Battlefield something or another - woman empowerment

seriously?

you think a SJW has so much power that they can FORCE a developer to do something they do not want to do, you actually believe that they have that much power.

Where did you formulate that opinion because I am pretty sure you didnt come up with that on your own, you heard that somewhere, like on the radio perhaps?

and while we are on the subject, what exactly is wrong with this feminist position of which people should not consider?

The fact is they may or may not have been pressured by someone. But when there is a clear of pushing a woman in the front of all these terrible misogynists, for "diversity" when the diversity is superficial at best... people have a right to be upset. There is a trend to shoehorn woman into places not because it makes sense or there is a creative choice. There is a clear push for it even though these same misogynists celebrate well written and designed woman when they have a clear creative reason for being there. I mean where's the backlash to Samus, Jill Valentine, Lara Craft, Chell, Joanna Dark, Faith Conners, Bayonetta, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner, The bride, Furiosa, Princess Leia. Women are not the problem alone.

And.. publisher's never chased trends or force creative decisions on their developers... no no, developers have total creative control! W/e the case is, people, don't feel like some of the choices including pushing women to the forefront are not coming from a genuine place, and generally, there is a clear issue with writing because of that. I can't think of other games off the top of my head but Ghostbusters reboot / The last jedi are clear examples putting women over strong writing for characters. Similar backlash, similar claims of misogyny when it's clear the same crowds of people love women in their stories when they are done right.

your getting off topic.

there is really only two options here

A. a person has the power to force a developer to do what they do not want to do or not. I do not believe they have that much power, UNLESS the developer agree with the position.

or

B. a person has the power to persuade a developer to do what they end up wanting to do.

the problem with B for you is that you would have to explain why the content of what is being suggested is bad in the first place.

For basically you have to describe specifically what is WRONG with the SJW position that is being advocated, on its face. If there is nothing wrong with the position itself then really all other points are useless

This is not off topic. There are people that are in positions that force developers to do certain things and there are clear and obvious trends to appease SJW culture. Put the two together, SJW's are in a position to push political/social agenda's in the creative process indirectly via publishers and other upper management positions. Many may actually be held from left-leaning graduates, which college has become a place of political indoctrination out side of the sciences.

so again,

1. you believe that there are SJW so powerful that they are able to FORCE a developer to do something they do not want to do.

1A. I am telling you I do not believe that you came up with that position on your own, someone told you that, either radio, or some website. I am curious where you first heard it.

2. The SJW position ITSELF on its own standing, is a reasonable position in the first place. What exactly is the counter to the position itself? The counter to 'there should be more female leads in video games' is 'there should not be more female leads in video game'.

Yes, the developers can be forced to adopt creative decisions by publishers, and publishers can be trying to appease certain markets or stupid criticisms. SJW culture can and has had an influence in creative media. And the vast majority of the time its painfully obvious because the characters were clearly shoehorned in and wanted to be portrayed in a certain way... and the writing never earns those.

SJW is completely nonsensical and racist and sexist, they lop all are races into groups and completely ignore individuals. they measure people by gender/race and it's completely sexist/racist because of that. Not to mention the vast majority of it is trying to take corrective actions against a race/sex because of history... it completely ignores the individual.

THERE ARE Female leads in video games/movies. There have been for decades. There is no reason to say there should be more or less, it depends on what people in the video game industry want to write about.

I didnt say 'can', I said 'IS' and there is a difference.

so lets try this again because the use of the word 'can' is an obvious squirelly way to hide from what I said. I will find it, so dont try

1. you believe that there are SJW so powerful that they are able to FORCE a developer to do something they do not want to do.

1A. I am telling you I do not believe that you came up with that position on your own, someone told you that, either radio, or some website. I am curious where you first heard it.

2. MORE IMPORTANTLY The SJW position ITSELF on its own standing, is a reasonable position in the first place. What exactly is the counter to the position itself? The counter to 'there should be more female leads in video games' is 'there should not be more female leads in video game'.

how is 'we should have more females in video games' considered 'sexist'?

The difference is padantic.

I responded to everything else which you ignored. I even gave you a different counter to two.

no its not. I have seen this before, later it wil lbe 'i never said they are..I said they CAN!'

or the famous 'if its possible that means its factual'

no..possible is not factual.

say it, they ARE doing this, not CAN do this. huge difference

and again, what is wrong with the position of 'there really could be more female leads in video games'...

oh and forcing a person to do something they do not agree with is DIFFERENT from convincing a person to do something that after dialoge they then agree with.

I'm saying now, it doesn't matter. SWJ culture has had a clear and detrimental effect on writers trying to appease it and it always ends with bad character development. Whether the publishers forced them to do so or by an outside influence... the choices are not seen as genuine creative choices. The women are diverse in the most superficial way. The fact is SJW have had a big enough voice and either through choice or publishers forcing changes... changes are being made and that's what people are responding to.

And again, what is the justification to force writers to write certain things in a certain way? As an art, it's not authentic. As a story, it becomes poorly written because it's not something they are writing from a genuine place of inspiration, and generally painfully obvious that they needed the woman to be a certain way.

Look at Bayonetta, she was written by a woman. She's a well-developed character that resonated with everyone and it became a beloved franchise. What's wrong with letting writers write to their strengths... even if the industry is filled with men and we get more stories about men, they tend to be better-written stories when they come from a genuine place... and they are better games because of that.

not reading your crap anymore, I have seen this evasion game before.

1. Are SJW FORCING developers to make choices that those developers DO NOT WAN TO MAKE. not 'can' not 'is possible' 'but ACTUALLY DOING IT.

1A. where did you hear that they are actually doing it and can you provide some evidence that its ACTUALLY (not can but actually) happening

2. If a person presaudes me of a position, they are not forcing me. So, what is wrong with the position of 'there should be more women in video games' here is a hint, your response. lead with an answer to that question

I never stated that they were being forced.

You can within the scope of what the game provides. We aren't just talking about MP though. People don't see the woman on the cover as a genuine choice on the developer's behalf, they see it as a shoehorned in choice by some SJW.

Read this carefully.. try your best! I know you can! Mistakes are proof you are trying!

AH! see there! lol.

That is EXACTLY why 'can' was not an acceptable answer to my question and why it DID matter.

so they ARENT being forced ('can' or 'can not' is not relevant to my point or my question)

so if you are saying they are not being forced, but its not a 'genuine choice' then I guess you need to explain what you mean in more detail.

I hope you say 'persuaded' i just hope you say that or some variant of it, please say it

And that's why what your saying isn't a refute, there is a trend that is clearly happening whether the developers/creative people are being forced directly or indirectly by SJW... is pedantic at best. There is an obvious influence and the stories being written aren't genuine stories someone wants to write about but are shoehorning in choices and the writing and characters suffer.

So can you explain why the choice matters when the result is bad writing either way? And yes art can come from a place that is not genuine, and generally labeled a cash grab or because they ripped off some other idea. In this case, the writing isn't genuine when they had a requirement in mind BEFORE they set out to do the writing. It's not a natural process. they needed the story to meet some other obscure requirement that disrupts the process of creating a genuine story. The problem is writing around requirements to appease SJW political/social agendas, not whether or not they had a choice in the matter.

makes a HUGE difference

if a person is CONVINCED to do the right thing is a HUGE difference from FORCING a person to do the wrong thing.

now...consider this example

'A. there should be more lead women in video games' (that is considered a SJW position)

B. 'Each NLF player during a game should have their own locker' (that is NOT considered a SJW position and in general is not something people will argue much about, you can convince a person to do that, but in general not going to get a lot of heat if you 'convince' or 'persuade' a person to do that for the NLF players)

so...what specifically makes example A a SJW position and position B not. I order for the women thing to be any level of any conversational debate at all, there has to be an opposition view, what is the opposition view to the debate point specifically? well its 'there should not be more female leads in video games'

also...if I CAN robe a bank that does not mean I should be arrested, so 'can' 'is' does matter

Not it doesn't.

The problem I'm suggesting is that writers are writing to some obscure requirement, they write the story around the requirement. Whether or not its a genuine story has nothing to do with if they were forced to do something or not. If they were persuaded to write a strong female lead, they are now the SJW that is shoehorning in a requirement and to write a story around that, only serves to push SJW political/social agendas. The choice isn't about I want to write about this woman or write about what a woman might have gone through, or even what a woman brings to the table and changes our perception of the war. Nothing genuinely interesting or new, completely superficial diversity, the idea is shoehorned in by some unsubstantiated claim of we need more woman leads... Why not tell the story of Lyudmila Pavlichenko, a sniper with 309 kills and regarded as one of the top military snipers of all time? No lets just slap a poorly written, hot women in as lead... thats the "right" thing to do here.

The idea of putting a woman in as a lead should come from a place of inspiration or what women bring to the table. Not to fill a quota. Also, you're presuming that the "right" thing is to write about a woman to fill this quota. Where is the standard for even suggesting there is a lack of lead women? When there are many many lead woman in games, many of which are celebrated in the industry. And why are quota's even at all reasonable when they are based on superficial characteristics? Why shouldn't we demand well-written women and not just filling in more women just because?

you have no idea whatsoever if its a 'requirement' or that they are not doing it completely and totally because they want to and are inspired to do so, you have no idea.

what makes you think all aspects of this game is done by inspiration EXCEPT when it comes to adding a female lead.

why? likely because someone told you to think that way.

If someone persuades another to write about a woman because there aren't enough, the inspiration is indistinguishable from a requirement, the only inspiration there is political/social activism... so the story element is not a creative choice its a requirement to fill some other need.

There are always obviously canned story elements and archetypes that are mostly there to build a framework for the gameplay. But that's a completely different aspect of genuineness when it comes to the potential political and social agendas being pushed in the art, where is other story problems are just shortcuts to get a complete story. Generally, those are forgivable. Activism in entertainment is going a little too far.

it appears from what I have read that the developer for Battlefield where not 'persuaded' its extremely clear that this is how they feel about the question

but again, what is wrong about 'persuading' a person to do the right thing?

why is it that 99.99999% of the game you feel is done by inspiration EXCEPT for this one part related to a female lead.

you dont find that comes off a little creepy?

Activism motivated choices are not the same as bad writing. And there is nothing "right" about pushing political/social activism in video games. You can if you want to, its not wrong to if there is a good reason for it. Pushing it in something like ww2 where most of it is period accurate to ww2 comes off as... just bad. And people see that. Its obvious lets stick a woman in here regardless of whether or not it makes sense.

You can definitely write a good story with activism in mind but its definitely unlikely going to be set in world war 2 unless there is a good reason for it. And there is clearly no reason for it in Battlefield 5. And it's not going to work if someone doesn't have a deep... and accurate understanding of the social problems. So again just shoehorning women into some arbitrary story for the sake of having +1 is not pandering to the audience that will consume the media.

lets just do one question at a time, so I can walk you thru my point because you are not getting it yet.

how is 'there should be more women in video game' a 'political/social activist position

but

'there should be at least one locker per player in an NLF game' is not a political/social activist position?

Because one is a perceived social issue that entails a change in what people write about and one is having enough locker space for an individual to store his/her equipment.

because people perceive something as a social issue (even though its not) you think that is good enough reason that decisions around it should be treated differently?

why?

Why would they think we need to add more women if there wasn't a perception of too many men/not enough women?

Why would you compare it to a decision like NFL players needing more storage space? Do you consider women objects for the rest of society, we just need more of them because of their utility?

let me try to ask the same question differently

1. if I come to you with a position (say for example, each NFL Player should have a dedicated locker) , I lay out my position, you AGREE with my position, why should you NOT make it happen?

2. If I come to you with a position (say for example that I think there should be more women in video games), I lay out my position, you AGREE with my position, why should you NOT make it happen?

So you do consider women like objects that we just need more of because of utility.

You're ignoring the important part of those two questions as if the positions for arguing either of them are the same. Those are wildly different positions and I've pointed out, one only comes from a place of social justice because there is a perceived lack of women.. asking a bunch of people to change how they write stories to appease a social justice issue is entirely different than needing more space for equipment.

Whats the reason for needing more women leads? Why isn't there enough? What is the industry missing?

yes

but you still need to answer my two questions

I did, the reasons for doing one of those over the other are explicitly going to be utility vs social justice. Adding more utility is wholistically different than what causes you to write a character and whether or not the writing suffers because of some arbitrary agenda.

but you didnt explain to me why 'there needs to be more women in games' is considered a social justice position.

why is it a social justice position?

and question of 'why is it a social justice position' is of course SEPARATE from why does that fact make a difference in doing something if one agrees with the position

Social justice is asking for equality of outcome. Since the perception is not enough women, this is inherently a social justice position because the result of distribution is not equal and must be equalized.

I dont think that is a social justice position and I dont think feminists are asking for that specifically.

My impression is that there view is that there should be more, not necessarily exactly 50%.

that said, whats is the opposing position to that? why should there NOT be a more even distribution of female lead roles?

Social justice's principles are about inequality and making sure that inequality is flattened out on the end result. The last few years social justice and identity politics have been fused together. Because of the notion that the inequality in gender/race distribution is proof of discrimination against gender race.

No one has a position against more female leads explicitly, they are against activism leading the way in pushing more female lead roles for the sake of equality and genuinely bad writing. Movies have overt clear examples of "needing" more female characters and moments are written to make it the portrayal happen, and what we get is pink plot paste connecting all those moments. Is Rey a mary sue? Forget all the important stuff for a moment and ask yourself, if a woman from a desert planet, that remarks about never having seen so much water! Could fall into the water and swim to safety? She earns none of the character traits the movie tells us she has.

Rey, and the Ghostbusters, the last jedi... are examples of media failing to even have good stories when the politics are clearly prioritized. And if you don't think the same video game crowd is interested in those two movies you'd be insane. The backlash that people have with lead women is that they are being pushed into these stories for the wrong reasons and we end up with a pile of crap.

and there lies the scam.

not against more female leads, just dont want anyone actively doing it for the sake of having more female leads.

you are getting scammed, whoever convinced you of this circular logic is f8king with you

unless you are trying to suggest BF all of the sudden and because of a female lead, now (unlike in the past) has 'bad writting'

you didnt think your logic thru very well did you?

Your being disingenuous, I've explained in detail pushing lead women for political reasons and the sake of equality is the problem.

I'm not saying battlefield has good writing, But shoving a woman, with a prosthetic arm, in ww2 when most of the game is period accurate... comes off as nonsensical. Where they could have taken a real woman that was in ww2 and tried to tell her story, this comes off as taking something that is generally not good... and making it worse to pander to a different audience.

It's the fact that it lacks a genuine place of inspiration, just here's a woman shoved in for equality.

no you are being disingenuous more than once I might add. your bullshit question about objectionification for starters.

but WHY is it bad to push lead women.!

you are EXPLICTLY stating, that the position itself is fine, but pushing for it is not. I am asking you why is pushing for it a bad thing?

If I believe in something, regardless of if its described as so called 'political' by others or not, shouldnt I be allowed to express it?

this is what these developers believe....more over, what they 'believe' is not really radical.

its not like we are talking about Miltiary presence in the world as is it needed or not, this is not a real political position of any kind that has debate points at all, even more so if it doesnt have any counter position to it at all whatsoever anywhere other than 'people should not express their political beliefs'

@waahahah

I think I am starting to see the communication breakdown. You might not be aware of the past and WHY there are so few female leads in video games, movies and business.

the reason is NOT because 'that is just how the free market played out and its was to appeal to demographics'. no, the origins of that has been that women do not belong in those positions.

So has it changed and now its just a representation of chaos theory of free economics? or does it reflect social value system?

its the latter.

That question was BS? You compared asking for more women as if it were equal to a utility object. You presented the question that way...

but WHY is it bad to push lead women.!

you are EXPLICTLY stating, that the position itself is fine, but pushing for it is not. I am asking you why is pushing for it a bad thing?

If I believe in something, regardless of if its described as so called 'political' by others or not, shouldnt I be allowed to express it?

this is what these developers believe....more over, what they 'believe' is not really radical.

its not like we are talking about Miltiary presence in the world as is it needed or not, this is not a real political position of any kind, even more so if it doesnt have any counter position to it at all whatsoever anywhere other than 'people should not express their political beliefs'

Again... you are being disingenuous. I have not stated that pushing for women alone is what the issue is. It's not originating as a creative decision, someone is persuading them or imposing a decision to meet some diversity requirement. Which is superficial at best and comes off as nonsensical with worse writing to make it work.

I think I am starting to see the communication breakdown. You might not be aware of the past and WHY there are so few female leads in video games, movies and business.

the reason is NOT because 'that is just how the free market played out and its was to appeal to demographics'. no, the origins of that has been that women do not belong in those positions.

So has it changed and now its just a representation of chaos theory of free economics? or does it reflect social value system?

its the latter.

Or because men predominantly are the ones that are in the video game industry and built it and the vast majority of written stories are going to be from there perspective, so writing about women... are going to be from there perspective and it comes off as bad.

See, you clearly are stating something I already pointed to about SJW theory, inequality is based on discrimination.. Thanks for proving my point.

to keep things from getting off topic I think this is the only part that comes close to answering my question

so am I to understand that a developer exercising their free will to express themselves is a problem when it comes to female leads because it might eend up with bad writting?

are

you

f***king

kidding me?

that is the outrage??????????????????? that some creative people arent good? you cant FORCE them to be good bro, they will be bad at it regardless of you waving a SJW penalty flag, come on man do better then this

and no, the feminist concern is NOT about 'discrimination' as some kind of BS abstraction, its about SPECIFICALLY telling women that they SPECIFICALLY do not belong in SPECIFIC positions in society. Not the abstraction which you can convert to something else. I have seen all the tricks of the trade on this, dont even try

Creative people have different ways of telling stories and different perspectives. Getting them to have some requirement that the rest of their process is going to have to conform to is going to make it worse.

The point is they are not entirely expressing themselves when there is criteria to be met. Again and again, you're being disingenuous with my argument.

and no, it the feminist concern is NOT about 'discrimination' its about SPECIFICALLY telling women that they SPECIFICALLY do not belong in SPECIFIC positions in society. Not the abstraction which you can convert to something else.

Telling women they don't belong somewhere is discrimination... only mentally challenged people would believe these two things aren't related.

Again, you glossing over an important aspect of what they say and how they measure how much discrimination exists... if there isn't equality of outcome than discrimination exists They assume the inequality in the tech field is because the perceived view that women don't belong and men discriminate against women from going into the workplace.

For instance, if you tell women they can do anything, and don't force them to anything, and in droves, they choose to be housewives/doctors/lawyers and generally avoid cubicle work... then is that still discrimination? In egalitarian societies women that have the most freedom.. those disparities are greater.

your being evasive and I have seen it before.

no its not discrimination as an abstraction its SPECIFIC to SPECIFIC roles in society

now I am perfectly fine with people suggesting that women should not be in those specific roles. I would MUCH rather have dinner with someone who believes that, then someone who is trying to be squirrelly about it.

There isnt a tactic on this subject that I have not seen, I can see right thru you.

and yes..I know your next response is going to be explaining how its not possible for me to know that I have not seen every tacit on this subject which of course admits that there are tactics.

but then of course you will say there is nothing wrong with tactics and I will have to clarify that I mean decietful tactics.

you will then describe off topic how I am being decietful

then I iwll have to explain how my hypocrcy and bad character doesnt make yours better.

I'm not being evasive, you don't understand the difference between pushing for a woman in a story/game/media because it makes sense vs pushing for a woman because of diversity quota... not to mention the woman leads in those games tend to have other strings attached because they want to be portrayed as strong characters and the writing never attempts to earn them... Take another look at Battlefield 5, its not just the woman... it's a woman with a prosthetic arm that with blue face paint makes it more nonsensical. Again it's going out of the way to make a woman standout while other men look... like soldiers. When other battlefields, men looked like soldiers... battlefield one, 3, 4, 1942... etc, they were just soldiers. There is no reason for the level of prominence for the woman in the trailer and the fact that she's disabled. I think this game would have gotten more traction if it was called battlefield bad company 3, because that game was designed around a level of ridiculous and squad-based so it would have made more sense for that type of game.

Telling someone they don't belong somewhere is an explicit restriction... telling someone they belong because of race/gender is explicit discrimination on sex/race.

now we are starting to boil down to brass tacts!

so if you feel that there should be more female leads in games how would you suggest we go about doing it if the developer is not allowed to just simply do it without people assuming they are doing it for a quota.

?

suggestions?

I never said I felt like there should be more women in games.

But if you're going to choose to write about a woman, maybe you shouldn't shoehorn them into a game and a setting they wouldn't belong, because now it's obvious pandering to fill a quota. Because again, if its this obvious due to other clear examples of social activism in other stories there is... a backlash.

dude...shape up your shit, make your position clear or this conversation is over.

stop hiding, make your position clear, to thepoint and do not create things in which later you can say bullshit like this, its not fun or productive.

My position is pretty clear, it was summed up on the next line after the one you quoted.

we are done.

later bro, not playing this BS anymore

if you cant even make yourself clear enough to make it easily understood that you are either for or against there being more women in lead video games then this is a non-starter.

What games, reading comprehension 101?

you can not have a stance on this subject without having a stance on the core question of its subject.

sorry when you are ready to be clear, I will listen, until then, not bye

Yes, I can, I believe there is a need to be well-written characters coming from more of a creative authentic place.

When you release a video featuring a disabled woman fighting on the front lines of ww2 in a game series that traditionally doesn't have featured soldiers and tries to portray battlefield somewhat authentically of the time period... it's clearly not a creative or sane way to introduce a lead woman in the next video game. And it comes off as motivated by activism and forced.

that is not a good enough clarification of your stance for me.

try again.

also keep in mind, if the developer WANTS to do it, they are not being 'forced' AND you cant micromanage a developer into making good products by throwing around a SJW penalty flag

now. do you think there should be more women in game or not, because if you are going to debate the concern of women being in games you have to have a position on it.