Do you really trust Microsoft?

[QUOTE="Murderstyle75"][QUOTE="heretrix"]The thing is Steam Isn't like that so your "point" is moot.

heretrix

That is only a small part of it. Steam has success because Valve is insanely good at PR and has lead the charge in what a consumer friendly digital distribution platform should be. They aren't perfect, but they are insanely good at upholding the illusion of balance.

It's like you've never used Steam before.

The real question should be, "Do you trust Sony.?" They've lied about something before every console was launched. Didn't they say :Online Multiplayer would always be FREE."? Just one lie among many to follow. blackace

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

[QUOTE="Murderstyle75"] Point is not moot at all. Steam has success because of insane game discounts. Consoles do not. Its much easier to swallow DRM when the games are priced cheaper than the difference you would get back by buying and later selling a console title.Murderstyle75

That is only a small part of it. Steam has success because Valve is insanely good at PR and has lead the charge in what a consumer friendly digital distribution platform should be. They aren't perfect, but they are insanely good at upholding the illusion of balance.

It's like you've never used Steam before.

no

[QUOTE="Murderstyle75"][QUOTE="heretrix"]

That is only a small part of it. Steam has success because Valve is insanely good at PR and has lead the charge in what a consumer friendly digital distribution platform should be. They aren't perfect, but they are insanely good at upholding the illusion of balance.

It's like you've never used Steam before.

heretrix

MS is like a date rapist. They got caught trying to roofie you and now they wanna make it up to you by buying you another drink. Would you really trust someone like that?

MS is like a date rapist. They got caught trying to roofie you and now they wanna make it up to you by buying you another drink. Would you really trust someone like that?

guard12

what is it with you guys and the rape analogies?

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

People were far too quick to attack the Xbox One before ever trying to even attempt to understand it.

Ly_the_Fairy

Microsoft definitely failed, but gamers are too.

Just as nobody should take good news from a company at face value, so should people not take bad news at face value.

Consumers have the ability to research the Xbox One BEYOND what Microsoft tells them, yet they didn't. They instead chose to put on their blinders, and tunnel vision Microsoft without getting the full picture of what MS was doing.

I agree Microsoft could have done better at informing the gaming community, but the gaming community didn't even attempt to inform themselves.

I understand that people will jump to conclusions but MS allowed them to.  The problem was they didn't give us the full picture from the start.  They were forced to come out and elaborate on their policies later on when the uproar had already reached a peak and the damage had already been done.  It was as if they really didn't have anything concrete at all except that there would be some sort of DRM and mandatory Internet requirement.  They'd subtly leak this out in their reveal and see the reaction, then come out and clarify.  

They showed NO benefit to go along with these new restrictions.  Everyone searched for the good side and saw none, and that's why everyone jumped to conclusions.....because that's all MS gave them.  No assurances that we'd be seeing reduced prices.  No assurances of any type of trading/selling (only vague "we're exploring the possibilities").  No assurances that our purchases would be secure 20 years down the road.  They needed to come out with a set plan, shoving benefits in our faces.  I don't blame gamers one bit.  There are always going to be haters, but had MS done this properly the haters would've been in the vocal minority.

Coming out with such a drastic change without explicit explanation on every single possible element was suicide and they should've known better.  I was an ardent supporter of MS this gen, and as a supporter (and lover) of Steam, I'm open to adopting a similar model for consoles.  But not how they presented it.  It was a PR failure like I've never seen before and I'd be surprised if someone doesn't lose their job over this.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

People were far too quick to attack the Xbox One before ever trying to even attempt to understand it.

Ly_the_Fairy

Microsoft definitely failed, but gamers are too.

Just as nobody should take good news from a company at face value, so should people not take bad news at face value.

Consumers have the ability to research the Xbox One BEYOND what Microsoft tells them, yet they didn't. They instead chose to put on their blinders, and tunnel vision Microsoft without getting the full picture of what MS was doing.

I agree Microsoft could have done better at informing the gaming community, but the gaming community didn't even attempt to inform themselves.

pretty sure consumers had the right idea. Microsoft already has a digital storefront, if they want to move to digital sales all they need to do is make buying digital copies more attractive than buying physical copies. Taking the option away has zero benefit for the consumer.

so why dont they do this family sharing and used game sales with their digital storefront? because that would benefit the consumer, and they are only interested in screwing the consumer over.

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]No.  The fault lies directly at MS's feet here.  It's not so much what they tried, it's how they revealed and introduced it.  This blunder is really not so much anything as it is a marketing disaster.  It's not the consumer's fault when they fail to understand something, that is upon the business to explain and make clear, and MS failed in every aspect to do so.  Steam has proven that people are willing to concede and accept such a DRM model if done correctly.  All this going on is simply a case of "too much, too soon", and "failure to communicate".  MS did more damage to their cause simply due to bungled handling.

MirkoS77

Microsoft definitely failed, but gamers are too.

Just as nobody should take good news from a company at face value, so should people not take bad news at face value.

Consumers have the ability to research the Xbox One BEYOND what Microsoft tells them, yet they didn't. They instead chose to put on their blinders, and tunnel vision Microsoft without getting the full picture of what MS was doing.

I agree Microsoft could have done better at informing the gaming community, but the gaming community didn't even attempt to inform themselves.

I understand that people will jump to conclusions but MS allowed them to.  The problem was they didn't give us the full picture from the start.  They were forced to come out and elaborate on their policies later on when the uproar had already reached a peak and the damage had already been done.  It was as if they really didn't have anything concrete at all except that there would be some sort of DRM and mandatory Internet requirement.  They'd subtly leak this out in their reveal and see the reaction, then come out and clarify.  

They showed NO benefit to go along with these new restrictions.  Everyone searched for the good side and saw none, and that's why everyone jumped to conclusions.....because that's all MS gave them.  No assurances that we'd be seeing reduced prices.  No assurances of any type of trading/selling (only vague "we're exploring the possibilities").  No assurances that our purchases would be secure 20 years down the road.  They needed to come out with a set plan, shoving benefits in our faces.  I don't blame gamers one bit.  There are always going to be haters, but had MS done this properly the haters would've been in the vocal minority.

Coming out with such a drastic change without explicit explanation on every single possible element was suicide and they should've known better.  I was an ardent supporter of MS this gen, and as a supporter (and lover) of Steam, I'm open to adopting a similar model for consoles.  But not how they presented it.  It was a PR failure like I've never seen before and I'd be surprised if someone doesn't lose their job over this.

As I said earlier. The gaming community picked up their torches and pitchforks right when DRM was mentioned before ever analyzing the situation.

Gamers didn't care to understand why the 24 hr check-in was put in place (people completely ignore it when you tell them why it was there), and gamers didn't care to consider how an always-online system could have made their games more accessible to them.

When you see the most anti-DRM company in the business (CD Projekt) highlighting Microsoft's E3 press conference, that should be very telling to the gaming populace that Microsoft was not planning to oppress gamers with their DRM.

You can't say with a straight face that all the hate MS got was justified. There was a very small, very sensible group who cared to look for answers, and a very large, rabid, ignorant group who wanted to ride the MS hate train that's been so popular these days.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

Microsoft definitely failed, but gamers are too.

Just as nobody should take good news from a company at face value, so should people not take bad news at face value.

Consumers have the ability to research the Xbox One BEYOND what Microsoft tells them, yet they didn't. They instead chose to put on their blinders, and tunnel vision Microsoft without getting the full picture of what MS was doing.

I agree Microsoft could have done better at informing the gaming community, but the gaming community didn't even attempt to inform themselves.

Ly_the_Fairy

I understand that people will jump to conclusions but MS allowed them to.  The problem was they didn't give us the full picture from the start.  They were forced to come out and elaborate on their policies later on when the uproar had already reached a peak and the damage had already been done.  It was as if they really didn't have anything concrete at all except that there would be some sort of DRM and mandatory Internet requirement.  They'd subtly leak this out in their reveal and see the reaction, then come out and clarify.  

They showed NO benefit to go along with these new restrictions.  Everyone searched for the good side and saw none, and that's why everyone jumped to conclusions.....because that's all MS gave them.  No assurances that we'd be seeing reduced prices.  No assurances of any type of trading/selling (only vague "we're exploring the possibilities").  No assurances that our purchases would be secure 20 years down the road.  They needed to come out with a set plan, shoving benefits in our faces.  I don't blame gamers one bit.  There are always going to be haters, but had MS done this properly the haters would've been in the vocal minority.

Coming out with such a drastic change without explicit explanation on every single possible element was suicide and they should've known better.  I was an ardent supporter of MS this gen, and as a supporter (and lover) of Steam, I'm open to adopting a similar model for consoles.  But not how they presented it.  It was a PR failure like I've never seen before and I'd be surprised if someone doesn't lose their job over this.

As I said earlier. The gaming community picked up their torches and pitchforks right when DRM was mentioned before ever analyzing the situation.

Gamers didn't care to understand why the 24 hr check-in was put in place (people completely ignore it when you tell them why it was there), and gamers didn't care to consider how an always-online system could have made their games more accessible to them.

When you see the most anti-DRM company in the business (CD Projekt) highlighting Microsoft's E3 press conference, that should be very telling to the gaming populace that Microsoft was not planning to oppress gamers with their DRM.

You can't say with a straight face that all the hate MS got was justified. There was a very small, very sensible group who cared to look for answers, and a very large, rabid, ignorant group who wanted to ride the MS hate train that's been so popular these days.

I can easily say with a very straight face that all the hate MS got was justified, and not necessarily because of their policies but more so with how they were shown.  People shouldn't HAVE to look for answers, they should be there already laid bare from the start.  They weren't, and that's entirely on Microsoft.

Yeah, I trust M$ will try to SCREW the consumers in the NEAR FUTURE! :roll:

How can you trust Sony after the crappy PS3 launch, racist marketing, them arrogantly telling you to get two jobs if you can't afford a PS3 for 599 usd, PSN going down for a month and releasing a patch that bricked consoles?

How can you trust Nintendo after three generations of bad third party support and their monopolization attempt during the NES days?

I get the consoles I want for the games I want, that's all Im concerned about. If I don't find something worth the cash then I don't buy it. I don't trust or care any more about these corporations than they do for me and I find it hilarious that you all don't seem to realize that they're all very flawed

nooooooo.......fap it..

With my life. ShoulderOfOrion

Yup, I trust them to do their very best to make the consumer part with as much cash as possible in everything they do. It makes them predictable.

window 7 sucks ....... nuff saidhippiesanta

No

Meh.

window 7 sucks ....... nuff saidhippiesanta

do you trust any company?

lostrib

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

do you trust any company?

AzatiS

do you trust any company?

lostrib

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

do you trust any company?

AzatiS

I trust them as much as I would trust any other large billion dollar corporation.

In other words not that much.

heretrix

[QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"]With my life. heeweesRus

Come home baby

Okay a lot of people misunderstood... I never said that MS is the devil and Sony the princess. I'm a "cow" to some degree and still I know what Sony represents. All these multibillion corporation all they care about is profit and what's the best way to milk consumers... such is the capitalistic world we're living in where anything is justified.

Also WilliamRLBaker keep in mind that we're talking about gaming companies over here, I know that banks are literally stealing and killing people but it's a gaming forum. Were you expecting me to open a topic about JP Morgan or Barclays? My point is that MS might be one of the worst in the industry when it comes to lying and delivering anti-consumer policies.

They changed now because they were forced not because they were enlightened, so my question is... after knowing Microsoft's history are you still going to trust them by buying Xbox One? For some reason I still believe that after a year or two they'll bring another surprise or might even go back to DRM claiming something like "Market is ready now".

How can you trust Sony after the crappy PS3 launch, racist marketing, them arrogantly telling you to get two jobs if you can't afford a PS3 for 599 usd, PSN going down for a month and releasing a patch that bricked consoles?

How can you trust Nintendo after three generations of bad third party support and their monopolization attempt during the NES days?

I get the consoles I want for the games I want, that's all Im concerned about. If I don't find something worth the cash then I don't buy it. I don't trust or care any more about these corporations than they do for me and I find it hilarious that you all don't seem to realize that they're all very flawed

vashkey

That was what seven years ago? Things have changed. Sony appears to have learned their lessons from the PS3 days, as is evidenced by everything they've said or done since February. The higher ups seem like good peeps, which is very important. They at the very least know how to appear to be genuine. They've earned back my trust and respect.

Certainly over Microsoft, which just now had it revealed that they were intentionally misleading us with dishonest bull**** regarding the family sharing plan. Had they gone through with that plan there would've been a s***storm of epic proportions dwarfing anything that had come before it. And while Microsoft may have 180'd in the right direction with their decision to scrap that and drop all their crappy DRM, I now can't take their word for anything. Their word is worthless. They've essentially lied to my face. And now they're going to try to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened.

They changed now because they were forced not because they were enlightened.

V3rciS

It doesn't really matter. They RESPONDED. People said the choice they made was bad, Sony capitalized on it (bravo) and embarrassed the hell out of them at E3, and they changed it because of that.

I really don't give a shit as to why, the fact that they did shows they are listening (mostly. I really don't get the Kinect obsession). As for them switching back later on, that would be incredibly stupid UNLESS, they have a really compelling reason for doing so. MS, contrary to SW belief is not filled with stupid people, it's just at times they can get their head stuck up their asses due to ego(like most smart people) and make weird decsions.

All said, I still don't want a X1.

WOW...distinct lack of perspective in this thread.

Trust is an emotion reserved for people I like and love. Anybody that places trust in an inanimate object or business deserves to get stung IMO.

WOW...distinct lack of perspective in this thread.

Trust is an emotion reserved for people I like and love. Anybody that places trust in an inanimate object or business deserves to get stung IMO.

always_explicit

It would be wiser and more productive if you worried more about trusting you government and less about a private company in the VG biz :o just sayin. :P

MS the charge & control everything they can get away with on their consoles. 

No, thanks. Sony only charges for things after all long thought and due diligence and/or MS puts something into place that makes them a lot of money that they use against Sony. 

MS the charge & control everything they can get away with on their consoles. 

No, thanks. Sony only charges for things after all long thought and due diligence and/or MS puts something into place that makes them a lot of money that they use against Sony. 

clr84651

So they announced all these wonderful things going all out and acting proud of it at their press conference. Well the internet erupted into a volcano of hatred for weeks on end constantly, everywhere and what did Microsoft do? They said "Deal with it" they explained why the "Concept of ownership is morphing" by telling us how we should share our products we buy and own with Microsoft and do what they say with them, they spent weeks with interviews and conferences explaining why all this stuff is really ok and its for our own good and told us why we should just roll over and accept it. Lets face it, this has been going on for months before the E3 event unveiled all of their plans.

So after all of that they decided to reverse the policies they were slapping us with just a few days ago and expecting to not only put up with them, but pay for them as well.

Will I buy an Xbox One now that Microsoft has changed the policies that I so justifiably hated? No, I will not. Not even if they reduce the price and throw in a free game I will not buy an Xbox One.

"OHHHH BUT WHY????!!!!! They change what you hated you should like them now!" No, I should not like them now. They flip flopped over night, that does not suddenly make everything ok.

Despite changing their policies Microsoft is still the exact same company it was 2 days ago which we all hated and despised. Sure they changed policies but its still the same company. Do you honestly think the entire company suddenly had a epiphany and decided now it loves the consumers? Has our best interest at heart? And wants to become all of our best friends and show us how loved and adored we are as their customers? Wrong! Its the same company. They did not change their minds over night, and there is nothing to say they wont change it right back again at the drop of a hat.

Microsoft did not make these changes for the good of the consumer. They did not change anything to please its customers. They did not change anything to bring more value to us. They did not change anything in order to make us feel valuable. And they did not change anything to say they are sorry. They did however change things for the sake of profit and nothing else. They changed not because they wanted to, but because they were forced to.

Gargus

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"][QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

Prepared to do what? Bring a potentially better service to a fanbase consisting of gamers they know have a consistent internet connection?

Ly_the_Fairy

Yep, people saw "DRM" and immediatly grabbed their torches and pitchforks without realizing that the argument should never be about DRM.

DRM is not inherently evil as everyone seems to think it is. Every developer has a right to protect his/her investment. 

The argument should be about accessibility. Steam is DRM, and you know what? The average consumer on Steam spends more money, and plays more games than the average console user despite having LESS FREEDOM to do with their purchases as they want.

People were far too quick to attack the Xbox One before ever trying to even attempt to understand it.

Perfectly said.

[QUOTE="vashkey"]

How can you trust Sony after the crappy PS3 launch, racist marketing, them arrogantly telling you to get two jobs if you can't afford a PS3 for 599 usd, PSN going down for a month and releasing a patch that bricked consoles?

How can you trust Nintendo after three generations of bad third party support and their monopolization attempt during the NES days?

I get the consoles I want for the games I want, that's all Im concerned about. If I don't find something worth the cash then I don't buy it. I don't trust or care any more about these corporations than they do for me and I find it hilarious that you all don't seem to realize that they're all very flawed

McStrongfast

That was what seven years ago? Things have changed. Sony appears to have learned their lessons from the PS3 days, as is evidenced by everything they've said or done since February. The higher ups seem like good peeps, which is very important. They at the very least know how to appear to be genuine. They've earned back my trust and respect.

Certainly over Microsoft, which just now had it revealed that they were intentionally misleading us with dishonest bull**** regarding the family sharing plan. Had they gone through with that plan there would've been a s***storm of epic proportions dwarfing anything that had come before it. And while Microsoft may have 180'd in the right direction with their decision to scrap that and drop all their crappy DRM, I now can't take their word for anything. Their word is worthless. They've essentially lied to my face. And now they're going to try to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened.

I don't trust MS any more or less than I trust Sony. Sony 2005: "Online play is an intrigal part of gaming, and will always be free of charge."

No. Not likely to happen for another gen.

They'll have to follow more of Sony's lead for the next gen until I consider their products for purchase. I genuinely believe they'll do another 180 (and thus a full 360) and change again after a year or two. Regardless of the trust issue, for the last 2 consecutive generations they have shown they're incapable of supporting their console with software a few years after release.

As a consumer I want the best value for my money, they do not display the best value for the money to me.

I don't trust MS any more or less than I trust Sony. Sony 2005: "Online play is an intrigal part of gaming, and will always be free of charge."

StormyJoe

Was hardly unprotected, and the PS2 was a decade ago, but whatever, most companies f*** up eventually and tend to act the same way when they do, fair enough if you want to treat them all the same.

At this point in time, I hardly think they are though.

I'll opt for putting my chips in with the guys who appear genuine and have set off in the right direction, over the people who've been blatantly dishonest, manipulative and with an interest in going the wrong way. Makes sense to me.