Good-Bye Nintendo

Microsoft and Sony continue to push real games for serious gamers, thank god for them. Nintendo continues to service its fan base well and is an ingenious innovator, but they're speaking a completely different language now.

Sure I think Mario Kart Wii looks cool and I'm very interested in the Zapper, but its not a serious gaming platform by any stretch of the imagination (unless your happy playing the next Mario, Smash, Zelda and Metroid for the rest of your life).

They have their own crowd now and it doesn't involve the hardcore gamer unless you have kids (or want a cheap thrill on the side of your 360/PS3). This will likely make them the most money and rightly so, but as gamers WTF should that matter to us?

Its about the games, and their riches will go into making the next trendy gimmick and milked franchise.

Hardcore gamer are only 10% of gaming population (and 90% of the annoyance),komdosina

And 30+ percent of the sales, you forgot that bit there.

Hardcore gamer are only 10% of gaming population (and 90% of the annoyance), with Xbox360 and PS3 games costing on the average of 15 to 30 million dollars. Publishers and hardware makers need the casual market to sustain them, how do you think the PS1and2 where so successful. The casual keep your market afloat to that pompous, whiny, nerdy, elitist have their hardcore games. Given that expense without the casuals the video game market would collapse, so show a little gratitude to the casuals. Also now Nintendo is evilfor catering to the same marketthat Sony in the previous two generation catered to, there is only one word for people like the thread starter, hypocrisy.komdosina

[QUOTE="0rin"]Wow. Very well written, and well read post TC. And I must say, Being of the age of the "average" gamer of this generation (I'm almost 25) I, too grew up playing with Nintendo. I remember my gameboy (read - mini cinderblock), playing ninja turtles! I remember being jealous of my friends Super nintendo.. I even remember thinking Turok 2 was the best thing since cinnamon-sugar toast, and 007 being *THE* game to play.

But ever since I played my friends Playstation, I realised that that was the direction I wanted to go with gaming, and l stuck to it, and got a PS2 that gen, and (being the casual that i was in those days) thought nothing of it. But with the Wii, and mainly, your post, I really see what Nintendo is doing. I *actually* see it. I did love nintendo. They were a boon for video games. They brought them into the mainstream, by making games *everyone* could enjoy.

But like you said, now they are making games for the opposite end of the spectrum, and the other two (Playstation and Xbox) are now making games for EVERYONE (truely) Generally consisting of the more hardcore games being on disk, and the more ... "E rated" games for download. It really does seem like Nintendo went down the wrong path.

What I fail to get is, Why did nintendo drop out of the race? What was stopping them from turning the Wii into a visual powerhouse like the *ex* competition? That way they could do their silly "kiddy/everybody" games, and still have decent ports. Not to mention the online possibilities.

Prices aside, Nintendo is arguably a more successful brand name than even Sony. Meaning if Nintendo could have competed with the 360 and PS3's hardware, and tacked on a price of about $450-$500, they would be raking in the dough, and popularity right now.

They took the road to nowhere, and unfortunately, as I predicted in an old blog post, people are realising this. They chose to burn out rather than fade away.

However, I also predicted they would take the money they made off the wii, and use it to create a *real* next gen system. I don't see that happening anymore. They better enjoy their cash flow while it lasts. You get what you pay for.
subrosian

You're acting as if Wii will go the way of the Dreamcast :shock:

And Nintendo is still giving us their franchises. Give me a franchise that has been casualized. Because the only casual games I see are the games that were already casual to begin with.

[QUOTE="furtherfan"]

nintendo is making gaming mainstream like reading, watching movies and listening to music.

Runningflame570

What happened to those industries huh? Degradation of quality and eventual decline thats what. Ann Coulter the known plagiarist and shill somehow is repeatedly a best-selling author while many far more talented authors can barely eat. The most grossing movies are usually comic book properties or low-quality tripe, AFI is more popular than Iced Earth, Gwen Stefani is more popular than the Gorillaz.

Aside from this Nintendo isn't really expanding the market they are shifting it. All these sales figures they throw around have as much to do with more expensive console hardware as they do with Nintendo.

Gaming contrary to belief does not have room for every genre and demographic under the sun, genres become popular and displace other ones and new demographics displace older ones. Nintendo is changing the genres to mini-games and non-games and the demographics will follow this trend.

But like you said, now they are making games for the opposite end of the spectrum, and the other two (Playstation and Xbox) are now making games for EVERYONE (truely) Generally consisting of the more hardcore games being on disk, and the more ... "E rated" games for download. It really does seem like Nintendo went down the wrong path.0rin

What twisted logic is that? The age rating does not determine the accessibility of a game, just the content. Thinking that 'E' is truly for everyone is being literal to the extreme.

What I fail to get is, Why did nintendo drop out of the race? What was stopping them from turning the Wii into a visual powerhouse like the *ex* competition? That way they could do their silly "kiddy/everybody" games, and still have decent ports. Not to mention the online possibilities.

Prices aside, Nintendo is arguably a more successful brand name than even Sony. Meaning if Nintendo could have competed with the 360 and PS3's hardware, and tacked on a price of about $450-$500, they would be raking in the dough, and popularity right now.0rin

Are you suggesting Nintendo would be nearly as successful if they took the traditional route? The Gamecube era demonstrated this, there is simply not enough room for three near-identical consoles; Nintendo had a choice to merely exist or to tread a new path for themselves.

Honestly, this is one of the best written posts I have ever seen. Nice explanations on your points, subrosian. I think the same too, the more I look into the Wii, the less I want it. It is full of minigames. I fear my thoughts are almost in a U-turn, I remember when i didn't care about a PS3, and wanted a Wii. Now, I want a PS3 by far more than a Wii.Tulak_Hord

[QUOTE="mexicangordo"][QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="bexarath"]So let me see if I can summarize that wall of text: "Nintendo is ruining gaming because they don't make games that I like." Also, great implication that your tastes = taste of all 'hardcore' gamers. Ego much?subrosian

These showcase games you seem to be talking about are pretty much all Miyamoto's current work. You seem more disappointed over Miyamoto, rather than Nintendo themselves.

I do not see *a single* response here saying "I prefer Wii Fitness, Wii Sports, Wii Play, Warioware, and Mario Paryt 8 to Metroid Prime, Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Super Smash Bros Melee, and Star Fox 64".
subrosian

Very few people on SW could say that. You took just a random smattering of wii games and compared them to the very best of N64 and GC. It's kind of funny that nearly all the games you listed from the N64 and GC have direct equivalents on the wii.

Metroid Prime = MP3 on Wii, and if you think it will be 'casual' just because you can stack beams you are deluding yourself. Think back to the SNES. Remember that game called Super Metroid? You know, the one people call the greatest sidescroller ever? That had stacking beams. It was really casual, wasn't it? Now IMO the beam and visor switching in Metroid Prime is incredibly boring and fiddly. And most game critics seem to agree. All the previews of MP3 are very positive about the beam stacking.

Ocarina of Time = future wii zelda game. OK, so it probably won't be as good as OoT. But, uh, NO GAMES are as good as Ocarina of Time. However the new zelda will be very different to Ocarina of Time, and it will be moving the series forward. Because although I love TP and WW, if they kept making zelda games in the OoT mould forever it would get stale.

Mario 64 = Mario Galaxy. Which IMO looks to be far better than Mario 64, with its great spherical worlds and variety of gameplay. Most importantly like with zelda it is moving the series forward. And you cannot say that Galaxy will be any more 'casual' than SM64.

SSBM = SSBB. Just go to the official site and you will see that Brawl is going to be the best Smash Bros. game by far, and a much greater improvement over Melee than Melee was over the original.

Star Fox 64 = umm... there's a star fox minigame in Warioware! No, I actually have nothing to counter this, so I will just put in a random wii game I like - Super Paper Mario. (I was going to say No More Heroes but you seem to be talking solely about first party games.)

So now I have reformulated the statement that you wanted somebody to make. "I prefer Metroid Prime 3, Zelda Wii, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Paper Mario to Metroid Prime, Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Super Smash Bros Melee, and Star Fox 64." And I mean it.

One more thing - though I disagree totally with what you've said, it's nice to see someone on system wars with a proper argument to make.

I have been saying this for some time, and it has been misinterpreted over and over again. I've been called an elitist, biased, a hater, whatever....

Nintendo is hurting gaming.

Frankly, what Nintendo is doing right now is appealing to a market that's not us - the longtime gamer - but a market that is *them* - people who don't like videogames - people who play things like DDR, Guitar Hero, and Jane Fonda workout tapes. They shoved us aside with the Wii - in fact, look at Reggies' comments for the past two years - they *are no longer interested* in catering to us.

At their press conference, Nintendo kept telling us "you're wrong". Over and over, in fact. They told us what to think. They told us "oh, you're wrong, this is gaming for everyone" - they essentially acted like "hehehe you're stupid, you don't get it." The reality is, they know this isn't gaming for us, they know we don't enjoy these games - but they figure, "hey, if we can tell some Nintendo diehards that we're making gaming *better*, maybe we can drag them along".

Everything they're doing right now is about catering to sales from a lucrative market - a market we've been calling "casuals" - but in retrospect we should have kept calling "non-gamers". Casuals *used to be* a market that pumped their chests for Madden and Halo - what we have here is a new beast entirely.


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For a minute, just concede that Nintendo doesn't care. Why are they harming gaming? Because they control so many nostalgic series. I had to give this up *a long time ago*. As an early Sega fan, I had to accept that my favorite games - such as Sonic the Hedgehog - were no longer the same. I had to come to terms with the parent company Sega losing their minds - Sonic 3D Blast helped a great deal to drive that reality home, and by the time I played Sonic Shuffle and Sonic Adventure 2, it became easier to accept that Sega was going downhill.

Nintendo isn't dying, they were though, they were dying, losing marketshare, and they found this huge new market with the Wii... and unfortunately, much like Sega, they hold our old favorites hostage. So what do we get? Our best games come with concessions - Metroid Prime 3 will be built around "the zapper", goes back to stacked beams, and features basically a "turbo charged" mode -why? All in the interest of making the bastion of Nintendo's "hardcore" catalog still sell to some of the same people who will buy Wii Fitness.

They are trying to blend the ****c franchises into the Wii Sports / Play / Fitness market

Twilight Princess was one of the easiest Zelda games I've ever played, Super Paper Mario was time-consuming, but not exactly *challenging*, and Super Smash Brawl might not feature online gameplay.

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And that was, by far, one of the worst parts of the show - "made you didn't notice that we already have online gameplay?" ... maybe Nintendo didn't notice that PC, Xbox 360, and PS3 have services that are lightyears ahead of what I do on a DS or Wii? I don't feel like I have "the world" in the palm of my hand when I play Mario Kart online on my DS - I feel like I might as well be playing against the AI - I can't identify if I'm really playing the same people again, there's no ranking, I can't talk to my opponents, I can't see my opponents - where is the online social interaction?

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I feel that Nintendo has realized that online doesn't matter to increase DS / Wii sales, so they're not doing it - that simply they said "building a service like PSN costs too much money, and look at the people buying a Wii, they don't care." I do care, however, it's important for me. I have friends and family all over the world - being able to see their face and hear their voice while I play is vital - it makes it so I'm playing a racing game with my little brother, even though he's in another city - it makes it so I can talk to the other gamers in my Halo clan, even though they're in Denmark. Nintendo's issue isn't that they "don't get it" - it's that their current salesbase says "I can go to YouTube and MySpace on my Wii - Wii does it all!"

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Nintendo is in a situation where, quite frankly, we, the longtime gamers, are supporting them out of nostalgia. If the actual *games* Nintendo is releasing - Metroid, Mario, Smash, et cetera - were the same games, but with new characters and titles, would we be buying them. Honestly, look in your heart and tell me you'd buy MP3 without the "M". This doesn't just apply to Nintendo - Halo 3 *looks awful* by comparisson to other FPS titles coming out this year - it hasn't *evolved* enough - the FPS genre moves and improve so quickly - yet Halo 3 looks archaic. Yet MP3 looks *even more* archaic, and we support it, why? Because it's Metroid. I'm as guilty as the next guy of doing this.

I'm sorry, this all might not be the level of logic or cohesiveness I usually have - I have no intention of becoming a fanboy or a hater or anything else, but I'm done with Nintendo - I am washing my hands of them. For me it's about more than the games, it's also about the vision behind those games, about what you're trying to do with them. Yesterday's showcase was a disgusting display of chest-pounding arrogance and a clear showing that Nintendo does not view games as art.

"Games are for everyone" doesn't mean you should stop making games for me. I always thought, as a kid when I played Gameboy, that Nintendo would grow up with me, and they haven't. Sega and Nintendo, hand-in-hand walked me down a brightly coloured path to living gaming - and now both of them are gone. Nintendo... Sega... gone. I thought they were gone last year, and I gave them one last chance here, I tried to be open-minded, but I can't do it anymore.

I cannot accept Nintendo's vision for gaming. I do not support the idea that titles such as Wii Fitness should be showcased as videogames.

I'm done Nintendo. You do what you want to do, you will never get another dollar from me. Say good-bye to the tens of thousands I've spent on your products over the years. Frankly, it's my finest wish that every other longtime Nintendo fan do the same. Hardcore gamers represent a great deal of software sales - as long as we continue to support their "blended" market - where they make *just enough* of a hardcore spin on ****c franchises to tempt us, they will be able to keep being insanely profitable.

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I'm done. I'm sick and tired of having to hold my breath and pray - Sony this year "got it" - they were humble, they showed games, and they said "thanks for being here guys." Nintendo doesn't care. Sonic and Mario standing together in the same game should be enough of a warning sign to longtime gamers - hegehogs and plumbers running down a track together (at the same height, might I add, though Sega keeps changing how tall Sonic is every game, it's getting annoying) is, I believe, one of the signs of the apocalypse.
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Nintendo's world has ended, and I'm done with it. Bye, see ya. Time to get a second or third job, because the future of gaming as I enjoy it does not lie in your competively priced "plug-n-play" remote controlled gaming box.

subrosian

Can You explain to me how this is not already the way games are made? Aren't there far better developer talents than we see now who don't have the means to develop games? You have to be really lucky to get a job in the gaming industry.
KungfuKitten

Simple, those who are most talented attract the most attention generally speaking. Even with EA and Ubisoft out front in company worth the most hyped games are from Epic, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Square-Enix, Team Ico, Konami, Capcom, etc.

While they may not have the most sales they always attract the most attention. This is not the case elsewhere..good luck finding someplace to locate movies that are quality but not blockbusters if you don't feel like traveling to a film festival. Likewise good luck finding anyplace to recommend you the best niche book authors and don't count on critics of any kind to inform you of the best musical artists out there because they are habitually wrong it seems.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="0rin"]Wow. Very well written, and well read post TC. And I must say, Being of the age of the "average" gamer of this generation (I'm almost 25) I, too grew up playing with Nintendo. I remember my gameboy (read - mini cinderblock), playing ninja turtles! I remember being jealous of my friends Super nintendo.. I even remember thinking Turok 2 was the best thing since cinnamon-sugar toast, and 007 being *THE* game to play.

But ever since I played my friends Playstation, I realised that that was the direction I wanted to go with gaming, and l stuck to it, and got a PS2 that gen, and (being the casual that i was in those days) thought nothing of it. But with the Wii, and mainly, your post, I really see what Nintendo is doing. I *actually* see it. I did love nintendo. They were a boon for video games. They brought them into the mainstream, by making games *everyone* could enjoy.

But like you said, now they are making games for the opposite end of the spectrum, and the other two (Playstation and Xbox) are now making games for EVERYONE (truely) Generally consisting of the more hardcore games being on disk, and the more ... "E rated" games for download. It really does seem like Nintendo went down the wrong path.

What I fail to get is, Why did nintendo drop out of the race? What was stopping them from turning the Wii into a visual powerhouse like the *ex* competition? That way they could do their silly "kiddy/everybody" games, and still have decent ports. Not to mention the online possibilities.

Prices aside, Nintendo is arguably a more successful brand name than even Sony. Meaning if Nintendo could have competed with the 360 and PS3's hardware, and tacked on a price of about $450-$500, they would be raking in the dough, and popularity right now.

They took the road to nowhere, and unfortunately, as I predicted in an old blog post, people are realising this. They chose to burn out rather than fade away.

However, I also predicted they would take the money they made off the wii, and use it to create a *real* next gen system. I don't see that happening anymore. They better enjoy their cash flow while it lasts. You get what you pay for.
Eponique

You're acting as if Wii will go the way of the Dreamcast :shock:

And Nintendo is still giving us their franchises. Give me a franchise that has been casualized. Because the only casual games I see are the games that were already casual to begin with.

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]Can You explain to me how this is not already the way games are made? Aren't there far better developer talents than we see now who don't have the means to develop games? You have to be really lucky to get a job in the gaming industry.
Runningflame570

Simple, those who are most talented attract the most attention generally speaking. Even with EA and Ubisoft out front in company worth the most hyped games are from Epic, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Square-Enix, Team Ico, Konami, Capcom, etc.

While they may not have the most sales they always attract the most attention. This is not the case elsewhere..good luck finding someplace to locate movies that are quality but not blockbusters if you don't feel like traveling to a film festival. Likewise good luck finding anyplace to recommend you the best niche book authors and don't count on critics of any kind to inform you of the best musical artists out there because they are habitually wrong it seems.

There are many unrecognised games as well. The ones with the best looks seemed to draw the biggest attention, not the best games at all. Beyond good & evil sales were horrible. While everyone who actually played it loved it. Same with populous 3. Or the indigo prophecy. And i think there are many great talented people who haven't even been able to ever create a game. Like a few great directors don't get to make their own movie, because they need the luck to be recognised by the ones who got the means to make a movie.

If You are looking at it this way: There are a lot of cheap licensed games. In the movieworld these would draw all the attention, yet in the games industry we ignore them and get exceptional better quality games.
Then i have to wonder whether that would change if the entire world was to start gaming.
Isn't it true that in the movie biz there are small groups of people who know what movies to go for besides the average Hollywood resource stuffed guns a blazing spectacle? Wouldn't we represent that group of people who would stick together and go after the great games ignoring all the holified pieces of digital donkeydroppings?
I'm just wondering. I don't know how all these things work in this world.

[QUOTE="Eponique"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="0rin"]Wow. Very well written, and well read post TC. And I must say, Being of the age of the "average" gamer of this generation (I'm almost 25) I, too grew up playing with Nintendo. I remember my gameboy (read - mini cinderblock), playing ninja turtles! I remember being jealous of my friends Super nintendo.. I even remember thinking Turok 2 was the best thing since cinnamon-sugar toast, and 007 being *THE* game to play.

But ever since I played my friends Playstation, I realised that that was the direction I wanted to go with gaming, and l stuck to it, and got a PS2 that gen, and (being the casual that i was in those days) thought nothing of it. But with the Wii, and mainly, your post, I really see what Nintendo is doing. I *actually* see it. I did love nintendo. They were a boon for video games. They brought them into the mainstream, by making games *everyone* could enjoy.

But like you said, now they are making games for the opposite end of the spectrum, and the other two (Playstation and Xbox) are now making games for EVERYONE (truely) Generally consisting of the more hardcore games being on disk, and the more ... "E rated" games for download. It really does seem like Nintendo went down the wrong path.

What I fail to get is, Why did nintendo drop out of the race? What was stopping them from turning the Wii into a visual powerhouse like the *ex* competition? That way they could do their silly "kiddy/everybody" games, and still have decent ports. Not to mention the online possibilities.

Prices aside, Nintendo is arguably a more successful brand name than even Sony. Meaning if Nintendo could have competed with the 360 and PS3's hardware, and tacked on a price of about $450-$500, they would be raking in the dough, and popularity right now.

They took the road to nowhere, and unfortunately, as I predicted in an old blog post, people are realising this. They chose to burn out rather than fade away.

However, I also predicted they would take the money they made off the wii, and use it to create a *real* next gen system. I don't see that happening anymore. They better enjoy their cash flow while it lasts. You get what you pay for.
0rin

You're acting as if Wii will go the way of the Dreamcast :shock:

And Nintendo is still giving us their franchises. Give me a franchise that has been casualized. Because the only casual games I see are the games that were already casual to begin with.

I don't care about how much junk there is percentage-wise. Look at the DS. It's flooded with training games. The PS2 is flooded with this stupid ./hack franchise.

No one cares about them! That's why no one bothers mentioning them, there are other awesome titles that are available. I just don't see why people aren't doing it on the Wii with Soul Calibur Ledgends, NiGHTS, RE:UC, SSBB, SMG, MP3, BWii, Fire Emblem, Strikers etc. coming out in this year alone.

I'm getting tire of this bullcrap!!!

Nintendo isn't dead!!! The only thing that is dead is your former support of nintendo because you relied on ONE showcase to prove to you if Nintendo will still support the Hardcore gamers!!! As you keep weeping about them "Killing Gaming" I'll be enjoying playing Phantom Hour Glass (By means it's not dumb down if previews says its one of the best Zelda games on a handheld), MP3:Corruption and Fire Emblem: Goddess of Dawn (A nintendo hardcore game)!!! And maybe a few xbox360 games, but that's it!!!

[QUOTE="Runningflame570"]

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]Can You explain to me how this is not already the way games are made? Aren't there far better developer talents than we see now who don't have the means to develop games? You have to be really lucky to get a job in the gaming industry.
KungfuKitten

Simple, those who are most talented attract the most attention generally speaking. Even with EA and Ubisoft out front in company worth the most hyped games are from Epic, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Square-Enix, Team Ico, Konami, Capcom, etc.

While they may not have the most sales they always attract the most attention. This is not the case elsewhere..good luck finding someplace to locate movies that are quality but not blockbusters if you don't feel like traveling to a film festival. Likewise good luck finding anyplace to recommend you the best niche book authors and don't count on critics of any kind to inform you of the best musical artists out there because they are habitually wrong it seems.

There are many unrecognised games as well. The ones with the best looks seemed to draw the biggest attention, not the best games at all. Beyond good & evil sales were horrible. While everyone who actually played it loved it. Same with populous 3. Or the indigo prophecy. And i think there are many great talented people who haven't even been able to ever create a game. Like a few great directors don't get to make their own movie, because they need the luck to be recognised by the ones who got the means to make a movie.

If You are looking at it this way: There are a lot of cheap licensed games. In the movieworld these would draw all the attention, yet in the games industry we ignore them and get exceptional better quality games.
Then i have to wonder whether that would change if the entire world was to start gaming.
Isn't it true that in the movie biz there are small groups of people who know what movies to go for besides the average Hollywood resource stuffed guns a blazing spectacle? Wouldn't we represent that group of people who would stick together and go after the great games ignoring all the holified pieces of digital donkeydroppings?
I'm just wondering. I don't know how all these things work in this world.

There is also always the problem of "awareness" - specifically I have many friends who stopped gaming altogether because they simply don't know about some of the titles that appeal to them - they are hidden behind the "casualized" face the industry is putting on. If they knew, they'd buy, but because the industry shifts, they do not - and that segment of the market simply evaporates.

But this post really isn't about that - I am simply saying good-bye to Nintendo. I loved them, and what they were will be missed. If people who buy the marketing bull want to tell me why I'm wrong, fine, tell away - it won't change the games that are on the shelf, but if it makes you feel better, fine. If people want to call me an egocentric or an elitist for expecting the company I've been supporting financially for two decades to continue to think about me when they design games, that's fine too, you're entitled to your opinions - I simply believe that they're wrong.

Wall of text.

I stopped reading at "Nintendo is hurting gaming".

_TheJoker_

If you don't like reading you're at the wrong place...

I don't care about how much junk there is percentage-wise. Look at the DS. It's flooded with training games. The PS2 is flooded with this stupid ./hack franchise.

No one cares about them! That's why no one bothers mentioning them, there are other awesome titles that are available. I just don't see why people aren't doing it on the Wii with Soul Calibur Ledgends, NiGHTS, RE:UC, SSBB, SMG, MP3, BWii, Fire Emblem, Strikers etc. coming out in this year alone.

Eponique

Well I'll be darn !

The TC has been there to support Nintendo this gen and I know it but it's a good feeling reading the post knowing this gamer speaks his mind and though he was willing to go along for a while; the feeling of, enough is enough has hit like a ton a bricks !

Hear the sound of one hand clapping my friend and take pride as I am fully confident now; you sir are a true gamer, through and through.

Many know I have not been a supporter of the " New " Nintendo but when I post about it I mostly have the sharp elbows and big feet; stepping on fanboy toes and in turn get flammed relentlesly lol but you're post speaks volumes and may have a better chance of convincing others of what Nintendo has been up to!

Subrosian, again, very good post and I am in agreement and to have this happening gives me no pleasure but in fact as a long time gamer and Nintendo fan it quite literally hurts and I feel you're pain as well.

Great post and as always I can appriciate you're effort and patience trying to defend against the attacks you are recieving for telling the truth - Game On !!

There are many unrecognised games as well. The ones with the best looks seemed to draw the biggest attention, not the best games at all. Beyond good & evil sales were horrible. While everyone who actually played it loved it. Same with populous 3. Or the indigo prophecy.

KungfuKitten

And guess what? All of those with the exception of Populous 3 garnered significant hype within gaming journalism (extremely significant with Beyond Good & Evil). How many places even mention obscure ****cs like gaming still does? If Tribes was a movie it would not be mentioned, if Demons Crest was a movie it wouldn't have been allowed to release, much less ever mentioned and if Blackthorne was a movie..well it would be put in every gimmicked commercial until nobody knew what it was.

[QUOTE="Eponique"]I don't care about how much junk there is percentage-wise. Look at the DS. It's flooded with training games. The PS2 is flooded with this stupid ./hack franchise.

No one cares about them! That's why no one bothers mentioning them, there are other awesome titles that are available. I just don't see why people aren't doing it on the Wii with Soul Calibur Ledgends, NiGHTS, RE:UC, SSBB, SMG, MP3, BWii, Fire Emblem, Strikers etc. coming out in this year alone.

0rin

Huh? HD? Where the hell did that come from O.o

And as far as Wii Fitness goes, it won't overshadow these awesome titles for me.

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]

There are many unrecognised games as well. The ones with the best looks seemed to draw the biggest attention, not the best games at all. Beyond good & evil sales were horrible. While everyone who actually played it loved it. Same with populous 3. Or the indigo prophecy.

Runningflame570

And guess what? All of those with the exception of Populous 3 garnered significant hype within gaming journalism (extremely significant with Beyond Good & Evil). How many places even mention obscure ****cs like gaming still does? If Tribes was a movie it would not be mentioned, if Demons Crest was a movie it wouldn't have been allowed to release, much less ever mentioned and if Blackthorne was a movie..well it would be put in every gimmicked commercial until nobody knew what it was.

[QUOTE="0rin"][QUOTE="Eponique"]I don't care about how much junk there is percentage-wise. Look at the DS. It's flooded with training games. The PS2 is flooded with this stupid ./hack franchise.

No one cares about them! That's why no one bothers mentioning them, there are other awesome titles that are available. I just don't see why people aren't doing it on the Wii with Soul Calibur Ledgends, NiGHTS, RE:UC, SSBB, SMG, MP3, BWii, Fire Emblem, Strikers etc. coming out in this year alone.

Eponique

Huh? HD? Where the hell did that come from O.o

And as far as Wii Fitness goes, it won't overshadow these awesome titles for me.

Unfortunately, the indie film industry is absolutely brutal, and drowned out by the mainstream pieces of crap. Many indie film developers are oppresed by the mainstream studios (financially) to the point where, should they make a movie that becomes a cult hit, they are forced to "sell out" to the big companies. In the end, they almost always get screwed over.

I'm not sure if you're aware of the problem, but it has gotten to the point where there are actually indie film makers selling bootleg copies of their own movies, because the "black tower" of major film studios are able to wield such a dark grasp on movie distribution as a whole.

The only thing that has saved the "hardcore" film industry has been reductions in development costs (shooting all digital is cheaper than using film) and the ability to use the internet as a cheap means of raising awareness. As an indie movie fan, I'll quite literally get emails saying "oh, I'm showing my movie at the Enzian this week, it's $5, and I'm taking donations."

Do we really want the people creating games like Castlevania, Metal Gear Solid, and Final Fantasy to be forced to "dumb down" their product, or become homeless?

In any case, no, this market model would be horrific - if gaming were to shift in such a way towards the "non-gamer" within the industry as a whole, the higher costs (and risks) that come with segmenting your market by developing for consoles would force many of the "hardcore" developers out of the console market completely - and the removal of the budgets for their brand of gaming would push them to make lower-quality PC titles.

As titles like Eternal Darkness, Psychonauts, and Okami demonstrated, when the "big boys" aren't behind these games, when they arbitrarily decide to aim for a different market, fewer people know about them, and thus they have to ride on the financial support of a different type of gamer.

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There is also always the problem of "awareness" - specifically I have many friends who stopped gaming altogether because they simply don't know about some of the titles that appeal to them - they are hidden behind the "casualized" face the industry is putting on. If they knew, they'd buy, but because the industry shifts, they do not - and that segment of the market simply evaporates.

But this post really isn't about that - I am simply saying good-bye to Nintendo. I loved them, and what they were will be missed. If people who buy the marketing bull want to tell me why I'm wrong, fine, tell away - it won't change the games that are on the shelf, but if it makes you feel better, fine. If people want to call me an egocentric or an elitist for expecting the company I've been supporting financially for two decades to continue to think about me when they design games, that's fine too, you're entitled to your opinions - I simply believe that they're wrong.

subrosian

Well it seems to me that gaming is going to become incredibly popular whether we want it or not. And looking at what entertainment stands for, i would really like gaming to become as implemented and influencial in our every day life as it can be.

If it is going to be incredibly popular, the obvious solution would be making people aware what makes a game a good game. To ensure that they aren't carried away by the developers and publishers. To actually show the uninitiated that games can be so much more than the average happy feet experience.
It might be a pretty hopeless situation. Because with movies it shouldn't be that hard to show people what they are missing out on. But with games You got a lot of persistant barriers added that create a border not just between quality and moneymilking games, but also demanding and easy games.
Maybe something like high quality or big budget casual/non gamer titles. The ones that in terms of quality and experience blow the other casual/non gamer games like wiisports out of the water. To create some competition at the front.

That probably doesn't work at all, since the movie industry didn't make it. So do You know of some solution to the problem? Cause i have heard the problems, but i'm not hearing any solutions.

Simply put, another dumb thread disguised with dramatic rethoric.

-Why do you claim Nintendo has abandoned its fans when the games they showcased were MP3, SMG, SSBB, Mario Kartand Phantom Hourglass? They basically only had one title for their new generation of customers, and it was WiiFit.

-If you wanted to talk about the progress of gaming, you wouldn't be comparing the Wii to the Xbox 360 and PS3, you would be comparing consoles to gaming PCs. No console is pushing the enveloppe like PC gaming is, and instead they're adopting obscure features like charging for online services, microtransactions and P2P gaming.So if you say you're turning your back on Nintendo because they've become too archaic, but decide to support the 360 and PS3, you're a hypocrite.

-Normal people aren't anal enough to ponder whether Metroid or Halo 3 is too archaic for them to play. I suggest you get a grip and play games for the fun of it.

[QUOTE="furtherfan"]

nintendo is making gaming mainstream like reading, watching movies and listening to music.

Runningflame570

What happened to those industries huh?

a lot of choice. that's all. something for everyone. doesn't matter what's more popular. even if Britney spears sells billions of cd's, i can always buy Velvet Underground, Beethoven, etc...

I can watch Pirates of C. or i can watch the latest Lars Von Trier..

i can read John Grisham or i can read Shakespeare

[QUOTE="Eponique"][QUOTE="0rin"][QUOTE="Eponique"]I don't care about how much junk there is percentage-wise. Look at the DS. It's flooded with training games. The PS2 is flooded with this stupid ./hack franchise.

No one cares about them! That's why no one bothers mentioning them, there are other awesome titles that are available. I just don't see why people aren't doing it on the Wii with Soul Calibur Ledgends, NiGHTS, RE:UC, SSBB, SMG, MP3, BWii, Fire Emblem, Strikers etc. coming out in this year alone.

subrosian

Huh? HD? Where the hell did that come from O.o

And as far as Wii Fitness goes, it won't overshadow these awesome titles for me.

xD Yeah, I know. I was talking to the OP. And some people are interested in Dragon Quest Swords, maybe not a majority but there are some.

And no Nintendo Franchise that we love have been casualized. The only thing that's casual are new IPs. SSBB, Fire Emblem andMP3 continue to stay hardcore. SMG... I actually believe Nintendo on this one, it appeals to everyone! There are "hardcore" games for the Wii, you just have to ignore this "Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree" and "WiiFit" crap.

Well I'll be darn !

The TC has been there to support Nintendo this gen and I know it but it's a good feeling reading the post knowing this gamer speaks his mind and though he was willing to go along for a while; the feeling of, enough is enough has hit like a ton a bricks !

Hear the sound of one hand clapping my friend and take pride as I am fully confident now; you sir are a true gamer, through and through.

Many know I have not been a supporter of the " New " Nintendo but when I post about it I mostly have the sharp elbows and big feet; stepping on fanboy toes and in turn get flammed relentlesly lol but you're post speaks volumes and may have a better chance of convincing others of what Nintendo has been up to!

Subrosian, again, very good post and I am in agreement and to have this happening gives me no pleasure but in fact as a long time gamer and Nintendo fan it quite literally hurts and I feel you're pain as well.

Great post and as always I can appriciate you're effort and patience trying to defend against the attacks you are recieving for telling the truth - Game On !!

SecretPolice

Simply put, another dumb thread disguised with dramatic rethoric.

-Why do you claim Nintendo has abandoned its fans when the games they showcased were MP3, SMG, SSBB, Mario Kartand Phantom Hourglass? They basically only had one title for their new generation of customers, and it was WiiFit.

-If you wanted to talk about the progress of gaming, you wouldn't be comparing the Wii to the Xbox 360 and PS3, you would be comparing consoles to gaming PCs. No console is pushing the enveloppe like PC gaming is, and instead they're adopting obscure features like charging for online services, microtransactions and P2P gaming.So if you say you're turning your back on Nintendo because they've become too archaic, but decide to support the 360 and PS3, you're a hypocrite.

-Normal people aren't anal enough to ponder whether Metroid or Halo 3 is too archaic for them to play. I suggest you get a grip and play games for the fun of it.

TNT_Slug

In the light of Subrosians post, no combatant in system wars is doing things right. The PS3 and x360 and pc are following a path stuck in tradition which leads to enormous costs without enormous progression. The path of the Wii does allow for progression without enormous costs, but it is attracting so many new people that our niche gaming desires are possibly going to be ignored.

When sheep kept saying DS = Wii for the last year before Wii's release they had no idea what it actually meant until now.

I wonder how it must taste to eat your own foot.

When they spent five times as much time on Wii Fit alone (not counting the stupid Wii Zapper and Wii Wheel bits) on that game alone, its because they've obviously got their priorities backwards.

Wait...what? The innovation this is debatable, but none of those things aside from microtransactions that you are talking about even apply to Sony (microtransactions PS3 only in fact). Also I fail to see how that makes him a hypocrit.

Normal people don't post in online forums either, get over yourself there.

Simply put, another dumb thread disguised with dramatic rethoric.

-Why do you claim Nintendo has abandoned its fans when the games they showcased were MP3, SMG, SSBB, Mario Kartand Phantom Hourglass? They basically only had one title for their new generation of customers, and it was WiiFit.

-If you wanted to talk about the progress of gaming, you wouldn't be comparing the Wii to the Xbox 360 and PS3, you would be comparing consoles to gaming PCs. No console is pushing the enveloppe like PC gaming is, and instead they're adopting obscure features like charging for online services, microtransactions and P2P gaming.So if you say you're turning your back on Nintendo because they've become too archaic, but decide to support the 360 and PS3, you're a hypocrite.

-Normal people aren't anal enough to ponder whether Metroid or Halo 3 is too archaic for them to play. I suggest you get a grip and play games for the fun of it.

TNT_Slug

-How much of those games was shown in comparison to the other games? Thought so.

-That comparison would not work considering the 360 and PS3 have much the same games as the PC.

-You missed the point. He was stating that Nintendo is catering more toward the casual market than the hardcore market, and he didn't like that at all.

There's still a lot to like about Nintendo and it's products but I too feel that it just doesn't make the same highly polished and trully deep absorbing game experiences that it did in the classic 16bit era of gaming. Maybe I am just expecting too much, but something about games like Mario Galaxy just feels a little casual-ified and I just don't see it appealing to older gamers in the same way that classics like Super Mario Bros 3 did (a game that trully anyone could appreciate. both gameplay wise and graphics/design wise). Once again, maybe I am just expecting too much.

The fact is tho, that I STILL haven't bought a Wii and I don't know if I will. I just want Nintendo to convince me that I won't feel dissapointed with my purchase in the same way that I was with my GC.

I think Nintendo really needs to embrace downloadable demos andtrailers etc on Wii, so gamers can try before they buy, and even if they decide not to buy any full games then they will at least be able to continually get some small play time out of their console in the form of these small demos and trailers etc, along with the other unique Channels that Wii offers beyond it's normal Wii games library...

a lot of choice. that's all. something for everyone. doesn't matter what's more popular. even if Britney spears sells billions of cd's, i can always buy Velvet Underground, Beethoven, etc...

I can watch Pirates of C. or i can watch the latest Lars Von Trier..

i can read John Grisham or i can read Shakespeare

furtherfan

If you are even aware of them because as it becomes commoditized certain commodities are pushed ahead of others at the expense of these obscure things. Literary circles are complaining about it right now in fact that book reviews aren't prominent enough or numerous enough.

[QUOTE="TNT_Slug"]

Simply put, another dumb thread disguised with dramatic rethoric.

-Why do you claim Nintendo has abandoned its fans when the games they showcased were MP3, SMG, SSBB, Mario Kartand Phantom Hourglass? They basically only had one title for their new generation of customers, and it was WiiFit.

-If you wanted to talk about the progress of gaming, you wouldn't be comparing the Wii to the Xbox 360 and PS3, you would be comparing consoles to gaming PCs. No console is pushing the enveloppe like PC gaming is, and instead they're adopting obscure features like charging for online services, microtransactions and P2P gaming.So if you say you're turning your back on Nintendo because they've become too archaic, but decide to support the 360 and PS3, you're a hypocrite.

-Normal people aren't anal enough to ponder whether Metroid or Halo 3 is too archaic for them to play. I suggest you get a grip and play games for the fun of it.

KungfuKitten

In the light of Subrosians post, no combatant in system wars is doing things right. The PS3 and x360 and pc are following a path stuck in tradition which leads to enormous costs without enormous progression. The path of the Wii does allow for progression without enormous costs, but it is attracting so many new people that our niche gaming desires are possibly going to be ignored.

It is nice to see Sony humbling winning back their fanbase. Thats the best result of this whole Wii fiasco.

[QUOTE="furtherfan"]

a lot of choice. that's all. something for everyone. doesn't matter what's more popular. even if Britney spears sells billions of cd's, i can always buy Velvet Underground, Beethoven, etc...

I can watch Pirates of C. or i can watch the latest Lars Von Trier..

i can read John Grisham or i can read Shakespeare

Runningflame570

If you are even aware of them because as it becomes commoditized certain commodities are pushed ahead of others at the expense of these obscure things. Literary circles are complaining about it right now in fact that book reviews aren't prominent enough or numerous enough.

that's up to you/ me

I'm gonna say this.

They aren't ruining gaming. They're just not appealing to gamers at all.

But, they are bringing new blood into the fold, and if even 1% of these people become "actual" gamers, then it is a benefit the industry.

So, they're killing nostalgia, not gaming. They're helping gaming, I reckon.

I have been saying this for some time, and it has been misinterpreted over and over again. I've been called an elitist, biased, a hater, whatever....

Nintendo is hurting gaming.
-
Nintendo's world has ended, and I'm done with it. Bye, see ya. Time to get a second or third job, because the future of gaming as I enjoy it does not lie in your competively priced "plug-n-play" remote controlled gaming box.

subrosian

Nintendo is not hurting gaming. Gamers are in denial.

The writing is on the wall - the hardcore is not 'THE' important market that it once was. That is the core issue here. YOU think Nintendo is hurting gaming because you are a member of the hardcore, and what Nintendo is doing does not bode well for your view of gaming. Nintendo is not hurting gaming - they are merely not focussing on the ****of gaming that you, and I, and other Gamespot posters enjoy. But why?

What you failed to address in your impassioned post was the changing demographics of gaming, and the increasing popularity of games as a mainstream media form. You, me, and our fellow Gamespot posters are no longer (or are ceasing to be) the main audience for games. Instead, your mum, your dad, your sister, your grandparents, your girlfriend are. The statistics to back this claim up are out there - hell, look at the Nintendo press conference for them. Look at the ESRB website for the average age of gamers... The market for games is maturing and attracting vast amounts of decidedly "casual" consumers - non-gamers or people who used to play games once in a blue moon previously. Games are getting more and more media coverage. Celebrities now play video games in public. Games are increasingly being seen as an acceptable passtime, and people are responding by buying games consoles and games. This is where Nintendo comes in.

Nintendo have seen these trends. Hell, from all their boasting about how they've seen this, over last couple of years, even blind freddy knows Nintendo knows this. All Nintendo have done is create a console that caters mainly towards these people. They are making games that cater for these people (eg. Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Brain Training). This does not sit well with you. For the first time, Nintendo is not focussing on the 'hardcore gamer' but is focussing on the more lucrative casual market. You feel abandoned, and your tastes are not being satisfied. But why should Nintendo focus on the relatively stagnant 'hardcore' sector? It did so with the Gamecube, and produced some stellar titles, but was outsold convincingly by Sony and by newcomer Microsoft. Obviously these two companies can cater for the hardcore far more effectively then Nintendo, with its 'kiddy' image ever can. So Nintendo is focussing on casuals. You say Nintendo is wrecking gaming, yet from the perspective of a previous non-gamer, Nintendo is introducing them to gaming. Nintendo is refamiliarising people with what gaming can offer as a form of entertainment. Their view is the opposite of yours - Nintendo is doing wonderful things for gaming.

At the very least, you will have to admit that Nintendo is expanding the market for video games. The DS is a runaway success, and the Wii looks like following it down that path. Nintendo is attracting a lot of previous non-gamers with the Wii - I have seen evidence of this in my own home town. At the very least, the games industry stands to tremendously benefit from the large numbers of new gamers who are now in the games market. Microsoft and Sony can stand to benefit from this, as when consumers tastes mature from mini-games to fully-fledged epics, who are in a better position to benefit then these two? Your proposition that Nintendo is hurting the games industry through these different games and different approach is like someone in the 1920's to 30's saying that Disney should stop making cartoons because they are wrecking the film industry due to them being different to the normal cinematic fare at that point.

So I reject your proposition that Nintendo is hurting gaming. Instead I contend that Nintendo is going to help usher gaming into a golden era of new audiences and new experiences. Flame away, I don't care, this is my belief.

This post remind me alot of Foaming Panda. You just cushion the blow a little for the Wii fans to not feel hurt. Great Job. Like FP, I disagree wiith you. I see nothing wrong in Nintendo grabing a new audience of gamers. If you actually saw one of Reggie's powerpoint charts, the gaming industry in the past 6 months has risen 46% in the US, 42% in Europe, and 114% in Japan. 69% of that is from Nintendo. Gaming is becoming the forefront of entertainment beating out Movies, Music, and books. Most of these new gamers (casuals) will likely become hardcore gamers, and enjoy systems like the PC and the PS3 later down the road. You simple have to applaud Nintendo for expanding the market like they have.IbukiNinja

Just because non-gamers and casuals are buying games made for them doesn't exactly mean that will change. And that forefront of entertainment is expanding only because the casuals and non-gamers are buying games tailor-made for them. They may expand the market, but at what cost? If third parties see the value in so many of these casual games selling, they will make more of those.

When sheep kept saying DS = Wii for the last year before Wii's release they had no idea what it actually meant until now.

I wonder how it must taste to eat your own foot.

Bread_or_Decide

Are you telling me there aren't useless training games on the DS?

Count them, they're countless.

-How much of those games was shown in comparison to the other games? Thought so.

-That comparison would not work considering the 360 and PS3 have much the same games as the PC.

-You missed the point. He was stating that Nintendo is catering more toward the casual market than the hardcore market, and he didn't like that at all.

norfair_dweller

2nd point: Do the PS3 and 360 get Spore and Crysis, or comparable games that will define gaming in the future? No.Does thePC shove peripherials, online service fees, Blu-Ray, microtransactions,or P2P gameplay down your throat? No. So why does this comparison not work?

3rd point: No, I didn't miss the point. Subrosian did diss both Halo 3 and MP3 on the grounds of being too archaic. Read closely before accusing me of missing the point.