Crysis 2 PC already ravaged by piracy!

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

If it was so damaging to the industry, then publishers would have acted harsher on used games - none of this £10 online pass nonsense. At least with used games it's locked to one user at one time - and that one copy has been paid for. I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

AnnoyedDragon

Because no one who buys a second hand game sells it again?

How the publishers react to it is irrelevant, the fact that it has been legitimized via its legality makes it worse as far as I'm concerned. There are retailers that make a lot of their money through 2nd hand sales, they encourage people to swap their older games for newer ones; to help buff out their second hand section with recent titles.

Someone who enjoys a game from a 2nd hand sale is causing the exact same damage as someone who enjoys it via piracy, the people who made the game see none of the money. And who knows how many hands that second hand game changes through in today's disposable game culture, where they just sell off games they don't play regularly.

Anyone who says otherwise is downplaying as far as I'm concerned. Has probably purchased 2nd hand games, and are trying to rationalize it in a manner that doesn't make them feel guilty. Isn't nice is it? Being accused of hurting the games industry. Now they know how every PC gamer feels, when someone decides to blame and punish them for piracy; when their entire collection is legit.

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

edidili

Well for developers there is not much difference between you and a pirate. Neither one of you is paying them.

I don't see how 10,000 is a small number. It is said that Crysis only sold 86,633 units in its first two weeks. And this 10,000 is four weeks before the game is released? Yikes.LOXO7

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

If it was so damaging to the industry, then publishers would have acted harsher on used games - none of this £10 online pass nonsense. At least with used games it's locked to one user at one time - and that one copy has been paid for. I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

HuusAsking

Because no one who buys a second hand game sells it again?

How the publishers react to it is irrelevant, the fact that it has been legitimized via its legality makes it worse as far as I'm concerned. There are retailers that make a lot of their money through 2nd hand sales, they encourage people to swap their older games for newer ones; to help buff out their second hand section with recent titles.

Someone who enjoys a game from a 2nd hand sale is causing the exact same damage as someone who enjoys it via piracy, the people who made the game see none of the money. And who knows how many hands that second hand game changes through in today's disposable game culture, where they just sell off games they don't play regularly.

Anyone who says otherwise is downplaying as far as I'm concerned. Has probably purchased 2nd hand games, and are trying to rationalize it in a manner that doesn't make them feel guilty. Isn't nice is it? Being accused of hurting the games industry. Now they know how every PC gamer feels, when someone decides to blame and punish them for piracy; when their entire collection is legit.

[QUOTE="edidili"]

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

Ravensmash

Well for developers there is not much difference between you and a pirate. Neither one of you is paying them.

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

If it was so damaging to the industry, then publishers would have acted harsher on used games - none of this £10 online pass nonsense. At least with used games it's locked to one user at one time - and that one copy has been paid for. I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

AnnoyedDragon

Because no one who buys a second hand game sells it again?

How the publishers react to it is irrelevant, the fact that it has been legitimized via its legality makes it worse as far as I'm concerned. There are retailers that make a lot of their money through 2nd hand sales, they encourage people to swap their older games for newer ones; to help buff out their second hand section with recent titles.

Someone who enjoys a game from a 2nd hand sale is causing the exact same damage as someone who enjoys it via piracy, the people who made the game see none of the money. And who knows how many hands that second hand game changes through in today's disposable game culture, where they just sell off games they don't play regularly.

Anyone who says otherwise is downplaying as far as I'm concerned. Has probably purchased 2nd hand games, and are trying to rationalize it in a manner that doesn't make them feel guilty. Isn't nice is it? Being accused of hurting the games industry. Now they know how every PC gamer feels, when someone decides to blame and punish them for piracy; when their entire collection is legit.

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

If it was so damaging to the industry, then publishers would have acted harsher on used games - none of this £10 online pass nonsense. At least with used games it's locked to one user at one time - and that one copy has been paid for. I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

HuusAsking

Because no one who buys a second hand game sells it again?

How the publishers react to it is irrelevant, the fact that it has been legitimized via its legality makes it worse as far as I'm concerned. There are retailers that make a lot of their money through 2nd hand sales, they encourage people to swap their older games for newer ones; to help buff out their second hand section with recent titles.

Someone who enjoys a game from a 2nd hand sale is causing the exact same damage as someone who enjoys it via piracy, the people who made the game see none of the money. And who knows how many hands that second hand game changes through in today's disposable game culture, where they just sell off games they don't play regularly.

Anyone who says otherwise is downplaying as far as I'm concerned. Has probably purchased 2nd hand games, and are trying to rationalize it in a manner that doesn't make them feel guilty. Isn't nice is it? Being accused of hurting the games industry. Now they know how every PC gamer feels, when someone decides to blame and punish them for piracy; when their entire collection is legit.

[QUOTE="LOXO7"]I don't see how 10,000 is a small number. It is said that Crysis only sold 86,633 units in its first two weeks. And this 10,000 is four weeks before the game is released? Yikes.GeneralShowzer

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

Because no one who buys a second hand game sells it again?

How the publishers react to it is irrelevant, the fact that it has been legitimized via its legality makes it worse as far as I'm concerned. There are retailers that make a lot of their money through 2nd hand sales, they encourage people to swap their older games for newer ones; to help buff out their second hand section with recent titles.

Someone who enjoys a game from a 2nd hand sale is causing the exact same damage as someone who enjoys it via piracy, the people who made the game see none of the money. And who knows how many hands that second hand game changes through in today's disposable game culture, where they just sell off games they don't play regularly.

Anyone who says otherwise is downplaying as far as I'm concerned. Has probably purchased 2nd hand games, and are trying to rationalize it in a manner that doesn't make them feel guilty. Isn't nice is it? Being accused of hurting the games industry. Now they know how every PC gamer feels, when someone decides to blame and punish them for piracy; when their entire collection is legit.

True_Gamer_

PS. Books, music, and movies are also IP.

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"][QUOTE="LOXO7"]I don't see how 10,000 is a small number. It is said that Crysis only sold 86,633 units in its first two weeks. And this 10,000 is four weeks before the game is released? Yikes.LOXO7

No copies have been pirated, no copies have been sold.

Whats to worry about?

[QUOTE="LOXO7"]

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] :o... Maybe North America retail. Which is the most unimportant part in PC gaming. The game sold 3 million. ChubbyGuy40

No copies have been pirated, no copies have been sold.

Whats to worry about?

The thing is, why do used media need to be quashed when there is a used market for practically everything (even diapers---unused ones, mind you)? Why don't car dealers gripe about used car lots? Why don't appliance makers complain about thrift stores that sell appliances? Closer to home, what about book and movie publishers and the secondhand books and movies that trade hands regularly?HuusAsking

The software market is treated differently from physical objects. We are not buying products, we are buying licenses. You can do whatever you want with a physical object and it is yours, but you can breach a license agreement; and lose the rights to your product. Technology is just too slow to keep up with enforcing this, but they are getting there. Like how a copy of windows deactivates when it thinks you have breached the license. There isn't a 2nd hand market for licenses, yet.

This! The copy that I've purchased has already been 'paid' for by another customer, who has given up his right to access the content. That is NOT the same as piracy.Ravensmash

You are just latching on to any rational that enables you to shrug off the actual impact. Piracy and 2nd hand sales cause the same damage, no rationalizing will change that.

You're just looking for ways to make yourself feel better about buying a second hand games, because you don't like being accused of hurting game companies. Which is understandable, I don't like PC gamers getting accused of hurting their own platform; when all my games are legit. But you cannot pretend 2nd hand sales aren't a problem.

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]The thing is, why do used media need to be quashed when there is a used market for practically everything (even diapers---unused ones, mind you)? Why don't car dealers gripe about used car lots? Why don't appliance makers complain about thrift stores that sell appliances? Closer to home, what about book and movie publishers and the secondhand books and movies that trade hands regularly?AnnoyedDragon

The software market is treated differently from physical objects. We are not buying products, we are buying licenses. You can do whatever you want with a physical object and it is yours, but you can breach a license agreement; and lose the rights to your product. Technology is just too slow to keep up with enforcing this, but they are getting there. Like how a copy of windows deactivates when it thinks you have breached the license. There isn't a 2nd hand market for licenses, yet.

BTW, the license is itself a salable good, attached to a physical product often, and sellable (the only way they can restrict that is to not make it a sale--that makes it a lease, which cannot be handled by a retailer--business software leases are handled directly by the publishers or by legally-designated representatives).

What about books and movies, which are also intellectual property and predate computer software? There have been attempts to restrict their resale and reuse (I believe that's one reason the Copyright Act of 1976, which predates modern computing, is written the way it is). What about the whole music war of the 20th century with the advents of radio and recordable media like the audio cassette?

BTW, the license is itself a salable good, attached to a physical product often, and sellable (the only way they can restrict that is to not make it a sale--that makes it a lease, which cannot be handled by a retailer--business software leases are handled directly by the publishers or by legally-designated representatives).

HuusAsking

We can waste time arguing over whether games should be treated the same as other second hand goods, or we can look at the simple truth. 2nd hand sales take sales away from the producer of the product, because someone is enjoying the product without paying the producer. Someone who is enjoying a game without any of the money going to those who helped make it, is no different from piracy.

Now you can argue that other products sell 2nd hand; and that game companies have no right to take issue to this, but they do. They're not going to stop caring because people think they should, and this form of resale having the same impact as piracy is the case whether people argue these sales are honest or not.

Debating what should be the case, isn't going to change what is the case. And quite frankly I see all this as people trying to convince themselves, by convincing others, that them buying 2nd hand while condemning pirates is not hypercritical. People debate this issue not because they think the outcome is wrong, but because they don't like being compared to pirates.

Of course they're waiting for the final version to pirate. Why would they get the half when they can wait a bit longer to get a full version for free?

I tried it and love the game now, before i would have passed but after playing it they have my money day 1.

I think the second game is a little better in some areas than the first.

Anyway if you're on the fence on whether or not to buy it there's an entire live playthrough here

PC shooters are routinely pirated at over 50% and I don't think Crysis 2 will be an exception.

dc337

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

What about books and movies, which are also intellectual property and predate computer software? There have been attempts to restrict their resale and reuse (I believe that's one reason the Copyright Act of 1976, which predates modern computing, is written the way it is). What about the whole music war of the 20th century with the advents of radio and recordable media like the audio cassette?

BTW, the license is itself a salable good, attached to a physical product often, and sellable (the only way they can restrict that is to not make it a sale--that makes it a lease, which cannot be handled by a retailer--business software leases are handled directly by the publishers or by legally-designated representatives).

AnnoyedDragon

We can waste time arguing over whether games should be treated the same as other second hand goods, or we can look at the simple truth. 2nd hand sales take sales away from the producer of the product, because someone is enjoying the product without paying the producer. Someone who is enjoying a game without any of the money going to those who helped make it, is no different from piracy.

Now you can argue that other products sell 2nd hand; and that game companies have no right to take issue to this, but they do. They're not going to stop caring because people think they should, and this form of resale having the same impact as piracy is the case whether people argue these sales are honest or not.

Debating what should be the case, isn't going to change what is the case. And quite frankly I see all this as people trying to convince themselves, by convincing others, that them buying 2nd hand while condemning pirates is not hypercritical. People debate this issue not because they think the outcome is wrong, but because they don't like being compared to pirates.

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

What about books and movies, which are also intellectual property and predate computer software? There have been attempts to restrict their resale and reuse (I believe that's one reason the Copyright Act of 1976, which predates modern computing, is written the way it is). What about the whole music war of the 20th century with the advents of radio and recordable media like the audio cassette?

BTW, the license is itself a salable good, attached to a physical product often, and sellable (the only way they can restrict that is to not make it a sale--that makes it a lease, which cannot be handled by a retailer--business software leases are handled directly by the publishers or by legally-designated representatives).

AnnoyedDragon

We can waste time arguing over whether games should be treated the same as other second hand goods, or we can look at the simple truth. 2nd hand sales take sales away from the producer of the product, because someone is enjoying the product without paying the producer. Someone who is enjoying a game without any of the money going to those who helped make it, is no different from piracy.

Now you can argue that other products sell 2nd hand; and that game companies have no right to take issue to this, but they do. They're not going to stop caring because people think they should, and this form of resale having the same impact as piracy is the case whether people argue these sales are honest or not.

Debating what should be the case, isn't going to change what is the case. And quite frankly I see all this as people trying to convince themselves, by convincing others, that them buying 2nd hand while condemning pirates is not hypercritical. People debate this issue not because they think the outcome is wrong, but because they don't like being compared to pirates.

The thing is, why do used media need to be quashed when there is a used market for practically everything (even diapers---unused ones, mind you)? Why don't car dealers gripe about used car lots? Why don't appliance makers complain about thrift stores that sell appliances? Closer to home, what about book and movie publishers and the secondhand books and movies that trade hands regularly?HuusAsking

Any industry that can will tap into other markets to make up for their lost sales.

The movie industry makes money each year from ticket sales at theatres

The music industry makes money from licensing music for use in TV shows, commercials, movies, video games, etc

Car companies like Toyota, and Ford actually open up their own used car lots.

Video game companies complain because for what they invest a lot of times they don't make as much of a return as they'd want to with piracy/used game sales in the way which is why this gen we've seen so many new ways for them to make money. Online passes, DLC, subscriptions, etc.

[QUOTE="edidili"]

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]

I buy used games all the time, and whilst I'd buy more new games if they were cheaper to benefit devs...I do not think it is fair to claim it's = piracy.

Ravensmash

Well for developers there is not much difference between you and a pirate. Neither one of you is paying them.

Again, legally you are different from a pirate. Nothing stops you from getting used games while a pirate, well he breaks the law.

However in the eyes of the developers you are not that much different. Neither you nor the pirate is paying them. The law allows you to do whatever you want with your disc so developers can't do anything about it.

Used gaming and piracy are not the same. Used gaming doesn't copy into more copies. Piracy does. 1 to 1 when it comes to the transfer of used gaming while. 1 to 10 or more when it comes to piracy.alexside1

When you are done downplaying, perhaps you should read my earlier comment; about 2nd hand games being sold back and resold multiple times.

Can a 2nd hand sale be duplicated at the same rate as a pirate download? No, but that wasn't the argument I was making. I was arguing that it causes the same damage, someone is enjoying the game; and the developers didn't get paid.

The end result is identical, no amount of rationalizing and downplaying will change that.

Sorry they feel that way, but this is "The Cost of Doing Business". Any seller is going to lost sales to resale, and the videogaming sector is no different. And the idea that a copy stays pristine as it changes hands? Total baloney. The most-valued games, like anything, are shrink-wrapped, in-the-box, never-used copies of the classics. If videogaming companies want to curb the resale of games, I have a novel idea: make games worth keeping. After all, you can't have a used game buyer without a used game seller.HuusAsking

Do you know why I think some console gamers so aggressively reject the sort of things I've said?

Have you ever spoken to a vegetarian that is in it for the ego? They don't actually care about animals, they just adopted a life style they believe makes them better than everyone else; and they enjoy this status. They boast about having a death free life, and frequently criticise anyone who eats meat as being despicable and causing needles suffering. But one day, some figures come out as to the indirect deaths cause by the vegetarian diet. Wildlife living in the crop fields, pesticide poisoning and mass deaths during harvest time. All the sudden their death free diet isn't so death free.

So do they adjust their life style to accommodate this new information? Do they find more field animal friendly suppliers? No. They change their line from being death free, to causing the least harm. It never was about avoiding killing animals, it was about feeling superior to everyone else. Rather than change themselves, they simply changed the line they use to feel higher than thou.

Console fanboys love criticising and boasting at PC gamers about piracy, they love declaring that PC gamers are killing their own platform; and that they deserve everything they get. They enjoy feeling morally superior to PC gamers, many of which don't steal their games; but that not being of any importance. They are a console gamer, piracy is minor than PC on consoles, this makes them "better" than PC gamers.

But then comes along a little inconvenient information. All the sudden they find out, all those cheap 2nd hand sales they were enjoying, caused the same sort of damage as piracy. So do they change their behaviour? Do they stop using 2nd hand games, in order to maintain their position of innocence? No. They rationalize, spin, and argue their way into maintaining what they enjoy doing; while trying to maintain the air that they are still morally superior to PC gamers.

To me, that's all this is about.

[QUOTE="alexside1"] Used gaming and piracy are not the same. Used gaming doesn't copy into more copies. Piracy does. 1 to 1 when it comes to the transfer of used gaming while. 1 to 10 or more when it comes to piracy.AnnoyedDragon

When you are done downplaying, perhaps you should read my earlier comment; about 2nd hand games being sold back and resold multiple times.

Can a 2nd hand sale be duplicated at the same rate as a pirate download? No, but that wasn't the argument I was making. I was arguing that it causes the same damage, someone is enjoying the game; and the developers didn't get paid.

The end result is identical, no amount of rationalizing and downplaying will change that.

Sorry they feel that way, but this is "The Cost of Doing Business". Any seller is going to lost sales to resale, and the videogaming sector is no different. And the idea that a copy stays pristine as it changes hands? Total baloney. The most-valued games, like anything, are shrink-wrapped, in-the-box, never-used copies of the classics. If videogaming companies want to curb the resale of games, I have a novel idea: make games worth keeping. After all, you can't have a used game buyer without a used game seller.HuusAsking

Do you know why I think some console gamers so aggressively reject the sort of things I've said?

Have you ever spoken to a vegetarian that is in it for the ego? They don't actually care about animals, they just adopted a life style they believe makes them better than everyone else; and they enjoy this status. They boast about having a death free life, and frequently criticise anyone who eats meat as being despicable and causing needles suffering. But one day, some figures come out as to the indirect deaths cause by the vegetarian diet. Wildlife living in the crop fields, pesticide poisoning and mass deaths during harvest time. All the sudden their death free diet isn't so death free.

So do they adjust their life style to accommodate this new information? Do they find more field animal friendly suppliers? No. They change their line from being death free, to causing the least harm. It never was about avoiding killing animals, it was about feeling superior to everyone else. Rather than change themselves, they simply changed the line they use to feel higher than thou.

Console fanboys love criticising and boasting at PC gamers about piracy, they love declaring that PC gamers are killing their own platform; and that they deserve everything they get. They enjoy feeling morally superior to PC gamers, many of which don't steal their games; but that not being of any importance. They are a console gamer, piracy is minor than PC on consoles, this makes them "better" than PC gamers.

But then comes along a little inconvenient information. All the sudden they find out, all those cheap 2nd hand sales they were enjoying, caused the same sort of damage as piracy. So do they change their behaviour? Do they stop using 2nd hand games, in order to maintain their position of innocence? No. They rationalize, spin, and argue their way into maintaining what they enjoy doing; while trying to maintain the air that they are still morally superior to PC gamers.

To me, that's all this is about.

Looks like you can't handle criticism.alexside1

He's taking it quite well actually.

I'm not one to argue about putting sense into piracy, but a pirated game is not necessarily a lost sale, just a lost oppurtunity. There is no gaurantee that the game would've been bought/sold had it not been available to pirate in the first place.

While piracy is something to consider and a bit of a nagging fly, it's not much of a real excuse in my book to not release a game on a platform.

PC_Otter

Rightly Said