Good-Bye Nintendo

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]

Sorry Subrosian, but this debunks your whole post.

.

Wii games published by Nintendo.

Hardcore games announced

1. Twilight Princess
2. Fire Emblem
3. Super Paper Mario
4. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
5. Super Mario Galaxy
6. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
7. Fire Emblem
8. Battalion Wars 2
9. Disaster: Day of Crisis
10. Mario Kart Wii
11. Generic Kirby game
12. Project H.A.M.M.E.R. (maybe)
13. Mario Strikers Charged

Casual games announced

1. Wii Sports
2. Wii Play
3. WarioWare: Smooth Moves
4. Mario Party 8
5. Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
6. Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
7. Endless Ocean
8. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
9. Wii Fit
10. Wii Music
11. Animal Crossing Wii
12. Pokemon Battle Revolution
13. Excite Truck

subrosian

1.RE, Dragon Quest, Crystal Cronicles,Madden, etc...(Let's keep this about Nintendo though, these can be added to the list)

2.Zelda, the Zelda franchise never had voice acting and frankly doesn't need it. On one hand you want Nintendo to stay the same but then want them to advance in other categories. AnyNintendo hardcoregamer, understands the world of Zelda and won't attribute a staple of the series as dumbing it down.

3. Nintendo, the company is still putting out their "hardcore" titles which are for long-time fans of the franchises. You point may be true from a marketing stand point which you should understand why it's necessary but it doesn't hold up in reality. Nintendo is still giving you what you(hardcore) like even though its not on the front page of Newsweek.

Peace, I have to run.

I do not really wish to turn this into a discussion of other systems, but I believe the PSP's biggest problem was simply that it failed to be a portable gaming device. Much like the Game Gear and the Nomad, it didn't have the battery life to make it through a six hour plane ride, or the durability to survive getting kicked around in some kid's backpack. Sony built a powerful device, but they did not take into account how people would actually use it.

Too short of a battery life to survive long away from a plug socket, too bulky and fragile to be carried unprotected in a pocket or backpack, and too expensive to be bought for the younger crowd that is most often the recipient of these devices. Sony built a device for the crowd that's buying iPods, smart phones, and other portable entertainment gadgets, and put itself straight into a highly competitive market, one that simply didn't consume enough games to make it a huge market for publishers.

The PSP isn't broken, or a flop, and there are some good games on the device, it's just that it too failed to answer the question of "what is the core gamer looking for in a portable gaming device?" The answer wasn't pocket versions of PS2 titles, nor was it a substitute for an iPod, and the software sales on the PSP have indicated that. Sony failed to tap the portable *gaming* market.

That and, quite frankly, it's hard to compete with the company that has controlled portable gaming since the late 1980s, for all their blunders, Nintendo has been strong in this arena for some time. However, all of the faults and competition aside, the PSP has done remarkably well for what it is, and Sony's dent into the previously Nintendo monopolized handheld gaming market is interesting. I'm personally going to be keeping an eye on where things go with the "PSP Lite".

However, yeah, it should be easy to see how many more issues revolve around the actual portable machine itself, whereas in the console market the focus has been a great deal more on games, with the nuances of hardware still being important, but playing a much smaller role.
subrosian

PSP hardware is intrinsically crap. everything from the form factor, to the load times, battery life and controls are not fit for purpose. Thus it is broken

The PSP was suppsoed to wrest control of the portable handheld market from Nintendo (quite possible seeing they did the same with consoles). The software sales are laughable compared to the DS as are the hardware sales. Thus it is a flop.

You can't lay off of criticisms of poor machines just because they "have a few good games". Hell the Wii has a few good games and has had some promising stuff announced. That doesn't mean it's standing as a serious gaming paltform is signigficantly improved.

The PSP did not "make a dent" in Nintendo's handheld dominance, if anything they exacerbated it. And i hardly think that a handheld that sold twice as much as the game gear could be considered anything less than a travesty from a company that was leading the console market all last gen.

If you wish to make a topic cricitising the mediocrity of the Wii you must be prepared to apply that to other machines. If you cannot recognise the brilliance of the DS and you downplay the failures of the PSP then your "impartial "criticisms of the Wii can not and should not be taken seriously.

TC I got to say your thoughts are well thought out and I agree with you 100%. though I may not be a hardcore Nintendo fan like you appear/appeared to be I do agree with you. The direction Nintendo is going can really hurt the gaming industry. Yes alot of sheep have said "how can this hurt if they are bringing in a new audience". The fact is they are making games for my mom and other non gamers then myself and since there are more non gamers then gamers out there this means these games are going to sell. Why is this bad? Well because of this more devs are going to produce games like this, and the hardcore gamers who have been playing since the SNES and back are being left out. Sure Casual gaming isn't new hell look at the PS2 they were the ones to really start bringing in the casuals, but unlike Nintendo this wasn't there main focus. Nintendo has the right mind set bringing in a new audience, but they are doing it in the wrong way. They are making it there top priority rather then something on the side. I wouldhave been ok with WiiFit if it wasn't the highlight of there show instead of SSBB or MP3. The fact that the hardcore games were casted aside for a "non-gamer" game show Nintendo's true intentions and I like the TC do not intend to back Nintendo this gen.

1.RE, Dragon Quest, Crystal Cronicles,Madden, etc...(Let's keep this about Nintendo though, these can be added to the list)

2.Zelda, the Zelda franchise never had voice acting and frankly doesn't need it. On one hand you want Nintendo to stay the same but then want them to advance in other categories. AnyNintendo hardcoregamer, understands the world of Zelda and won't attribute a staple of the series as dumbing it down.

3. Nintendo, the company is still putting out their "hardcore" titles which are for long-time fans of the franchises. You point may be true from a marketing stand point which you should understand why it's necessary but it doesn't hold up in reality. Nintendo is still giving you what you(hardcore) like even though its not on the front page of Newsweek.

Peace, I have to run.

TSCombo

Wow I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked up! All the PS3 hate threads are closed...........umcommon

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

I do not really wish to turn this into a discussion of other systems, but I believe the PSP's biggest problem was simply that it failed to be a portable gaming device. Much like the Game Gear and the Nomad, it didn't have the battery life to make it through a six hour plane ride, or the durability to survive getting kicked around in some kid's backpack. Sony built a powerful device, but they did not take into account how people would actually use it.

Too short of a battery life to survive long away from a plug socket, too bulky and fragile to be carried unprotected in a pocket or backpack, and too expensive to be bought for the younger crowd that is most often the recipient of these devices. Sony built a device for the crowd that's buying iPods, smart phones, and other portable entertainment gadgets, and put itself straight into a highly competitive market, one that simply didn't consume enough games to make it a huge market for publishers.

The PSP isn't broken, or a flop, and there are some good games on the device, it's just that it too failed to answer the question of "what is the core gamer looking for in a portable gaming device?" The answer wasn't pocket versions of PS2 titles, nor was it a substitute for an iPod, and the software sales on the PSP have indicated that. Sony failed to tap the portable *gaming* market.

That and, quite frankly, it's hard to compete with the company that has controlled portable gaming since the late 1980s, for all their blunders, Nintendo has been strong in this arena for some time. However, all of the faults and competition aside, the PSP has done remarkably well for what it is, and Sony's dent into the previously Nintendo monopolized handheld gaming market is interesting. I'm personally going to be keeping an eye on where things go with the "PSP Lite".

However, yeah, it should be easy to see how many more issues revolve around the actual portable machine itself, whereas in the console market the focus has been a great deal more on games, with the nuances of hardware still being important, but playing a much smaller role.
NorthlandMan

PSP hardware is intrinsically crap. everything from the form factor, to the load times, battery life and controls are not fit for purpose. Thus it is broken

The PSP was suppsoed to wrest control of the portable handheld market from Nintendo (quite possible seeing they did the same with consoles). The software sales are laughable compared to the DS as are the hardware sales. Thus it is a flop.

You can't lay off of criticisms of poor machines just because they "have a few good games". Hell the Wii has a few good games and has had some promising stuff announced. That doesn't mean it's standing as a serious gaming paltform is signigficantly improved.

The PSP did not "make a dent" in Nintendo's handheld dominance, if anything they exacerbated it. And i hardly think that a handheld that sold twice as much as the game gear could be considered anything less than a travesty from a company that was leading the console market all last gen.

If you wish to make a topic cricitising the mediocrity of the Wii you must be prepared to apply that to other machines. If you cannot recognise the brilliance of the DS and you downplay the failures of the PSP then your "impartial "criticisms of the Wii can not and should not be taken seriously.

Wow man you really hate the PSP. but seriously can we stop talking about the DS vs PSP(as you tend to start this fight in every thred) and can WE PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC! thank you

And when these non-gamers tire of those titles? They move onto something else. There is no "love of gaming" there, they are interested so long as Nintendo and the third parties put out the non-gamer titles, and when they bore of those, they will move on to other means of entertainment. subrosian

Gamers give gaming up every day and new people pick it up. There is no "gaming gene".

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

I do not really wish to turn this into a discussion of other systems, but I believe the PSP's biggest problem was simply that it failed to be a portable gaming device. Much like the Game Gear and the Nomad, it didn't have the battery life to make it through a six hour plane ride, or the durability to survive getting kicked around in some kid's backpack. Sony built a powerful device, but they did not take into account how people would actually use it.

Too short of a battery life to survive long away from a plug socket, too bulky and fragile to be carried unprotected in a pocket or backpack, and too expensive to be bought for the younger crowd that is most often the recipient of these devices. Sony built a device for the crowd that's buying iPods, smart phones, and other portable entertainment gadgets, and put itself straight into a highly competitive market, one that simply didn't consume enough games to make it a huge market for publishers.

The PSP isn't broken, or a flop, and there are some good games on the device, it's just that it too failed to answer the question of "what is the core gamer looking for in a portable gaming device?" The answer wasn't pocket versions of PS2 titles, nor was it a substitute for an iPod, and the software sales on the PSP have indicated that. Sony failed to tap the portable *gaming* market.

That and, quite frankly, it's hard to compete with the company that has controlled portable gaming since the late 1980s, for all their blunders, Nintendo has been strong in this arena for some time. However, all of the faults and competition aside, the PSP has done remarkably well for what it is, and Sony's dent into the previously Nintendo monopolized handheld gaming market is interesting. I'm personally going to be keeping an eye on where things go with the "PSP Lite".

However, yeah, it should be easy to see how many more issues revolve around the actual portable machine itself, whereas in the console market the focus has been a great deal more on games, with the nuances of hardware still being important, but playing a much smaller role.
NorthlandMan

PSP hardware is intrinsically crap. everything from the form factor, to the load times, battery life and controls are not fit for purpose. Thus it is broken

PSP has excellent hardward. To be able to do all it does, in that small package is really remarkable.

The PSP was suppsoed to wrest control of the portable handheld market from Nintendo (quite possible seeing they did the same with consoles). The software sales are laughable compared to the DS as are the hardware sales. Thus it is a flop.

The PSP turned a profit as far as I know, in which case it was a success.

You can't lay off of criticisms of poor machines just because they "have a few good games". Hell the Wii has a few good games and has had some promising stuff announced. That doesn't mean it's standing as a serious gaming paltform is signigficantly improved.

PSP has an excellent library of AAA games. It definately has the more hardcore games.

The PSP did not "make a dent" in Nintendo's handheld dominance, if anything they exacerbated it. And i hardly think that a handheld that sold twice as much as the game gear could be considered anything less than a travesty from a company that was leading the console market all last gen.

what they did do, was actually pose the remote possibility of a threat to Nintendo's handheld domination. They have done far more than any company before them.

If you wish to make a topic cricitising the mediocrity of the Wii you must be prepared to apply that to other machines. If you cannot recognise the brilliance of the DS and you downplay the failures of the PSP then your "impartial "criticisms of the Wii can not and should not be taken seriously.

[QUOTE="subrosian"] And when these non-gamers tire of those titles? They move onto something else. There is no "love of gaming" there, they are interested so long as Nintendo and the third parties put out the non-gamer titles, and when they bore of those, they will move on to other means of entertainment. Jandurin

Gamers give gaming up every day and new people pick it up. There is no "gaming gene".

I can't speak for all non-gamers, but I know that my mother will play a repetive bejewelled style game excessively, to the exclusion of all others for a few months, and then never play it again. Recently it was Zuma, and now it's Text Twist.

Subrosian, you're getting to the point where people get the conception that your definition of "core gamer" is someone who openly rejects several game genres that you don't have a personal fondness of.

Honestly, there's way more hardcore third-party titles coming to the Wii than many people suggest, the bad part being that for some reason they don't get anywhere the amount of attention that say, generic PS3/360 shooter #2100 does. I'd like to know more about Wii titles like No More Heroes, Swords of Legendia and Dragon Blade but unfortunately I can't find much info about them and not many people make threads about them.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

I do not really wish to turn this into a discussion of other systems, but I believe the PSP's biggest problem was simply that it failed to be a portable gaming device. Much like the Game Gear and the Nomad, it didn't have the battery life to make it through a six hour plane ride, or the durability to survive getting kicked around in some kid's backpack. Sony built a powerful device, but they did not take into account how people would actually use it.

Too short of a battery life to survive long away from a plug socket, too bulky and fragile to be carried unprotected in a pocket or backpack, and too expensive to be bought for the younger crowd that is most often the recipient of these devices. Sony built a device for the crowd that's buying iPods, smart phones, and other portable entertainment gadgets, and put itself straight into a highly competitive market, one that simply didn't consume enough games to make it a huge market for publishers.

The PSP isn't broken, or a flop, and there are some good games on the device, it's just that it too failed to answer the question of "what is the core gamer looking for in a portable gaming device?" The answer wasn't pocket versions of PS2 titles, nor was it a substitute for an iPod, and the software sales on the PSP have indicated that. Sony failed to tap the portable *gaming* market.

That and, quite frankly, it's hard to compete with the company that has controlled portable gaming since the late 1980s, for all their blunders, Nintendo has been strong in this arena for some time. However, all of the faults and competition aside, the PSP has done remarkably well for what it is, and Sony's dent into the previously Nintendo monopolized handheld gaming market is interesting. I'm personally going to be keeping an eye on where things go with the "PSP Lite".

However, yeah, it should be easy to see how many more issues revolve around the actual portable machine itself, whereas in the console market the focus has been a great deal more on games, with the nuances of hardware still being important, but playing a much smaller role.
NorthlandMan

PSP hardware is intrinsically crap. everything from the form factor, to the load times, battery life and controls are not fit for purpose. Thus it is broken

The PSP was suppsoed to wrest control of the portable handheld market from Nintendo (quite possible seeing they did the same with consoles). The software sales are laughable compared to the DS as are the hardware sales. Thus it is a flop.

You can't lay off of criticisms of poor machines just because they "have a few good games". Hell the Wii has a few good games and has had some promising stuff announced. That doesn't mean it's standing as a serious gaming paltform is signigficantly improved.

The PSP did not "make a dent" in Nintendo's handheld dominance, if anything they exacerbated it. And i hardly think that a handheld that sold twice as much as the game gear could be considered anything less than a travesty from a company that was leading the console market all last gen.

If you wish to make a topic cricitising the mediocrity of the Wii you must be prepared to apply that to other machines. If you cannot recognise the brilliance of the DS and you downplay the failures of the PSP then your "impartial "criticisms of the Wii can not and should not be taken seriously.

Subrosian, you're getting to the point where people get the conception that your definition of "core gamer" is someone who openly rejects several game genres that you don't have a personal fondness of.

Honestly, there's way more hardcore third-party titles coming to the Wii than many people suggest, the bad part being that for some reason they don't get anywhere the amount of attention that say, generic PS3/360 shooter #2100 does. I'd like to know more about Wii titles like No More Heroes, Swords of Legendia and Dragon Blade but unfortunately I can't find much info about them and not many people make threads about them.

TNT_Slug

Thats because Nintendo is not giving those games the attention they diserve, They care more about WiiFit and the casual gamers then those games you mentioned

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"] And when these non-gamers tire of those titles? They move onto something else. There is no "love of gaming" there, they are interested so long as Nintendo and the third parties put out the non-gamer titles, and when they bore of those, they will move on to other means of entertainment. Tylendal

Gamers give gaming up every day and new people pick it up. There is no "gaming gene".

I can't speak for all non-gamers, but I know that my mother will play a repetive bejewelled style game excessively, to the exclusion of all others for a few months, and then never play it again. Recently it was Zuma, and now it's Text Twist.

[QUOTE="TNT_Slug"]

Subrosian, you're getting to the point where people get the conception that your definition of "core gamer" is someone who openly rejects several game genres that you don't have a personal fondness of.

Honestly, there's way more hardcore third-party titles coming to the Wii than many people suggest, the bad part being that for some reason they don't get anywhere the amount of attention that say, generic PS3/360 shooter #2100 does. I'd like to know more about Wii titles like No More Heroes, Swords of Legendia and Dragon Blade but unfortunately I can't find much info about them and not many people make threads about them.

sparkypants

Thats because Nintendo is not giving those games the attention they diserve, They care more about WiiFit and the casual gamers then those games you mentioned

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"] And when these non-gamers tire of those titles? They move onto something else. There is no "love of gaming" there, they are interested so long as Nintendo and the third parties put out the non-gamer titles, and when they bore of those, they will move on to other means of entertainment. subrosian

Gamers give gaming up every day and new people pick it up. There is no "gaming gene".

I can't speak for all non-gamers, but I know that my mother will play a repetive bejewelled style game excessively, to the exclusion of all others for a few months, and then never play it again. Recently it was Zuma, and now it's Text Twist.

Wow. I agree with it all, but I also can't help but be excited by Galaxy and Brawl. Metroid doesn't matter to me, and neither does Halo. I mean, I know they do this, we all do. Sony did the exact same thing last year, when it launched the PS3. They didn't care about the consumer. They said "it has the Playstation name on it so it has to sell." They overpriced it to get more $, thinking it was going tosell them all.That's not a humbling attitude at all. But they became worried, and now they're paying more attention to the consumer. Nintendo won't bother, until their games and the "casual" games cease to sell.

Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
subrosian

Completely anecdotal, but here you go.

I bought my girlfriend a DS and Nintendogs last year. She was not previously a gamer although she has been minimally exposed via her brother, who is regrettably anti-social about his gaming. (always wants to play alone) She decided to purchase a Wii, mostly for Wii Sports. She has not used it recently, however, due to a complete and total addiction to Pokemon Diamond that has only recently started to wane.

So I have asked her if she's seen any games that have interested her now that she's not playing Pokemon every gaming minute, and she told me "Heavenly Sword", which I was not expecting. She is unhappy about the price of the PS3 but she definitely is interested in the game.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"] And when these non-gamers tire of those titles? They move onto something else. There is no "love of gaming" there, they are interested so long as Nintendo and the third parties put out the non-gamer titles, and when they bore of those, they will move on to other means of entertainment. TSCombo

Gamers give gaming up every day and new people pick it up. There is no "gaming gene".

I can't speak for all non-gamers, but I know that my mother will play a repetive bejewelled style game excessively, to the exclusion of all others for a few months, and then never play it again. Recently it was Zuma, and now it's Text Twist.

Wow. I agree with it all, but I also can't help but be excited by Galaxy and Brawl. Metroid doesn't matter to me, and neither does Halo. I mean, I know they do this, we all do. Sony did the exact same thing last year, when it launched the PS3. They didn't care about the consumer. They said "it has the Playstation name on it so it has to sell." They overpriced it to get more $, thinking it was going tosell them all.That's not a humbling attitude at all. But they became worried, and now they're paying more attention to the consumer. Nintendo won't bother, until their games and the "casual" games cease to sell.

evilinla

theres is your problem. The sad thing is these games will sell, in fact Im willing to bet WiiFit will beat out halo 3 in sales and this is because there are more non gamers then gamers in the world. this is then going to result in PS3/360/and 3rd party dev. creating more of these "casual" games. This will then hurt the hardcore gamers as the games we love slowly seise to exsist.

Wow, this post is still a hot topic? Must be true! LOL! No offense Nintendo. Time to face the music.iMacBot

[QUOTE="subrosian"]Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
TSCombo

Don't forget that there are a few people who have never played games, that will discover that they really like the hardcore type games. That is why it's a good thing that Nintendo is trying to bring gaming to the masses.

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"] And when these non-gamers tire of those titles? They move onto something else. There is no "love of gaming" there, they are interested so long as Nintendo and the third parties put out the non-gamer titles, and when they bore of those, they will move on to other means of entertainment. subrosian

Gamers give gaming up every day and new people pick it up. There is no "gaming gene".

I can't speak for all non-gamers, but I know that my mother will play a repetive bejewelled style game excessively, to the exclusion of all others for a few months, and then never play it again. Recently it was Zuma, and now it's Text Twist.

1. LOL, they are creating the next Metriod and StarFox and Mario :?

2. U can't compare any console to the SNES library, period.

3. Nintendo doesn't make 3rd party titles, the 3rd party companies do.

4. The Wii isn't the console of the core gamer, it's the console for gamers of all types. This feat is impossible to do without spreading yourself thin, which is a better argument than Nintendo is abandoning hardcore gamers altogether (did you see E3). That POV is totally unfounded. Maybe you like being catered to 100% instead of 70% but you are still being fed, don't pretend it's the end of the world, look at the line-up for the rest of the year.

especially through early 2008 as Nintendo turns further and further towards their new market.
subrosian

Again, my list debunks this. There are more hardcore games, than casual games that have yet to come out. There are more casual games currently, but that's because they take less time to make.

they were a good company over the past twenty years. subrosian

Just out of curiosity, what sort of company were they for the 93 years before that?

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"]Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
Tylendal

Don't forget that there are a few people who have never played games, that will discover that they really like the hardcore type games. That is why it's a good thing that Nintendo is trying to bring gaming to the masses.

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"]Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
Tylendal

Don't forget that there are a few people who have never played games, that will discover that they really like the hardcore type games. That is why it's a good thing that Nintendo is trying to bring gaming to the masses.

[QUOTE="iMacBot"]Wow, this post is still a hot topic? Must be true! LOL! No offense Nintendo. Time to face the music.subrosian

I can't believe you brought out "jilted lover" hyperbole your ownself. That is not something that I can imagine myself doing. :|

Hardcore backlash is a fantasy. The hardcore complain but as a rule they buy everything they can afford to anyway. This includes WiiFit itself - and if you carry through with your commitment to eschew Nintendo games that you want to play out of some moral principle, you will be part of a bizarre minority exception.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"]Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
subrosian

Don't forget that there are a few people who have never played games, that will discover that they really like the hardcore type games. That is why it's a good thing that Nintendo is trying to bring gaming to the masses.

So you were just born a gamer? And stop saying that Nintendo is abandoning the hardcore, becaue I've proved that they aren't.

No, I just frankly don't care as much about the handheld market. I buy whatever handheld has the most 2D Castlevanias and move on. I care a great deal about console gaming, because it's something I enjoy as the meat & potatoes of my gaming diet. The DS dominates the handheld market, whatever, that's not what this discussion is about, nor something I feel has much to do with Nintendo's focus on non-gamers over core gamers. As I've said before, sales does not equal quality, and the handheld market does not equal the console market.

As I've already demonstrated, the console and handheld markets are very different realms, what I'm concerned with here is Nintendo's focus on non-gamers, specifically with regard to the Wii. You've previously acknowledged me as being right on this issue, yet, apparently, that is contingent on acknowledging some ancillary point you've made.

I'm sorry, that's not how this works, how I feel on these issues is, quite frankly, how I feel. Console gaming is my bread-and-butter, I am more gravely concerned about a title like Brain Age or Wii Fitness becoming the showcase title for Nintendo's console than I am about the publishing these titles on a portable gaming device.

Does it still concern me on the DS? Absolutely! But that is a different market - I am still bothered with the direction Nintendo has gone with with their titles on the DS, but I am utterly devastated by the direction they've gone with their titles on the Wii. When, quite literally, their releases on both their portable and console are aimed at non-gamers, there is no place left to turn for a Nintendo franchise fix, at least for the core gamer.
subrosian

nintendo is helping the hardcore, all hardcore gamers including 360 and ps3 owners who do not even own a wii. how? by changing the perception of gaming. now that nintendo is including everyone, the mainstream does not consider hardcore gaming a social stigma. 5 years ago, if you were a hardcore gamer and tried discussing your games with nongamers you'd get a strange look and people would think you are a nerd who plays kiddy videogames (even rated M games were considered kiddy by nongamers). They'd be like, "when will you grow up and stop playing those video games". Now, nongamers respect the hobby of hardcore video games and we are no longer looked down upon.

So... the wii is good for the hardcore gaming industry even if hardcore gamers do not own one. The wii will help the success of all of the consoles - the entire industry.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"]Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
TSCombo

Don't forget that there are a few people who have never played games, that will discover that they really like the hardcore type games. That is why it's a good thing that Nintendo is trying to bring gaming to the masses.

But as Subrosian said above that precentage is small. A majority of these none gamers are only interested in simple games such as bejewled and WiiFit(also mentioned above). The PS2(which was another system that gathered casuals) did it right. They offered simple casual games like Madden or even GTA but at the same time gave focus to more hardcore games rather then those casual games. What the Wii is doing is they are showing the "non-gamer" all these simple games while at the same time pushing away there hardcore title like SSBB, they are there but they are not the highlight of the show.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]

[QUOTE="TSCombo"][QUOTE="subrosian"]Ah this is relevant! But see, does your mother ever start moving, transistioning into games like Half-Life 2, Starcraft, and Oblivion? I would fathom a guess that she does not. The big claim that many Nintendo supporters are making is that these "non-gamers", the audience consuming non-traditional games, will become traditional gamers - that Nintendo is doing this shift to recruit more gamers to the core.

I have suggested that there is no evidence of this, and frankly, the proof might very well lie in the large community of Bejeweled, Solitaire, and Online Poker addicts, who never feel a need to pick up the controller and start exploring Hyrule. They're a different demographic, and to suggest that any one game can meet their needs, the needs of casual gamers, and the needs of hardcore gamers (even assuming everyone within these demographics had the same taste) is absolutely ridiculous.
Tylendal

Don't forget that there are a few people who have never played games, that will discover that they really like the hardcore type games. That is why it's a good thing that Nintendo is trying to bring gaming to the masses.

So you were just born a gamer? And stop saying that Nintendo is abandoning the hardcore, becaue I've proved that they aren't.

Actually yes I was. This may not apply to everyone but my dad bought a SNES the day I was born, I was surrounded by games since birth, and Iv been playing since I was 2 1/2-3 years old XD

SMG will be the easiest Mario yet because Nintendo will also want to to cater for the casuals, same with metriod, the next zelda and every other big Nintendo franchise character game to come. We are already hearing that the next mario cart has very simple controlz so that "everybody" can play. I care about the growth of the industry but Nintendo should not forget the ones who have carried them till now.
funolopy

You make it sound as if Double Dash and its predecessors were the height of complexity. Also, there is good evidance that Galaxy is going to be one of the hardest Mario games ever.

Wow....man...

I didn't even know i felt the same way as this post until I finished reading it. A part of me is actually quite sad all of a sudden looking over at my entertainment setup with all my Nintendo systems all still hooked up and working.

Nintendo is back on the horse...I should be feeling great as a sheep, but my inner child is just shaking his head like something is wrong...very very wrong.

*Great post man...Great Great Post.*

MY VOTE FOR THE GREATEST POST EVER ON GAMESPOT FORUM-

ALL TIME GREAT-

THE BEST WRITTEN, THE MOST INTELLIGENT PIECE OF WRITING I'VE SEEN FROM ANY GAMER ON ANY FORUM.

MY VOTE FOR THE GREATEST POST EVER ON GAMESPOT FORUM-

ALL TIME GREAT-

THE BEST WRITTEN, THE MOST INTELLIGENT PIECE OF WRITING I'VE SEEN FROM ANY GAMER ON ANY FORUM.

funolopy

Except for the fact that it's completely false.

.

.

Wii games published by Nintendo.

Hardcore games announced

1. Twilight Princess
2. Fire Emblem
3. Super Paper Mario
4. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
5. Super Mario Galaxy
6. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
7. Fire Emblem
8. Battalion Wars 2
9. Disaster: Day of Crisis
10. Mario Kart Wii
11. Generic Kirby game
12. Project H.A.M.M.E.R. (maybe)
13. Mario Strikers Charged

Casual games announced

1. Wii Sports
2. Wii Play
3. WarioWare: Smooth Moves
4. Mario Party 8
5. Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
6. Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
7. Endless Ocean
8. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
9. Wii Fit
10. Wii Music
11. Animal Crossing Wii
12. Pokemon Battle Revolution
13. Excite Truck

damn i can't see why you are leaving nintendo, mainly because you assume they forgot about the core gamer, nintendo deserted the real gamer, and are throwing all the franchises down the trash. I can't believe mostly everybody is agreeing with you.

pause and think for a second, nintendo did the impossible they have created a console which core gamers like me, and non gamers like old people and moms can play. You and me can say that we save up our money for the wii ,or maybe we got it as a birthday or christmas present. For younger kids who don't have jobs, they begged their parents for it. Agree with this fact the non gamer wasn't waiting on line for the wii, neither did they preorder it, because they are simply the nongamers who don't have interest in video games. nintendo launched the wii and we all know how that went it was a worldwide phenomenon. Nintendo knows that the nongamers tried it out either by their own or most likely by force from the core gamers. Nintendo tapped the market and like great buisness men the put products out for them, FOR THEM not us, not the core gamer. They don't expect the core gamer to be lining up for brain age, HELL NO. Clearly they did'nt desert us. they didn't dropped development for the big three and just said "Well i think we would make more on the non gamers so lets just focus everything on them" Reggie said himself we don't need the nongamers to be in 1st place. they know that without the core gamers they will just fail, what mom would want to play the wii if their son or daughter thinks its lame and a waste. And you say they're screwing the franchises, yes LOZTP wasn't that hard as LOZOOT,it wasn't dumb easy, it was challenging, Last i remember i didn't spend 60 hours of my life playing OOT i was playing LOZTP. SSBB, i honestly would have been happy if they just upped the grafics add new stages new characters with online. But there putting a whole lot of new material that i would have never thought of. Day to night. smash tokens, assist trophies, off the top of my head thats all i remember right now, they are really making this game to be skyrocketing way higher than our expectations.SSBB is a core game not meant for nongamers. i would have never thought of mario in space, they came up with and using the wiimote and nunchucks in Mp3 aint good, what the hell is wrong with you. stop THINK

[QUOTE="funolopy"]

MY VOTE FOR THE GREATEST POST EVER ON GAMESPOT FORUM-

ALL TIME GREAT-

THE BEST WRITTEN, THE MOST INTELLIGENT PIECE OF WRITING I'VE SEEN FROM ANY GAMER ON ANY FORUM.

Tylendal

Except for the fact that it's completely false.

.

.

Wii games published by Nintendo.

Hardcore games announced

1. Twilight Princess
2. Fire Emblem
3. Super Paper Mario
4. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
5. Super Mario Galaxy
6. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
7. Fire Emblem
8. Battalion Wars 2
9. Disaster: Day of Crisis
10. Mario Kart Wii
11. Generic Kirby game
12. Project H.A.M.M.E.R. (maybe)
13. Mario Strikers Charged

Casual games announced

1. Wii Sports
2. Wii Play
3. WarioWare: Smooth Moves
4. Mario Party 8
5. Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
6. Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
7. Endless Ocean
8. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
9. Wii Fit
10. Wii Music
11. Animal Crossing Wii
12. Pokemon Battle Revolution
13. Excite Truck

How many people other than bread & butter Nintendo fans really want those though? I already own two but the only other one I'm really interested in is BWii. This is obviously my ''opinion'' of course, which apparently is the overriding factor of all things in this place.

So you were just born a gamer? And stop saying that Nintendo is abandoning the hardcore, becaue I've proved that they aren't.

Tylendal

holy crap i actually took the time to read that and i agree
Gen007

@Tylendal: you listed fire emblem twice, and MP3 looks a bit disappointing imomwa

Wow....man...

I didn't even know i felt the same way as this post until I finished reading it. A part of me is actually quite sad all of a sudden looking over at my entertainment setup with all my Nintendo systems all still hooked up and working.

Nintendo is back on the horse...I should be feeling great as a sheep, but my inner child is just shaking his head like something is wrong...very very wrong.

*Great post man...Great Great Post.*

Mcgreggers

[QUOTE="funolopy"]

MY VOTE FOR THE GREATEST POST EVER ON GAMESPOT FORUM-

ALL TIME GREAT-

THE BEST WRITTEN, THE MOST INTELLIGENT PIECE OF WRITING I'VE SEEN FROM ANY GAMER ON ANY FORUM.

Tylendal

Except for the fact that it's completely false.

.

.

Wii games published by Nintendo.

Hardcore games announced

1. Twilight Princess
2. Fire Emblem
3. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
4. Super Mario Galaxy
5. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
6. Battalion Wars 2 (maybe)
7. Disaster: Day of Crisis(maybe)
8. Project H.A.M.M.E.R. (maybe)

Casual games announced

1. Wii Sports
2. Wii Play
3. WarioWare: Smooth Moves
4. Mario Party 8
5. Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
6. Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
7. Endless Ocean
8. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
9. Wii Fit
10. Wii Music
11. Animal Crossing Wii
12. Pokemon Battle Revolution
13. Excite Truck
14. Mario Kart Wii
15. Mario Strikers Charged
16. Generic Kirby game

Fixed It:D

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="funolopy"]

MY VOTE FOR THE GREATEST POST EVER ON GAMESPOT FORUM-

ALL TIME GREAT-

THE BEST WRITTEN, THE MOST INTELLIGENT PIECE OF WRITING I'VE SEEN FROM ANY GAMER ON ANY FORUM.

sparkypants

Except for the fact that it's completely false.

.

.

Wii games published by Nintendo.

Hardcore games announced

1. Twilight Princess
2. Fire Emblem
3. Super Paper Mario
4. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
5. Super Mario Galaxy
6. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
7. Fire Emblem
8. Battalion Wars 2
9. Disaster: Day of Crisis
10. Mario Kart Wii
11. Generic Kirby game
12. Project H.A.M.M.E.R. (maybe)
13. Mario Strikers Charged

Casual games announced

1. Wii Sports
2. Wii Play
3. WarioWare: Smooth Moves
4. Mario Party 8
5. Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
6. Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
7. Endless Ocean
8. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
9. Wii Fit
10. Wii Music
11. Animal Crossing Wii
12. Pokemon Battle Revolution
13. Excite Truck

Fixed It:D

Re-Fixed It:D

How can you consider Kirby casual. Also, Mario Kart and Mario Strikers are far from pick-up-and-play.