Games With Deep Complex Stories?

[QUOTE="Diviniuz"]Final Fantasy 8 had a great storyJangoWuzHere

to you maybe :?

I myself love me some Vagrant Story.

It brings me a supreme amount of satisfaction to watch the very flawed characters of FFVIII as they go through the game. I love the part where Rinoa goes up to confront the sorceress herself with a poorly thought out plan and disastrous results.

I wish more games would feature flawed characters.

Edit, Oh I forgot!

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Im looking for a game with a story as deep and complex as the MGS series.

Mark36111

Sounds like you're looking for convolutedness, rather than depth. Just find any five books of fiction, read 1/5 of each of them, and you'll get the MGS effect you desire.

I disagree. MGS is has plenty of depth.

[QUOTE="Mark36111"]

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Im looking for a game with a story as deep and complex as the MGS series.

gaming25

Sounds like you're looking for convolutedness, rather than depth. Just find any five books of fiction, read 1/5 of each of them, and you'll get the MGS effect you desire.

I disagree. MGS is has plenty of depth.

There are a lot of things going on in MGS, but they're not all very well thought out.

By the way,

hakanakumono

Xenosaga was sooo goooooddd! Its a shame no one makes games like that anymore. :(

I would vote for dragon age origins or anything made by bioware. They're fairly complex, though not at a 'philosophical' level, and they nail that engagement level every single time.

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

[QUOTE="Mark36111"]

Sounds like you're looking for convolutedness, rather than depth. Just find any five books of fiction, read 1/5 of each of them, and you'll get the MGS effect you desire.

I disagree. MGS is has plenty of depth.

There are a lot of things going on in MGS, but they're not all very well thought out.

Shadow of the Colossus, ICO, and Cryostasis.

Shadow of the Colossus and ICO are more of a kind of minimalist "tell a lot using only a little" narrative type things where as Cryostasis is a deep mystery type thing, in case you're discerning between which KIND of stories you like more.

Xenosaga was sooo goooooddd! Its a shame no one makes games like that anymore. :(

PSdual_wielder

It's a travesty.

Halo, Bioshock, Alan Wake, etc. These are all games with shallow stories.erglesmergle

Halo and Alan Wake don't have impressive stories to be sure, but how can you call Bioshock's story "shallow". It has a very mature, thematic plot, and has one of the most well realized settings gaming has ever seen.

lost odyssey

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

I disagree. MGS is has plenty of depth.

gaming25

There are a lot of things going on in MGS, but they're not all very well thought out.

I think the story in MGS was very well thought out, but the problem falls on the fact its TOO detailed. Kojima brings out very serious themes every single time, except very rarely do you really feel the impact of them.

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Halo, Bioshock, Alan Wake, etc. These are all games with shallow stories.

Halo and Alan Wake don't have impressive stories to be sure, but how can you call Bioshock's story "shallow". It has a very mature, thematic plot, and has one of the most well realized settings gaming has ever seen.

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

There are a lot of things going on in MGS, but they're not all very well thought out.

I think the story in MGS was very well thought out, but the problem falls on the fact its TOO detailed. Kojima brings out very serious themes every single time, except very rarely do you really feel the impact of them.

To be honest I don't think games can really shoot to have deep complex stories. Atleast, not to the extent people want. There has to be gameplay to back it all up which has to be fun and engaging and frankly, I don't see how wome of these games can do it when you essentially reveal cool deep philosphical message then move on to blasting off heads. Its not a knock in any sense, I just think that for games to truly have stories and plots that makes sense alot of the gameplay around them needs to be honed to not seem ridiculous in the context. Frankly I don't want that to happen.

To be honest I don't think games can really shoot to have deep complex stories. Atleast, not to the extent people want. There has to be gameplay to back it all up which has to be fun and engaging and frankly, I don't see how wome of these games can do it when you essentially reveal cool deep philosphical message then move on to blasting off heads. Its not a knock in any sense, I just think that for games to truly have stories and plots that makes sense alot of the gameplay around them needs to be honed to not seem ridiculous in the context. Frankly I don't want that to happen.

ActicEdge

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Halo, Bioshock, Alan Wake, etc. These are all games with shallow stories.WTA2k5

Halo and Alan Wake don't have impressive stories to be sure, but how can you call Bioshock's story "shallow". It has a very mature, thematic plot, and has one of the most well realized settings gaming has ever seen.

Because its not MGS / Xenogears deep.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest I don't think games can really shoot to have deep complex stories. Atleast, not to the extent people want. There has to be gameplay to back it all up which has to be fun and engaging and frankly, I don't see how wome of these games can do it when you essentially reveal cool deep philosphical message then move on to blasting off heads. Its not a knock in any sense, I just think that for games to truly have stories and plots that makes sense alot of the gameplay around them needs to be honed to not seem ridiculous in the context. Frankly I don't want that to happen.

savagetwinkie

But is that a dep and complex plot or just a well realized world and characters? I don't think its the same thing at all. Frankly though, I haven't played Red Dead so I can't comment on it.

[QUOTE="PSdual_wielder"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"] Like what?gaming25

I think the story in MGS was very well thought out, but the problem falls on the fact its TOO detailed. Kojima brings out very serious themes every single time, except very rarely do you really feel the impact of them.

I meant through gameplay. :P

With the exception of Peace Walker and Snake Eater, in all of the games you're just playing pure hide and seek and very little of much else. In peace walker where the game was about leadership and deterrance in the cold war, you get to actually build your own army and technology to rival your enemies.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest I don't think games can really shoot to have deep complex stories. Atleast, not to the extent people want. There has to be gameplay to back it all up which has to be fun and engaging and frankly, I don't see how wome of these games can do it when you essentially reveal cool deep philosphical message then move on to blasting off heads. Its not a knock in any sense, I just think that for games to truly have stories and plots that makes sense alot of the gameplay around them needs to be honed to not seem ridiculous in the context. Frankly I don't want that to happen.

savagetwinkie

Ugh. The cast was top notch terrible. Story just acceptable. And missions were OK. The only thing that makes this game a must play is the environments.

[QUOTE="WTA2k5"]

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Halo, Bioshock, Alan Wake, etc. These are all games with shallow stories.

Halo and Alan Wake don't have impressive stories to be sure, but how can you call Bioshock's story "shallow". It has a very mature, thematic plot, and has one of the most well realized settings gaming has ever seen.

Because its not MGS / Xenogears deep.

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="PSdual_wielder"]

I think the story in MGS was very well thought out, but the problem falls on the fact its TOO detailed. Kojima brings out very serious themes every single time, except very rarely do you really feel the impact of them.

PSdual_wielder

I meant through gameplay. :P

With the exception of Peace Walker and Snake Eater, in all of the games you're just playing pure hide and seek and very little of much else.

Thats what a tactical secret agent game is all about. And Snake Eater btw, is the epitome of "pure hide and seek" for MGS.

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest I don't think games can really shoot to have deep complex stories. Atleast, not to the extent people want. There has to be gameplay to back it all up which has to be fun and engaging and frankly, I don't see how wome of these games can do it when you essentially reveal cool deep philosphical message then move on to blasting off heads. Its not a knock in any sense, I just think that for games to truly have stories and plots that makes sense alot of the gameplay around them needs to be honed to not seem ridiculous in the context. Frankly I don't want that to happen.

erglesmergle

Ugh. The cast was top notch terrible. Story just acceptable. And missions were OK. The only thing that makes this game a must play is the environments.

The narrative was clean and the script was written really well. But when it comes down to it yeah the plot iteself wasn't 'complicated'.

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest I don't think games can really shoot to have deep complex stories. Atleast, not to the extent people want. There has to be gameplay to back it all up which has to be fun and engaging and frankly, I don't see how wome of these games can do it when you essentially reveal cool deep philosphical message then move on to blasting off heads. Its not a knock in any sense, I just think that for games to truly have stories and plots that makes sense alot of the gameplay around them needs to be honed to not seem ridiculous in the context. Frankly I don't want that to happen.

Ugh. The cast was top notch terrible. Story just acceptable. And missions were OK. The only thing that makes this game a must play is the environments.

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

ActicEdge

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

ActicEdge

Games are media. We can enjoy them for whatever we want. If a game's aim is to deliver a great story, then we can enjoy it based on that merit. If a game's aim is to deliver great gameplay, we can enjoy it on that merit. We can even enjoy it on both merits.

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

ActicEdge

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

hakanakumono

Games are media. We can enjoy them for whatever we want. If a game's aim is to deliver a great story, then we can enjoy it based on that merit. If a game's aim is to deliver great gameplay, we can enjoy it on that merit. We can even enjoy it on both merits.

I was posing it more as a question that a statement hencethe "question mark" :P

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] its possible to do, games do it all the time, i don't think any one mentioned red dead redemtion, but its a murderer that you end up sympethizing with and the end....savagetwinkie

Ugh. The cast was top notch terrible. Story just acceptable. And missions were OK. The only thing that makes this game a must play is the environments.

Probably the most beautiful and pleasing to look at environments out of all the games Ive played. Ill explain why the cast was terrible. Skinny annoying gravedigger, rich annoying salesman, Irish drunk, dedicated revolution leader, ignorant scientist, all there to piss you off. Plus, Im not a fan of "meets random people who helps you on your mission" games.

The only thing I liked: environments, McFarlanes character and dialogue, scientist/native american jokes.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

savagetwinkie

I disagree with this. That's like suggesting someone write a book without describing what's happening. Without cutscenes, there is no narrative.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

savagetwinkie

But youre absolutely right about this. I just dont know how one would tell the story of the MGS series without cutscenes.

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

hakanakumono

I disagree with this. That's like suggesting someone write a book without describing what's happening. Without cutscenes, there is no narrative.

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

To be honest, does heavy handed story telling and complex narrative really help the cause of games?

But youre absolutely right about this. I just dont know how one would tell the story of the MGS series without cutscenes.

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] Games need to find new ways to tell stories and try to avoid cutscenes and encyclopedias, Half life 2 is a good example. I think MGS4 is a good example how not to do a game, same with heavy rain. The strength in video games is playing so i think making people watch the story isn't proper way to do it.savagetwinkie

But youre absolutely right about this. I just dont know how one would tell the story of the MGS series without cutscenes.

I think this falls along with "I don't want to take the time to pay attention to the story." If story isn't important to you, then skip it.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] Games need to find new ways to tell stories and try to avoid cutscenes and encyclopedias, Half life 2 is a good example. I think MGS4 is a good example how not to do a game, same with heavy rain. The strength in video games is playing so i think making people watch the story isn't proper way to do it.erglesmergle

I disagree with this. That's like suggesting someone write a book without describing what's happening. Without cutscenes, there is no narrative.

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

Then it's probably not a narrative. I've never played Half Life 2, but I've once been told that Metroid Prime had a good story because of all the background information you discover. And while it may be interesting, it's still not a narrative.

Games like Siren have a lot of story that is not told through cutscenes, but through archive files that the player stumbles across. But it also has cutscenes, which both come together to become a narrative. If it did not have cutscenes, it wouldn't have a narrative and I wouldn't consider it to have a "good" story.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] Games need to find new ways to tell stories and try to avoid cutscenes and encyclopedias, Half life 2 is a good example. I think MGS4 is a good example how not to do a game, same with heavy rain. The strength in video games is playing so i think making people watch the story isn't proper way to do it.erglesmergle

I disagree with this. That's like suggesting someone write a book without describing what's happening. Without cutscenes, there is no narrative.

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy and any Silent Hill game.

[QUOTE="Alias_nemesis"]

can't go wrong with Final Fantasy X

Nedemis

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

But youre absolutely right about this. I just dont know how one would tell the story of the MGS series without cutscenes.

I think this falls along with "I don't want to take the time to pay attention to the story." If story isn't important to you, then skip it.

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

I disagree with this. That's like suggesting someone write a book without describing what's happening. Without cutscenes, there is no narrative.

hakanakumono

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

Then it's probably not a narrative. I've never played Half Life 2, but I've once been told that Metroid Prime had a good story because of all the background information you discover. And while it may be interesting, it's still not a narrative.

Games like Siren have a lot of story that is not told through cutscenes, but through archive files that the player stumbles across. But it also has cutscenes, which both come together to become a narrative. If it did not have cutscenes, it wouldn't have a narrative and I wouldn't consider it to have a "good" story.

That is complete bull ****. Games like Half-life 2 and System Shock 2 not only have a better narrative than 90% of the video games out there, they are actually some of the most innovative as well. Cutscenes (aka movies) are NOT video game medium, when a developer uses cutscenes, they are using movies/cinematics to tell their story, NOT video games as a medium itself.

Games like Half-life 2, or even Bioshock are some of the few games that are ACTUALLY pushing this industry forward in story-telling, using cutscenes is pushing it backwards in many cases. Telling the story within the gameplay, and by using the strengths this medium can provide (as said games do), are the only way video games can evolve.

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

I disagree with this. That's like suggesting someone write a book without describing what's happening. Without cutscenes, there is no narrative.

VanHelsingBoA64

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

Next time you make a comment like that, it'd be probably be better to make sure you've actually played the game, before talking.

Blazblue.VanHelsingBoA64

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

Then it's probably not a narrative. I've never played Half Life 2, but I've once been told that Metroid Prime had a good story because of all the background information you discover. And while it may be interesting, it's still not a narrative.

Games like Siren have a lot of story that is not told through cutscenes, but through archive files that the player stumbles across. But it also has cutscenes, which both come together to become a narrative. If it did not have cutscenes, it wouldn't have a narrative and I wouldn't consider it to have a "good" story.

That is complete bull ****. Games like Half-life 2 and System Shock 2 not only have a better narrative than 90% of the video games out there, they are actually some of the most innovative as well. Cutscenes (aka movies) are NOT video game medium, when a developer uses cutscenes, they are using movies/cinematics to tell their story, NOT video games as a medium itself.

Games like Half-life 2, or even Bioshock are some of the few games that are ACTUALLY pushing this industry forward in story-telling, using cutscenes is pushing it backwards in many cases. Telling the story within the gameplay, and by using the strengths this medium can provide (as said games do), are the only way video games can evolve.

narratives in most any way of presentation will only satisfy you proportional to the amount of effort you put into understanding and applying it to any themes messages or story it attempts to get across.

with that said, some games that you may label as a "shallow story" may be a powerful thematic experience for another, so I would change your edit post if I were you.

and yes, planescape torment is one you should definitely look into to.

cryostasis had a pretty thought provoking story as well for me anyway.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]

Half Life 2 did a lot of story telling without cutscenes. Of course, it being in first person helped a lot. Also it might not work with extremely complex stories. But your last sentence is wrong.

TheGrayEye

Then it's probably not a narrative. I've never played Half Life 2, but I've once been told that Metroid Prime had a good story because of all the background information you discover. And while it may be interesting, it's still not a narrative.

Games like Siren have a lot of story that is not told through cutscenes, but through archive files that the player stumbles across. But it also has cutscenes, which both come together to become a narrative. If it did not have cutscenes, it wouldn't have a narrative and I wouldn't consider it to have a "good" story.

That is complete bull ****. Games like Half-life 2 and System Shock 2 not only have a better narrative than 90% of the video games out there, they are actually some of the most innovative as well. Cutscenes (aka movies) are NOT video game medium, when a developer uses cutscenes, they are using movies/cinematics to tell their story, NOT video games as a medium itself.

Games like Half-life 2, or even Bioshock are some of the few games that are ACTUALLY pushing this industry forward in story-telling, using cutscenes is pushing it backwards in many cases. Telling the story within the gameplay, and by using the strengths this medium can provide (as said games do), are the only way video games can evolve.

Bull. Videogames can employ a multitude of ways in which to tell a story, which may involve reading, watching, and actually playing. It's silly to make arbitrary lines on what constitutes "real videogame storytelling" and "fake videogame storytelling" when all of these things can be done within the game.

Videogames are visual media. That is why cutscenes are used. It's not because of some sort of identity crisis; it's in the nature of the medium.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] alot of the things in MGS series never need to be said because it goes into way too much detail, its a matter of delivering information while still letting someone play the dam game. A complex story isn't necesarrily good or deep, and games have proven you can make a game filled with emotion and a deep but simple story.savagetwinkie

I think this falls along with "I don't want to take the time to pay attention to the story." If story isn't important to you, then skip it.

Of course MGS could edit a lot of the fat. You're right. But there's a huge difference between applying gameplay as storytelling when applicable and removing cutscenes from the formula entirely.