradicting jargon.

Video evidence of her at a Conference about how to "Make money out of people by selling an idea"...

NExt thing we know, a feminist gaming kickstarter appears, raises thousands... to make... the same videos she was already making... QUOTING WIKIPEDIA AS RESEARCH.

LYING about certain sections of video games (Hitman, stripclub scene) to demonise mens intentions.

TLDR - Scam artist gets hate and death threats, plays the professional victim card perfectly, then comes online drama.

A shit stirrer, managed to stir shit... and got paid money and a pat on the back for doing so.

And you claim "Right Media" was the problem , when far-left media *cough Polygon cough* was demonising core gamers all round without having a f*cking clue what was going on.

I'm not suprised though, I use to be more liberal and defend anything PC/Left ... now I see the bullshit on both the left and right for what they are.... you are classically virtue signalling without reasoning.

A number of times in this thread you have plaed the "So what you are saying is, [insert negative twist that was clearly not said]" multiple times.

You have that irrational-leftist automatic-response mode on with the idea that you are morally superior without taking a step back from the tired rhetoric and looking into the situation fully.

@kali-b1rd said:

@tryit said:

@R10nu said:

@tryit said:

I have no idea zero clue what women are thinking or what the want in a game, and I dont presume to think for them.

Except you very clearly do.

You presume they'll buy shit, otherwise unappealing to them, if you put a woman on the cover.

They won't.

They won't buy a pickup truck because it's pink or because they saw a woman on an ad for it.

@tryit said:

but your position is that developers should not add females into games...like ANY of them if they believe it will attract new players all because you think it will not.

No, that's not my position. The devs can try and appeal to female audience and if done well, it pays off.

But "done well" means, not just surface level reskinning of male models, but introducing GAMEPLAY features that appeal to this audience as well.

This was proven to resonate with female gamers both in aesthetics and gameplay:

This was proven to not:

Yeah, COD games have had selectable female characters since 2013. Tell me how much of a smash hit COD games have been with female audiences for the past 5 years.

Can't blame you for not remembering it since there was no drama about it whatsoever up until the moment the setting was changed to WW2.

Wait a minute...

no it was not an issue until gamergate and the blitz of extreme right wing gaming sites spewing a bunch of ridiculous nonsense

the fury over female lead in games didnt start with BF, it started before that.

it literally started the day i came home and saw a ton of videos on youtube ranting about whats her face

I love the whole logic, of "we don't know what woman would buy" ... you can look at the friggin play store and see the kind of games woman buy vs men, ....

its like you completely and totally missed my entire painfully simply observation.

if the games they would like to play do not exist then how do you know what they like?

the whole POINT here is the question of 'maybe women are not playing video games of certian kinds because there isnt any female leads'

you cant 'find that out' by looking at data that doesnt exist exist because there isnt enough games with female leads to draw that metric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but beside all of that, who cares! its their business, they can try to attract new consumers if they want, if you fancy yourself an expert at it then get into the business and let people do what they do

you are literally building the case that nobody should put women in games to attract new consumers.

its ok to add men in games to attract existing and possible new male consumers, buts its not ok to do it if its female.

No i'm being honest, I had not heard of her before this thread.

@tryit said:

@kali-b1rd said:

@tryit said:

@R10nu said:

Except you very clearly do.

You presume they'll buy shit, otherwise unappealing to them, if you put a woman on the cover.

They won't.

They won't buy a pickup truck because it's pink or because they saw a woman on an ad for it.

No, that's not my position. The devs can try and appeal to female audience and if done well, it pays off.

But "done well" means, not just surface level reskinning of male models, but introducing GAMEPLAY features that appeal to this audience as well.

This was proven to resonate with female gamers both in aesthetics and gameplay:

This was proven to not:

Yeah, COD games have had selectable female characters since 2013. Tell me how much of a smash hit COD games have been with female audiences for the past 5 years.

Can't blame you for not remembering it since there was no drama about it whatsoever up until the moment the setting was changed to WW2.

Wait a minute...

no it was not an issue until gamergate and the blitz of extreme right wing gaming sites spewing a bunch of ridiculous nonsense

the fury over female lead in games didnt start with BF, it started before that.

it literally started the day i came home and saw a ton of videos on youtube ranting about whats her face

I love the whole logic, of "we don't know what woman would buy" ... you can look at the friggin play store and see the kind of games woman buy vs men, ....

its like you completely and totally missed my entire painfully simply observation. ...

if the games they would like to play do not exist then how do you know what they like? We are talking about existing game types that exist here.... and some do have female characters already.... so yea, if you are talking about imaginary new genres, im not interested, its not the thread.

the whole POINT here is the question of 'maybe women are not playing video games of certian kinds because there isnt any female leads' So woman are sexist then? they can't possibly play as a man and still enjoy THE GAME? you see this works both ways. I can't play a man in Tomb Raider, do you see us crying about it?

you cant 'find that out' by looking at data that doesnt exist exist because there isnt enough games with female leads to draw that metric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again, pleanty of games, and tons more where you play as a female lead avatar, you are literally lying to yourself at this point.

but beside all of that, who cares! its their business, they can try to attract new consumers if they want, if you fancy yourself an expert at it then get into the business and let people do what they do Correct, and thier consumors are also able to complain about butchering history too, it again, works both ways.

you are literally building the case that nobody should put women in games to attract new consumers. "So what you are saying is [insert something I am not saying" proved my point beautifully.

its ok to add men in games to attract existing and possible new male consumers, buts its not ok to do it if its female.what imaginary shit hole do you pull this crap out of? This thead was about a godamn WW2 game.

We are on different planets clearly..... because you are making up imaginary scenarios way outside of the scope here.

No comment on the gamergate sections? I'm not suprised..... nobody likes knowing the truth after they have blindly defended the poor "Gamer girl victim" hoping to win a virtue medal.

@kali-b1rd said:

@tryit said:

@kali-b1rd said:

@tryit said:

@R10nu said:

Except you very clearly do.

You presume they'll buy shit, otherwise unappealing to them, if you put a woman on the cover.

They won't.

They won't buy a pickup truck because it's pink or because they saw a woman on an ad for it.

No, that's not my position. The devs can try and appeal to female audience and if done well, it pays off.

But "done well" means, not just surface level reskinning of male models, but introducing GAMEPLAY features that appeal to this audience as well.

This was proven to resonate with female gamers both in aesthetics and gameplay:

This was proven to not:

Yeah, COD games have had selectable female characters since 2013. Tell me how much of a smash hit COD games have been with female audiences for the past 5 years.

Can't blame you for not remembering it since there was no drama about it whatsoever up until the moment the setting was changed to WW2.

Wait a minute...

no it was not an issue until gamergate and the blitz of extreme right wing gaming sites spewing a bunch of ridiculous nonsense

the fury over female lead in games didnt start with BF, it started before that.

it literally started the day i came home and saw a ton of videos on youtube ranting about whats her face

I love the whole logic, of "we don't know what woman would buy" ... you can look at the friggin play store and see the kind of games woman buy vs men, ....

its like you completely and totally missed my entire painfully simply observation. ...

if the games they would like to play do not exist then how do you know what they like? We are talking about existing game types that exist here.... and some do have female characters already.... so yea, if you are talking about imaginary new genres, im not interested, its not the thread.

the whole POINT here is the question of 'maybe women are not playing video games of certian kinds because there isnt any female leads' So woman are sexist then? they can't possibly play as a man and still enjoy THE GAME? you see this works both ways. I can't play a man in Tomb Raider, do you see us crying about it?

you cant 'find that out' by looking at data that doesnt exist exist because there isnt enough games with female leads to draw that metric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again, pleanty of games, and tons more where you play as a female lead avatar, you are literally lying to yourself at this point.

but beside all of that, who cares! its their business, they can try to attract new consumers if they want, if you fancy yourself an expert at it then get into the business and let people do what they do Correct, and thier consumors are also able to complain about butchering history too, it again, works both ways.

you are literally building the case that nobody should put women in games to attract new consumers. "So what you are saying is [insert something I am not saying" proved my point beautifully.

its ok to add men in games to attract existing and possible new male consumers, buts its not ok to do it if its female.what imaginary shit hole do you pull this crap out of? This thead was about a godamn WW2 game.

We are on different planets clearly..... because you are making up imaginary scenarios way outside of the scope here.

No comment on the gamergate sections? I'm not suprised..... nobody likes knowing the truth after they have blindly defended the poor "Gamer girl victim" hoping to win a virtue medal.

The day the whole thing started was the day I came home from work, opened up youtube and saw tons of video made by men yelling and screaming about a woman I never heard of named Anita Sarkeesian.

ever since then all their rants have done nothing other than create more female leads.

That's silly, Metroid has one of the most popular characters in video game history, is a female lead and is incredibly popular among men. If women want to play the game because it looks fun, they probably will anyway.

yeah that was before Anita Sarkeesian.

that is what I am saying, this whole outrage anytime a developer suggests a female lead didnt start until men lost their friggin minds over Anita Sarkeesian randomly and out of the blue.

I dont know where the source of all that insanity is but that is when it started

So basically you knew nothing about the situation and assumed the woman was in the right. (don't get me wrong, death threats are never cool, but scammers are pretty high up on the list of death threat receivers).

the second sentence is baseless, absolutely nothing to identify this with.

If anything it just showed how shit left-media was by demonising without knowing any facts. Trump's election win also revealed a heavy ammount of disstortion in left-tist media, as did brexit.

Now, I voted Remain, and use to be liberal, but not anymore, both sides are as shit as eachother, far right and left cencor, both lie and overexagurate sitauations for thier beenefit.

stop making up results you cant back up

this is the best part.

no..you know what I did that all those men did not do?

wait for it...I watched her video.

THEN I made a decsion, you want to know what she said in her video? take a guess. this is the best part...

Which video? why do I need to guess? she made quite alot of videos... and this was a few years ago.

And once again, you assume they didn't, because I did.... and I came to the conclusion I came too, and many other's did FAR more research into her and exposed the other things I have mentioned.

Meanwhile, you watched HER video, did you watch anyone's videos that provided evidence and critiscised her agenda? if not.... you are biased and you have lost any credibility.

I'm going to have to read more about his women it seems.

the assertion was that I assumed she was right but the reality is it was the exact opposite.

THEY assumed she was wrong without even watching any of her videos. its very clear to me that they did not.

because what she said is undisputed fact....would you like to know what those facts are?

this is going to be awesome!

you are wasting time, is there a point to this?

fact 1: 'there are far more male leads then female leads'

fact 2: 'women are hyper sexualized.

that is all she said, she showed examples of games and that was it.

so yeah...she is actually 100% 'right' both of those things are completely true

so who is forming what opinion based on assumptions?

Wash she portraying either of those facts in a negative light? They don't seem like negatives?

not in my opinion no.

looking at what she said completely objectively it was not, injecting a persons social biases (including my own) made it feel like she was making a point but she never really did, didnt even 'hint' in my view

but she never made that point. and the internet went completely off the rails on what they ASSUMED she was hinting at.

so I ask again, who is making assumptions based on what he watched and who is making assumptions based on what they didnt watch?

Oh well, it's not like the internet hasn't flown off the handle before.

1) Because of the market for those games?

2) Most of the men are, and again, this is based on the market .... in female magazines/filmes/tv shows the men are also sexualised or portrayed with incredibly high standards/expectations .. its called life.

That is NOT all that she said, and that is evidence enough you barely looked into anything.

You... you are forming opinions and you don't even realise what she has said in ANY detail, beyond 2 very top-level points, that were far from "everything" said.

fucking hell, no wonder far-left people are driving people to the centre or right .... there is no critical thinking going on.

It seems to me that you guys are letting things get a little heated? Be sure to take a break every now and then.

It doesn't sounds to me @tryit that the people you are arguing with are opposing your core beliefs of allowing women in games. There is but one thing throughout this thread that looks like it is being actually contested because we just don't know: Would more women play video-games if there were more games with female protagonists/characters?

And that, we just don't know. I feel like we have a ton of games that feature playable characters that are women. Many that come to my mind. So personally, I'm not so sure that it would be all that different to have playable female characters in our games, because I feel like that is kind of what we have already. I would like to see whether my assumption holds true. But that sounds like a lot of work. We could sum up games... I don't know that that is going to be of much use.

I suppose if I were right, it could be argued then that this is a franchise specific thing. Battlefield has never had customization to the point that you determine your in-game sex. I suppose that it may be true that having mostly men in Battlefield has kept women (and men?) from playing a Battlefield game. (I happen to know one man who does not play a game if he cannot play as a woman.) I would assume that that is exceptional. And again, I could be wrong. I wonder if there is a way to know?

I know that some publishers keep track of the sex of their players. Maybe they have the data to show how much it matters to have a male/female protagonist in a game.

@KungfuKitten: *Drinks Tea*

@KungfuKitten: women are already half the population who play games.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/

that is all she said and I agree with your points on 1 and 2.

I also didnt agree that she didnt make the point that men are hyper sexualized too.

but the reasons of WHY bla bla bla are all injected by others, she never expressed why.

so again I ask, who is assuming she is wrong based on not watching the videos?

because it sure aint me, because I DID watch the videos (2 of them anyway)

you are injecting meaning into what she said not her, you are projecting

Where was the fury over new Tomb Raider games? Where was the fury over new Metroid games? Where was the fury over Bayonetta 2? Nier? Hellblade? Horizon? Dishonored 2? Overwatch? Mirror's Edge? Etc etc.

Stop making shit up. You're clearly out of your depth on what-when-and-why of GG and Femfreq.

But boy are you in a hurry to take sides regardless. And of course everyone who's not on your arbitrarily chosen side is an irrational mustache twirling cartoon villain.

It's like you never left puberty.

@R10nu said:

@tryit said:

the fury over female lead in games didnt start with BF, it started before that.

Where was the fury over new Tomb Raider games? Where was the fury over new Metroid games? Where was the fury over Bayonetta 2? Nier? Hellblade? Horizon? Dishonored 2? Overwatch? Mirror's Edge? Etc etc.

Stop making shit up. You're clearly out of your depth on what-when-and-why of GG and Femfreq.

But boy are you in a hurry to take sides regardless. And of course everyone who's not on your arbitrarily chosen side is an irrational mustache twirling cartoon villain.

It's like you never left puberty.

again the answer is two fold

1. if it a game that existed before Anita Sarkeesian made her videos

2. a change or addition to an existing IP

but I am just hypothesizing really.

why are men completely loosing their mind over Subnautica female lead for a DLC and posting for days over there about how unfair it is?

I really dont know, its bizzare

again the answer is two fold

1. if it a game that existed before Anita Sarkeesian made her videos

2. a change or addition to an existing IP

And where does Horizon or Hellblade or Nier or Overwatch fall in this flimsy rationalization?

Are "men" losing their minds over female lead or the fact that it's a paid DLC that was expected to be free?

Putting women into everything seems to be the ultimate shield from criticism these days.

Having female leads in games is great. 2B, Aloy and Chloe have proven that this gen.

Nothing can save BFV though. Game looks and sounds like hot garbage just like every other game DICE has made this gen and it has nothing to do with having female characters.

Not sure what you mean "this gen".

Metriod? Phantasy Star?

At the end of the day this move by Dice/EA is not going to increase the uptake of the game by female gamers, if anything, they'll lose sales by changing the core game away from what it always has been.

Here's a study into the genre split for Male and Female gamers. It's very telling.

https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

I see this reflected in my own family and friend's families. My girls have very readily gravitated towards the kind of games that my wife plays (Star Stable, Minecraft, The Sims 4 etc.) and have very little interest in the games that I mostly play (RTS, FPS and Western RPG's). They have never been told they can't play or do anything because they are a girl and they never will be. On the other hand my mate's son, who is the same age as my twin daughters, is playing the likes of Fortnite and Overwatch.

no..it was absolutely specific to the female lead. rants went on for a few weeks.

and no, having a female lead invites rage posts typically

Well if the fact that whether it happened before or after Sarkeesian's one-sided study is an important differentiator in the response to female leads or female DLC being introduced in games, then maybe the responses are solely there because they are concerned that it is being forced upon the developers? Because I have definitely heard that concern being expressed a whole lot on the internet, since Sarkeesian made her contribution.

And if we want to discuss the validity of those concerns, it becomes at some point a discussion about something other than games. But in short I think there are reasons to be concerned that these movements may take over the industry as they have with some other elements in life (such as education). And that they are not necessarily invoking a betterment of society or a more fair society through their methods but regularly the complete opposite. And personally the most dangerous element is that their stance is not open for debate on their platforms or in their classes which I find suspicious at best. But in general I think that it's more than suspicious. So, I do believe there is reason for some concern, but maybe you see it a different way entirely.

At the youtube @E3 event, Geoff Keighley asked a BFV dev about the controversy. The dev answered it's thier take on WW2 and that they're not the history channel.

I can live with that answer, they're not claiming to be historically accurate but want to have their own fantasy version of it.

No problem with this and I think many wouldn't either. They could've dodged a lot if they were honest about this right away.

yes, the theory that Sarkeesian is a super villain with powers that enable her to 'force' developers to do what they do not want to do, is a theory that was given.

Indeed. I believe that that makes up for at least 90% of the commentary that you take issue with. And in your mind it may be a ridiculous theory but it's not ridiculous for other people. If we want to dissolve the situation that may very well be the key solution.

How exactly is Sarkeesian forcing developers to make them to do things they do not want to do?

The bold part I think is the part your side is missing on this silly theory

You can within the scope of what the game provides. We aren't just talking about MP though. People don't see the woman on the cover as a genuine choice on the developer's behalf, they see it as a shoehorned in choice by some SJW.