FFX.
I said it. Now i expect the haters to hate.
Games With Deep Complex Stories?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="jrabbit99"]Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Halo, War Craft, Gears of War, Alan WakeSnagal123
Out of those only Alan Wake is unique.
Mass Effect = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Dragon Age = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Warcraft = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Gears of War = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Do i need to go on? I don't think you could have listed more unoriginal stories.
Many game stories are not unique, but thats ok, good storytelling and narrative can make up for that.
Er, that really doesn't sum up Warcraft very well at all.
[QUOTE="Snagal123"][QUOTE="jrabbit99"]Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Halo, War Craft, Gears of War, Alan Wakeithilgore2006
Out of those only Alan Wake is unique.
Mass Effect = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Dragon Age = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Warcraft = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Gears of War = An ancient evil comes to kill all life
Do i need to go on? I don't think you could have listed more unoriginal stories.
Many game stories are not unique, but thats ok, good storytelling and narrative can make up for that.
Er, that really doesn't sum up Warcraft very well at all. Alan Wake: AN ancient evil comes to kill all life? That's what I got from it at least. Again I say MGS. No other story comes close.[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
[QUOTE="TheGrayEye"]
Keep in mind that like I said earlier, I think cutscenes can be used to tell a story in a game, but using movies to tell a story in a video game isn't pushing the video-game medium forward in any real storytelling sense. Also, in games like Metal gear, the only time you're usually playing, is when there is action or sneaking around, most of which isn't really critical to the actual story, and thus not much story is really being told at all through the gameplay, especially when compared to the incredibly long cutscenes.
Also, having charcters stop to talk worked just fine in HL2, at no point in the game (except perhaps the very beginning) was a cutscene really used in the game, much less needed. It starts transcending into a cutscene, when I have no control over the gameplay, and I can set the controller down to watch (like the clicker for a movie).
System Shock 2 is just as innovative as Half-life 2, because the story is told through both the environment, radio/audio diaries, and self-discovery. You walk around the spooky space ship, finding bloody writting on the wall, and audio diaries lying around from dead crew members, giving insight into the story and what happened. Also, the only real conversations that occur through the game, are characters talking to you over radio, while you are playing, this makes it so gameplay is never interupted with a movie, and instead, we can actually take advantage of the mediums ability to create a interactible world that the player is free to explore and learn about, rather then limit our discovery to specifc cutscenes and camera angles.
TheGrayEye
There is no real difference between movies and cutscenes besides the graphical fidelity and the way in which the game handles them. The sneaking around is part of the story int he same sense that a novel regarding a spy would describe the sneaking. Without it, the game lacks framework.
It may have worked just fine in HL2, but there are a lot of stories where it would not work. A lot is dependent ont he story content. Abstinence from cutscenes is an unhealthy restriction to place upon oneself, imo, because it limits what you can do.
That sounds like backstory, but it's not a narrative. Those kind of things are great complements for a narrative, but they cannot substitute for a narrative itself. It should be noted that this is typically done in Japanese Survival Horror games.
"same sense that a novel regarding a spy would describe the sneaking"- Ah, but when a novel is both describing scenes of dialog between characters, and someone sneaking around a base, it is seamless, there is no medium-level distinction in between it. Reading can only be based around our ability of sight, there is no sound or real level of interaction. There is in a game though, and when you take that interaction away, it ceases to become a game, even if it is just for a minute or two.
I think it's the opposite, cutscenes (for video games) limit what you can do. If I want to sit down on that chair while talking to a character, I can't because the cutscene is fully scripted, and out of my hands. Cutscenes take away the player's ability to make choices, and most of all, to interact- which is a staple of video games. Imagine if you were watching an actual movie at the theaters, and then all of a sudden one of the characters in the film pulled out a book, and then the only thing that was on screen were pages and silence for ten minutes, as the shot consisted soley of pages from the book (ones that the audience were expected to read)...
Also with System Shock 2 (and Bioshock), it actually managed to take audio diaries, which are often used soley for collectible bits of simple backstory nowadays, into a front that can actually be used to discover the reality and secrets of the actual story. You could play through Bioshock without really listening to the diaries, and understand the story at a basic level, but the audio diaries were the actual star of the narrative, they allowed you to discover entierly new levels that the plot had existed on, critical storylines that were central to the main plot, making it more than just backstory material. It's the type of story that works in a video game, the way 2001:a space odyssey works the way it does as a movie.
It also allows for a great level of subtly, because with Bioshock, so much of the environment and art deco (statues, etc) speak volumes about the mindset of Andrew Ryan and the characters in Rapture, without needing to have a huge cutscene explain all that in flashbacks (like Metal Gear would do).
I think you're confusing opinion as fact. IN YOUR OPINION, Half-Life's method of telling a story is better for you. For quite a few (lots) of people, cutscenes work just fine. There is no way a game could implement some scenes the way they do if done through pure gameplay. You mentioned the scene in MGS3 where Snake does the HALO jump out of the plane. While you could very easily implement that scene as gameplay, it would not have the same effect for setting up the mood for that portion of the game.
You ask for innovative ways to tell stories, yet completely forget about Quick-Time Actions, and interactive cutscenes that Metal Gear has added in since MGS3. I feel you simply like one method over another, but just because you like the HL2/System Shock story telling doesn't make it superior.
Dragon Age: Origins, people may say that the game has a cliche plot, which it kind of does, but the only cliche part is the "A group of warriors against an ancient evil". All the faction questes, the Fade, Dwarven politics, The Circle of Magi, the Werewolves, Deep Roads, Warden's Peak ! It is all so detailed and great, the basis may seem cliche, but when you read the codex, talk with NPCs, it is so much more detailed and deep. My favourite part is the Flemeth legend and all of the stories Leliana says.
svenus97
Just because theres alot of writing doesn't mean that its all good. Dragon Age does have good writing. Dragon Age also has a lot of lore. But that doesn't mean its got a good story.
I think Dragon Age has some of the best *storytelling* in a game but not a particularly great story.
Metal Gear Solid Series
Resident Evil (the ones before RE4, thats when the plan was changed to TAKE OVER THE WORLD...not sure what they planned on doing with it)
Silent Hill 1 & 2
[QUOTE="TheGrayEye"]
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
There is no real difference between movies and cutscenes besides the graphical fidelity and the way in which the game handles them. The sneaking around is part of the story int he same sense that a novel regarding a spy would describe the sneaking. Without it, the game lacks framework.
It may have worked just fine in HL2, but there are a lot of stories where it would not work. A lot is dependent ont he story content. Abstinence from cutscenes is an unhealthy restriction to place upon oneself, imo, because it limits what you can do.
That sounds like backstory, but it's not a narrative. Those kind of things are great complements for a narrative, but they cannot substitute for a narrative itself. It should be noted that this is typically done in Japanese Survival Horror games.
"same sense that a novel regarding a spy would describe the sneaking"- Ah, but when a novel is both describing scenes of dialog between characters, and someone sneaking around a base, it is seamless, there is no medium-level distinction in between it. Reading can only be based around our ability of sight, there is no sound or real level of interaction. There is in a game though, and when you take that interaction away, it ceases to become a game, even if it is just for a minute or two.
I think it's the opposite, cutscenes (for video games) limit what you can do. If I want to sit down on that chair while talking to a character, I can't because the cutscene is fully scripted, and out of my hands. Cutscenes take away the player's ability to make choices, and most of all, to interact- which is a staple of video games. Imagine if you were watching an actual movie at the theaters, and then all of a sudden one of the characters in the film pulled out a book, and then the only thing that was on screen were pages and silence for ten minutes, as the shot consisted soley of pages from the book (ones that the audience were expected to read)...
Also with System Shock 2 (and Bioshock), it actually managed to take audio diaries, which are often used soley for collectible bits of simple backstory nowadays, into a front that can actually be used to discover the reality and secrets of the actual story. You could play through Bioshock without really listening to the diaries, and understand the story at a basic level, but the audio diaries were the actual star of the narrative, they allowed you to discover entierly new levels that the plot had existed on, critical storylines that were central to the main plot, making it more than just backstory material. It's the type of story that works in a video game, the way 2001:a space odyssey works the way it does as a movie.
It also allows for a great level of subtly, because with Bioshock, so much of the environment and art deco (statues, etc) speak volumes about the mindset of Andrew Ryan and the characters in Rapture, without needing to have a huge cutscene explain all that in flashbacks (like Metal Gear would do).
In FFXIII, the transition between cutscenes and gameplay are pretty seamless. Just because there are cutscenes doesn't mean they can't be seamless. Furthermore, I don't think games necessarily need to be seamless.
You're talking about what the player can do; I'm talking about what the writer can do. I don't think that the player needs to interact on every level of a game, especially when this can conflict with direction. Yes, that would be silly and that's one way in which videogames have strength over the other two major mediums; Games can employ a multitude of storytelling techniques.
Right, that's backstory but that's not the narrative.
as soon as the game takes control and goes to a cutscene its not seamless. its a transtion from gameplay to movie.dante`s inferno
[QUOTE="Indie_Hitman"][QUOTE="devious742"] yes lol the part where they all of a sudden remember they all grew up together...thats when i went :lol:YOU ******* I'M JUST 1 DAY AWAY FROM FINALLY PLAYING AND... FOR THE LOVE OF GODOuch. :( I know. I avoided spoilers for so long... Maybe I'll magically forget and everything will be better. [rocks back and forth]NAPK1NS
I know the TC excluded some of these but I have to put them. Here's the games that IMO have great complex stories: Lost Odyssey, Both Assassins Creed's, Both Bioshock's, Alan Wake, FFXIII and FFX, and both Kingdom Heart's.
Flower:P
but seriously
Jak and Daxter
[QUOTE="MJPK"]I thought The Darkness had a pretty interesting story with really neat mechanics, I don't know that I'd call the story complex.Metal Gear series
Final Fantasy X
The Witcher
Warcraft series
Bioshock
Half Life series
Alan Wake
The Darkness(maybe?)
hellhund
Agree with the darkness 100%. The story isnt mind blowing or anything... but the storytelling and presentation is top notch.
Still Planescape: torment is and always will have the best story in any game, ever. The game puts best selling novelists to shame. I honestly have no idea how such a rich and complex tale made its way into a video game.
I agree with people saying cut scenes like in MGS are a terrible way to portray story in games. Every time the game wants to tell you a story, it rips the controller from your hands. A lot of time it's to tell a story that is better than the actually game (final fantasy). If a developer is making a game just so they can create a setting and tell a story, there are much better mediums than games; like books, movies, animation...etc.
Imagine you went to see a move, let's say starwars, at the theatre. And Skywalker is flying around the death star about to blow it up when he get's shot down by Vader. The movie stops, rewinds, and you have to watch the scene over and over again until Luke gets it right. That's what stories are like in video games.
It also doesn't help that developers seem to think that complex=good. Games like MGS have cheap and poolry edited plots. They're the kind of writing you'd get from a freshmen lit. Video games have the same cliche stories that plague most animes and comic books. They never have drama's without tons of violence. Can anyone name one video game with a dramatic plot and no combat? I can sorta name one. Games are just way too far behind other mediums of story telling to have an impact.
Developers should be using their medium to their advantage when creating stories in games. They shouldn't be juggling time between gameplay and movie. It's inconsistent and takes away from immersion. They should be trying to seamlessly merge story and gameplay as one. They should focus on what is simple and emotional, not the kind of amateur convoluted crap like in Xenogears. The gameplay it's self should tell the story. Shadow of the Colossus is a wonderful example of this. Every single thing in that game is made to create emotion. It's drenched in symbolism, and it leaves you to put everything together instead of just dictating everything to you in long cut scenes with bad writing and bad voice acting. Its story is both simple and deep. Its story is elegant. And most importantly, its story actually makes use of its medium.
[QUOTE="erglesmergle"]
What are some games from any platform any generation with very deep well written stories? No generic "guy saves world from alien invasion" games. And to set the bar, lets just say Heavy Rain had a bad story. Go.
felipebo
Uhh, what? Are you forbbiding us from using HR because you didn't like it?
In short, Heavy Rain's narrative was pretty terrible. Even as far as B grade thrillers go.[QUOTE="jkhd831"]0_0 you do know the story in that game with bs right? Its was both poorly scripted, and poorly acted. If it wasn't for everything else about the game that being great it would have made it a very bad game.Not from this gen, but Final Fantasy X.
Lable1985
What does it take for a story to qualify as BS?
[QUOTE="felipebo"][QUOTE="erglesmergle"]
What are some games from any platform any generation with very deep well written stories? No generic "guy saves world from alien invasion" games. And to set the bar, lets just say Heavy Rain had a bad story. Go.
skrat_01
Uhh, what? Are you forbbiding us from using HR because you didn't like it?
In short, Heavy Rain's narrative was pretty terrible. Even as far as B grade thrillers go.This is true.
Planescape: Torment.
Bioshock no doubt.
Thats as high brow as the vidoegames industry has gotten,or is likely to get for sometime.
stvee101
Funny you say that, when System Shock 2 had a more complex and "high brow" plot... especially considering when BioShock was merely a Randian adaption of that same plot, but to a much shallower extent.
halo has a very good story so did system shock 1&2, bioshock, and shadow of the collosus
I agree with people saying cut scenes like in MGS are a terrible way to portray story in games. Every time the game wants to tell you a story, it rips the controller from your hands. A lot of time it's to tell a story that is better than the actually game (final fantasy). If a developer is making a game just so they can create a setting and tell a story, there are much better mediums than games; like books, movies, animation...etc.
It also doesn't help that developers seem to think that complex=good. Games like MGS have cheap and poolry edited plots. They're the kind of writing you'd get from a freshmen lit. Video games have the same cliche stories that plague most animes and comic books. They never have drama's without tons of violence. Can anyone name one video game with a dramatic plot and no combat? I can sorta name one. Games are just way too far behind other mediums of story telling to have an impact.
Developers should be using their medium to their advantage when creating stories in games. They shouldn't be juggling time between gameplay and movie. It's inconsistent and takes away from immersion. They should be trying to seamlessly merge story and gameplay as one. They should focus on what is simple and emotional, not the kind of amateur convoluted crap like in Xenogears. The gameplay it's self should tell the story. Shadow of the Colossus is a wonderful example of this. Every single thing in that game is made to create emotion. It's drenched in symbolism, and it leaves you to put everything together instead of just dictating everything to you in long cut scenes with bad writing and bad voice acting. Its story is both simple and deep. Its story is elegant. And most importantly, its story actually makes use of its medium.
goblaa
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the MGS story is too convoluted and poorly written to be considered good in my opinion.
In regards to taking advantage of the medium, I'm going to go with Bioshock and even, yes, I'll say it... Splinter Cell Conviction. Those two specifically because they work the concept of interactivity into the narrative experience.
Even in terms of pure story and the subtely of themes and imagery, I'll say Oddworld Strangers Wrath.
Convoluted is just a word used to describe complexity in a negative light. Complexity in of itself isn't always going to bring a story to greater heights, but games that discuss and explore a number of complex subjects are going to be complex and this will always lead those who don't want to deal with complexity discarding it as "convoluted." Not to mention the fact that "convoluted" is used to describe a wide range of complexities in storytelling.
To all the people complaining about cutscenes and what-not, ala Advice Dog:
"Have 1000s of game to play with minimal cutscenes and zero plot...
...complain when 1 or 2 series break the trend"
Not really. You can be complex without being convoluted. For instance, Bioshock dealt with a number of incredibly complex themes (more so than, say, MGS) and it isn't convoluted. Speaking as a writer, if your story is convoluted, you have failed at telling it. Convoluted=/=complex.Convoluted is just a word used to describe complexity in a negative light. Complexity isn't always inherently good, but games that discuss and explore a number of complex subjects are going to be complex and this will always lead those who don't want to deal with complexity discarding it as "convoluted." Not to mention the fact that "convoluted" is used to describe a wide range of complexities in storytelling.
hakanakumono
I really liked the stories in FF:Tactics and Vagrant Story. I really love the themes in FF:Tactics, where the very people who claimed they would change the world for the better turned into the very things they were fighting against in the first place. Other FF games that I have played arn't very subtle in their execution, and their "depth" comes from being overly complex and ridiculous (FF7/8 anyone?).
On the flip side I also really like MGS, which is overly complex and ridiculous. The execution isn't flat though, so I still enjoy them quite a lot, especially MGS1 and 3.
There's also a lot of really awesome Adventure games, but they have an unfair advantage :P.
I really wish I had more time to comment on this thread, but unfortunately I'm in a rush. I completely agree with you about the importance of story telling and how games like Heavy Rain are not sufficient. Heavy Rain is wonderful as it breaths new life into an otherwise simple story using video games. And while the first 20 mins of Bioshock set up for something incredible it dwindles and loses depth.
20 years of gaming later I don't have very many games to suggest.
I would definately put Half-life 2 and Ico/Shadow of the Colossus at thev very top of story-telling in games, unfortunately in order to appreciate that sort of minimalism you need to be pretty versed in cinema/theater/literature to begin with.
I really enjoyed the narrative in Metal Gear Solid 3 (although I think that the other games are VERY sloppy, especially 4) and I loved psyconaughts, but
I think that a lot of the people putting FFX for great story will eventually grow out of this love. The only Final Fantasy with a well written story is FF9 (don't get me wrong I really enjoyed 6-10 as a gamer, it's just the writting that's not up to snuff) and that's on account of it being a generic medivale sort of fantasy tale, like one from a children's book. It's very hard to be poor quality in that sort of context.
I'm sorry I need to go to work, I'd love to further this discussion later on though.
MGS3.
1. twisted; coiled.
2. complicated; intricately involved; a convoluted way of describing a simple device
V V V
1. Composed of elaborately connected parts; complex;
2. difficult to analyze, understand, explain, etc.: a complicated problem.
People will find anything complex to be convoluted because complex and complicated are two sides of the same coin. There is likely someone out there who thinks Bioshock is convoluted.
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]Not really. You can be complex without being convoluted. For instance, Bioshock dealt with a number of incredibly complex themes (more so than, say, MGS) and it isn't convoluted. Speaking as a writer, if your story is convoluted, you have failed at telling it. Convoluted=/=complex.Convoluted is just a word used to describe complexity in a negative light. Complexity isn't always inherently good, but games that discuss and explore a number of complex subjects are going to be complex and this will always lead those who don't want to deal with complexity discarding it as "convoluted." Not to mention the fact that "convoluted" is used to describe a wide range of complexities in storytelling.
DarkLink77
I wouldn't call objectivism that complex. No more so than say, existentialism.
And convoluted=/bad. Some people, such as my self have no problems with convolutedness, and don't see it as a bad thing at all.
I really wish I had more time to comment on this thread, but unfortunately I'm in a rush. I completely agree with you about the importance of story telling and how games like Heavy Rain are not sufficient. Heavy Rain is wonderful as it breaths new life into an otherwise simple story using video games. And while the first 20 mins of Bioshock set up for something incredible it dwindles and loses depth.
20 years of gaming later I don't have very many games to suggest.
I would definately put Half-life 2 and Ico/Shadow of the Colossus at thev very top of story-telling in games, unfortunately in order to appreciate that sort of minimalism you need to be pretty versed in cinema/theater/literature to begin with.
I really enjoyed the narrative in Metal Gear Solid 3 (although I think that the other games are VERY sloppy, especially 4) and I loved psyconaughts, but
I think that a lot of the people putting FFX for great story will eventually grow out of this love. The only Final Fantasy with a well written story is FF9 (don't get me wrong I really enjoyed 6-10 as a gamer, it's just the writting that's not up to snuff) and that's on account of it being a generic medivale sort of fantasy tale, like one from a children's book. It's very hard to be poor quality in that sort of context.
I'm sorry I need to go to work, I'd love to further this discussion later on though.
Thebutter
It took me until I was older to fully appreciate Final Fantasy X.
If a plot is "intricately involved," to me it has more potential to be more interesting. This world is already intricately involved; why shouldn't our storytelling be?
Not really. You can be complex without being convoluted. For instance, Bioshock dealt with a number of incredibly complex themes (more so than, say, MGS) and it isn't convoluted. Speaking as a writer, if your story is convoluted, you have failed at telling it. Convoluted=/=complex.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
Convoluted is just a word used to describe complexity in a negative light. Complexity isn't always inherently good, but games that discuss and explore a number of complex subjects are going to be complex and this will always lead those who don't want to deal with complexity discarding it as "convoluted." Not to mention the fact that "convoluted" is used to describe a wide range of complexities in storytelling.
BigBoss154
I wouldn't call objectivism that complex. No more so than say, existentialism.
And convoluted=/bad. Some people, such as my self have no problems with convolutedness, and don't see it as a bad thing at all.
For a video game, I'd say objectivism is extremely complex. Well, you can have a good plot and have it be convoluted. However, in that regard, your storytelling ability would be poor. Convoluted plots aren't bad, they could just be told better.[QUOTE="BigBoss154"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Not really. You can be complex without being convoluted. For instance, Bioshock dealt with a number of incredibly complex themes (more so than, say, MGS) and it isn't convoluted. Speaking as a writer, if your story is convoluted, you have failed at telling it. Convoluted=/=complex.DarkLink77
I wouldn't call objectivism that complex. No more so than say, existentialism.
And convoluted=/bad. Some people, such as my self have no problems with convolutedness, and don't see it as a bad thing at all.
For a video game, I'd say objectivism is extremely complex. Well, you can have a good plot and have it be convoluted. However, in that regard, your storytelling ability would be poor. Convoluted plots aren't bad, they could just be told better.If a story is convoluted in it's way of describing something that isn't necessarily as convoluted as it's told, then it's likely a sign of amateurish writing. But if the subject matter is complex and the story appears "convoluted" because of it, then I don't think it's a sign of poor writing.
Not really. You can be complex without being convoluted. For instance, Bioshock dealt with a number of incredibly complex themes (more so than, say, MGS) and it isn't convoluted. Speaking as a writer, if your story is convoluted, you have failed at telling it. Convoluted=/=complex.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
Convoluted is just a word used to describe complexity in a negative light. Complexity isn't always inherently good, but games that discuss and explore a number of complex subjects are going to be complex and this will always lead those who don't want to deal with complexity discarding it as "convoluted." Not to mention the fact that "convoluted" is used to describe a wide range of complexities in storytelling.
BigBoss154
I wouldn't call objectivism that complex. No more so than say, existentialism.
And convoluted=/bad. Some people, such as my self have no problems with convolutedness, and don't see it as a bad thing at all.
It's not the concepts themselves that are labeled convoluted. It's the way those concepts are presented that can described as such.
[QUOTE="BigBoss154"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Not really. You can be complex without being convoluted. For instance, Bioshock dealt with a number of incredibly complex themes (more so than, say, MGS) and it isn't convoluted. Speaking as a writer, if your story is convoluted, you have failed at telling it. Convoluted=/=complex.VoodooHak
I wouldn't call objectivism that complex. No more so than say, existentialism.
And convoluted=/bad. Some people, such as my self have no problems with convolutedness, and don't see it as a bad thing at all.
It's not the concepts themselves that are labeled convoluted. It's the way those concepts are presented that can described as such.
That could be said about anything, could it not? :P
For a video game, I'd say objectivism is extremely complex. Well, you can have a good plot and have it be convoluted. However, in that regard, your storytelling ability would be poor. Convoluted plots aren't bad, they could just be told better.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="BigBoss154"]
I wouldn't call objectivism that complex. No more so than say, existentialism.
And convoluted=/bad. Some people, such as my self have no problems with convolutedness, and don't see it as a bad thing at all.
hakanakumono
If a story is convoluted in it's way of describing something that isn't necessarily as convoluted as it's told, then it's likely a sign of amateurish writing. But if the subject matter is complex and the story appears "convoluted" because of it, then I don't think it's a sign of poor writing.
Point taken. Maybe I just don't think MGS is all that complex. :PIf a plot is "intricately involved," to me it has more potential to be more interesting. This world is already intricately involved; why shouldn't our storytelling be?
hakanakumono
I agree. But there is a craft to storytelling that involves the way intricacy is written. If complexity isnt' written particularly well, then in my eyes, it becomes convoluted.
And yes, convoluted does have a negative connotation.
But seriously, let's move on from defining a single term. Instead, how about we use the phrase "poorly written complexity".
Killer7. The developers seemed to put more effort into creating the story than into the gameplay itself.
[QUOTE="TheGrayEye"]
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
In FFXIII, the transition between cutscenes and gameplay are pretty seamless. Just because there are cutscenes doesn't mean they can't be seamless. Furthermore, I don't think games necessarily need to be seamless.
You're talking about what the player can do; I'm talking about what the writer can do. I don't think that the player needs to interact on every level of a game, especially when this can conflict with direction. Yes, that would be silly and that's one way in which videogames have strength over the other two major mediums; Games can employ a multitude of storytelling techniques.
Right, that's backstory but that's not the narrative.
hakanakumono
Never really played Final Fantasy, so I can't say. You're right that games can touch upon all types of different mediums, but the games that really push the possibilites of being able to tell a story, by almost soley using the strengths an interative medium can provide, are the ones that will be the most innovative- not the game with the longest cutscenes.
The player doesn't need to fully interact with everything, but he also doesn't need to be restrained to watching a cutscene that could have possibly been experienced through actual gameplay. Kojima is a good animated movie director, but doesn't really have any idea how to tell a story by using the largely untapped strengths this medium can offer. Why watch Snake jump out of an aircraft and parachute in a cutscene, when the player could be doing that themselves?
Bioshock hardly has any cutscenes, it tells its story primarily through what you can see in the world around you, and what you can hear (such as characters talking to you over the radio, or diaries you find) as well as the interaction and self-discovery of the world in between. That IS the narrative, if it didn't have one, why was the game univerally praised for having one of the best and most unique narratives in gaming history? Just because it's unconventional, doesn't mean it can't qualify as a storytelling narrative. What is also remarkable, is how the game has practically no face-to-face character dialogs, and still manages to create an emotional and profound level of story. This medium is still a goldmine in terms of completely new forms of story-telling, and games like Half-life 2 and Bioshock are just the start.
It doesn't have much to do with FF itself as much as it has to do with cutscenes coming directly after battles with no loading (boss fights).
Why does the player need to do everything? I understand that games should engage gameplay when possible, but I think it should also be reasonable. Is taking Snake, walking 3 steps to the edge of an aircraft and pressing "x" to jump off really adding something to the game? In Xenosaga Ep. II there is a sword fight between two characters directly followed by a boss fight. Yes, the sword fight could be handled with an in game battle, but the in game battle wouldn't offer the same type of scene and it would be redundant with another fight to follow it.
There are different directions you can take games. There is no one true way to tell a story in a game. I think the problem here is that I haven't played these games so it's difficult for me to discuss them.
They could have easily made it so you were Snake in that plane, in control of him, able to sit down and smoke your cigar, looking badass while your commander talks to you over your radio. The exciting music is still playing and the whole experience still feels cinematic, except that you are the star, and that is the strength an interactive medium like this provides, we don't have to watch the protagonist like a movie, we ARE the protagonist.
I think you should try games like Half-life 2 or Bioshock, because they represent all new directions that gaming can go, and it's the only way you'll have a real insight to what I'm getting at. I'm not saying cutscenes are evil, sometimes they can be quite useful, but I think developers should make more of an effort to explore new ways to tell their story, ways that are exclusive to this medium, and not just animated movies.
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
[QUOTE="TheGrayEye"]
Never really played Final Fantasy, so I can't say. You're right that games can touch upon all types of different mediums, but the games that really push the possibilites of being able to tell a story, by almost soley using the strengths an interative medium can provide, are the ones that will be the most innovative- not the game with the longest cutscenes.
The player doesn't need to fully interact with everything, but he also doesn't need to be restrained to watching a cutscene that could have possibly been experienced through actual gameplay. Kojima is a good animated movie director, but doesn't really have any idea how to tell a story by using the largely untapped strengths this medium can offer. Why watch Snake jump out of an aircraft and parachute in a cutscene, when the player could be doing that themselves?
Bioshock hardly has any cutscenes, it tells its story primarily through what you can see in the world around you, and what you can hear (such as characters talking to you over the radio, or diaries you find) as well as the interaction and self-discovery of the world in between. That IS the narrative, if it didn't have one, why was the game univerally praised for having one of the best and most unique narratives in gaming history? Just because it's unconventional, doesn't mean it can't qualify as a storytelling narrative. What is also remarkable, is how the game has practically no face-to-face character dialogs, and still manages to create an emotional and profound level of story. This medium is still a goldmine in terms of completely new forms of story-telling, and games like Half-life 2 and Bioshock are just the start.
TheGrayEye
It doesn't have much to do with FF itself as much as it has to do with cutscenes coming directly after battles with no loading (boss fights).
Why does the player need to do everything? I understand that games should engage gameplay when possible, but I think it should also be reasonable. Is taking Snake, walking 3 steps to the edge of an aircraft and pressing "x" to jump off really adding something to the game? In Xenosaga Ep. II there is a sword fight between two characters directly followed by a boss fight. Yes, the sword fight could be handled with an in game battle, but the in game battle wouldn't offer the same type of scene and it would be redundant with another fight to follow it.
There are different directions you can take games. There is no one true way to tell a story in a game. I think the problem here is that I haven't played these games so it's difficult for me to discuss them.
They could have easily made it so you were Snake in that plane, in control of him, able to sit down and smoke your cigar, looking badass while your commander talks to you over your radio. The exciting music is still playing and the whole experience still feels cinematic, except that you are the star, and that is the strength an interactive medium like this provides, we don't have to watch the protagonist like a movie, we ARE the protagonist.
I think you should try games like Half-life 2 or Bioshock, because they represent all new directions that gaming can go, and it's the only way you'll have a real insight to what I'm getting at. I'm not saying cutscenes are evil, sometimes they can be quite useful, but I think developers should make more of an effort to explore new ways to tell their story, ways that are exclusive to this medium, and not just animated movies.
You could have walked, as snake, to the bench. Sat down, pressed x to smoke. But to what point? It wouldn't have looked "badass," because it would be done from a gameplay perspective. It wouldn't have ethe same level of anticipation and impact. It wouldn't feel cinematic without special camera angles being employed.
There's no reason why a game has to make the player feel that they are the protagonist.
I think for some games it's appropriate to tell the story in other ways other than cutscenes; even beneficial. But I think in other cases cutscenes are best OR that the benefits of having a scene play out in game time are nil.
[QUOTE="svenus97"]
Dragon Age: Origins, people may say that the game has a cliche plot, which it kind of does, but the only cliche part is the "A group of warriors against an ancient evil". All the faction questes, the Fade, Dwarven politics, The Circle of Magi, the Werewolves, Deep Roads, Warden's Peak ! It is all so detailed and great, the basis may seem cliche, but when you read the codex, talk with NPCs, it is so much more detailed and deep. My favourite part is the Flemeth legend and all of the stories Leliana says.
XaosII
Just because theres alot of writing doesn't mean that its all good. Dragon Age does have good writing. Dragon Age also has a lot of lore. But that doesn't mean its got a good story.
I think Dragon Age has some of the best *storytelling* in a game but not a particularly great story.
Perhaps:P But it can still be good :PPlease Log In to post.
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