Good-Bye Nintendo
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[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]When sheep kept saying DS = Wii for the last year before Wii's release they had no idea what it actually meant until now.
I wonder how it must taste to eat your own foot.
Eponique
Are you telling me there aren't useless training games on the DS?
Count them, they're countless.
Unless I missed something? That was precisely his point !I must say that there's a lot of truth to what you just said.
I stayed up late last night to read the streaming blog about Nintendo's conference because I was all but sure I was going to pick one up. In fact, I made the mistake of showing my girlfriend Super Monkey Ball and she's dieing to play it. I figured that after E3, I would be content for a year and see what the PS3 was like then.
I was in complete awe of how there was nothing at the show to get excited about and new. Yeah, I want to play MP3, but there was no big news. Mario Kart? First of all, the last one sucked, and secondly...a game that a non-gamer can beat me in? That means you're going through great pains to eliminate skill by introducing mechanics to gimp better players.
Then came Wii Fitness- the "game" for everybody. First of all, it's not a game- very few things are even game-like about it. It's interactive aerobics, and not very good ones at that. (On a complete side note- it actually has no good basis for declaring you in shape or not, so unless you're already overweight, there's no value in "playing".) But the one thing that I thought Nintendo was going to follow through on was playing games together with people....it's a single-player experience. Sorry, but I want to be able to play games with people, even if only locally. If that's supposed to be the next big thing, count me out- it's not an epic singleplayer game and its not something I could enjoy with friends.
I still might pick up a Wii (begrudgingly now) because of my girlfriend, but with the exception of an extremely small number of games, I have little to no interest anymore.
[QUOTE="Eponique"][QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]When sheep kept saying DS = Wii for the last year before Wii's release they had no idea what it actually meant until now.
I wonder how it must taste to eat your own foot.
SecretPolice
Are you telling me there aren't useless training games on the DS?
Count them, they're countless.
Unless I missed something? That was precisely his point !Oh right...
I don't mind though, the DS rawks ^.^
[QUOTE="norfair_dweller"]-How much of those games was shown in comparison to the other games? Thought so.1st point: did we watch the same conference? Those games I talked about were the spotlight of Nintendo's show.-That comparison would not work considering the 360 and PS3 have much the same games as the PC.
-You missed the point. He was stating that Nintendo is catering more toward the casual market than the hardcore market, and he didn't like that at all.
TNT_Slug
2nd point: Do the PS3 and 360 get Spore and Crysis, or comparable games that will define gaming in the future? No.Does thePC shove peripherials, online service fees, Blu-Ray, microtransactions,or P2P gameplay down your throat? No. So why does this comparison not work?
3rd point: No, I didn't miss the point. Subrosian did diss both Halo 3 and MP3 on the grounds of being too archaic. Read closely before accusing me of missing the point.
-Again, how much of those games was shown in comparison to the "other" games. Not much at all. We had a release date for Brawl and a miniscule amount of gameplay, a trailer for SMG, and two people playing Phantom Hourglass and Prime for a little bit. The rest of the conference was sales ramblings or about casual games or how Nintendo was "serious" about online just because they had it or Iwata speaking about casual games.
-The main complaint with the Wii is its GAMES. For the most part, the PS3 and 360 have the same types of games as the PC. They only don't have ones that can't be played without the keyboard and mouse. And Spore is later coming to consoles.
-Yes, it appears I missed where he said that.
This post remind me alot of Foaming Panda. You just cushion the blow a little for the Wii fans to not feel hurt. Great Job. Like FP, I disagree wiith you. I see nothing wrong in Nintendo grabing a new audience of gamers. If you actually saw one of Reggie's powerpoint charts, the gaming industry in the past 6 months has risen 46% in the US, 42% in Europe, and 114% in Japan. 69% of that is from Nintendo. Gaming is becoming the forefront of entertainment beating out Movies, Music, and books. Most of these new gamers (casuals) will likely become hardcore gamers, and enjoy systems like the PC and the PS3 later down the road. You simple have to applaud Nintendo for expanding the market like they have.IbukiNinja
Foaming Panda hated gaming period. He wanted to see videogames turn into books. I absolutely love the medium of videogames, I believe it goes three steps beyond what a film can do. Look at Pulp Fiction - it communicated *volumes* about each of the characters, without ever having to spending a chapter describing a character's past.
Videogames can go beyond this - and many modern games *have*. Look at Metal Gear Solid 4 and tell me Kojima isn't trying to tell a story here. Look at Ikaruga or even Geometry Wars and tell me something *unique* - something that is impossible in any other medium - has not been created? Can you replicate an arcade game with another medium? No. Can you do a better job of creating an immersive epic experience with any genre outside of videogaming? Not very well.
Wii Fitness is something that could have been done with a DVD player and an exercise mat. It is not a *celebration* of the medium, and it is not the direction I want to see gaming go in.
And Nintendo isn't expanding the market, they're simply shifting it. I don't want to insult your intelligence, so let me just put it this way:
Your mom buys a Jane Fonda workout DVD. She enjoys it. She goes back to the store to buy another DVD. This time she buys a Tae Bo workout DVD. Now, based on what you've seen - do you have evidence to demonstrate that your mom is going to become a hardcore horror movie fan in ten years?
This is what Nintendo is doing - these "non-gamers" aren't going to become hardcore gamers in a decade, they aren't "falling in love" with the medium, it's simply a novelty that has been presented in a way they're comfortable with, with no regard for it being a different medium. In a decade these gamers will either be playing the same "non-games", or more likely, will have moved on to something else.
Nintendo *themselves* has essentially said this - they're "sending out satellites" not stretching the market. These satellites don't "expand" the market - they simply gather resources (money) and beam it back to Nintendo. Nintendo then uses that money to make more of these "satellite" games - they're shifting their operations to a market that doesn't include me, and frankly they will only come back when the resources (money) of the non-gaming market have been tapped. They will not be bringing those non-gamers with them.
If that market is *never* tapped out - if developing for the traditional "non-gamer" becomes the lucrative market - then that is where they will have shifted the medium, and the traditional "hardcore / casual" gamers will no longer be able to buy what they once called a "Nintendo game" - it will simply no longer exist.
Nintendo Seems to forget that their are 8 million hardcore gamers in the US markets alone. They also forget that the hardcore audience is willing to spend WAAYY more money on games. Sure, a causal may pick up 3 games per year, But a Hardcore Gamer, such as my self, will pick up any where from 15 to 30 games a year, I personally buy around 27 games a year. So sure, their may be more causuals, but the hardcore audience is going to be buyign 10 times the amount of titles.
Nintendo Seems to forget that their are 8 million hardcore gamers in the US markets alone. They also forget that the hardcore audience is willing to spend WAAYY more money on games. Sure, a causal may pick up 3 games per year, But a Hardcore Gamer, such as my self, will pick up any where from 15 to 30 games a year, I personally buy around 27 games a year. So sure, their may be more causuals, but the hardcore audience is going to be buyign 10 times the amount of titles.
mathew952
I guess you'd be interested in the 14 game-list I listed in the other thread then...
Is that why the Wii's list of million-selling games puts the PS3's to shame?Nintendo Seems to forget that their are 8 million hardcore gamers in the US markets alone. They also forget that the hardcore audience is willing to spend WAAYY more money on games. Sure, a causal may pick up 3 games per year, But a Hardcore Gamer, such as my self, will pick up any where from 15 to 30 games a year, I personally buy around 27 games a year. So sure, their may be more causuals, but the hardcore audience is going to be buyign 10 times the amount of titles.
mathew952
I admire you for putting time into writing something good an in depth that says what you said.
The stuff you are saying is stuff that I've been thinking and totally agree with.
I'm not afraid at all to even say that Wii games so far suck, the Wiimote isn't fun to use, and 250 bucks is a ripoff for the system my brother and apparently many, many other gamers haven't been playing since they beat Zelda.
Can someone please tell me how watered down PC ports and PC inferior shooters made by Western console developers *who have always sucked* are the way of the "gamer"?
No really someone please answer my question.
This post remind me alot of Foaming Panda. You just cushion the blow a little for the Wii fans to not feel hurt. Great Job. Like FP, I disagree wiith you. I see nothing wrong in Nintendo grabing a new audience of gamers. If you actually saw one of Reggie's powerpoint charts, the gaming industry in the past 6 months has risen 46% in the US, 42% in Europe, and 114% in Japan. 69% of that is from Nintendo. Gaming is becoming the forefront of entertainment beating out Movies, Music, and books. Most of these new gamers (casuals) will likely become hardcore gamers, and enjoy systems like the PC and the PS3 later down the road. You simple have to applaud Nintendo for expanding the market like they have.IbukiNinja
Agreed.
[QUOTE="mathew952"]Is that why the Wii's list of million-selling games puts the PS3's to shame?Nintendo Seems to forget that their are 8 million hardcore gamers in the US markets alone. They also forget that the hardcore audience is willing to spend WAAYY more money on games. Sure, a causal may pick up 3 games per year, But a Hardcore Gamer, such as my self, will pick up any where from 15 to 30 games a year, I personally buy around 27 games a year. So sure, their may be more causuals, but the hardcore audience is going to be buyign 10 times the amount of titles.
TNT_Slug
Sales is not an indication of quality, though the Xbox 360 has provided a more lucrative market so far for third parties than the Wii has. If this changes, however, the games coming from many of the big name publishers will look quite different. The PS3 market has been hurt by the high pricetag on the console. $600 - and even $500 - is a lot to ask for a system, regardless of its features.
The saddest thing about the "non-gaming" shift of Nintendo is that hardcore gaming has become more expensive. In essence, there is no new "sub $300" console on the market right now that caters to the traditional gamer.
I loved your post. You hit the nail on the head. Who could ever envision a world where Mario can run as fast as Sonic??? What are they smoking??? He's a plumber from New York for crying out loud. They ruined all nostalgia that people have when they do stupid crap like that. The Wii fit is whatever to me, but that Sonic vs Mario really is a disgrace and a personal insult to me.
They started to lose my respect with Luigi's Mansion. If I had to hear Luigi say "Hellooo?" or "Maaaario??" one more time, I was going to head over to Nintendo myself and go Lt Hale on them. Luigi's mansion was when I realized that this is all Nintendo wants to do - put the same characters in different situations. Mario is officially to gaming what Vince Vaughn is to acting - a goofy chubby guy put in an awkward situation.
Nintendo is becoming its own enemy by destroying beloved characters and franchises. It's disgusting how they're squeezing every last drop out of Mario, Pokemon, and to a lesser extent, Link.
The games are great, yes, but do you really need to saturate your lineup with Mario Kart, Super Paper Mario, Mario football, Mario soccer, Mario flies a plane, Mario grocery, Mario takes a sh!t??? Give it a rest!
I agree with you 100 + 10 %. Good-bye Nintendo.
Can someone please tell me how watered down PC ports and PC inferior shooters made by Western console developers *who have always sucked* are the way of the "gamer"?
No really someone please answer my question.
[QUOTE="IbukiNinja"]This post remind me alot of Foaming Panda. You just cushion the blow a little for the Wii fans to not feel hurt. Great Job. Like FP, I disagree wiith you. I see nothing wrong in Nintendo grabing a new audience of gamers. If you actually saw one of Reggie's powerpoint charts, the gaming industry in the past 6 months has risen 46% in the US, 42% in Europe, and 114% in Japan. 69% of that is from Nintendo. Gaming is becoming the forefront of entertainment beating out Movies, Music, and books. Most of these new gamers (casuals) will likely become hardcore gamers, and enjoy systems like the PC and the PS3 later down the road. You simple have to applaud Nintendo for expanding the market like they have.Dencore
Agreed.
Short but sweet - Halo 1,2: and 3 if PC gamers are lucky and now Gears are ports from 360 to PC ! That's enough right there to show what you have stated is false !Try again !
Can someone please tell me how watered down PC ports and PC inferior shooters made by Western console developers *who have always sucked* are the way of the "gamer"?
No really someone please answer my question.
[QUOTE="IbukiNinja"]This post remind me alot of Foaming Panda. You just cushion the blow a little for the Wii fans to not feel hurt. Great Job. Like FP, I disagree wiith you. I see nothing wrong in Nintendo grabing a new audience of gamers. If you actually saw one of Reggie's powerpoint charts, the gaming industry in the past 6 months has risen 46% in the US, 42% in Europe, and 114% in Japan. 69% of that is from Nintendo. Gaming is becoming the forefront of entertainment beating out Movies, Music, and books. Most of these new gamers (casuals) will likely become hardcore gamers, and enjoy systems like the PC and the PS3 later down the road. You simple have to applaud Nintendo for expanding the market like they have.Dencore
Agreed.
Can you prove conclusively that Nintendo has expanded the market, rather than simply shifted it? No. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these gamers ever "become hardcore" - in fact, what we're seeing here is Nintendo abandoning the traditional market in favor of the untapped "non-gamers".
That is what the "blue ocean" strategy is - that's how it works - and this is what they've done. Fans of the c lassic Nintendo are left high-and-dry in favor of this new audience. Attacking me, or comparing me to FP (who frankly, disliked all gaming) is simply an ignorant means of avoiding have to confront on uncomfortable reality.
Nintendo has changed, the games they're releasing have changed, and I frankly don't like it. They showcased Wii Fitness, they showcased YouTube videos... they spent more time on sales charts, YouTube videos, demographics discussion, "the zapper", Wii fitness, and saying "we already have online" (essentially they avoided saying "we're going to improve the online" - they apparently feel their online is adequate) than they did showing any of their other games.
Where did they show gameplay of Mario Galaxy they had not already shown? All I saw was them putting up two Nintendo fans from a Nintendo fansite to play a little Phantom Hourglass and Metroid Prime 3 - yet this was *far* from being the focus of their presentation, and Phantom Hourglass is a casualized title aimed at getting a different kind of gamer.
The focus of their presentation was on the "non-gamer", and saying how succesful they were (financially) for targeting this gamer. The talking NES should have been somewhat of a giveaway of what was coming (apologies for CJL for not seeing that earlier) but I gave them a chance, and they frankly showcased one of the most disgusting examples of what gaming should *not* be that I've ever seen.
E3 2007 was a requiem mass for c lassic Nintendo.
Good well thought outpost. I agree with you and this has been my opinion of the whole "Blue Ocean" strategy since 2004.
For me Nintendo has made the wrong choice in how they handle their casual and hardcore customers. Take the PS2 for the casual we have Eye Toy, Buzz, Singstar and a multitude of other games that are very much about playing in a social group etc, put short a lot of casuals love it. Yet for the hardcore we have MGS, God of War. Devil May Cry etc. Sony and their partners have gone a long way to pleasing both crowds and this is why they have sold over 110million PS2s.
Yet Nintendo are trying to grab the casuals with games like Nintendogs, Wii Sports and Wii Fit and then slowly push their attention towards their more hardcore games like Mario and Zelda. Yet so the transition between the casual and hardcore game isn't too much of a leap for the average casual gamer; Nintendo have diluted their franchises. Look at Twilight Princess and New Super Mario Bros they are just not as good as their previous titles.
For me getting more people playing games is a good thing but not at the cost of the hardcore games. Nintendo are damaging themselves some what and forgetting the main customers that got them in the position of power that they currently hold. For once it seems Sony are setting the good example.
Can you prove conclusively that Nintendo has expanded the market, rather than simply shifted it? No. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these gamers ever "become hardcore" - in fact, what we're seeing here is Nintendo abandoning the traditional market in favor of the untapped "non-gamers".Umm. I started out as a non-gamer, then I played text-based adventures. Then I played Nintendo, and I became somewhat "hardcore".
subrosian
Secondly, YES, there is evidence that the market is being expanded. That's what all the damn charts were showing us.
I have been saying this for some time, and it has been misinterpreted over and over again. I've been called an elitist, biased, a hater, whatever....
Nintendo is hurting gaming.Frankly, what Nintendo is doing right now is appealing to a market that's not us - the longtime gamer - but a market that is *them* - people who don't like videogames - people who play things like DDR, Guitar Hero, and Jane Fonda workout tapes. They shoved us aside with the Wii - in fact, look at Reggies' comments for the past two years - they *are no longer interested* in catering to us.
I didn't listen to the 2006 E3 Press Confrence, but I did watch this years one live, and I didn't hear Reggie say that Nintendo "didn't want" the long-time gamer and that they weren't catering for us. He said that the Wii was trying to accomodate everyones tastes and preferences ... they are trying to be the PS2 of this generation. The PS2 was the system for (disputed) most casuals, but it also had the gems which kept the long-time gamer happy. Another thing is that some people may like playing games like Gutar Hero as well as playing the latest Hard-Core game ...
At their press conference, Nintendo kept telling us "you're wrong". Over and over, in fact. They told us what to think. They told us "oh, you're wrong, this is gaming for everyone" - they essentially acted like "hehehe you're stupid, you don't get it." The reality is, they know this isn't gaming for us, they know we don't enjoy these games - but they figure, "hey, if we can tell some Nintendo diehards that we're making gaming *better*, maybe we can drag them along".Reggie was saying this throughout the press confrence to combat the romours going around which were portraying Nintendo as a 'casual' company. Sure, there might be games like WiiFit on the Wii, but there will also be games which will aim at the long-time gamer market.
Everything they're doing right now is about catering to sales from a lucrative market - a market we've been calling "casuals" - but in retrospect we should have kept calling "non-gamers". Casuals *used to be* a market that pumped their chests for Madden and Halo - what we have here is a new beast entirely.
There is now a different definition of 'casuals'. The old definition would basically mean '15-25 year-old males with a life', but now means 'anyone who plays games as a hobby'. Whilst last generation it was considered 'Halo' and 'GTA' to be the 'casual games of choice', this year Nintendo has redesigned their perspective of the term 'casual', thus creating games to appeal to everyone. I mean, anyone of any age or gender can pick up Brain Training .... but can a 90 year-old pick up and play Halo properly ... and would theywant to?For a minute, just concede that Nintendo doesn't care. Why are they harming gaming? Because they control so many nostalgic series. I had to give this up *a long time ago*. As an early Sega fan, I had to accept that my favorite games - such as Sonic the Hedgehog - were no longer the same. I had to come to terms with the parent company Sega losing their minds - Sonic 3D Blast helped a great deal to drive that reality home, and by the time I played Sonic Shuffle and Sonic Adventure 2, it became easier to accept that Sega was going downhill.
Put this to you ... 'Nintendo doesn't care' ... Nintendo isn't harming the gaming industry, it's expanding it.It is creating new games for a new audience who would rather virtually walking a dog then shooting aliens. Fine, I'm the first to admit that if video games were in every household (with healthy food) the world will be a better place. BUT if this means that Nintendo doesn't give the long-term gamer their due, then Nintendo is practically 'giving to one but taking for another' and should remember hardcoress make up for about 30% of all video game sales.
Nintendo isn't dying, they were though, they were dying, losing marketshare, and they found this huge new market with the Wii... and unfortunately, much like Sega, they hold our old favorites hostage. So what do we get? Our best games come with concessions - Metroid Prime 3 will be built around "the zapper", goes back to stacked beams, and features basically a "turbo charged" mode -why? All in the interest of making the bastion of Nintendo's "hardcore" catalog still sell to some of the same people who will buy Wii Fitness.I admit it, I love to get into a story. I love to loose my free weekends to a video game, spend countless hours in the morning to finish the story of the game. I think if any add-ons are worked effectively into the story of the game it is good. Things which are 'tacked on' are bad. Where am I going with this ... well, if Nintendo wishes to 'casualise' series like 'Metroid Prime', first of all they need to think of how to do it, then impliment it into the storyline PROPERLY. As for what Nintendo are doing with MP3, they are trying to reclaim the greatness of the original MP for the GC and build apon it, adding new features as well as a new story.
They are trying to blend the ****c franchises into the Wii Sports / Play / Fitness marketThis as been going on for ages, but if Nintendo has a way of doing this without jeprodising the story of the game, then I'd say go for it ...
Twilight Princess was one of the easiest Zelda games I've ever played, Super Paper Mario was time-consuming, but not exactly *challenging*, and Super Smash Brawl might not feature online gameplay.
I'd have to agree with the Twilight Princess one, but here's the thing. If long-time gamers have been playing games for 20-odd years, or even 10-odd years like me, then obviously your skills will increase as a gamer. For example, I used to think that Super Mario 64 was hard, yet I can get through collecting 120 Stars without dieing now. Point is that if you want your favourite franchises to stay, they have got to sell, and if they continually get harder to meet the 'long-time gamer's' needs, then sales will fall and the franchise will go the way of the history books. It's very difficult to make a game more 'difficult' for the long-time gamer, yet make money to justify the continuted development of the series, so you make it time consuming but not any harder and that's the game ... and by the way, I thought that online was more of a 'casual' way of gaming?!?
And that was, by far, one of the worst parts of the show - "made you didn't notice that we already have online gameplay?" ... maybe Nintendo didn't notice that PC, Xbox 360, and PS3 have services that are lightyears ahead of what I do on a DS or Wii? I don't feel like I have "the world" in the palm of my hand when I play Mario Kart online on my DS - I feel like I might as well be playing against the AI - I can't identify if I'm really playing the same people again, there's no ranking, I can't talk to my opponents, I can't see my opponents - where is the online social interaction?
Online is something which Nintendo really needs to work on but don't seem to. But then again, the fundamental thing is that video games are 'for everyone' on the Wii, and the majority of people would want a 'play and run' ****of game which will mean all they have to do is connect and play. Sure, I would love to have a Gamespot-like profile on my Wii, but won't that just distract from the main point .... the games?
I feel that Nintendo has realized that online doesn't matter to increase DS / Wii sales, so they're not doing it - that simply they said "building a service like PSN costs too much money, and look at the people buying a Wii, they don't care." I do care, however, it's important for me. I have friends and family all over the world - being able to see their face and hear their voice while I play is vital - it makes it so I'm playing a racing game with my little brother, even though he's in another city - it makes it so I can talk to the other gamers in my Halo clan, even though they're in Denmark. Nintendo's issue isn't that they "don't get it" - it's that their current salesbase says "I can go to YouTube and MySpace on my Wii - Wii does it all!"
This is something again which I think Nintendo should take more time into. They want to expand the audience and make the user feel more involved, but they don't improve the game by adding all these features. I can see where they come from 'they don't add to the game', but it will add to the personality. When online and I'm talking to someone it makes me feel a lot more involved in the game ... I want to beat this guy into the ground, it adds a face, a voice, an emotion to the feel of the game ... playing games on the Nintendo DS Wi-Fi for Mario Kart DS feels like it's just another computer ...
Nintendo is in a situation where, quite frankly, we, the longtime gamers, are supporting them out of nostalgia. If the actual *games* Nintendo is releasing - Metroid, Mario, Smash, et cetera - were the same games, but with new characters and titles, would we be buying them. Honestly, look in your heart and tell me you'd buy MP3 without the "M". This doesn't just apply to Nintendo - Halo 3 *looks awful* by comparisson to other FPS titles coming out this year - it hasn't *evolved* enough - the FPS genre moves and improve so quickly - yet Halo 3 looks archaic. Yet MP3 looks *even more* archaic, and we support it, why? Because it's Metroid. I'm as guilty as the next guy of doing this.This is called 'brandpower' and it is something which Nintendo has worked on to create. As for what you are saying, I personally buy games which have a history of being fun and having a great story. This ultimately means imrpovement to the game from the game before it. As of now, I've seen that there has been a lot of changes in MP3 from MP2, both graphically (to a minor extent) and in the way the game is played. As for Halo 3, to me it adds nothing near as much new. Halo 3 might add a few new levels in single-player mode to challenge you, and then add a couple of new weapons for multiplayer (most we have seen now are rehashes on Halo 2). But take a Wii game like Mario Kart Wii, people could compare that to what I've said with Halo 3, but that is for a later topic (with a higher character count) ...
I'm sorry, this all might not be the level of logic or cohesiveness I usually have - I have no intention of becoming a fanboy or a hater or anything else, but I'm done with Nintendo - I am washing my hands of them. For me it's about more than the games, it's also about the vision behind those games, about what you're trying to do with them. Yesterday's showcase was a disgusting display of chest-pounding arrogance and a clear showing that Nintendo does not view games as art.But game's aren't an art. When was the last time you immersed yourself in the gripping storyline of 'art'? When was the last time you called books 'art', movies 'art', music 'art', TV 'art'? What I'm saying is that art is something which you look at, video games you get many things from other entertainment mediums .... the gripping story which can come from a good book, the visuals of a good movie, the sound of great music and the variety of television. Sure, I'm not saying all games have all of this, but a good game should have all of these IMO, yet another persons opinion (ie casuals') would consider video games as being a medium of interactivity ...
"Games are for everyone" doesn't mean you should stop making games for me. I always thought, as a kid when I played Gameboy, that Nintendo would grow up with me, and they haven't. Sega and Nintendo, hand-in-hand walked me down a brightly coloured path to living gaming - and now both of them are gone. Nintendo... Sega... gone. I thought they were gone last year, and I gave them one last chance here, I tried to be open-minded, but I can't do it anymore.
I cannot accept Nintendo's vision for gaming. I do not support the idea that titles such as Wii Fitness should be showcased as videogames.The world of video games are changing. I personally don't consider Wii Fit to be a game, but an activity. A game has what I explained above, an activity is something which has the interactivity of games but is for 'real life' uses, unlike conventional games.
I'm done Nintendo. You do what you want to do, you will never get another dollar from me. Say good-bye to the tens of thousands I've spent on your products over the years. Frankly, it's my finest wish that every other longtime Nintendo fan do the same. Hardcore gamers represent a great deal of software sales - as long as we continue to support their "blended" market - where they make *just enough* of a hardcore spin on ****c franchises to tempt us, they will be able to keep being insanely profitable.
subrosian
The fact is, I wpuld but I don't want to. Sure, in the future (18 months or so) I will be more hard-core, but now I can only play games for two weeks every 3 months (school holidays) and this means that I may as well stick with Nintendo's trickle of pure hard-core games until then and then I will re-invest in a 360 or something ....
I'm done. I'm sick and tired of having to hold my breath and pray - Sony this year "got it" - they were humble, they showed games, and they said "thanks for being here guys." Nintendo doesn't care. Sonic and Mario standing together in the same game should be enough of a warning sign to longtime gamers - hegehogs and plumbers running down a track together (at the same height, might I add, though Sega keeps changing how tall Sonic is every game, it's getting annoying) is, I believe, one of the signs of the apocalypse.
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Nintendo's world has ended, and I'm done with it. Bye, see ya. Time to get a second or third job, because the future of gaming as I enjoy it does not lie in your competively priced "plug-n-play" remote controlled gaming box.
i was about to flame you, then i realized what a great post you actually had!
congrats!!!!
[QUOTE="IbukiNinja"]This post remind me alot of Foaming Panda. You just cushion the blow a little for the Wii fans to not feel hurt. Great Job. Like FP, I disagree wiith you. I see nothing wrong in Nintendo grabing a new audience of gamers. If you actually saw one of Reggie's powerpoint charts, the gaming industry in the past 6 months has risen 46% in the US, 42% in Europe, and 114% in Japan. 69% of that is from Nintendo. Gaming is becoming the forefront of entertainment beating out Movies, Music, and books. Most of these new gamers (casuals) will likely become hardcore gamers, and enjoy systems like the PC and the PS3 later down the road. You simple have to applaud Nintendo for expanding the market like they have.subrosian
Foaming Panda hated gaming period. He wanted to see videogames turn into books. I absolutely love the medium of videogames, I believe it goes three steps beyond what a film can do. Look at Pulp Fiction - it communicated *volumes* about each of the characters, without ever having to spending a chapter describing a character's past.
Videogames can go beyond this - and many modern games *have*. Look at Metal Gear Solid 4 and tell me Kojima isn't trying to tell a story here. Look at Ikaruga or even Geometry Wars and tell me something *unique* - something that is impossible in any other medium - has not been created? Can you replicate an arcade game with another medium? No. Can you do a better job of creating an immersive epic experience with any genre outside of videogaming? Not very well.
Wii Fitness is something that could have been done with a DVD player and an exercise mat. It is not a *celebration* of the medium, and it is not the direction I want to see gaming go in.
And Nintendo isn't expanding the market, they're simply shifting it. I don't want to insult your intelligence, so let me just put it this way:
Your mom buys a Jane Fonda workout DVD. She enjoys it. She goes back to the store to buy another DVD. This time she buys a Tae Bo workout DVD. Now, based on what you've seen - do you have evidence to demonstrate that your mom is going to become a hardcore horror movie fan in ten years?
This is what Nintendo is doing - these "non-gamers" aren't going to become hardcore gamers in a decade, they aren't "falling in love" with the medium, it's simply a novelty that has been presented in a way they're comfortable with, with no regard for it being a different medium. In a decade these gamers will either be playing the same "non-games", or more likely, will have moved on to something else.
Nintendo *themselves* has essentially said this - they're "sending out satellites" not stretching the market. These satellites don't "expand" the market - they simply gather resources (money) and beam it back to Nintendo. Nintendo then uses that money to make more of these "satellite" games - they're shifting their operations to a market that doesn't include me, and frankly they will only come back when the resources (money) of the non-gaming market have been tapped. They will not be bringing those non-gamers with them.
If that market is *never* tapped out - if developing for the traditional "non-gamer" becomes the lucrative market - then that is where they will have shifted the medium, and the traditional "hardcore / casual" gamers will no longer be able to buy what they once called a "Nintendo game" - it will simply no longer exist.
What are those chances that Mom who does Tae-bo end up watching Sin City 50 times? Well about as much chance of me playing duck hunt on my NES, and now one of the hardcore fighter gamers in the US. No, not everyone will make that jump to hadcore land.There is a transition phase. How did I go from shooting ducks to mastering 15 hit combos in Street Fighter? How can Mom go from Wii Fitness to crying over the next love story from Final Fantasy? Your fear is Nintendo forgot about you. I'm hear to tell you no they did not. You call it a satlellite tactic, but to me it's like a wave.
I think a lot of ppl forgot what e3 is. it's a trade show for ppl in the industry. In fact that's part of the reason why they toned it down this year. they wanted it to be a more serious industry insider event rather than a media circus. there's a reason why MS and Nintendo put up charts and stats. that's what ppl in the industry (business ppl) want to see. sure a trailer montage might entertain them for a bit but they don't make huge decisions based on those. I can understand why sony avoided a lot of the stats though. the ps3 just isn't doing well compared the 360 and Wii.
haha, i love little rants like these. Yeah, Nintendo's hurting gaming. That's why they're bringing out all of their hardcore gamer titles all within 6 months of each other: because they hate us.
rofl.
Michael85
All? You mean like all ~3 of them? Take a look at 360 and the PS3 lists of "real" games and weep.
[QUOTE="Michael85"]haha, i love little rants like these. Yeah, Nintendo's hurting gaming. That's why they're bringing out all of their hardcore gamer titles all within 6 months of each other: because they hate us.
rofl.
Sairony
All? You mean like all ~3 of them? Take a look at 360 and the PS3 lists of "real" games and weep.
They've barely changed :| Unless you're talking about Viva Pinata: Party Animals...
And this is a reaction to Nintendo's E3? From what I've gathered, it wasn't good, but they couldn't have said anything they haven't said before.
WARNING: RANT ABOUT HARDCORE GAMERS AHEAD.
People seem to think "games for everyone" mean "games for everyone except us," as if there's no way to actually make "game for everyone" happen. The only thing standing in the way of this is the elitism of hardcore gamers. We see accessibility as "dumbing down," we see games that our family members can play and claim that they take no skill. If you want to find fault in anyone, people, look at yourselves.
I agree with those that say the videogames are becoming music, but not for the same reason. With music, wealso overrate what few people know about, because if we extol the virtues of some random deathcorespeedthrashextrememetal band, we feel as though we're part of this "hardcore" group. Why is this so important? It's not. The music everyone else listens to is boring to us, because, well, it's popular. And who cares about that? It's the same reason we bash Madden all the time, despite it being a perfectly fine football game.
The funny thing is, when you question these people about their taste in music, the usual response is that we should respect their tastes, which is the exact opposite of what gamers would say, I bet.
Anyway, Nintendo has always been catering to more than just the hardcore gamer, and that's a good thing. We just want them to ourselves, so we throw a huge tantrum like little kids.
P.S. This MP3 news...can someone linkify it for me? I've had internet problems the past few days.
[QUOTE="Michael85"]haha, i love little rants like these. Yeah, Nintendo's hurting gaming. That's why they're bringing out all of their hardcore gamer titles all within 6 months of each other: because they hate us.
rofl.
Sairony
All? You mean like all ~3 of them? Take a look at 360 and the PS3 lists of "real" games and weep.
They both only have a few "real" games that aren't new IP's. which pretty much means half of them will probably flop. where as wii has about four of each-ssbb, mp3, smg,and then for new-no more heroes, disaster day of crysis and sadness. 360 and especially ps3 can't top that list real easy.
I think a lot of ppl forgot what e3 is. it's a trade show for ppl in the industry. In fact that's part of the reason why they toned it down this year. they wanted it to be a more serious industry insider event rather than a media circus. there's a reason why MS and Nintendo put up charts and stats. that's what ppl in the industry (business ppl) want to see. sure a trailer montage might entertain them for a bit but they don't make huge decisions based on those. I can understand why sony avoided a lot of the stats though. the ps3 just isn't doing well compared the 360 and Wii.
Ontain
While that might be the official answer it's not true at all. E3 is still the large event for hyping your line up and fiddle with the media. All of the mainstream media was there and the consumers are watching. There's already tons of industry conferences which are larger and better at it than E3 will ever be, AGC & GDC for example.
[QUOTE="Ontain"]I think a lot of ppl forgot what e3 is. it's a trade show for ppl in the industry. In fact that's part of the reason why they toned it down this year. they wanted it to be a more serious industry insider event rather than a media circus. there's a reason why MS and Nintendo put up charts and stats. that's what ppl in the industry (business ppl) want to see. sure a trailer montage might entertain them for a bit but they don't make huge decisions based on those. I can understand why sony avoided a lot of the stats though. the ps3 just isn't doing well compared the 360 and Wii.
Sairony
While that might be the official answer it's not true at all. E3 is still the large event for hyping your line up and fiddle with the media. All of the mainstream media was there and the consumers are watching. There's already tons of industry conferences which are larger and better at it than E3 will ever be, AGC & GDC for example.
it is the first year after all. it'll take some time because change seeps in. but it was a lot more subdued than we've seen in the past that's for sure. and who knows, it might eventually return to what it once was if enough ppl don't like the new changes.
What are those chances that Mom who does Tae-bo end up watching Sin City 50 times? Well about as much chance of me playing duck hunt on my NES, and now one of the hardcore fighter gamers in the US. No, not everyone will make that jump to hadcore land.There is a transition phase. How did I go from shooting ducks to mastering 15 hit combos in Street Fighter? How can Mom go from Wii Fitness to crying over the next love story from Final Fantasy? Your fear is Nintendo forgot about you. I'm hear to tell you no they did not. You call it a satlellite tactic, but to me it's like a wave.
IbukiNinja
It's a wave good-bye. I am reminded of "Slave to the Wage" by Placebo. Nintendo stopped racing the rats, blue ocean-ed, and left us stranded. I'm sorry, but I won't be waiting for Nintendo's "glorious return" to hardcore gaming. In fact, this is not what Nintendo wants - if these "non-gamers" were going to become hardcore gamers, they would be running to the competition at a break-neck pace. Nintendo knows this won't happen.
But, far more importantly for me - as much as you keep claiming that Nintendo is doing "good" for the industry, what are they doing for me? Abandoning the hardcore focus hurts the game selection for Nitnendo platforms that I have available. It damages the chances of me ever seeing another Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid.
This isn't about a transition period - it's about jumping ship - and yes, Nintendo forgot about me a long time ago - it's called "we delayed Twilight Princess for two years so it could be on the Wii." Interesting choice Nintendo, so what about me? I bought a Gamecube at LAUNCH and supported you financially for five years by buying your games - nice slap in the face.
The E3 2007 show was the requiem for the ****c Nintendo that cared about the hardcore market. Reggie's claims that this is "gaming for everyone" are simply attempts to keep the (financially rewarding) hardcore gamers sedated, compliant consumers within the flock.
I have it with Nintendo, I've made that clear, and anyone who calls themselves a "hardcore" gamer who is not offended by the attitude Nintendo has taken towards us, or is willing to wait "ten years" (I have no idea why this number keeps coming up from Wii supporters... but it keeps getting used by different posters) for Nintendo to swing their focus back towards our corner of the market has far more paitence than me.
"Say good-bye to the tens of thousands I've spent on your products over the years. Frankly, it's my finest wish that every other longtime Nintendo fan do the same."
Well it's not going to happen. My interest in gaming has been going down hill through the years and I can tell you that the Wii and the DS brought another layer that I'm actually interested in seeing its growth. And that growth complements perfectly the same growth the competition is headed in this generation.
Your post is very well written and you present your reasons in a more understandable and accepteble fashion then many people in here. But, none the less, it's composed of opinionated reasons.
I have said this numerous times, my interest in the library of games for the Wii surpass the number of the quantity of Gamecube games that I had in its first 3 to 4 years. That is a good sign by the way from where I'm coming from... We'll see if the console actually goes the way in wich its strategy has already shown to go with the DS. Yes I know it's a console not a handheld and yet I can easily relate the two more then the Wii to Gamecube or to the competition, you can actually see that by its sucess.
The console is receiving better support then its predecessors, it is completely different from many things developers have worked on and said developers acessed the Wii's development kits later then the competition, its predecessors were at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to market dominance and the console is at its infancy still... I in all seriousness, do not see this whole exaggerated destruction of the industry with reasons that have happened before... only because a console is doing the same another one did years ago, wich is to try making the industry lead into a more mainstream road.
The difference? Is that somewhat of what might happen with the downgrade you people so fear, has already happened to me in many areas years ago... And I have a lot of reasons for enjoying gaming less and less as time goes by. However, the Wii and DS are systems that are pushing the industry into a mainstream market while following an absolutely new direction and one that again I'm actually interested in seeing growing.
[QUOTE="IbukiNinja"]What are those chances that Mom who does Tae-bo end up watching Sin City 50 times? Well about as much chance of me playing duck hunt on my NES, and now one of the hardcore fighter gamers in the US. No, not everyone will make that jump to hadcore land.There is a transition phase. How did I go from shooting ducks to mastering 15 hit combos in Street Fighter? How can Mom go from Wii Fitness to crying over the next love story from Final Fantasy? Your fear is Nintendo forgot about you. I'm hear to tell you no they did not. You call it a satlellite tactic, but to me it's like a wave.
subrosian
It's a wave good-bye. I am reminded of "Slave to the Wage" by Placebo. Nintendo stopped racing the rats, blue ocean-ed, and left us stranded. I'm sorry, but I won't be waiting for Nintendo's "glorious return" to hardcore gaming. In fact, this is not what Nintendo wants - if these "non-gamers" were going to become hardcore gamers, they would be running to the competition at a break-neck pace. Nintendo knows this won't happen.
But, far more importantly for me - as much as you keep claiming that Nintendo is doing "good" for the industry, what are they doing for me? Abandoning the hardcore focus hurts the game selection for Nitnendo platforms that I have available. It damages the chances of me ever seeing another Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid.
This isn't about a transition period - it's about jumping ship - and yes, Nintendo forgot about me a long time ago - it's called "we delayed Twilight Princess for two years so it could be on the Wii." Interesting choice Nintendo, so what about me? I bought a Gamecube at LAUNCH and supported you financially for five years by buying your games - nice slap in the face.
The E3 2007 show was the requiem for the ****c Nintendo that cared about the hardcore market. Reggie's claims that this is "gaming for everyone" are simply attempts to keep the (financially rewarding) hardcore gamers sedated, compliant consumers within the flock.
I have it with Nintendo, I've made that clear, and anyone who calls themselves a "hardcore" gamer who is not offended by the attitude Nintendo has taken towards us, or is willing to wait "ten years" (I have no idea why this number keeps coming up from Wii supporters... but it keeps getting used by different posters) for Nintendo to swing their focus back towards our corner of the market has far more paitence than me.
Heh... last time I checked no Nintendo franchise has went casual. And only the ones are the casual are the new ones... You still have the chance to see the next Ocarina of Time. You act as if just because WiiFit was announced, it's the end of the gaming world... They still make Zelda, they still make Metroid, they still make Mario.
haha, i love little rants like these. Yeah, Nintendo's hurting gaming. That's why they're bringing out all of their hardcore gamer titles all within 6 months of each other: because they hate us.
rofl.
Michael85
all of them, huh? During the conference the casual games were showcased far more than the hardcore. Supersmash bros lasted only like 1 - 2 mins, while mario lasted around 3. MP3 was only around 3 - 5 minutes as well, when thier youtube video montage lasted for a total of like 10 mins throughout the preformance. Not to mention Wiifit which was the CLIMAX and lasted around 10 minutes as well, maybe even 15
[QUOTE="Michael85"]haha, i love little rants like these. Yeah, Nintendo's hurting gaming. That's why they're bringing out all of their hardcore gamer titles all within 6 months of each other: because they hate us.
rofl.
Echo13791
all of them, huh? During the conference the casual games were showcased far more than the hardcore. Supersmash bros lasted only like 1 - 2 mins, while mario lasted around 3. MP3 was only around 3 - 5 minutes as well, when thier youtube video montage lasted for a total of like 10 mins throughout the preformance. Not to mention Wiifit which was the CLIMAX and lasted around 10 minutes as well, maybe even 15
Wiifit... 15 minutes?! It was more like 40 minutes...
Subrosian, you just seem angry. Think about what you're saying exactly.
You're on this whole cheesy "oh, goodbye, goodbye,,," for what? A lousy E3? It doesn't seem like you to be so impetuous.
I missed Nintendo's conference, so if there's something big I haven't heard about, fill me in. Because right now this seems too childish, especially coming from you.
I am assuming this rant is stemming mostly from the press conference and the TC does have some valid points, but saying that Nintendo is ruining gaming is slightly outrageous. First of all i dont own a wii, 360, or ps3 and i tend to stay out of SW due to the blatant ignorance thrown about, but this thred is different and frankly a bit refreshing imo. So anyway, it is pretty easy to say that all 3 press conferences were lackluster (and a big let down to a lot of you hardcore gamers), but E3 is no longer about the gamers, it caters to investors and developers ie. wii fit (showing wiis potential to the 3rd party) the new psp (revamping Sony's hand-held devision and appealing to investors) and i have not had time to check out the MS conference, but am assuming they followed the same lines. But to get to the point, the wii has been out for 9 months and ill give you that there has not been a game with a "hardcore" appeal, but look at the first 9 months for any system release and you'll see that no system has lot of games that appeal to the "hardcore" gamers, just because a game is difficult to beat does not make it "hardcore" game, but all im trying to say is give Nintendo some time here, just because they are tapping an expanding market does not mean they dont give damn, these party games will only last so long until their appeal wears off and then theyll give you guys what you want.g-unit248
Sony's conference was far from a letdown - they showcased games, they were humble, and they brought out Kojima to talk about his vision for Metal Gear Solid 4. They could not have done a better job of catering to the hardcore market. While they spent some time on the PSP redesign and a few of the "lesser focuses" - most of the Sony presentation revolved around their new online interface (HOME), and their upcoming games.
All in all it was refreshing. After the lackluster Microsoft press conference, and the disaster that was Nintendo's conference, Sony made me excited about *gaming* again. When Sony's conference was over, I wanted to pick up a controller and play - at the end of Nintendo's conference, I just wanted a stiff drink.
[QUOTE="IbukiNinja"]What are those chances that Mom who does Tae-bo end up watching Sin City 50 times? Well about as much chance of me playing duck hunt on my NES, and now one of the hardcore fighter gamers in the US. No, not everyone will make that jump to hadcore land.There is a transition phase. How did I go from shooting ducks to mastering 15 hit combos in Street Fighter? How can Mom go from Wii Fitness to crying over the next love story from Final Fantasy? Your fear is Nintendo forgot about you. I'm hear to tell you no they did not. You call it a satlellite tactic, but to me it's like a wave.
subrosian
It's a wave good-bye. I am reminded of "Slave to the Wage" by Placebo. Nintendo stopped racing the rats, blue ocean-ed, and left us stranded. I'm sorry, but I won't be waiting for Nintendo's "glorious return" to hardcore gaming. In fact, this is not what Nintendo wants - if these "non-gamers" were going to become hardcore gamers, they would be running to the competition at a break-neck pace. Nintendo knows this won't happen.
But, far more importantly for me - as much as you keep claiming that Nintendo is doing "good" for the industry, what are they doing for me? Abandoning the hardcore focus hurts the game selection for Nitnendo platforms that I have available. It damages the chances of me ever seeing another Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid.
This isn't about a transition period - it's about jumping ship - and yes, Nintendo forgot about me a long time ago - it's called "we delayed Twilight Princess for two years so it could be on the Wii." Interesting choice Nintendo, so what about me? I bought a Gamecube at LAUNCH and supported you financially for five years by buying your games - nice slap in the face.
The E3 2007 show was the requiem for the ****c Nintendo that cared about the hardcore market. Reggie's claims that this is "gaming for everyone" are simply attempts to keep the (financially rewarding) hardcore gamers sedated, compliant consumers within the flock.
I have it with Nintendo, I've made that clear, and anyone who calls themselves a "hardcore" gamer who is not offended by the attitude Nintendo has taken towards us, or is willing to wait "ten years" (I have no idea why this number keeps coming up from Wii supporters... but it keeps getting used by different posters) for Nintendo to swing their focus back towards our corner of the market has far more paitence than me.
I am a very patience man. So you know I've been waiting for Street Fighter 4 the past 9 years now. Not once I've sad a bad thing about Capcom. In fact I still call them the best gaming company ever. Did Capcom turn their back on me? No, I don't think so. I'm not here to change your mind on how you feel about Nintendo. I'm just here showing you that there is always two sides of a coin. Surely, you can see the "good" that is coming out of Nintendo? Also, shifting the market is impossible with the fact Sony and M$ is still in the market during the hardcore gaming. I'm also confuse on when did Nintendo become "hardcore"? To me they have always cater to casuals, but that's another topic...
To the original poster.
Stop crying who cares if they aren't focused on you. They are not in some sworn law to kiss your tail. Their are 6 billion people on the planet, and if they want to open up the gaming circle then so be it. It works out good for all of us in the long run. Few people critizing gamers etc. Nintendo has noted, that they are tired of gamers being viewed as fat and lazy people. This is were the Wii stepped in and WiiFit.
Halo for hardcore gamers? Its more of the casual market with alot of hardcore gamers as well. But just because they are appealing to casuals doesn't mean they are going to abandone the games that made them what they are. Zelda, Mario, Metroid will all probably be around after were all dead.
The heart of Nintendo's games are single player tradition. Until Nintendo gets a 1st party game worthy of online, they will probably never jump as deep as PSN or xbox live. Deal with it, and don't buy a Wii then.
So your done with Nintendo? So they lose your dollar and gain 10 dollars else where in new market. Good for Nintendo, and they have grown up with us. As a child they entertained us, and now they are helping us keep in shape and tune our brain.
Last note, The traditional games will always be here, along with the new things like WiiFit which is awesome. Looks like a fun way to compete against my wife to stay fit. I own a PS3 and love its up coming year, but Wii looks badass now. and I will be buying a Wii soon. So I guess they lost a guy like you and gained me.
Can you prove conclusively that Nintendo has expanded the market, rather than simply shifted it? No. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these gamers ever "become hardcore" - in fact, what we're seeing here is Nintendo abandoning the traditional market in favor of the untapped "non-gamers".
That is what the "blue ocean" strategy is - that's how it works - and this is what they've done. Fans of the c lassic Nintendo are left high-and-dry in favor of this new audience. Attacking me, or comparing me to FP (who frankly, disliked all gaming) is simply an ignorant means of avoiding have to confront on uncomfortable reality.
Nintendo has changed, the games they're releasing have changed, and I frankly don't like it. They showcased Wii Fitness, they showcased YouTube videos... they spent more time on sales charts, YouTube videos, demographics discussion, "the zapper", Wii fitness, and saying "we already have online" (essentially they avoided saying "we're going to improve the online" - they apparently feel their online is adequate) than they did showing any of their other games.
Where did they show gameplay of Mario Galaxy they had not already shown? All I saw was them putting up two Nintendo fans from a Nintendo fansite to play a little Phantom Hourglass and Metroid Prime 3 - yet this was *far* from being the focus of their presentation, and Phantom Hourglass is a casualized title aimed at getting a different kind of gamer.
The focus of their presentation was on the "non-gamer", and saying how succesful they were (financially) for targeting this gamer. The talking NES should have been somewhat of a giveaway of what was coming (apologies for CJL for not seeing that earlier) but I gave them a chance, and they frankly showcased one of the most disgusting examples of what gaming should *not* be that I've ever seen.
E3 2007 was a requiem mass for c lassic Nintendo.
subrosian
Yes.
Not only has the market grew as Ibuki has explained but both casual and "traditional" *they really aren't though* still dominate while there are only 4 casual games on that list. Seriously sit down and stop pulling stuff out of your butt before making these ridiculous assumptions.
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