EA: No Modding Tools With Battlefield 3

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DarkLink77

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#251 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

So much for PC being the primary platform.

Wasdie

Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...

No mod tools, Wasdie. :(
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psn8214

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#252 psn8214
Member since 2009 • 14930 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

So much for PC being the primary platform.

DarkLink77

Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...

No mod tools, Wasdie. :(

I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.

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harshv82

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#253 harshv82
Member since 2008 • 1120 Posts
[QUOTE="psn8214"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...

No mod tools, Wasdie. :(

I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.

Even if it wasn't complex, Why would I (as a manager) give out something which my team has spent hours on developing it? If I make a product, wouldn't I be the one to quote it's price. That's exactly what EA is saying. Not saying it's the right way to go about it but a buisness strategy. They don't want the cutting edge tools/tech be readily available in market.
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psn8214

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#254 psn8214
Member since 2009 • 14930 Posts

They don't want the cutting edge tools/tech be readily available in market. harshv82

Exactly. It's their edge over competing products.

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Wasdie

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#255 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

So much for PC being the primary platform.

DarkLink77

Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...

No mod tools, Wasdie. :(

That doesn't mean the game wasn't developed for the PC. The Witcher didn't have mod tools, Diablo 2 didn't have mod tools, in fact most games don't have mod tools when they are released.

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AdrianWerner

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#256 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

The Witcher didn't have mod tools

Wasdie

Ermm..what?

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DarkLink77

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#257 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...

psn8214

No mod tools, Wasdie. :(

I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.

That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.
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Kinthalis

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#258 Kinthalis
Member since 2002 • 5503 Posts

Exactly, ultimatley mods cannot be stopped.

GTA Iv did nto have mod tools, and yet eveyrone is familiar with the mods for that game.

There WILL be mods, they will just take longer to come out, and be a little more limited than if we had a toolset.

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DarkLink77

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#259 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...

Wasdie

No mod tools, Wasdie. :(

That doesn't mean the game wasn't developed for the PC. The Witcher didn't have mod tools, Diablo 2 didn't have mod tools, in fact most games don't have mod tools when they are released.

Yeah, but this ain't Diablo, Wasdie.
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psn8214

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#260 psn8214
Member since 2009 • 14930 Posts

That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.DarkLink77

That's true, but I mean really, have you seen Frostbite 2? I cannot blame them for wanting to keep that in-house. There's plenty of other great games coming that will have extensive mod support, like Red Orchestra 2.

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Wasdie

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#262 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

The Witcher didn't have mod tools

AdrianWerner

Ermm..what?

I forgot the 2. Or at least I don't think it has mod tools. It might. I guess I care so little about modding my games I don't really follow.

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DarkLink77

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#263 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.psn8214

That's true, but I mean really, have you seen Frostbite 2? I cannot blame them for wanting to keep that in-house. There's plenty of other great games coming that will have extensive mod support, like Red Orchestra 2.

True. It's an incredible engine. It's just weird. They talk about how it's primarily a PC game, and then they're like, "No mod tools, sorry., because it's too complex." That's a stupid excuse no matter how you spin it.
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Wasdie

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#264 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="psn8214"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] No mod tools, Wasdie. :(DarkLink77

I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.

That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.

You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?

The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.

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AdrianWerner

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#265 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

The Witcher didn't have mod tools

Wasdie

Ermm..what?

I forgot the 2. Or at least I don't think it has mod tools. It might. I guess I care so little about modding my games I don't really follow.

Yeah, the first one had actualy quite few nice mods released. Enough that I hope CDP will release the tools in the future. THey are considering it, but can't promise anything :(

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#266 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="psn8214"]

I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.

Wasdie

That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.

You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?

The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.

I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.
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ExplosiveChorro

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#267 ExplosiveChorro
Member since 2008 • 1074 Posts

sigh.... i knew it, consolized confirmed

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Wasdie

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#268 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]Ermm..what?

AdrianWerner

I forgot the 2. Or at least I don't think it has mod tools. It might. I guess I care so little about modding my games I don't really follow.

Yeah, the first one had actualy quite few nice mods released. Enough that I hope CDP will release the tools in the future. THey are considering it, but can't promise anything :(

We also keep assuming that there will never be mod tools. I know for a face that DICE says they want them to happen, they just are going to use the engine for internal use for awhile.

Look at Crysis 2. That game got mod tools after awhile. They didn't need to give us mod tools, they could have just waited for the SDK launch later this summer, but they gave us mod tools. So who knows.

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Wasdie

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#269 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.DarkLink77

You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?

The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.

I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.

Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.

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DarkLink77

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#270 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?

The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.

Wasdie

I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.

Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.

Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.
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#271 organic_machine
Member since 2004 • 10143 Posts
[QUOTE="organic_machine"]

No mod tools, no purchase from me. :)

ducati101
God I hope that's sarcasm!

Nope! :) It's not. I hated BF2 and regretted my purchase until I found out about some of the killer mods for that game. I was on the fence about BF3, and this just ended any anticipation I theoretically might have had. Although I must admit, based on all the SP footage, they've got the pacing down perfectly!
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#272 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60812 Posts
[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.DarkLink77

Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.

Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.

But I *do* care!
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Wasdie

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#273 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.DarkLink77

Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.

Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.

That's not a good reason. They will need to upgrade after BF3 hits the market, simple as that. Until now their competition hasn't been that stiff. BC2 looked great, but CoD still looked better on the consoles (less jaggied, ran better, didn't look all that much different) but now BF3 looks much better and is much less jagged, still doesn't run at the 60fps, but overall it looks far better.

Already the pressure is on Activision to upgrade their engine. They have talked about larger environments and more destruction in their multiplayer because of the pressure BF3 is putting on it.

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DarkLink77

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#274 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.

Wasdie

Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.

That's not a good reason. They will need to upgrade after BF3 hits the market, simple as that. Until now their competition hasn't been that stiff. BC2 looked great, but CoD still looked better on the consoles (less jaggied, ran better, didn't look all that much different) but now BF3 looks much better and is much less jagged, still doesn't run at the 60fps, but overall it looks far better.

Already the pressure is on Activision to upgrade their engine. They have talked about larger environments and more destruction in their multiplayer because of the pressure BF3 is putting on it.

It's all marketing BS. If they really cared, they wouldn't still be using id Tech 3.
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KalDurenik

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#275 KalDurenik
Member since 2004 • 3736 Posts
Not cool. Also it dont mater if the modding tools are "super advanced". People that want to mod will learn and do it. All it do if its advanced is remove the "casual" person from it. And no i dont think it super advanced. So far i have not seen any tool released that hve been to hard to learn or use. In the end its all about "We want to make money releasing map packs".
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Mystic-G

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#276 Mystic-G
Member since 2006 • 6462 Posts

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"]Let's be honest with ourselves here. They scrapped mod tools so they can force PC to buy the DLC packs. The only one to blame here is clearly EA, because we all know who pulled those kind of strings. Wasdie

Seems the most logical to me...

I don't know where this thread took the wrong turn when I saw stuff like :

- Modding is costing millions of dollars and is killing developers

- DLC is saving gaming

- Wanting user made content is entitlement

- Modders are slaving against their own free will to give free content to entitled spoiled gamers...

BF fanboys are taking it too far.

Modding tools do cost a lot of money and no longer justify the small amount of revenue they bring in. Crying that you aren't getting mod tools and saying you won't buy the game because of that is entitlement. You aren't entitled to free content. There is nothing written anywhere that says a developer has to release mod tools and games sell fine without them. Obviously it's something we all wouldn't have, but people base their purchase of a game solely if they can get free content that other platforms cannot. That's entitlement.

I don't know where you got that last point either. If a modder wants to waste his/her time over some over-entitled group of gamers, let them.

As a hardcore BF lover, I gotta admit... you're defending this really hard. Maybe I should bring up what DICE said about modding when BC2 came out to refresh your memory.

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Wasdie

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#277 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

As a hardcore BF lover, I gotta admit... you're defending this really hard. Maybe I should bring up what DICE said about modding when BC2 came out to refresh your memory.

Mystic-G

I don't care what they said for BC2. Between my 360 verison and my PC version I have over 100 hours of online in BC2. I don't care at all about mods for Battlefield games.

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Mystic-G

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#278 Mystic-G
Member since 2006 • 6462 Posts

Here's a older quote DICE said before the release of Bad Company 2

DICE speaking on BC2 and the future iterations of Battlefield -

"This version of Frostbite just really doesn't support (modding)," Van Dyke explains. "The way our tools are setup for Frostbite currently - this isn't the plan for the future - it's all within a network structure, so we have servers, a network farm, hard drives all over the place, caching systems. For the development team it's not even a realistic thing to try to pretend we could put out. So we just bit the bullet and were honest and were like, 'This is not something we can do with this game.'"


As you can clearly see, the Producer clearly insinuated that later games after BC2 would support modding. There's no excuse here.

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The_Capitalist

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#279 The_Capitalist
Member since 2004 • 10838 Posts

This is a minus in my book, but honestly, how many BF2 mods really became popular? Project Reality is the only mod that I can think of that really gained a significant following.

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#280 razgriz_101
Member since 2007 • 16875 Posts

Here's a older quote DICE said before the release of Bad Company 2

DICE speaking on BC2 and the future iterations of Battlefield -

"This version of Frostbite just really doesn't support (modding)," Van Dyke explains. "The way our tools are setup for Frostbite currently - this isn't the plan for the future - it's all within a network structure, so we have servers, a network farm, hard drives all over the place, caching systems. For the development team it's not even a realistic thing to try to pretend we could put out. So we just bit the bullet and were honest and were like, 'This is not something we can do with this game.'"


As you can clearly see, the Producer clearly insinuated that later games after BC2 would support modding. There's no excuse here.

Mystic-G

It really depends on how certain parts of the engine have changed itself, they might be getting the game shipped then SDK's further down the line or this iteration of Frostbite havent moved on as much as we thought to begin with in the under the hood and tools sense.

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Mystic-G

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#281 Mystic-G
Member since 2006 • 6462 Posts

This is a minus in my book, but honestly, how many BF2 mods really became popular? Project Reality is the only mod that I can think of that really gained a significant following.

The_Capitalist
There were a lot of mods that were played significantly. Project Reality is just the only one that managed to stick around for a very long period of time. But just cause some mods aren't played for 6 years doesn't mean it's not worth having mod tools for.
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#282 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="The_Capitalist"]

This is a minus in my book, but honestly, how many BF2 mods really became popular? Project Reality is the only mod that I can think of that really gained a significant following.

Mystic-G

There were a lot of mods that were played significantly. Project Reality is just the only one that managed to stick around for a very long period of time. But just cause some mods aren't played for 6 years doesn't mean it's not worth having mod tools for.

As it was brought up in the PC board, the server files are not public like BF2. So any mods created wouldn't be able to be played anyways.

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greendayR0cks

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#283 greendayR0cks
Member since 2010 • 238 Posts
People that are complaining about "No Modding Tools" on Battlefield are quite laughable. It's just a game, people.
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spotofun

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#284 spotofun
Member since 2009 • 156 Posts

*tags thread with all of Wasdie's elitism quotes for the apocalyptic day that either PSN or PC users have to pay for access to online mulitplayer*

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#285 John_Read
Member since 2009 • 1214 Posts

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Even if the tools are hard to use there's nothing stopping them from releasing them anyway. Running on in-house engine doesn't stop many devs from releasing their tools to public, even if they're hard to use.

There's no reason for no mod support for BF3 besides devs' own laziness and/or need to sell more DLC. Sure, they don't have any obligation to do otherwise, but let's not make up excuses that make their actions look better than what they are. Especially since DICE didn; even release any tools for Mirror's Edge, which was running on UE3.0.

Wasdie

You never publish your internal tools. That's a basic business practice. "Oh here Activision, we made this kick ass engine, you guys can have it. Please don't use it to build up a separate engine with similar features!"

Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with this. You have no idea how software development works on any level if you think this is them just being lazy. Mod tools require a separate program with a lot of control on exactly what the people can do with their engine. You don't make your engine open source, that's just stupid. Once the mod tools are out, you need support, and documentation, and you must update them as the engine progresses. Even if it is minimal support, it still takes time away from the development team for other things.

yeah every developers should stop supporting PC games with Mod tools i hope Skyrim mod tools are canceled and new source and unreal engine should not support mods
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Baranga

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#286 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

Hopefully the following will explain everything. It's about FB 1.5, but 2.0 works a lot like it. They improved the pipeline, but everything else is pretty much the same.

You folks have asked about it, so here's a piece on the modtools situation for BC2 PC.

Frostbite 1.5 consists of these components:


The game runtime

The editor runtime
The content processing runtime (aka "the pipeline")
and some plugins for Maya
The game runtime is distributed outside of EA, but the editor + pipeline + Maya plugins are not.

So let's take a look at some things that would need to be solved before we'd be ready to distribute the editor + pipeline.



Pipeline operation


Let's say that you tell the pipeline to build level MP_003.


MP_003 is represented by an XML file, which references a bunch of other files. These in turn reference other files. If you follow this graph of references, you will find the level layout, heightmap, characters, weapons, vehicles, and all the content that you can see in-game. (The in-game HUD and related stuff might also be in the graph.)


When the pipeline is about to build MP_003, it will first perform a consistency check on all content, and yell if any file that is referenced by any other is not present.


If all files are present, the pipeline will attempt to convert all files referenced by MP_003. It uses the file system journal to determine which files have changed on-disk. Also, and any files that have already been converted have info on which files depend on it (so it has info like: "if file X changes, then files Y,Z,W will also need to be rebuilt").


Building all content for BC2 from scratch takes something like 48-72 hours on a normal workstation. Half that time is spent building common content (such as character animations), half builds level-specific content.


In addition, there's a caching mechanism: if the pipeline wants to build a specific bit of content, it will first check if the pre-built content is already available on a cache server and take the result directly from the cache server instead. The pipeline can also populate the cache if it builds something new.


Pipeline issues


So how does this work in practice? It's not ideal, but it's good enough for us to ship games on it.


The pipeline is a bit overzealous with regards to rebuilding assets – sometimes it rebuilds stuff that it shouldn't need to.


The pipeline will normally crash about 2-3 times during a full rebuild.


You need to have Maya 8.5 (32-bit version) installed in order to convert any meshes.


Any content in the cache expires after 3 weeks. After 3 weeks have passed, that content will need to be rebuilt and re-uploaded by a machine running the pipeline. The effect that this has on day-to-day development is minimized by having one or two machines dedicated to running the pipeline every time any content change is done. By running the pipeline, those machines will populate the cache, thereby speeding up the build process for everyone else. (The output form those content build steps is discarded.)


In short: the pipeline + cache setup works better the more people are using it simultaneously.


If there are content errors, you need to know a lot about the internals of the game engine to figure out what's wrong.


Finally, in its current form, the pipeline + editor expects some specific IT infrastructure in place (most notably the cache server and a Perforce server).

If it's not there then the pipeline + editor will behave strangely.
The first time I tried, it took me about one week to get the full editor + pipeline setup to work properly outside of the DICE office. And that was when I had the option to call any of the other developers to ask for help.

… does this sound bad to you?


Truth be told, this is approximately where the industry average is at for game studios' internal game engines. One of FB 1.5′s weaknesses is specifically that its content processing is flaky, and the flakiness gets more problematic as the amount of content goes up. FB 2.0 is much improved in this regard, but FB 1.5 is what we're using for BC2 and that's what relevant in the current discussion (or monologue if you prefer).


Content

Both the pipeline and the editor takes in all content in its raw, original form. Anyone who is to build any content needs the full 80GB of raw data on their machine. We are not comfortable giving out all our animations, meshes etc in raw form.


We are comfortable giving out the processed data – after all, that's what on the game disc – but that data does not plug into the editor/pipeline at all.


Licenses

The game, editor and pipeline all use commercial middleware. It is developed by Havok and several other companies.

The licensing agreement for the middleware allows us to use that code in specific products, on specific platforms.
If we want to release editor + pipeline, we need to license the middleware specifically for this. How much would that be? Perhaps $1M-$3M. I'm guessing wildly here.


Stripping out that middleware would seriously hamper the functionality especially of the pipeline. We use Havok Physics, for instance. Without Havok Physics, the pipeline wouldn't be able to convert any of the physics meshes. We also use Granny. Without Granny, the pipeline will not be able to convert any of the character animations. Etc.

Re-implementing the necessary functionality of the middleware ourselves ("let's make our own physics engine / let's plug in an open-source physics engine") would take literally man-years. Licensing is cheaper in pure $ cost and faster (it works now instead of by 2012).

The pipeline also uses some code that is under GPL. Given that we do not want to release the full source code for the editor + pipeline, we would need to replace the GPLed code with other implementations.


The GPLed code is less of a problem than the proprietary middleware.


Editor

The editor itself is reasonably stable and well-behaving. It is far from obvious how to set up the game logic for a level, but that is easily covered by releasing some example levels which contain the logic setup for the common gamemodes.


Test-running levels


First the level needs to be successfully processed by the pipeline. Then you'd want to be able to test it locally. That involves having a listen server around. We don't have a listen server neatly packaged. There's probably a piracy angle here too but I'm not going to discuss that.


Distribution of levels


Getting levels onto the RSPs server machines would likely not be any problem. However there's need for checksumming levels, so that game clients can know whether or not they have the correct version of level X on their machines. There's a whole bunch of other things (mainly UI-related) which will need cleaning up as well. Not difficult to do, just takes time and I'm listing it for the sake of completeness.


Also, there are some complications wrt when we release patches that affect the base game's content. Whenever we release a patch, all existing levels will need to be rebuilt with a new set of original data. This is because some level-common data is stored inside of the level archives. I'm not sure at the time of writing, but that probably means that the only manageable way for us would be to invalidate any user-made levels when we release a patch of that form.

Then creators of any user-generated levels would be required to run their levels again through the pipeline with the new base content supplied.

So how about just a map editor?


If it doesn't plug into the ecosystem above, then getting it to work involves some serious wrangling. Either it is a light-weight replacement for our existing editor – in which case all the challenges with the pipeline still remain – or it is a separate mode (think Forge for Halo). Developing an extra mod-layer that is sandwiched into the game would easily take 6-12 months.


Synergy effects between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0


So let's say that we would go through the procedure of making mod tools for FB 1.5. How much of that work would be reusable for FB 2.0?

I don't have any firm figures, but the differences between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0 are pretty large by now. Given this and the fact that a fair bit of the FB 1.5-specific problems (where the devil often is in the details) don't apply to FB 2.0, I'd guess that less than half of the work would port over to FB 2.0.

Conclusion


In conclusion, my recommendation to the rest of DICE is not to develop mod tools for BC2 PC. There are too many hurdles to overcome. That energy is better spent elsewhere, be that on BC2 or other titles.

Baranga

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#287 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Baranga"]

Super long quote...

Baranga

Where did you get that from?

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Baranga

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#288 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

A DICE developer.

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#289 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

A DICE developer.

Baranga

That's only going to fuel the "laziness" excuses by people. Even though we are talking 6-12 months (estimated) of time to make the tools and possibly $3 million of costs, and that was just for the Frostbite 1.5. I'm sure the Frostbite 2.0 is even more complex to try to build the tools.

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#290 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

I assume the tools would have to be made by their top engine programmers, the people that know best what they're dealing with. Which would in turn lead to stagnation of the tech.

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#292 1q3er5
Member since 2003 • 759 Posts
Well i'm sure you've seen what mods can do to a game like GTA4 in the other thread. This is a shame. Desert Combat mod for Battlefield 2 was awesome. Waitin for ARMA III instead of BF3
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#293 psn8214
Member since 2009 • 14930 Posts

Well i'm sure you've seen what mods can do to a game like GTA4 in the other thread. This is a shame. Desert Combat mod for Battlefield 2 was awesome. Waitin for ARMA III instead of BF31q3er5

Get both. I'd imagine a lot of the potential BF3 modders would move to Arma III, especially since the game now has real physics and improved animations lol.

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#294 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...

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#295 deactivated-635601fd996cc
Member since 2009 • 4381 Posts

Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...

ShadowMoses900
No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.
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#296 cobrax55
Member since 2007 • 1364 Posts

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...

ocstew

No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.

oh **** there has yet to be anything to advanced for mod makers to grasp, if developers can use it, somebody among 1000's of modders will figure it out. The idea that its to complicated for Mod teams when people have figured out how to use the Source SDK (which is unbelieavably unituitive) is just a absurd.

and all other Mod tools require middleware as well, theres nothing unique about that.

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#297 deactivated-635601fd996cc
Member since 2009 • 4381 Posts

[QUOTE="ocstew"][QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...

cobrax55

No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.

oh **** there has yet to be anything to advanced for mod makers to grasp, if developers can use it, somebody among 1000's of modders will figure it out. The idea that its to complicated for Mod teams when people have figured out how to use the Source SDK (which is unbelieavably unituitive) is just a absurd.

and all other Mod tools require middleware as well, theres nothing unique about that.

The difference is, that FB2 is designed for server environments and recompiling. Not to mention the completely new systems of GI and Destruction that would need a ton of documentation, that should, frankly be spent on making a new game. DICE aren't in the business of leasing their engine like Crytek or Epic so I can see why they wouldn't bother making simple engine that are suited to a wide variety of genres. More importantly you should read the reasons behind the choice, rather than just thinking BS BS BS.
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#298 1q3er5
Member since 2003 • 759 Posts
[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

If you read this link its got a decent reasoning.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/05/battlefield-3-dev-we-are-not-going-to-make-any-modding-tools/

combine that with what has already been said about how frostbite itself is designed it seems more than plausible, also the hermits whining bout milking should really look back on BC2 getting extra free maps later into its lifespan just around the time vietnam was released which itself was a fairly comprehensive addon and i would say fairly priced.

If the engine isnt really got any suitable way of supporting a dev kit then thats the way the cookie crumbles, the only reason a lot of games get dev kits is usually because they run on middleware engines for example the likes of UE3 and ID tech so the documentation is readily available in most cases.Same goes for bethesda much like infinity ward they run off modified middleware.

If the way the frostbite engine itself has been designed means that they cant really throw a dev kit then so be it, man up get over it its not going to massively affect your end enjoyment of the game mind you some people are just never happy.

Also remember Frostbite 2.0 is essentially running the same core ideals as its predecessors but only much better with support on the PC front aswell as having scalability for consoles and all that, doubt some parts of the code base will have changed that drastically.

Uhh you actually buy that? Just a scam to get people to buy DLC, I hope hermits see right through this. Engine is too complex LOL this is just a modified BFBC2 engine which doesn't hold a candle to EVEN vanilla Crysis and yet its TOO complex to make a dev kit for...ya right...Mark my words on this - Crysis will still look graphically better than BF3 -even more so when you INCLUDE the MODS
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#299 cobrax55
Member since 2007 • 1364 Posts

[QUOTE="cobrax55"]

[QUOTE="ocstew"] No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software. ocstew

oh **** there has yet to be anything to advanced for mod makers to grasp, if developers can use it, somebody among 1000's of modders will figure it out. The idea that its to complicated for Mod teams when people have figured out how to use the Source SDK (which is unbelieavably unituitive) is just a absurd.

and all other Mod tools require middleware as well, theres nothing unique about that.

The difference is, that FB2 is designed for server environments and recompiling. Not to mention the completely new systems of GI and Destruction that would need a ton of documentation, that should, frankly be spent on making a new game. DICE aren't in the business of leasing their engine like Crytek or Epic so I can see why they wouldn't bother making simple engine that are suited to a wide variety of genres. More importantly you should read the reasons behind the choice, rather than just thinking BS BS BS.

I have, and its very obviously complete Billsh*t, for starters, none of Dice's SDK's have ever come with documentation of any kind as far as im aware either (lets be honest, DICE's community support is pretty terrible). Documentation is nice, but can be done without. The idea that an engine is to "difficult" for modders is absurd...They went so far beyond anything Dice did with their previous engine, despite absolutly no support on Dice's part.

And the fact that their not licening their engine is irrelevent.

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#300 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...

ocstew

No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.

Just curios have you ever seen a mod before.... or do you know anyone who has ever made one? If you do ask them to show you sometimes, most mod tools arn't really that hard to grasp the only REALLY hard part is making the tools to begin with, but that's the developers job not ours. I recommend downloading the G Mod for Half Life 2, it's basically one HUGE mod that you can mess around with and trust me it's not that hard.

I've also played plenty of mods for Oblivion and Fallout 3 and the developers for both those games strongly support they're modding community, they even give their mod tools away for FREE with the game when you buy it. And the modding for those 2 games are AMAZING and really add life to the game that the Devs could never dream of. Plus the modding community is very friendly and helpful.