Good-Bye Nintendo

[QUOTE="donaldo1989"]

[QUOTE="ganon42"]Its sad not seeing zelda, one of my most favourite series leap in graphics but instead get tacked on with a remote controller. I dont see how wii was a revolution. I have still not seen a reason to why the new remote control is better then a regular controller. Wiifit? What kind of crap is this!? What a poor E3 show nintendo had. At least sony and MS were not gloating about getting grandmas to play the wii.subrosian

dont worry about zelda yet, since zelda tp was a gc port. Im sure there will be another zelda on the wii, but I hope they decide not to dumb it down.

dont dismiss PH just because it has touch screen controls.

[QUOTE="bexarath"]So let me see if I can summarize that wall of text: "Nintendo is ruining gaming because they don't make games that I like." Also, great implication that your tastes = taste of all 'hardcore' gamers. Ego much?subrosian

I do not see *a single* response here saying "I prefer Wii Fitness, Wii Sports, Wii Play, Warioware, and Mario Paryt 8 to Metroid Prime, Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Super Smash Bros Melee, and Star Fox 64".

subrosian

Because I don't think anybody who is interested enough in games to come here actually can, its a sad state of affairs. This E3 has gotten me annoyed enough that I've done one extremely long blog post and another that isn't exactly concise either.

Look at the E3 discussion threads, look elsewhere at the discussions people are having about it. Most people who aren't unbelievably loyal to the memory of the NES believe they have failed us..because they have.

So you either have people denying it or somehow blaming Sony for these problems despite Nintendo's pioneering of certain non-gamer paradigms. Like I've said before I would really like to believe in Nintendo but I can look at their lineup and immediately rule out 4/5ths of everything that is coming out for the system its a darn shame.

but you act as if mini-games and such are the only future titles the wii has. It will bring games to all gamers alike' a few party games now and then wouldnt hurt.mexicangordo

Thats because they are making up pretty much every new game announcement. Take a random sampling of ten Wii game announcements that occured within the last six months and probably 8-9 out of the ten will be mini-game collections, cheap Wii Fit type of games or movie-based games.

It is just not Nintendo who is doing games like Wii Fittness. If you really wan't to think about it blame Sony not Nintendo. Sony started the whole casual freindlly line of games with Singstar and Eye toy games. The only thing Nintendo is doing is improving on what they started. Some Non-games have become blockbusters and we call them games. I'm talking about Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and DDR.

Don't lay this all on the shoulders of Nintendo they are just taking advantage of an opening Sony showed the industry. Yes they are focusing a great deal on casuals but who can blame them. They were getting killed trying to compete in the hardcore market against Microsoft and Sony so they moved their gameplan on something those two companies don't focus on that very often.

books83

So your blaiming this on sony now? At least the ps2 was a leap from the ps1. At least the ps2 had amazing games the first 8 months of its release. I see the wii now and it lacks games. Come on, How much money have you sheep spent on the VC?

[QUOTE="funnymario"][QUOTE="Caviglia"]

Try to be a little more concise next time.

Firstly I must say that these cries of 'Nintendo is ruining gaming!' are wholly reactionary and short-sighted, the current 'Blue Ocean' strategy being pursued by Nintendo irrefutably benefits the whole gaming industry in the long-term. That is where most gamers fail, be they ordinary folks like yourself or 'professional' critics and journalists- we fail to see things in the long-term. Never mind the next year, never mind the next five years. We should be looking towards ten years into the future. A vastly expanded audience now means a greater population of 'core' gamers in the future, these people bring new perspectives, ideas and modes of operation to the industry.

Nintendo are not abandoning the 'hardcore' audience, we still have the same traditional franchises such as Metoid, Zelda, Mario and Smash Bros., furthermore these are all within a year or so of launch. Then there are the untapped franchises such as F-Zero, Donkey Kong, Star Fox,Pikmin, Kirby, Animal Crossing, 1080 and Wave Race. Nintendo are not giving up on the hardcore they are simply shifting their focus, they continue to churn out the same quality titles we all expect; there is just a greater emphasis on the non-gamer. These concessions to the non-gamer are disheartening to the hardcore but ultimately necessary for the industry as a whole, perhaps if other developers also aided in this audience expansion then Nintendo would not have to make such monumental leaps alone.

When I hear Reggie stating that Nintendo wants to compete with all forms of leisure entertainment then that is something radical, whether the effects are readily evident to most is another question. We already see in Japan television audiences waning as they shift to Wii, similarly Wii Fit could reduce gym memberships as a cheaper, more fun form of exercise. The Wii and DS have the capacity to drastically alter the public perception of video-games, if that means a greater acceptance of our hobby as something that is a part of everyday life; then I am content. I realise it is frustrating to feel sidelined as a core gamer but so long as you take a long term perspective these upheavals are much less intimidating.

Caviglia

Who's going to care in 10 years?? If you're constantly looking ahead, you can never see whats right in front of you. If you don't start looking in the present you're going to trip and *boom* WiiFIT

Because in 10 years a significant proportion of the current influx of non-gamers will have matured into core gamers creating a bigger demand for more 'hardcore' games in addition to new ideas and perspectives that will shape these games. Nintendo's moves at present have the short-term aim of expanding the audience (and gaining a whole lot of profit) but the real interest lies in the outcome a decade or so down the line. Of course you must also examine the tactical actions of Nintendo but too many people here are failing to see the forest for the trees. I acknowledge that in the short-term experiencedcore gamers, like myself, are going to feel disillusioned at the tectonic shifts in our hobby; I am sure many will give up on Nintendo and so be it. However they will be back in ten years time.

I was wrong, just as you are now.

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]Nintendo may not do Anything at all to cater to hardcore gamers, and it wouldn't hurt us one bit. I honestly don't see the problem.
As there become more and more people capable and willing to get involved with games, the amount of core gamers will rise, and the amount of developers and gaming talent too.
funnymario

calm down, calm down. stop exaggerating this whole topic is "crystal balling" anyway. we have no idea what is going to happen next year or the year after.

[QUOTE="funnymario"][QUOTE="Caviglia"]

Try to be a little more concise next time.

Firstly I must say that these cries of 'Nintendo is ruining gaming!' are wholly reactionary and short-sighted, the current 'Blue Ocean' strategy being pursued by Nintendo irrefutably benefits the whole gaming industry in the long-term. That is where most gamers fail, be they ordinary folks like yourself or 'professional' critics and journalists- we fail to see things in the long-term. Never mind the next year, never mind the next five years. We should be looking towards ten years into the future. A vastly expanded audience now means a greater population of 'core' gamers in the future, these people bring new perspectives, ideas and modes of operation to the industry.

Nintendo are not abandoning the 'hardcore' audience, we still have the same traditional franchises such as Metoid, Zelda, Mario and Smash Bros., furthermore these are all within a year or so of launch. Then there are the untapped franchises such as F-Zero, Donkey Kong, Star Fox,Pikmin, Kirby, Animal Crossing, 1080 and Wave Race. Nintendo are not giving up on the hardcore they are simply shifting their focus, they continue to churn out the same quality titles we all expect; there is just a greater emphasis on the non-gamer. These concessions to the non-gamer are disheartening to the hardcore but ultimately necessary for the industry as a whole, perhaps if other developers also aided in this audience expansion then Nintendo would not have to make such monumental leaps alone.

When I hear Reggie stating that Nintendo wants to compete with all forms of leisure entertainment then that is something radical, whether the effects are readily evident to most is another question. We already see in Japan television audiences waning as they shift to Wii, similarly Wii Fit could reduce gym memberships as a cheaper, more fun form of exercise. The Wii and DS have the capacity to drastically alter the public perception of video-games, if that means a greater acceptance of our hobby as something that is a part of everyday life; then I am content. I realise it is frustrating to feel sidelined as a core gamer but so long as you take a long term perspective these upheavals are much less intimidating.

Caviglia

Who's going to care in 10 years?? If you're constantly looking ahead, you can never see whats right in front of you. If you don't start looking in the present you're going to trip and *boom* WiiFIT

Because in 10 years a significant proportion of the current influx of non-gamers will have matured into core gamers creating a bigger demand for more 'hardcore' games in addition to new ideas and perspectives that will shape these games. Nintendo's moves at present have the short-term aim of expanding the audience (and gaining a whole lot of profit) but the real interest lies in the outcome a decade or so down the line. Of course you must also examine the tactical actions of Nintendo but too many people here are failing to see the forest for the trees. I acknowledge that in the short-term experiencedcore gamers, like myself, are going to feel disillusioned at the tectonic shifts in our hobby; I am sure many will give up on Nintendo and so be it. However they will be back in ten years time.

[QUOTE="funnymario"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]Nintendo may not do Anything at all to cater to hardcore gamers, and it wouldn't hurt us one bit. I honestly don't see the problem.
As there become more and more people capable and willing to get involved with games, the amount of core gamers will rise, and the amount of developers and gaming talent too.
samusarmada

calm down, calm down. stop exaggerating this whole topic is "crystal balling" anyway. we have no idea what is going to happen next year or the year after.

[QUOTE="kipknots"]

-cut because there are no spaces-

subrosian

A Nintendo defender using Opera, that's absurd!

[QUOTE="books83"]

It is just not Nintendo who is doing games like Wii Fittness. If you really wan't to think about it blame Sony not Nintendo. Sony started the whole casual freindlly line of games with Singstar and Eye toy games. The only thing Nintendo is doing is improving on what they started. Some Non-games have become blockbusters and we call them games. I'm talking about Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and DDR.

Don't lay this all on the shoulders of Nintendo they are just taking advantage of an opening Sony showed the industry. Yes they are focusing a great deal on casuals but who can blame them. They were getting killed trying to compete in the hardcore market against Microsoft and Sony so they moved their gameplan on something those two companies don't focus on that very often.

ganon42

So your blaiming this on sony now? At least the ps2 was a leap from the ps1. At least the ps2 had amazing games the first 8 months of its release. I see the wii now and it yet lacks games. Come on, How much money have you sheep spent on the VC?

I see you didn't deny the fact that it was Sony that started the casual freindly line of games.

[QUOTE="donaldo1989"]

[QUOTE="ganon42"]Its sad not seeing zelda, one of my most favourite series leap in graphics but instead get tacked on with a remote controller. I dont see how wii was a revolution. I have still not seen a reason to why the new remote control is better then a regular controller. Wiifit? What kind of crap is this!? What a poor E3 show nintendo had. At least sony and MS were not gloating about getting grandmas to play the wii.subrosian

dont worry about zelda yet, since zelda tp was a gc port. Im sure there will be another zelda on the wii, but I hope they decide not to dumb it down.

The thing is Phantom Hourglass retains all the elements of the franchise that the fans love whilst making the interface more accessible, this is clear in Japan where Zelda was becoming increasingly unpopular until Phantom Hourglass rejuvenated the series. It made an aging formula fresh for veterans whilst creating a whole new generation of Zelda fans. Phantom Hourglass has been given a phenomenal reception from the gaming press both in Japan and in the West, indicating that the new controls are not at the detriment of the timeless Zelda gameplay.

[QUOTE="kipknots"]

-cut because there are no spaces-

subrosian

[QUOTE="samusarmada"]

[QUOTE="funnymario"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]Nintendo may not do Anything at all to cater to hardcore gamers, and it wouldn't hurt us one bit. I honestly don't see the problem.
As there become more and more people capable and willing to get involved with games, the amount of core gamers will rise, and the amount of developers and gaming talent too.
funnymario

calm down, calm down. stop exaggerating this whole topic is "crystal balling" anyway. we have no idea what is going to happen next year or the year after.

:shock:

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="bexarath"]So let me see if I can summarize that wall of text: "Nintendo is ruining gaming because they don't make games that I like." Also, great implication that your tastes = taste of all 'hardcore' gamers. Ego much?mexicangordo

[QUOTE="samusarmada"]

[QUOTE="funnymario"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]Nintendo may not do Anything at all to cater to hardcore gamers, and it wouldn't hurt us one bit. I honestly don't see the problem.
As there become more and more people capable and willing to get involved with games, the amount of core gamers will rise, and the amount of developers and gaming talent too.
funnymario

calm down, calm down. stop exaggerating this whole topic is "crystal balling" anyway. we have no idea what is going to happen next year or the year after.

You didn't read my post at all. Nintendo doesn't have to stop. I don't care what they do. They can go find alien species and shove controllers up their bums. Fine. It's not like we will run out of developers interested in making games for the core. Look if that happens, system wars will make our own development team ok? :P

You didn't read my post at all. Nintendo doesn't have to stop. I don't care what they do. They can go find alien species and shove controllers up their bums. Fine. It's not like there we will run out of developers interested in making games for the core. Look if that happens, system wars will make our own development team ok? :P

KungfuKitten

*plops asleep*

I see you didn't deny the fact that it was Sony that started the casual freindly line of games.

books83

I will, its bullcrap they had all kinds of utterly casual titles on the Atari and if you want to bring companies still making hardware into the fold the SNES Edutainment titles (Mario is Missing being the most famous) are pretty much the epitome of casual gaming.

The whole blame Sony thing is very reminescent of the blame Clinton spiel that rightwingers observe almost religiously and doesn't hold up any better under scrutiny.

[QUOTE="donaldo1989"]

[QUOTE="ganon42"]Its sad not seeing zelda, one of my most favourite series leap in graphics but instead get tacked on with a remote controller. I dont see how wii was a revolution. I have still not seen a reason to why the new remote control is better then a regular controller. Wiifit? What kind of crap is this!? What a poor E3 show nintendo had. At least sony and MS were not gloating about getting grandmas to play the wii.subrosian

dont worry about zelda yet, since zelda tp was a gc port. Im sure there will be another zelda on the wii, but I hope they decide not to dumb it down.

phantom hourglass actually works quite well and is a good throwback to the old zelda games. But I remember that statement ages ago being said, lets just hope zelda doesnt turn into a minigame

But seriously can someone explain to me what has happened to metroid prime 3, cos I dont have a clue what everyone is talking about the game being dumbed down

Hell-of-a-post, and its the truth. But I'm surprised to see this wasn't apparent when it came out. All the clues were there.

Puttin' out a box that's graphics won't compare to the 3 or 360. And "making games for the "casual-gamer"". When they made all of the Wii sports games, bowling n all that, I could see it's only for young children and adults who wanna get fit. And WiiFitness was kind of the icing on the cake.

I mean, it's bad when you recommend the Wii to your mom because she wants to workout.

[QUOTE="bexarath"]So let me see if I can summarize that wall of text: "Nintendo is ruining gaming because they don't make games that I like." Also, great implication that your tastes = taste of all 'hardcore' gamers. Ego much?subrosian

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="donaldo1989"]

[QUOTE="ganon42"]Its sad not seeing zelda, one of my most favourite series leap in graphics but instead get tacked on with a remote controller. I dont see how wii was a revolution. I have still not seen a reason to why the new remote control is better then a regular controller. Wiifit? What kind of crap is this!? What a poor E3 show nintendo had. At least sony and MS were not gloating about getting grandmas to play the wii.Caviglia

dont worry about zelda yet, since zelda tp was a gc port. Im sure there will be another zelda on the wii, but I hope they decide not to dumb it down.

The thing is Phantom Hourglass retains all the elements of the franchise that the fans love whilst making the interface more accessible, this is clear in Japan where Zelda was becoming increasingly unpopular until Phantom Hourglass rejuvenated the series. It made an aging formula fresh for veterans whilst creating a whole new generation of Zelda fans. Phantom Hourglass has been given a phenomenal reception from the gaming press both in Japan and in the West, indicating that the new controls are not at the detriment of the timeless Zelda gameplay.

[QUOTE="ganon42"][QUOTE="books83"]

It is just not Nintendo who is doing games like Wii Fittness. If you really wan't to think about it blame Sony not Nintendo. Sony started the whole casual freindlly line of games with Singstar and Eye toy games. The only thing Nintendo is doing is improving on what they started. Some Non-games have become blockbusters and we call them games. I'm talking about Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and DDR.

Don't lay this all on the shoulders of Nintendo they are just taking advantage of an opening Sony showed the industry. Yes they are focusing a great deal on casuals but who can blame them. They were getting killed trying to compete in the hardcore market against Microsoft and Sony so they moved their gameplan on something those two companies don't focus on that very often.

books83

So your blaiming this on sony now? At least the ps2 was a leap from the ps1. At least the ps2 had amazing games the first 8 months of its release. I see the wii now and it yet lacks games. Come on, How much money have you sheep spent on the VC?

I see you didn't deny the fact that it was Sony that started the casual freindly line of games.

Actually it wasnt sony, it was Nintendo.........on the nes ;) You said casuals. casuals=people who play popular hardcore games ( Gta, Madden). Nongamers= your mother playing wii-fit, your grandfather playing barin age. Nintendo is getting non-gamers. Nongamers and causals, big diffrence.

No, they won't. In fact, Nintendo has *never claimed that* and neither has anyone else. Had you read any of the books on the market about Blue Ocean, you would understand that once you take that leap, you don't go back. As long as the "non-gamer" market remains lucrative, Nintendo will cater to them.

Nintendo's excuses of "growing the industry" are about growing their wallet. That is what they mean, and are concerned with.
What you are trying to claim is that if "Jane Fonda's workout video" becomes succesful, that the company making it will decide to make horror movies. Why? Because the Jane Fonda workout audience, in ten years, will suddenly be interested in horror movies.

I don't buy that for a second, and anyone who does is buying into the lies Nintendo is telling to keep at least a fraction of the lucrative hardcore market on their side. I'm sorry, I know how hard this is to accept, I said the same thing when Dreamcast failed about Sega - "sega will be back in ten years time, they will keep making great games."

I was wrong, just as you are now.

subrosian

That workout video analogy is seriously flawed...Of course Nintendo only care about profits when it comes to the crux, they are a multinational corporation just like Sony and Microsoft. All the major developers care about profits, only smaller, autonomous and independent studios can truly claim their products to be a 'labour of love'. I also fail to grasp the parallels with Sega, Nintendo are not a company on the downfall, more importantly they are still making great games; with Sega that was, and is, questionable. Nintendo have not 'gone' as Sega did, they are still here with the same franchises; they hve just diversified. You should clamber back up your ivory tower if you believe new gamers are a threat.

I would like to pose a question 'How did you become involved in gaming?' and importantly 'When did you become involved in gaming, and with which game?'. To deny that a sizeable proportion of non-gamers will not delve deeper into the industry is completely dismissive, that would be akin to saying 'I started playing with Super Mario Bros. so there is no way I will ever play an FPS'.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="bexarath"]So let me see if I can summarize that wall of text: "Nintendo is ruining gaming because they don't make games that I like." Also, great implication that your tastes = taste of all 'hardcore' gamers. Ego much?bexarath

[QUOTE="Caviglia"][QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="donaldo1989"]

[QUOTE="ganon42"]Its sad not seeing zelda, one of my most favourite series leap in graphics but instead get tacked on with a remote controller. I dont see how wii was a revolution. I have still not seen a reason to why the new remote control is better then a regular controller. Wiifit? What kind of crap is this!? What a poor E3 show nintendo had. At least sony and MS were not gloating about getting grandmas to play the wii.subrosian

dont worry about zelda yet, since zelda tp was a gc port. Im sure there will be another zelda on the wii, but I hope they decide not to dumb it down.

The thing is Phantom Hourglass retains all the elements of the franchise that the fans love whilst making the interface more accessible, this is clear in Japan where Zelda was becoming increasingly unpopular until Phantom Hourglass rejuvenated the series. It made an aging formula fresh for veterans whilst creating a whole new generation of Zelda fans. Phantom Hourglass has been given a phenomenal reception from the gaming press both in Japan and in the West, indicating that the new controls are not at the detriment of the timeless Zelda gameplay.

I know it is easy to think the worst but a change in zelda may not actually lead to a complete destruction of zelda. Link to the past to zelda ocarina of time was the biggest change in zelda history but its turned out good. And I hope I am right but I dont think nintendo is willing to destroy one of their strongest franchiases.

No, the theme of this thread should be rightly changed to: "Nintendo is hurting microsoft and sony."

Gaming? Not so much...:lol:

This may shock you, but Nintendo IS a business. The past 2 gens they've tried to cater to the hardcore market, but that didn't work.bexarath

It worked well enough for them to profit to the tune of billions each generation and thats net profit if you are interested. They didn't cater to the hardcore market with the N64 after a point and they definitely didn't with the GCN, thats absurd to say.

Nintendo has bastardised Mario so much that I'm sick of it. I don't see Sony releasing installments of God of War Kart, God of War Baseball, God of War Party Paper God of War, Baby Kratos, Baby Ares, Baby Athena. And so on and so forth.
When Nintendo lower's the average gamers' standards so low that a game like Mario appears "fun," it isn't very hard to "keep people happy."

I do not see meaning, complexity, depth, intellectual purpose, or "fun" in video games these days. The potential is there, but warped consumer demand corrupts it.
I see people so mistaken that they actually embrace this horrible shortcoming as a great product and the "progression" of gaming as a whole. And then, finally, it becomes out-right disgusting when I think about Nintendo's financial plans and understand why they are doing what they are.

Do you... work for Nintendo? Because everything you've typed here sounds like a Nintendo press release. Rather than get into a four hour conversation about haptics, input devices, and the inherient impression of a touch-based interface over pure-digital controls, why don't we leave it at this:

Nintendo has said Twilight Princess was a darker, essentially more "hardcore" title - and that Twilight Princess would be the last title of its kind. Nintendo has said the next Zelda title would be differnet. I'm sorry, I don't buy into Nintendo's press releases anymore. I gave them a huge opportunity with the Revolution / Wii - I accepted that hardware did not make the games, and lately I've been defending them, giving them a chance to show that they still care about the longtime gamer.

And you know what? I'm done, and frankly, so are many other Nintendo supporters, it is clear where Nintendo's bread is buttered. It hurts seeing characters I've loved for years take on such guises, but the reality is this is about the games, something Nintendo is no longer delivering.
subrosian

No, I am just an egalitarian soul who hates to see anything, be it art, music or video-games becoming the preserve of a select few. You criticise Twilight Princess yet at the same time you espouse the ideals of continuing on the traditional path, you must be in a quandry. You evidently realise that thecore mechanics of many tried and tested franchises are ageing and stagnating yet at the same time you criticise games like Phantom Hourglass that aim to get us out of this rut. As far as I can see the support for the hardcore is still there: Zelda, Metroid, Mario, Smash Bros. et cetera. However it has been overshadowed by the new direction.

What direction would you like to see for the games industry?

[QUOTE="bexarath"][QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="bexarath"]So let me see if I can summarize that wall of text: "Nintendo is ruining gaming because they don't make games that I like." Also, great implication that your tastes = taste of all 'hardcore' gamers. Ego much?subrosian

Nintendo has bastardised Mario so much that I'm sick of it. I don't see Sony releasing installments of God of War Kart, God of War Baseball, God of War Party Paper God of War, Baby Kratos, Baby Ares, Baby Athena. And so on and so forth.
When Nintendo lower's the average gamers' standards so low that a game like Mario appears "fun," it isn't very hard to "keep people happy."

I do not see meaning, complexity, depth, intellectual purpose, or "fun" in video games these days. The potential is there, but warped consumer demand corrupts it.
I see people so mistaken that they actually embrace this horrible shortcoming as a great product and the "progression" of gaming as a whole. And then, finally, it becomes out-right disgusting when I think about Nintendo's financial plans and understand why they are doing what they are.

PullTheTricker

Those mario spin-offs are designed for multiplayer entertainment since the traditional mario game is a single player game. Some people do enjoy the mario spin-offs so why should they be stopped because someone else doesnt enjoy them.

The TC is making a point that he feels that the games he enjoys are starting to become non existant and that is a bad thing and I also agree that games that peopleenjoy should not have to disappearin order to please other people.

I enjoymario kart, mario strikers, paper marios and enjoy playing party withmy sisters and well as tons of other games mainly in the RPG/adventure genre and as long as people out there enjoy them, there is no reason to get "sick" of them

Nintendo has bastardised Mario so much that I'm sick of it. I don't see Sony releasing installments of God of War Kart, God of War Baseball, God of War Party Paper God of War, Baby Kratos, Baby Ares, Baby Athena. And so on and so forth.
When Nintendo lower's the average gamers' standards so low that a game like Mario appears "fun," it isn't very hard to "keep people happy."

I do not see meaning, complexity, depth, intellectual purpose, or "fun" in video games these days. The potential is there, but warped consumer demand corrupts it.
I see people so mistaken that they actually embrace this horrible shortcoming as a great product and the "progression" of gaming as a whole. And then, finally, it becomes out-right disgusting when I think about Nintendo's financial plans and understand why they are doing what they are.

PullTheTricker

You shouldn't look into gaming for meaning...video gaming is part of the ENTERTAINMENT industry, if you like art go visit an art gallery or study some renowned literature, all that is much deeper and more meaningful than shooting guys with a gun in some virtual world that entails a really corny storyline of aliens invading earth yet again. You gaming purists sicken me. Way too conservative. Do not fear change. Hardcore gaming has been going the way of hollywood for too long. Big budget crap covered with a shiny coat of paint to make it seem deeper than it actually is.

Nintendo gives developers a chance to try new and unheard of things without risking bankruptcy, and all the purists suddenly go bananas.

And you call yourself a hardcore gamer? You have a pc, you don't need a good graphics card...play this:

Nintendo has bastardised Mario so much that I'm sick of it. I don't see Sony releasing installments of God of War Kart, God of War Baseball, God of War Party Paper God of War, Baby Kratos, Baby Ares, Baby Athena. And so on and so forth.
When Nintendo lower's the average gamers' standards so low that a game like Mario appears "fun," it isn't very hard to "keep people happy."

I do not see meaning, complexity, depth, intellectual purpose, or "fun" in video games these days. The potential is there, but warped consumer demand corrupts it.
I see people so mistaken that they actually embrace this horrible shortcoming as a great product and the "progression" of gaming as a whole. And then, finally, it becomes out-right disgusting when I think about Nintendo's financial plans and understand why they are doing what they are.

PullTheTricker

edit: Important sidenote, they didn't limit the developers in any way, except for the way they were always forced to progress. The developers now have the biggest chance ever to improve.

Wow. Just wow. You don't see anything egoistic about expecting a company to abandon all ambitions of profit and success just to make a game or two that you, personally, might enjoy?bexarath

You are still using this bullcrap strawman to try and prove a point. Nintendo through their business model quite literally can not lose profit unless they are so far off base that they don't even recoup the development costs through sales of a combination of hardware and software because they profit off of both and to considerably larger degrees from the outset than either Sony or Microsoft.

In this respect they have always been far more profit oriented, they were doing just fine if they had actually put a DVD drive in the GCN they might have been more successful but they stuck with their proprietary (and thus more expensive for developers) disc format which was not only more suspectible to destruction from scratches but smaller.

Nintendo has only ever lost money on one project and I'm not even certain about that one which is of course the Virtual Boy..a system which failed to sell even a million units.

So don't give me this: "Oh you are condemning Nintendo to be unprofitable and die if they don't utterly ignore the traditional gamers." its a crock, a falsity, **** for brains argument which holds no water.

nintendo is making gaming mainstream like reading, watching movies and listening to music. it's expanding the gaming community while still making hardcore games.

galaxay will be the best patform game by FAR. your mom is not gonna play metroid 3.

But it's not for insecure people, that's true. it's for visionairy people that love games.

BYE

Oh my god, just a few casual titles and WiiFit and you get 1,000's of posts about how people are leaving Nintendo (heh, it's coming from people who didn't like them in the first place...). E3 isn't the centre stage of how everything's gonna turn out, if anything, E3 as a whole wascrap this year. Barely any new announcements from either side.

Nintendo could've have had a better E3, if they showed the new Metroid Prime Trailer, the SMG pics+ Trailer etc.

Speaking of WiiFit and all these training games in general. They're not new. The DS has truck loads of Edutainment games, Big Brain Academy, Brain Training, Flash Focus, My Word Coach, My Life Coach, My French Coach, My Spanish Coach. And the many Japanese-only Kanji Quiz, IQ Supplement,English training and what-not. But that's not what you look at when you're buying a DS. You look at New Super Mario Bros. Mario Kart DS, Pokemon, Phantom Hourglass, Phoenix Wright, Elite Beat Agents etc.

Sum it up: There'll be a lot of these training games, but there'll also be those awesome "hardcore" titles.

LOOK OUTSIDE E3!!!

Have you seen the new metroid vids on ign, wow there awsome, that and mario, brawl, fire emblem which has a good trailer, the zapper looks like fun with resi evil. I'm still happy with how nintendo is going. They had one crappy conference and everyone turns there back on them, e3 isnt even over yet.sailor232

The zapper looks like it can be fun but Resi Evil looks a bit cheapy on the conference vids. Like it doesn't matter much what You do. That game SEGA is bringing to the Wii for the zapper looks a lot more interesting to me.

You don't get it do you. Nintendo CAN NOT AFFORD to compete in a vicious hardcore battle with MS and SCE they will die. They don't have a choice but to let the hardcore market go.

They tried, the N64 was the Nintendo hardcore gaming machine and although it sold ok it was struggling against the competition but ok that was because of marketing, Nintendo's arrogance and stubboness not to move forward.

They tried to replicate the PS1 in the GC, easy to develop, better marketing, but they failed to understand why it was successful the way the MS does and they didn't have vast amounts of money MS do which needed, other wise like I said, if MS didn't buy their way in they would spend the next 15 years trying to get gamers and developers respect and make no money in the long run, its harsh, its business.

So with the Wii they HAVE to take another route otherwise it is game over for them and while you say they should have to cater to you, what good is this if it will lead them to go the way of Sega. Sega went this way because they didn't want to admit they could not compete on the same level.

Deep down even Nintendo know, even if they say the opposite that they have to let there hardcore gamers go and lean heavily towards the very casual market.

If anything Sony would be to blame as they have forced another company a legendary company to either go bust or go another direction, but its just business, we can't blame Sony for its success,right. Well we also can't blame Ninendo for saving their ass.

Its that time for Nintendo fans, this is fact, this is harsh, if you don't like it anymore then let them go, its as simple as that. They can't afford to be the Nintendo we grew up with, time changed and almost took them with it.

nintendo is making gaming mainstream like reading, watching movies and listening to music.

furtherfan

What happened to those industries huh? Degradation of quality and eventual decline thats what. Ann Coulter the known plagiarist and shill somehow is repeatedly a best-selling author while many far more talented authors can barely eat. The most grossing movies are usually comic book properties or low-quality tripe, AFI is more popular than Iced Earth, Gwen Stefani is more popular than the Gorillaz.

Aside from this Nintendo isn't really expanding the market they are shifting it. All these sales figures they throw around have as much to do with more expensive console hardware as they do with Nintendo.

Gaming contrary to belief does not have room for every genre and demographic under the sun, genres become popular and displace other ones and new demographics displace older ones. Nintendo is changing the genres to mini-games and non-games and the demographics will follow this trend.

I think the sad truth is, that gaming in general, as it is becoming more mainstream, is moving away from us: the hardcore audience. The more the industry grows the more we are going to be alienated. I think this is something we just have to take into consideration.

There will always be a market for the hardcore audience, but because the industry is growing so much, we are becoming a smaller piece of the pie, so it just seems like we are getting less attention when in reality, new markets are just getting more attention (casual gaming) and we are just getting about the same as we did a decade ago.

The main problem with this is that, developers and publishers want money. So why continue to cater to the same small demographic when there are much bigger, more profitable demographics opening up to appeal to and make games for, especially when its much easier to satisfy thisnew market? If money wasn't an issue, we would have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, people are taking notice, and they want a bigger slice of the pie then they are getting, especially since they know its much easier to get and less work is required.

Luckily there will always be those that will remain dedicated to the hardcore market, but the majority of developers will leave us behind with nothing to do but drop gaming as a hobby, unless something can be done. Hopefully, by the time it gets to be a critical situation, videogaming will have branched off into two groups: casual gaming/non gaming and traditional gaming. If there is still passion in videogame developing, videogames as well know them today will live on for quite a long time.

However, there is still the possibility of the market tapering off, as in, as more people are born into videogaming, the hardcore demographic will grow, and maybe there won't be as much of a desire to market to non-gamers. Of course there will still be those who casually enjoy videogames no matter what age they are exposed to them. But anyway, enough of my rant. I think gaming will work out okay. There may be a dark period in the future where the ratio of casuals to hardcore gamers will be so immense, but I believe that in the end things will work out when the market balances itself.

Wow. Very well written, and well read post TC. And I must say, Being of the age of the "average" gamer of this generation (I'm almost 25) I, too grew up playing with Nintendo. I remember my gameboy (read - mini cinderblock), playing ninja turtles! I remember being jealous of my friends Super nintendo.. I even remember thinking Turok 2 was the best thing since cinnamon-sugar toast, and 007 being *THE* game to play.

But ever since I played my friends Playstation, I realised that that was the direction I wanted to go with gaming, and l stuck to it, and got a PS2 that gen, and (being the casual that i was in those days) thought nothing of it. But with the Wii, and mainly, your post, I really see what Nintendo is doing. I *actually* see it. I did love nintendo. They were a boon for video games. They brought them into the mainstream, by making games *everyone* could enjoy.

But like you said, now they are making games for the opposite end of the spectrum, and the other two (Playstation and Xbox) are now making games for EVERYONE (truely) Generally consisting of the more hardcore games being on disk, and the more ... "E rated" games for download. It really does seem like Nintendo went down the wrong path.

What I fail to get is, Why did nintendo drop out of the race? What was stopping them from turning the Wii into a visual powerhouse like the *ex* competition? That way they could do their silly "kiddy/everybody" games, and still have decent ports. Not to mention the online possibilities.

Prices aside, Nintendo is arguably a more successful brand name than even Sony. Meaning if Nintendo could have competed with the 360 and PS3's hardware, and tacked on a price of about $450-$500, they would be raking in the dough, and popularity right now.

They took the road to nowhere, and unfortunately, as I predicted in an old blog post, people are realising this. They chose to burn out rather than fade away.

However, I also predicted they would take the money they made off the wii, and use it to create a *real* next gen system. I don't see that happening anymore. They better enjoy their cash flow while it lasts. You get what you pay for.
0rin

If you don't like nintendo, don't buy nintendo stuff, easy. You guys say the ps3 has more "hardcore" games than the wii, it has only ONE game worth playing! And the only other games on the horizon that people want are mgs4 and final cutscene 39! While the wii has ssmb:b, galaxy,and prime this year alone. You cows are rediculous hypocrites.flclempire

Add to the PS3 list: Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, Warhawk, Ratchet & Clank, SOCOM, Assassin's Creed, UTIII at the very least. Also if you somehow think the Wii games library is currently superior to the PS3 library you are off your rocker.