[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
So much for PC being the primary platform.
Wasdie
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
No mod tools, Wasdie. :(This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
So much for PC being the primary platform.
Wasdie
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
No mod tools, Wasdie. :([QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
So much for PC being the primary platform.
DarkLink77
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
No mod tools, Wasdie. :(I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
No mod tools, Wasdie. :(I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.
Even if it wasn't complex, Why would I (as a manager) give out something which my team has spent hours on developing it? If I make a product, wouldn't I be the one to quote it's price. That's exactly what EA is saying. Not saying it's the right way to go about it but a buisness strategy. They don't want the cutting edge tools/tech be readily available in market.[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
So much for PC being the primary platform.
DarkLink77
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
No mod tools, Wasdie. :(That doesn't mean the game wasn't developed for the PC. The Witcher didn't have mod tools, Diablo 2 didn't have mod tools, in fact most games don't have mod tools when they are released.
No mod tools, Wasdie. :([QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
psn8214
I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.
That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.No mod tools, Wasdie. :([QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]
Yeah becuase writing the whole engine in DX10 and using DX11 lighting effects as the core of the engine means it was made for consoles...
Wasdie
That doesn't mean the game wasn't developed for the PC. The Witcher didn't have mod tools, Diablo 2 didn't have mod tools, in fact most games don't have mod tools when they are released.
Yeah, but this ain't Diablo, Wasdie.That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.DarkLink77
That's true, but I mean really, have you seen Frostbite 2? I cannot blame them for wanting to keep that in-house. There's plenty of other great games coming that will have extensive mod support, like Red Orchestra 2.
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.psn8214
That's true, but I mean really, have you seen Frostbite 2? I cannot blame them for wanting to keep that in-house. There's plenty of other great games coming that will have extensive mod support, like Red Orchestra 2.
True. It's an incredible engine. It's just weird. They talk about how it's primarily a PC game, and then they're like, "No mod tools, sorry., because it's too complex." That's a stupid excuse no matter how you spin it.[QUOTE="psn8214"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] No mod tools, Wasdie. :(DarkLink77
I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.
That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?
The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.
Ermm..what?[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]
[QUOTE="Wasdie"]
The Witcher didn't have mod tools
Wasdie
I forgot the 2. Or at least I don't think it has mod tools. It might. I guess I care so little about modding my games I don't really follow.
Yeah, the first one had actualy quite few nice mods released. Enough that I hope CDP will release the tools in the future. THey are considering it, but can't promise anything :(That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="psn8214"]
I'd normally be angry about this, but there's a very good reason they're not releasing mod tools. The engine is exceedingly complex, and it's their major advantage over competition in the market (read: MW3) and they don't want their trade secrets being available for all.
Wasdie
You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?
The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.
I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.[QUOTE="Wasdie"]
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]Ermm..what?
AdrianWerner
I forgot the 2. Or at least I don't think it has mod tools. It might. I guess I care so little about modding my games I don't really follow.
Yeah, the first one had actualy quite few nice mods released. Enough that I hope CDP will release the tools in the future. THey are considering it, but can't promise anything :(We also keep assuming that there will never be mod tools. I know for a face that DICE says they want them to happen, they just are going to use the engine for internal use for awhile.
Look at Crysis 2. That game got mod tools after awhile. They didn't need to give us mod tools, they could have just waited for the SDK launch later this summer, but they gave us mod tools. So who knows.
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] That's kind of a lame excuse, though. I mean, it's not like Activision has a team that can build an engine that could rival Frostbite 2 anyway, and they probably wouldn't build one even if they could.DarkLink77
You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?
The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.
I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.
I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]
You don't think that Activision wouldn't jump on the possiblity of spending a quarter of a fraction of what Dice and EA spent to make the Frostbite engine if they had a chance and it would mean them having just as good of a game engine?
The only reason we haven't seen a new engine with CoD is because they don't need. They keep their margins stupidly high and it keeps selling.
Wasdie
Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.
Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.[QUOTE="organic_machine"]God I hope that's sarcasm!Nope! :) It's not. I hated BF2 and regretted my purchase until I found out about some of the killer mods for that game. I was on the fence about BF3, and this just ended any anticipation I theoretically might have had. Although I must admit, based on all the SP footage, they've got the pacing down perfectly!No mod tools, no purchase from me. :)
ducati101
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.DarkLink77
Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.
Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it. But I *do* care![QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I don't think they have the tech guys to build it, and I don't think they could build one and keep Call of Duty on a yearly release cycle. And I don't think they care since the casuals don't care. So no.DarkLink77
Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.
Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.That's not a good reason. They will need to upgrade after BF3 hits the market, simple as that. Until now their competition hasn't been that stiff. BC2 looked great, but CoD still looked better on the consoles (less jaggied, ran better, didn't look all that much different) but now BF3 looks much better and is much less jagged, still doesn't run at the 60fps, but overall it looks far better.
Already the pressure is on Activision to upgrade their engine. They have talked about larger environments and more destruction in their multiplayer because of the pressure BF3 is putting on it.
Yeah, but they won't. Because their audience doesn't care, and they know it.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]
Trust me when I say they could get the tech guys in a heartbeat. The engine isn't going to be so complex that some smart people couldn't figure it out. Activision has the fat enough wallet to bring in whoever they need.
Wasdie
That's not a good reason. They will need to upgrade after BF3 hits the market, simple as that. Until now their competition hasn't been that stiff. BC2 looked great, but CoD still looked better on the consoles (less jaggied, ran better, didn't look all that much different) but now BF3 looks much better and is much less jagged, still doesn't run at the 60fps, but overall it looks far better.
Already the pressure is on Activision to upgrade their engine. They have talked about larger environments and more destruction in their multiplayer because of the pressure BF3 is putting on it.
It's all marketing BS. If they really cared, they wouldn't still be using id Tech 3.Seems the most logical to me...[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]
[QUOTE="Mystic-G"]Let's be honest with ourselves here. They scrapped mod tools so they can force PC to buy the DLC packs. The only one to blame here is clearly EA, because we all know who pulled those kind of strings. Wasdie
I don't know where this thread took the wrong turn when I saw stuff like :
- Modding is costing millions of dollars and is killing developers
- DLC is saving gaming
- Wanting user made content is entitlement
- Modders are slaving against their own free will to give free content to entitled spoiled gamers...
BF fanboys are taking it too far.
Modding tools do cost a lot of money and no longer justify the small amount of revenue they bring in. Crying that you aren't getting mod tools and saying you won't buy the game because of that is entitlement. You aren't entitled to free content. There is nothing written anywhere that says a developer has to release mod tools and games sell fine without them. Obviously it's something we all wouldn't have, but people base their purchase of a game solely if they can get free content that other platforms cannot. That's entitlement.
I don't know where you got that last point either. If a modder wants to waste his/her time over some over-entitled group of gamers, let them.
As a hardcore BF lover, I gotta admit... you're defending this really hard. Maybe I should bring up what DICE said about modding when BC2 came out to refresh your memory.As a hardcore BF lover, I gotta admit... you're defending this really hard. Maybe I should bring up what DICE said about modding when BC2 came out to refresh your memory.
Mystic-G
I don't care what they said for BC2. Between my 360 verison and my PC version I have over 100 hours of online in BC2. I don't care at all about mods for Battlefield games.
Here's a older quote DICE said before the release of Bad Company 2
DICE speaking on BC2 and the future iterations of Battlefield -
"This version of Frostbite just really doesn't support (modding)," Van Dyke explains. "The way our tools are setup for Frostbite currently - this isn't the plan for the future - it's all within a network structure, so we have servers, a network farm, hard drives all over the place, caching systems. For the development team it's not even a realistic thing to try to pretend we could put out. So we just bit the bullet and were honest and were like, 'This is not something we can do with this game.'"
As you can clearly see, the Producer clearly insinuated that later games after BC2 would support modding. There's no excuse here.
This is a minus in my book, but honestly, how many BF2 mods really became popular? Project Reality is the only mod that I can think of that really gained a significant following.
Here's a older quote DICE said before the release of Bad Company 2
DICE speaking on BC2 and the future iterations of Battlefield -
"This version of Frostbite just really doesn't support (modding)," Van Dyke explains. "The way our tools are setup for Frostbite currently - this isn't the plan for the future - it's all within a network structure, so we have servers, a network farm, hard drives all over the place, caching systems. For the development team it's not even a realistic thing to try to pretend we could put out. So we just bit the bullet and were honest and were like, 'This is not something we can do with this game.'"
As you can clearly see, the Producer clearly insinuated that later games after BC2 would support modding. There's no excuse here.Mystic-G
It really depends on how certain parts of the engine have changed itself, they might be getting the game shipped then SDK's further down the line or this iteration of Frostbite havent moved on as much as we thought to begin with in the under the hood and tools sense.
There were a lot of mods that were played significantly. Project Reality is just the only one that managed to stick around for a very long period of time. But just cause some mods aren't played for 6 years doesn't mean it's not worth having mod tools for.This is a minus in my book, but honestly, how many BF2 mods really became popular? Project Reality is the only mod that I can think of that really gained a significant following.
The_Capitalist
[QUOTE="The_Capitalist"]There were a lot of mods that were played significantly. Project Reality is just the only one that managed to stick around for a very long period of time. But just cause some mods aren't played for 6 years doesn't mean it's not worth having mod tools for.This is a minus in my book, but honestly, how many BF2 mods really became popular? Project Reality is the only mod that I can think of that really gained a significant following.
Mystic-G
As it was brought up in the PC board, the server files are not public like BF2. So any mods created wouldn't be able to be played anyways.
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]
Even if the tools are hard to use there's nothing stopping them from releasing them anyway. Running on in-house engine doesn't stop many devs from releasing their tools to public, even if they're hard to use.
There's no reason for no mod support for BF3 besides devs' own laziness and/or need to sell more DLC. Sure, they don't have any obligation to do otherwise, but let's not make up excuses that make their actions look better than what they are. Especially since DICE didn; even release any tools for Mirror's Edge, which was running on UE3.0.
Wasdie
You never publish your internal tools. That's a basic business practice. "Oh here Activision, we made this kick ass engine, you guys can have it. Please don't use it to build up a separate engine with similar features!"
Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with this. You have no idea how software development works on any level if you think this is them just being lazy. Mod tools require a separate program with a lot of control on exactly what the people can do with their engine. You don't make your engine open source, that's just stupid. Once the mod tools are out, you need support, and documentation, and you must update them as the engine progresses. Even if it is minimal support, it still takes time away from the development team for other things.
yeah every developers should stop supporting PC games with Mod tools i hope Skyrim mod tools are canceled and new source and unreal engine should not support modsHopefully the following will explain everything. It's about FB 1.5, but 2.0 works a lot like it. They improved the pipeline, but everything else is pretty much the same.
You folks have asked about it, so here's a piece on the modtools situation for BC2 PC.
Frostbite 1.5 consists of these components:
The game runtime
The editor runtime
The content processing runtime (aka "the pipeline")
and some plugins for Maya
The game runtime is distributed outside of EA, but the editor + pipeline + Maya plugins are not.
So let's take a look at some things that would need to be solved before we'd be ready to distribute the editor + pipeline.
Pipeline operation
Let's say that you tell the pipeline to build level MP_003.
MP_003 is represented by an XML file, which references a bunch of other files. These in turn reference other files. If you follow this graph of references, you will find the level layout, heightmap, characters, weapons, vehicles, and all the content that you can see in-game. (The in-game HUD and related stuff might also be in the graph.)
When the pipeline is about to build MP_003, it will first perform a consistency check on all content, and yell if any file that is referenced by any other is not present.
If all files are present, the pipeline will attempt to convert all files referenced by MP_003. It uses the file system journal to determine which files have changed on-disk. Also, and any files that have already been converted have info on which files depend on it (so it has info like: "if file X changes, then files Y,Z,W will also need to be rebuilt").
Building all content for BC2 from scratch takes something like 48-72 hours on a normal workstation. Half that time is spent building common content (such as character animations), half builds level-specific content.
In addition, there's a caching mechanism: if the pipeline wants to build a specific bit of content, it will first check if the pre-built content is already available on a cache server and take the result directly from the cache server instead. The pipeline can also populate the cache if it builds something new.
Pipeline issues
So how does this work in practice? It's not ideal, but it's good enough for us to ship games on it.
The pipeline is a bit overzealous with regards to rebuilding assets – sometimes it rebuilds stuff that it shouldn't need to.
The pipeline will normally crash about 2-3 times during a full rebuild.
You need to have Maya 8.5 (32-bit version) installed in order to convert any meshes.
Any content in the cache expires after 3 weeks. After 3 weeks have passed, that content will need to be rebuilt and re-uploaded by a machine running the pipeline. The effect that this has on day-to-day development is minimized by having one or two machines dedicated to running the pipeline every time any content change is done. By running the pipeline, those machines will populate the cache, thereby speeding up the build process for everyone else. (The output form those content build steps is discarded.)
In short: the pipeline + cache setup works better the more people are using it simultaneously.
If there are content errors, you need to know a lot about the internals of the game engine to figure out what's wrong.
Finally, in its current form, the pipeline + editor expects some specific IT infrastructure in place (most notably the cache server and a Perforce server).
If it's not there then the pipeline + editor will behave strangely.
The first time I tried, it took me about one week to get the full editor + pipeline setup to work properly outside of the DICE office. And that was when I had the option to call any of the other developers to ask for help.
… does this sound bad to you?
Truth be told, this is approximately where the industry average is at for game studios' internal game engines. One of FB 1.5′s weaknesses is specifically that its content processing is flaky, and the flakiness gets more problematic as the amount of content goes up. FB 2.0 is much improved in this regard, but FB 1.5 is what we're using for BC2 and that's what relevant in the current discussion (or monologue if you prefer).
Content
Both the pipeline and the editor takes in all content in its raw, original form. Anyone who is to build any content needs the full 80GB of raw data on their machine. We are not comfortable giving out all our animations, meshes etc in raw form.
We are comfortable giving out the processed data – after all, that's what on the game disc – but that data does not plug into the editor/pipeline at all.
Licenses
The game, editor and pipeline all use commercial middleware. It is developed by Havok and several other companies.
The licensing agreement for the middleware allows us to use that code in specific products, on specific platforms.
If we want to release editor + pipeline, we need to license the middleware specifically for this. How much would that be? Perhaps $1M-$3M. I'm guessing wildly here.
Stripping out that middleware would seriously hamper the functionality especially of the pipeline. We use Havok Physics, for instance. Without Havok Physics, the pipeline wouldn't be able to convert any of the physics meshes. We also use Granny. Without Granny, the pipeline will not be able to convert any of the character animations. Etc.
Re-implementing the necessary functionality of the middleware ourselves ("let's make our own physics engine / let's plug in an open-source physics engine") would take literally man-years. Licensing is cheaper in pure $ cost and faster (it works now instead of by 2012).
The pipeline also uses some code that is under GPL. Given that we do not want to release the full source code for the editor + pipeline, we would need to replace the GPLed code with other implementations.
The GPLed code is less of a problem than the proprietary middleware.
Editor
The editor itself is reasonably stable and well-behaving. It is far from obvious how to set up the game logic for a level, but that is easily covered by releasing some example levels which contain the logic setup for the common gamemodes.
Test-running levels
First the level needs to be successfully processed by the pipeline. Then you'd want to be able to test it locally. That involves having a listen server around. We don't have a listen server neatly packaged. There's probably a piracy angle here too but I'm not going to discuss that.
Distribution of levels
Getting levels onto the RSPs server machines would likely not be any problem. However there's need for checksumming levels, so that game clients can know whether or not they have the correct version of level X on their machines. There's a whole bunch of other things (mainly UI-related) which will need cleaning up as well. Not difficult to do, just takes time and I'm listing it for the sake of completeness.
Also, there are some complications wrt when we release patches that affect the base game's content. Whenever we release a patch, all existing levels will need to be rebuilt with a new set of original data. This is because some level-common data is stored inside of the level archives. I'm not sure at the time of writing, but that probably means that the only manageable way for us would be to invalidate any user-made levels when we release a patch of that form.
Then creators of any user-generated levels would be required to run their levels again through the pipeline with the new base content supplied.
So how about just a map editor?
If it doesn't plug into the ecosystem above, then getting it to work involves some serious wrangling. Either it is a light-weight replacement for our existing editor – in which case all the challenges with the pipeline still remain – or it is a separate mode (think Forge for Halo). Developing an extra mod-layer that is sandwiched into the game would easily take 6-12 months.
Synergy effects between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0
So let's say that we would go through the procedure of making mod tools for FB 1.5. How much of that work would be reusable for FB 2.0?
I don't have any firm figures, but the differences between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0 are pretty large by now. Given this and the fact that a fair bit of the FB 1.5-specific problems (where the devil often is in the details) don't apply to FB 2.0, I'd guess that less than half of the work would port over to FB 2.0.
Conclusion
In conclusion, my recommendation to the rest of DICE is not to develop mod tools for BC2 PC. There are too many hurdles to overcome. That energy is better spent elsewhere, be that on BC2 or other titles.Baranga
A DICE developer.
Baranga
That's only going to fuel the "laziness" excuses by people. Even though we are talking 6-12 months (estimated) of time to make the tools and possibly $3 million of costs, and that was just for the Frostbite 1.5. I'm sure the Frostbite 2.0 is even more complex to try to build the tools.
Well i'm sure you've seen what mods can do to a game like GTA4 in the other thread. This is a shame. Desert Combat mod for Battlefield 2 was awesome. Waitin for ARMA III instead of BF31q3er5
Get both. I'd imagine a lot of the potential BF3 modders would move to Arma III, especially since the game now has real physics and improved animations lol.
Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...
No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...
ShadowMoses900
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...
ocstew
oh **** there has yet to be anything to advanced for mod makers to grasp, if developers can use it, somebody among 1000's of modders will figure it out. The idea that its to complicated for Mod teams when people have figured out how to use the Source SDK (which is unbelieavably unituitive) is just a absurd.
and all other Mod tools require middleware as well, theres nothing unique about that.
No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.[QUOTE="ocstew"][QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]
Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...
cobrax55
oh **** there has yet to be anything to advanced for mod makers to grasp, if developers can use it, somebody among 1000's of modders will figure it out. The idea that its to complicated for Mod teams when people have figured out how to use the Source SDK (which is unbelieavably unituitive) is just a absurd.
and all other Mod tools require middleware as well, theres nothing unique about that.
The difference is, that FB2 is designed for server environments and recompiling. Not to mention the completely new systems of GI and Destruction that would need a ton of documentation, that should, frankly be spent on making a new game. DICE aren't in the business of leasing their engine like Crytek or Epic so I can see why they wouldn't bother making simple engine that are suited to a wide variety of genres. More importantly you should read the reasons behind the choice, rather than just thinking BS BS BS.If you read this link its got a decent reasoning.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/05/battlefield-3-dev-we-are-not-going-to-make-any-modding-tools/
combine that with what has already been said about how frostbite itself is designed it seems more than plausible, also the hermits whining bout milking should really look back on BC2 getting extra free maps later into its lifespan just around the time vietnam was released which itself was a fairly comprehensive addon and i would say fairly priced.
If the engine isnt really got any suitable way of supporting a dev kit then thats the way the cookie crumbles, the only reason a lot of games get dev kits is usually because they run on middleware engines for example the likes of UE3 and ID tech so the documentation is readily available in most cases.Same goes for bethesda much like infinity ward they run off modified middleware.
If the way the frostbite engine itself has been designed means that they cant really throw a dev kit then so be it, man up get over it its not going to massively affect your end enjoyment of the game mind you some people are just never happy.
Also remember Frostbite 2.0 is essentially running the same core ideals as its predecessors but only much better with support on the PC front aswell as having scalability for consoles and all that, doubt some parts of the code base will have changed that drastically.
Uhh you actually buy that? Just a scam to get people to buy DLC, I hope hermits see right through this. Engine is too complex LOL this is just a modified BFBC2 engine which doesn't hold a candle to EVEN vanilla Crysis and yet its TOO complex to make a dev kit for...ya right...Mark my words on this - Crysis will still look graphically better than BF3 -even more so when you INCLUDE the MODS[QUOTE="cobrax55"][QUOTE="ocstew"] No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software. ocstew
oh **** there has yet to be anything to advanced for mod makers to grasp, if developers can use it, somebody among 1000's of modders will figure it out. The idea that its to complicated for Mod teams when people have figured out how to use the Source SDK (which is unbelieavably unituitive) is just a absurd.
and all other Mod tools require middleware as well, theres nothing unique about that.
The difference is, that FB2 is designed for server environments and recompiling. Not to mention the completely new systems of GI and Destruction that would need a ton of documentation, that should, frankly be spent on making a new game. DICE aren't in the business of leasing their engine like Crytek or Epic so I can see why they wouldn't bother making simple engine that are suited to a wide variety of genres. More importantly you should read the reasons behind the choice, rather than just thinking BS BS BS.I have, and its very obviously complete Billsh*t, for starters, none of Dice's SDK's have ever come with documentation of any kind as far as im aware either (lets be honest, DICE's community support is pretty terrible). Documentation is nice, but can be done without. The idea that an engine is to "difficult" for modders is absurd...They went so far beyond anything Dice did with their previous engine, despite absolutly no support on Dice's part.
And the fact that their not licening their engine is irrelevent.
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]No it isn't. The engine is too complex for casual modders (the majority) and perhaps even dedicated mod teams. It requires tons of engine know how and thousands of dollars of software.Well that sure is a cheap shot to the PC gaming community. It will still be better than MW3 though...
ocstew
Just curios have you ever seen a mod before.... or do you know anyone who has ever made one? If you do ask them to show you sometimes, most mod tools arn't really that hard to grasp the only REALLY hard part is making the tools to begin with, but that's the developers job not ours. I recommend downloading the G Mod for Half Life 2, it's basically one HUGE mod that you can mess around with and trust me it's not that hard.
I've also played plenty of mods for Oblivion and Fallout 3 and the developers for both those games strongly support they're modding community, they even give their mod tools away for FREE with the game when you buy it. And the modding for those 2 games are AMAZING and really add life to the game that the Devs could never dream of. Plus the modding community is very friendly and helpful.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment