Bohemia: For Every 3 Legit Sales of Arma 2, There Are 100 Piracy Attempts

"However, our statistics from multiplayer show that for every three legitimate buyers playing their game in multiplayer, there are 100 (failed) attempts to play with a pirated version. This indicates that piracy is an extremely widespread problem on PC, and it's also really worrying for us as a mid-sized, independent, PC-oriented developer. We do not have any such data for single-player, but I'm afraid there the ratio of pirates to legitimate gamers is undoubtedly much worse."

Source: PC Gamer

lol your wrong man PC piracy is at a complete minimum its the 360 piracy thats bad oh the pc version gets released a month or more earlier always but since there is no crack for it they cant play it...etc..etc

While it's true that not all of those pirated copies would have equaled a sale for them, I'm going to guess that most of them would have.

It's sad. These people, who obviously can afford a decent PC rig (otherwise they couldn't be runing ARMA 2), who obviously like the paltform and the types of games that can only be found on it, REFUSE to support it in any way, shape or form.

The same stupid, entitled, brats then start to complain when companies start to release console ports instead of proper PC games. And of course, instead of supporting the platform for PC-centric devs like Bohemia, they use this as "rationale" for further pirating.

Pisses me off. Wish those guys would grwo the F up and pay for their entertainment like the rest of us, or go buy a console. We real PC gamers don't want you on our platform!

Get the hell out.

3:100 is obviously rubbish. I do like Bohemia however shame they lost the Operation Flashpoint IP

Can't say if this is true, but if this game is popular in Eastern Europe (where it originates from), that might explain something as piracy is very widespread there.

I own legit copies of all Arma games (I even have Arma 2 twice), so I'm not going to feel guilty over this or anything. What other people do is their problem.

3:100 is obviously rubbish. I do like Bohemia however shame they lost the Operation Flashpoint IP

tenaka2

Arma is basically a continuation of the OF series under a different name. Hell, the original Operation Flashpoint even got rereleased as an Arma game.

No such thing as piracy. IP laws are a farce.

Focus on serving the public, they will throw money at you.

Don't focus on negatives. Don't make the public your enemy.

The more you whine about "piracy" the more they will pirate you just to make a point.

Take lesson from Sony.

Can't say if this is true, but if this game is popular in Eastern Europe (where it originates from), that might explain something as piracy is very widespread there.

I own legit copies of all Arma games (I even have Arma 2 twice), so I'm not going to feel guilty over this or anything. What other people do is their problem.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

3:100 is obviously rubbish. I do like Bohemia however shame they lost the Operation Flashpoint IP

DraugenCP

Arma is basically a continuation of the OF series under a different name. Hell, the original Operation Flashpoint even got rereleased as an Arma game.

I know Arma is the unofficail sequal but they would have done a lot better if they maintained their OP name, they made a bad deal with a publisher that took advantage of them and nearly bankrupted them.

I doubt that 100 failed attemps of a pirate attemping to log in equals 100 different pirates, could be just me though.

No such thing as piracy. IP laws are a farce.

Focus on serving the public, they will throw money at you.

Don't focus on negatives. Don't make the public your enemy.

The more you whine about "piracy" the more they will pirate you just to make a point.

Take lesson from Sony.

*laughs hard* focus on serving the public they will use you and abuse you. Humanity is a disease if they cant follow laws and human decency in one thing they wont follow it on a service model they will find a way to use your product without paying you cause they want it free. there is no such things as rights in a hobby that isn't required.WilliamRLBaker

The PC community do have loyalty to devs that make the effort, look at Crytek, make a PC game and focus on it 4million + sales.

Sell out to casual consoles = very few PC sales.

lol your wrong man PC piracy is at a complete minimum its the 360 piracy thats bad oh the pc version gets released a month or more earlier always but since there is no crack for it they cant play it...etc..etc

WilliamRLBaker

360 piracy is bad ?

The whu did Fabllefield 3 sell 2.5 million on 360 and only 500K on PC ?

Piracy seems 100x worst on PC imo

In other words "For every 3 copies we actually sold, we hoped to sell 100". Get off the piracy case the people who pirate never had an intention of buying in the first place so it was never a lost sale and no stats or figures will or can ever show proof of the piracy damaging gaming because there is no baseline to work off of.JohnF111

True that not all of them would have bought the game, but even if 1 % of people who pirated the game would buy it instead, it would mean still lots of money.

What does it take to make you agree with reality?

You're sinking you're own boat, and blaming everyone else but the only one going down is you.

When did PC gaming become a welfare state?

In other words "For every 3 copies we actually sold, we hoped to sell 100". Get off the piracy case the people who pirate never had an intention of buying in the first place so it was never a lost sale and no stats or figures will or can ever show proof of the piracy damaging gaming because there is no baseline to work off of.JohnF111

I dont understand

Just because they dont have the intention to buy, pirating a game and playing it to the end is not a lost sale ?

seems to be exactly that

So, if someone steals a TV, is not stealing because he would never normally buy it

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

lol your wrong man PC piracy is at a complete minimum its the 360 piracy thats bad oh the pc version gets released a month or more earlier always but since there is no crack for it they cant play it...etc..etc

loosingENDS

360 piracy is bad ?

The whu did Fabllefield 3 sell 2.5 million on 360 and only 500K on PC ?

Piracy seems 100x worst on PC imo

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

lol your wrong man PC piracy is at a complete minimum its the 360 piracy thats bad oh the pc version gets released a month or more earlier always but since there is no crack for it they cant play it...etc..etc

loosingENDS

360 piracy is bad ?

The whu did Fabllefield 3 sell 2.5 million on 360 and only 500K on PC ?

Piracy seems 100x worst on PC imo

I dont understand

Just because they dont have the intention to buy, pirating a game and playing it to the end is not a lost sale ?

seems to be exactly that

loosingENDS

No, 'cause you wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

It's like swtor, if I never played the beta, I would have never considered buying it, it's not a lost sale if I play the beta and don't consider buying it, I wasn't going to.

Arma isn't a game that'll sell millions. It's far from being a flashy mainstream blockbuster which they must have known.
I have bought both Arma and Arma 2 but didn't like them and have only messed around in the armory for a couple of minutes.

While they did the right thing and released a demo, it was awful and probably didn't help getting sales.

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

*laughs hard* focus on serving the public they will use you and abuse you. Humanity is a disease if they cant follow laws and human decency in one thing they wont follow it on a service model they will find a way to use your product without paying you cause they want it free. there is no such things as rights in a hobby that isn't required.tenaka2

The PC community do have loyalty to devs that make the effort, look at Crytek, make a PC game and focus on it 4million + sales.

Sell out to casual consoles = very few PC sales.

How is Bohemia selling out? They make Harcore PC Exclusive games, exactly the kind of games a lot of PC Gamers are asking for. Looks to me like the idea that PC Gamers are loyal is a tall tale.

If having your game pirated 30 times for each time it's sold legally, is a show of loyalty, then imagine what the situation is for companies that doesn't focus exclusively on PC Games.

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

*laughs hard* focus on serving the public they will use you and abuse you. Humanity is a disease if they cant follow laws and human decency in one thing they wont follow it on a service model they will find a way to use your product without paying you cause they want it free. there is no such things as rights in a hobby that isn't required.tenaka2

The PC community do have loyalty to devs that make the effort, look at Crytek, make a PC game and focus on it 4million + sales.

Sell out to casual consoles = very few PC sales.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]In other words "For every 3 copies we actually sold, we hoped to sell 100". Get off the piracy case the people who pirate never had an intention of buying in the first place so it was never a lost sale and no stats or figures will or can ever show proof of the piracy damaging gaming because there is no baseline to work off of.loosingENDS

I dont understand

Just because they dont have the intention to buy, pirating a game and playing it to the end is not a lost sale ?

seems to be exactly that

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

lol your wrong man PC piracy is at a complete minimum its the 360 piracy thats bad oh the pc version gets released a month or more earlier always but since there is no crack for it they cant play it...etc..etc

loosingENDS

360 piracy is bad ?

The whu did Fabllefield 3 sell 2.5 million on 360 and only 500K on PC ?

Piracy seems 100x worst on PC imo

Because Fable 3 was considered rubbish by the PC community (and many many reviewers) so obviously not many PC gamers would by it.

The question is is would Arma 2 have sold 30 million copies if piracy was non-existant?

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

360 piracy is bad ?

The whu did Fabllefield 3 sell 2.5 million on 360 and only 500K on PC ?

Piracy seems 100x worst on PC imo

Inconsistancy

I dont understand

Just because they dont have the intention to buy, pirating a game and playing it to the end is not a lost sale ?

seems to be exactly that

loosingENDS

No, 'cause you wouldn't have bought it in the first place. It's like swtor, if I never played the beta, I would have never bought it, it's not a lost sale if I play the beta and don't consider buying it, I wasn't going to.

So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

Lets say that pirates are jus stealing the game than paying for it, which is what is happening and that is all pirates, not those that only had the intention to buy it

In fact pirates are exactly those that dont have the intention to buy a game, only to play it for free, which is stealing

So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

loosingENDS

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

JohnF111

But the money they would get still vanish and the pirate still plays a game he should have paid for, which is still stealing, stealing digital content is no different than stealing

Also lets say one pirates a 10.000$ software and uses it for his work, since he would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

"However, our statistics from multiplayer show that for every three legitimate buyers playing their game in multiplayer, there are 100 (failed) attempts to play with a pirated version. This indicates that piracy is an extremely widespread problem on PC, and it's also really worrying for us as a mid-sized, independent, PC-oriented developer. We do not have any such data for single-player, but I'm afraid there the ratio of pirates to legitimate gamers is undoubtedly much worse."

Source: PC Gamer

waltefmoney

Misleading title. 100 unique pirates is a grossly inflated number in this context, several of them spam just like people do when windows freezes ;) Never seen anyone torture the OK button when nothing happens?

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

loosingENDS

But the money they would get still vanish

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="JohnF111"] You're using a physical theft to a digital theft, stealing the TV is a missing item, a digital copy is not physical and means it doesn't suddenly vanish from the true owners PC(or store).

JohnF111

But the money they would get still vanish

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

While it's true that not all of those pirated copies would have equaled a sale for them, I'm going to guess that most of them would have.

It's sad. These people, who obviously can afford a decent PC rig (otherwise they couldn't be runing ARMA 2), who obviously like the paltform and the types of games that can only be found on it, REFUSE to support it in any way, shape or form.

The same stupid, entitled, brats then start to complain when companies start to release console ports instead of proper PC games. And of course, instead of supporting the platform for PC-centric devs like Bohemia, they use this as "rationale" for further pirating.

Pisses me off. Wish those guys would grwo the F up and pay for their entertainment like the rest of us, or go buy a console. We real PC gamers don't want you on our platform!

Get the hell out.

Kinthalis

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue. It's kind of disheartening to see so many PC Gamers try to justify or excuse the piracy. A HUGE number of PC Gamers are actively undermining the viability of PC Gaming, and the rest of the PC Gamers mainly seem to cover their eyes and pretend that it's not really that big a deal. It's the developers fault, the Medias fault, its MS fault, its Activations fault, its UbiSofts fault, they didn't release a demo, they had bugs, they also made games for consoles, they only care about the money, I didn't really want the game anyways... For some strange reason it's never the bloody pirates fault.

The number of excuses and justifications are mind blowing. And then those same people have the audacity to cry and whine when developers decide to work on mutli-plat games to improve their profits.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

But the money they would get still vanish

loosingENDS

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="JohnF111"] What money? A thief steals things, he/she doesn't buy them so where does this so called "money" come from? Thin air?JohnF111

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

No, the idea is for each pirated copy used, the developers are deprived of the money it costs to play it

So, by the logic here, we can pirate all software and as long as we dont have the intention to buy it, it wont be a lost sale and stealing ?

Well, i dont think the developers would agree

Must be the worst excluse for stealing software i have ever read

[QUOTE="JohnF111"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

loosingENDS

No, the idea is for each pirated copy used, the developers are deprived of the money it costs to play it

So, by the logic here, we can pirate all software and as long as we dont have the intention to buy it, it wont be a lost sale and stealing ?

Well, i dont think the developers would agree

[QUOTE="JohnF111"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

But the money they would get still vanish

loosingENDS

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

Look at it like this:

Stealing a physical product increases the size of the financial hole you need to fill because your equity is directly reduced. A potential sale is lost.

Pirating a game however, does not directly reduce your equity because an individual copy does not represent it's own expense in digital form. It's also a potential lost sale of course.

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

JohnF111

Somebody still spent time programming it, testing it, and making sure it works.

Manhours of work do cost something. You wouldn't want to work all night on a paper and have your buddy hand it in as his own.

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

While it's true that not all of those pirated copies would have equaled a sale for them, I'm going to guess that most of them would have.

It's sad. These people, who obviously can afford a decent PC rig (otherwise they couldn't be runing ARMA 2), who obviously like the paltform and the types of games that can only be found on it, REFUSE to support it in any way, shape or form.

The same stupid, entitled, brats then start to complain when companies start to release console ports instead of proper PC games. And of course, instead of supporting the platform for PC-centric devs like Bohemia, they use this as "rationale" for further pirating.

Pisses me off. Wish those guys would grwo the F up and pay for their entertainment like the rest of us, or go buy a console. We real PC gamers don't want you on our platform!

Get the hell out.

Mazoch

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue. It's kind of disheartening to see so many PC Gamers try to justify or excuse the piracy. A HUGE number of PC Gamers are actively undermining the viability of PC Gaming, and the rest of the PC Gamers mainly seem to cover their eyes and pretend that it's not really that big a deal. It's the developers fault, the Medias fault, its MS fault, its Activations fault, its UbiSofts fault, they didn't release a demo, they had bugs, they also made games for consoles, they only care about the money, I didn't really want the game anyways... For some strange reason it's never the bloody pirates fault.

The number of excuses and justifications are mind blowing. And then those same people have the audacity to cry and whine when developers decide to work on mutli-plat games to improve their profits.

People justify the existance of piracy by stating that there is a misconception about what piracy actually is. There's probably a hundred different excuses for why people pirate, but it's only ever the negative that is mentioned especially amongst people who don't understand what piracy can be.

Take a look at this video, and you can understand to some degree piracy in the eyes of a "victim"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI

• Piracy can be someone wanting a demo
• Piracy can be someone wanting to see if a game will run on their hardware
• Piracy can be a legit buyer wanting to play their copy on multiple machines
• Piracy can be the shop owner in Asia with a stack of 300 bootleg Xbox games for sale supporting his family
• Piracy can be a guy who lost his original copy, and doesn't feel the need to purchase a new one
• Piracy can be due to the fact that a game isn't available in your territory

etc etc etc

The list goes on for what piracy is, and can be, but the only one anyone ever seems to focus on is "Piracy is a lost sale".

As I already commented on in this thread; would Arma 2 have sold 30 million copies without the existance of piracy? Do you think it lost 30 million sales? Or maybe many people had a different reason for pirating?

[QUOTE="JohnF111"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

loosingENDS

No, the idea is for each pirated copy used, the developers are deprived of the money it costs to play it

So, by the logic here, we can pirate all software and as long as we dont have the intention to buy it, it wont be a lost sale and stealing ?

Well, i dont think the developers would agree

Must be the worst excluse for stealing software i have ever read

No, you'd have to establish that the mindset was specifically:

"I could afford this, but I'll pirate it instead". (the intent to pirate)

If it is instead "It is impossible for me to afford this, I'll pirate it instead" that's not a lost sale, you can't expect that person to buy in the first place.

Or, (in demoless games) "I won't risk my money on a game type, hardware or developer I'm not confident about" You can't call that a lost sale, since, even if that person is spineless and loves the game and doesn't pay, they would have never payed in the first place.

It's a nice shade of gray, the law/piracy is, not so black and white.

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="JohnF111"] Your idea assumes for each pirated copy used, that someone else is deprived of the game, that is not how piracy works.JohnF111

No, the idea is for each pirated copy used, the developers are deprived of the money it costs to play it

So, by the logic here, we can pirate all software and as long as we dont have the intention to buy it, it wont be a lost sale and stealing ?

Well, i dont think the developers would agree

While it's obviously true that we have no way of knowing how many of those pirates would have bought the game if they didn't have access to the game for free, that discussion ends up being used to try to dismiss the severity of piracy.

Just because we cannot calculate the exact effect of piracy on the profits of Bohemia, doesn't mean that there's can be any doubt that having you product taken for free 30 times for each time you manage to sell a copy doesn't have a crippling effect on the viability of your business.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

The game they play is a "thing" and has a cost, it is not thin air

loosingENDS

No, the idea is for each pirated copy used, the developers are deprived of the money it costs to play it

So, by the logic here, we can pirate all software and as long as we dont have the intention to buy it, it wont be a lost sale and stealing ?

Well, i dont think the developers would agree

Must be the worst excluse for stealing software i have ever read

You don't grasp the basics here. The devs are deprived at most of a potential sale. There is no stat that can prove those that pirate would have purchased the game if it wasn't piratable.

1.It costs no money to play it. Just to develop it. That is a potential sale lost.

2. It doesn't really matter what the devs think, a pirated copy of a game does not equal a lost sale.

3. The 'logic' you state is part true. If you have no intention of pruchasing a game and pirate it, it cannot count as a lost sale obviously. Can you count all pirated copies as lost sales? No of course not. You would have to get into the mind of the pirater to know that.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

No, the idea is for each pirated copy used, the developers are deprived of the money it costs to play it

So, by the logic here, we can pirate all software and as long as we dont have the intention to buy it, it wont be a lost sale and stealing ?

Well, i dont think the developers would agree

Mazoch

While it's obviously true that we have no way of knowing how many of those pirates would have bought the game if they didn't have access to the game for free, that discussion ends up being used to try to dismiss the severity of piracy.

Just because we cannot calculate the exact effect of piracy on the profits of Bohemia, doesn't mean that there's can be any doubt that having you product taken for free 30 times for each time you manage to sell a copy doesn't have a crippling effect on the viability of your business.

'Crippling effect' is emotive and is based on nothing unless you assume that a good proportion of pirates would have bought the game. There is no evidence to support this. The crippling effect is generally down to the devs who make games that people do not want to buy.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

Wasdie

Somebody still spent time programming it, testing it, and making sure it works.

Manhours of work do cost something. You wouldn't want to work all night on a paper and have your buddy hand it in as his own.

Misleading title. 100 unique pirates is a grossly inflated number in this context, several of them spam just like people do when windows freezes ;) Never seen anyone torture the OK button when nothing happens?

MlauTheDaft

Guess you've got a point. Title changed.

lol your wrong man PC piracy is at a complete minimum its the 360 piracy thats bad oh the pc version gets released a month or more earlier always but since there is no crack for it they cant play it...etc..etc

WilliamRLBaker

Skyrim got pirated on xbox360 a full month before the PC version, what have you to say about that? lmao.

You are blind if you think PIracy is only big on PC, its big on all systems.

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

JohnF111

I just posted in another thread that gamers like free stuff. Case in point. Good grief.musicalmac

Glad I bought 3 copies of ARMA2 and also all the DLC/expansion packs for myself and my cousin :D

This thread is good for flushing out Pirates.

I just posted in another thread that gamers like free stuff. Case in point. Good grief.musicalmac

So do you think Arma 2 would have sold 30 million copies if piracy didn't exist?

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]So, i steal a 10.000$ TV and since i would not have bought it in the first place of course, it is not a lost sale and not stealing ?

That is the most unbleievable thing i have ever read

fadersdream