DICE Dev: Xbox One Isn’t As Powerful As PS4, DX12 Won’t Help Reduce Difference

@magicalclick: because the guy in the article has no clue. Putting the tag "Dev" on some comments is not honest. Product managers, designers, and artist are also called "devs".

@StormyJoe: I must admit it's not often we agree with each other, makes a pleasant change :)

DX12 will improve the abysmal CPU performance on PC, lack of true threading support has been a well known and documented issue on PC for years.

As consoles are a closed box system that have extremely streamlined API's and deeper optimizations they do not have any where near the same limitations as a PC does so any improvements will be limited to none existent, this has been uttered now by more then one development house.

Cuz it's about Xbone and PS4. We know what DX12 or Vulkan ( Mantle already did ) will do to PC. Btw. Xbone has DX12 features SINCE LAUNCH!

What's your point? You think that improved eSRAM performance with DX12 will suddenly make almost every game on Xbone at 1080p? NO! Because it's 32 MB. You think that improved eSRAM perfomance with DX12, bandwidth speed will jump and get closer to GDDR5 bandwidth speed on PS4! NO! Bandwidth will remain the same! It is impossible to get close!

DX12 will never make an Xbox One as, or even more, powerful as the PS4 that's completely impossible, software cannot make hardware stronger, but it may bring it closer to parity through more efficient use of the hardware.

Tell me, Stormy, you think that only Xbone will improve? How is possible that Xbone will come closer to PS4 if PS4 software efficiency will also improve?

Oh yes, you've read somewhere something.

He said I "think" Think is not a for sure word. However I could care less I'm switching to PS4 myself here lately after my XB1 breaking down and having to be sent to the repair center. XB1 is cheap made junk!

It's easier to optimize a closed system than an open one....

Microsoft has improved the APIs for XB1 several times - and DX12 is an API.

DX12 is a more efficient API. than DX11.x that's a fact. Being more efficient the hardware use will be better and improvements will follow.

I expect to see Vulcan bringing benefits to PS4 when that releases as well and also expect to see all the people saying DX12 will do nothing for Xbox One hailing it as the software to turn PS4 in a super computer with the strength of SLI Titans.

DX12 also comes with new API features and increased performance for operations. Standard upgrades. DX12 will help devs get better looking graphics out of the Xbox One hardware.

It's just that an API change cannot overcome a hardware gap. Sony increases the performance of the PS4 via software updates as much as Microsoft does with the Xbox. The compiler is always getting better, the API is always becoming a bit more optimized and fully featured. These are yearly improvements that are logical from a support standpoint. You always want to give your devs better tools and as much possible performance as you can.

No it hasn't, stupid. It has some. A lot has been re-written. You don't know what you are talking about.

When did I say that if developers use DX12 for PS4 that it won't improve PS4's performance? But, Playstation developers use Sony's API, not Direct X

People who data mined the Battlefront alpha and beta said there are already references to DX12 all throughout the engine. DICE is going to do it right, which involves some serious redesign. It's going to take them a few years to implement it properly. When they do it should give a huge boost to weaker CPU performance. That and give them the ability to do more draw calls which helps with visual diversity on the screen.

DICE was one of the leading players with AMD's Mantle. Mantle is kind of responsible for Microsoft's push towards DX12 and the creation of Vulkan. Basically DICE and AMD were getting sick of waiting for a modern API to be developed so they came up with Mantle. The benefits in BF4 were kind of huge if you had a weaker AMD CPU.

Getting better performance out of weaker CPUs is very important for consoles as they'll always go with the weakest hardware they can get away with to keep the price down. It's also good for mobile computing as those CPUs are kept weaker to keep heat down and battery life up.

So now the top sentence contradicts the bottom one... nice...

Yeah but the most performance potential a console API can bring is to the metal hardware usage. And the Xbox One can already do that, so can the PS4 or any other console before it. It's not like the Xbox One was using a clumsy PC version of DX11 with massive CPU overheads and no metal access, so the difference between DX11 on X1 now and DX12 won't be anywhere near as dramatic as on PC where it's gaining like 10 times more draw calls and for the first time ever on PC, low level access. Two things the Xbox One has had since launch.

DX12's biggest effect on Xbone will be the ports of Windows 10 games, meaning more games to play in the long run. As for the performance being significantly different, don't count on it.

Again, exactly what I was saying. DX12 will not make the XB1 more powerful than the PS4. But, it certainly could narrow the gap. Like the Warhammer 40,000 dev said recently.

Even if i didn't wrote "some", we all know what is meant. You said that it won't improve much because you've read somewhere that PS4 is already improved. LOL. There you go :

@magicalclick: " Its not that they are doing nothing about it, I highly doubt that is the case. The reason you did not see any mention of it is because the guy talking is not a graphics programmer he is a gameplay designer. Its not a knock on him, but if you were to talk to a Graphics Programmer who works on their engine he would give you a more complete view of their D3d12 integration strategy.

It will only narrow the gap...IF....IF...... PS4's API doesn't see any improvements for the rest of it's life span..... which isn't going to happen...... As PS4 improves the gap will be maintained.

Where Warhammer 40 000 dev said that DX 12 will narrow the gap between Xbone and PS4? I can't believe that is your conclusion ONLY! Unbeliavable! Unbeliavable! Just shut up, dude.

@magicalclick: Yes.

Not ONCE.... Not ANYWHERE in that article did ANY Warhammer dev say what you are claiming.... you are full of it.

I can't wait for new consoles. These things are already washed up.

Oh well yeah I have no doubt DX12 will come with improved development tools. But the point is, even if DX12 never came to Xbox One as is, they would have upgraded the SDK's like any other console developer does anyway. Just like they did throughout the OG Xbox and the 360's lifecycle without making a fuss about it. The key features of a console API are already present on Xbox One. They saw marketing and buzzword potential with DX12 basically. But Sony and Nintendo have it covered in the same department.

DX12 will have improved tools and better porting to and from Windows 10 devices. PS4's next SDK update will have the same, only there won't be as many song and dances around it.

I think most lemmings agreed with that, but a select few idiots here refused to believe it.

@bobrossperm: this is somewhat true. Problem is Direct X has been dealing with legacy code for a long time. They have optimized and improved what they could but the core of the library was still outdated attempting to refactor that core is what lead to them building a new code base for Dx12. The key feature is the multi threaded command submissions, there are lots of features that already exist, but they are not as effective as they will be until the core of d3d12 is being used. D3d12.x is not an optimized version of d3d11.x they both have to be maintained until d3d11.x is no longer supported.

So basically you're getting nothing except NOW you can't play online UNLESS you pay. Good job pointing that out.

I wanted to bash my head against wall when for the very first time (back in 2009) I heard an idiot saying that he prefers lower fps because they are more cinematic. It made me speechless.

I am amazed that I apparently have to provide proof of everything I say, as though every post is a term paper. Oh, well - read on. Or, I will quote:

"“Sony’s own custom API is more low-level and definitely something that graphics programmers love. It gives you a lot of control. DirectX 12 will be a bit more abstract because it has to work with many different GPUs, while the PS4 API can go down to the metal,” he said. It is important to clarify and note here that Wolfgang’s this statement does not mean that Microsoft’s DirectX 12 is of no good. In fact he believes that the upcoming API will surely turn out to be great for the Xbox One console.Read more: http://wccftech.com/ps4-api-graphics-programmers-love-specific-gpu-optimizations-improve-performance/#ixzz3ol7khvQf"

--Confetti FX’s founder Wolfgang Engel

I think (not sure) that is true for movies? Didn't people get on Jackson's ass for The Hobbit being at 60fps?

That's wonderful speculation. But, it doesn't change the fact that DX12 will narrow the gap a bit.

So, you are basically saying "As of right now, you are right.". Thanks for seeing the light.

You you speculate on DX12 and that's acceptable but me saying the same about PS4 is not acceptable?

Once again... you're full of it...... now reply to my other post.... please point out where that Warhamer dev said what you claimed...

A lot of people I know preferred it in 60fps though. As for games,,, I was having a discussion with a guy. He owned PS3 and told me that my PC is useless because his PS3 makes games more cinematic. That was the first time when I heard this crap. I was like "Wha... I don't even...". I mean that's so stupid.

As i said, you've read it somewhere. You KNOW SHIT ABOUT GAME DEVELOPMENT ON CONSOLE. Anyway, where it says in the article that gap will narrow?

Of course, IT'S YOUR IMAGINATION!

I've been saying this forever. DX12 will probably improve X1, the degree to which it will is the debatable part. But Sony will improve tools on PS4 as well. Both companies will keep improving system tools throughout the generation and the gap will likely remain the same. There's no getting around having 6 less GPU compute units than your competitor.

@StormyJoe: lower fps works for movies because you need the audience to not realize how much of the movie is fake. Running at a high Fps with movies ruins the illusion. In video games it works the opposite, you want players to be fully immersed in the world they are participating in, since games dont use live assets you need the response to feel natural. There was a article about the science behind this not long ago if i find it ill send you the link.

Same shit happend last-genereation, same shit happened generation before that. AND GAP ALWAYS REMAINED THE SAME! ALWAYS!

StormyJoe has be blown away... lmao

@imt558: I think you are mixing two things together. The "gap" you are talking about is the Hardware, shader count, rops etc. That will never improve, but there is also a performance gap. That gap(performance) is directly related to the api used to communicate with the hardware and that gap will change over the life cycle.

Only last gen the gap was difficult to measure because of how different the architecture of the PS3 was from the Xbox 360.

I wasn't disagreeing with the other fellow. :-)

WTF? You asked me for a quote about Sony's efficient APIs for the PS4.

I know how to write software (whereas, you know nothing about it at all). I never claimed to be a game developing expert. However, it is still programming - and most of the concepts are the same across all software development.

I agree. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't. I was just mentioning that I seem to remember for movies, most people prefer 30fps; which is where I think the "cinematic experience" comment came from.

There is zero information on the next API for the PS4, that's not true for DX12.

"please point out where that Warhamer dev said what you claimed" I believe I answered all of them. To which are you referring?

It won't narrow the gap. Sony upgrades their API just like Microsoft. The gap is never going away through software improvements. As Microsoft makes improvements, Sony will too. Both will keep making their API more capable and more optimized while giving their developers better tools to get the most out of the hardware.

The only time Microsoft could close the gap with software is if Sony just stopped providing updates to their frimware, compilers, and API. They won't so it's moot. You're saying something along the lines "for the few weeks that DX12 has been implemented for the Xbox One the gap will be smaller" and trying to use that as a "victory". You're gasping at straws with that one.

Just accept that the Xbox One is and always shall remain less powerful no matter what. API upgrades have negligible effect on existing games too. Only games that are built with the changes get any benifit. So for during those few weeks where DX12 may have an extra feature or two that does close the gap, if no games come out supporting it, you would never even know.

Basically this stuff happens all behind the scenes. For us end users it's completely irrelevant to a point it's not even worth arguing about. Over the course of a generation we'll see games looking better on both platforms. That's it.

@StormyJoe: I didn't think you were everyone is not here to attack u bro his having a conversation. Lol relax

What WTF? And i NEVER mentioned that PS4 use Direct X. I don't know why you gave me that link in previous post. Hm... You clearly said that PS4 performance won't improve much. I quoted your post from other thread. Again :

You read something somewhere! AND the funniest part is that "NARROWING THE GAP" IS YOUR CONCLUSION AND IMAGINATION! Even if i don't know nothing about how to write software. At least i don't spew shit like you and "narrowing the gap" thing! LOL.

Again, that implies that "everything is equal". If PS4's APIs are already at the base level, so I am not that sure there is a lot of room for improvement. DX12 fixes a lot of problems for XB1 that the PS4 never had.

Sony keeps it's API information closer to the chest. They don't do public announcements with it because there is no point. Outside of a handful of people arguing on the internet about which console is more powerful, API changes and what not are irrelevant to everybody but devs.

We do know historically that Sony does update their machine's OS and improves compiler performance as well as continues to support and upgrade their API. We don't need to know the details.

The specifics are meaningless.

different developers say different things. Ark Survival Evolve's devs say the Xbox One cpu is more powerful and easier to program for. Everyone knows the PS4 is a bit more powerful, but it also boils down to the skill of the devs themselves. DICE is known for phoning in games lately. It's also very possible it's PR speak considering how much money Sony dumped on them for the SWBF marketing deal. So yeah he's gonna say things favorably to the guys signing his checks.