Killzone 2 - An end to damage control!

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"][QUOTE="Synthetic_NinJI"] Thank you. The concept of paraphrasing in system wars is a hard one.Synthetic_NinJI

Anything else is quoted from me better be responding towards the statement I made, otherwise it is a "spin" and is not worth reading.

You state final sales are irrelevant

which you account for the first 2 months, which you won't do with Killzone 2.

You also state that it had a lesser budget and development time, and this was because they used the same engine as one, with a few tweaks, not a whole new engine.

1. Halo 3

2.Gears of War

3. Metal Gear Solid 4

4. Fallout 3

"Gears of War 2, for example, sold 2.5 million in one day and later sold 4 million copies in a time span of 2 months with a lesser budget and development time."

Problem with this logic is, you have to take into account that Epic used their own engine they had spent years and $$$ developing beforehand, already had a bunch of assets to use in the sequel AND when it comes to sales it's pretty obvious why Killzone hasn't done as well as the games you listed.

Call of Duty 4 for example. 4th(?) game in a well established series, sold across 3 different platforms. Hit's 10 million one year after release.

Same thing with Fallout, well established series, mulitple platforms = Great sales.

Gears 2 is different though, the first game started on a clean slate and was the first "must-have" game on the 360. So even the Gears of War franchise is better recieved than Killzone. For obvious reasons, but I'll write them out anyway. More "positive" hype, much better marketing, prequel wasn't critically panned, etc.

Why don't we wait until this month's sales comes through before crucifying the game. 2 days isn't much to work off really. Or drop the unrealistic expectations. I wouldn't mind either way.

I'd just like to add something since everyone seems a little lost when bringing up budgets

Rockstar's Budget for GTA4 is (notice I didn't use was) $100 million dollars. However, I'd like to also point out that GTA4 worldwide is at about 12 million copies sold (I thinks). Now I'm sure that R&D alone didn't cost Rockstar a hundred mil but there is more to budgets then cost of making the game.

Exactly. Why does he give Gears 2 a 2 month pass on sales and not KZ2? Syntetic_NinJI: You are running around in circles with your argument. You say "Final sales are irrelevant". Then you go on to say that your argument boils down to sales. In the end you are saying that initial (week 1) sales are what determines a flop or not for an expensive game. This is contradictory.TREAL_Since

Judging a game's status only on its first 2 days of sales in one region is a faulty argument. TREAL_Since

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]Exactly. Why does he give Gears 2 a 2 month pass on sales and not KZ2? Syntetic_NinJI: You are running around in circles with your argument. You say "Final sales are irrelevant". Then you go on to say that your argument boils down to sales. In the end you are saying that initial (week 1) sales are what determines a flop or not for an expensive game. This is contradictory.Stevo_the_gamer

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]Judging a game's status only on its first 2 days of sales in one region is a faulty argument. Synthetic_NinJI

I understand the situation well, it just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point in calling it a sales flop at all until its all said and done? I'm not saying its a success or not. I'm saying we can't call it anything until really...The game stops selling. So his argument is basically saying KZ2 is a "temporary flop" lol.TREAL_Since

The point of the matter is that in it's opening days of retail, it didn't live up to the expectations in regards to units sold. I very well seeing it selling good in March as well, but it didn't sell "spectacular" like other games who received similar marketing and hype. Granted the problem with comparing those said titles is that those games had a very well established fan base with them, I do believe Killzone didn't? Maybe I'm wrong on that, I'm not sure how much Killzone 1 sold.

Problem with this logic is

Same thing with Fallout, well established series, mulitple platforms = Great sales.

Why don't we wait until this month's sales

unrealistic expectations.

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]Judging a game's status only on its first 2 days of sales in one region is a faulty argument. Synthetic_NinJI

You mean GeoW2 and Halo 3 right? Lemme give you a hint as to why they cost less. Here we go: THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BUILD THEIR ENGINE FROM THE GROUND UP! I hope I didn't go too fast for you. :wink:

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]I understand the situation well, it just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point in calling it a sales flop at all until its all said and done? I'm not saying its a success or not. I'm saying we can't call it anything until really...The game stops selling. So his argument is basically saying KZ2 is a "temporary flop" lol.Stevo_the_gamer

The point of the matter is that in it's opening days of retail, it didn't live up to the expectations in regards to units sold. I very well seeing it selling good in March as well, but it didn't sell "spectacular" like other games who received similar marketing and hype. Granted the problem with comparing those said titles is that those games had a very well established fan base with them, I do believe Killzone didn't? Maybe I'm wrong on that, I'm not sure how much Killzone 1 sold.

At the end of the day, it's a generic shooter and will be forgotten in 10 years or less.

You mean GeoW2 and Halo 3 right? Lemme give you a hint as to why they cost less. Here we go: THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BUILD THEIR ENGINE FROM THE GROUND UP! I hope I didn't go too fast for you. :wink:

dragonpuppy

So to you, KZ2 is a *temporary flop*.

LMAO have it your way.

There's no point in debating with you any farther

[QUOTE="dragonpuppy"]You mean GeoW2 and Halo 3 right? Lemme give you a hint as to why they cost less. Here we go: THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BUILD THEIR ENGINE FROM THE GROUND UP! I hope I didn't go too fast for you. :wink:

Stevo_the_gamer

They still didn't spend money to build one up right? Please don't tell me you believe that upgrading an engine actually would cost as much as making one from scrap. :|

THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BUILD THEIR ENGINE FROM THE GROUND UP

I don't think it makes sense to call it *anything* until its all said and done. Look at CoD4 on PS3. Its over 5 million units, but the initial rate wasn't very high. And not near the 360's SKU launch sales.TREAL_Since

I'll make a different comparison. Transformers was arguably the best movie of 2007 with a substantial userbase attending; Transformers 2 should be huge when it releases, but let's say when it does release, after the huge budget, massive marketing; the movie itelf just sales... "good" with an opening release of 25 or so milion on its opening weekend. So, it flopped that opening weekend, still was an amazing movie... just didn't live up to the expectations in regards to sales.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BUILD THEIR ENGINE FROM THE GROUND UPSynthetic_NinJI

Actually Halo 3 did. So much fail in that post.

So to you, KZ2 is a *temporary flop*.Synthetic_NinJI

There is no temporary flop What is happening here is that you can't come up with a clear and concise argument. I'll take that as submission. There is no disagreeing that this game didn't reach standards as other games with smaller or similar budget. That is fact and again, it is mathematics.

LMAO have it your way.

LMAO indeed.

There's no point in debating with you any farther

You haven't even made an opposing argument other than quoting to the statement I made. I'll take this as your submission, good day sir.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BUILD THEIR ENGINE FROM THE GROUND UPSynthetic_NinJI

Actually Halo 3 did. So much fail in that post.

They used some of the previous engine in Halo 3's engine. KZ2's engine, however, was designed completely from the ground up. They started from scratch, whereas Bungie had a good engine they could incorporate.

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"] I don't think it makes sense to call it *anything* until its all said and done. Look at CoD4 on PS3. Its over 5 million units, but the initial rate wasn't very high. And not near the 360's SKU launch sales.Stevo_the_gamer

I'll make a different comparison. Transformers was arguably the best movie of 2007 with a substantial userbase attending; Transformers 2 should be huge when it releases, but let's say when it does release, after the huge budget, massive marketing; the movie itelf just sales... "good" with an opening release of 25 or so milion on its opening weekend. So, it flopped that opening weekend, still was an amazing movie... just didn't live up to the expectations in regards to sales.

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"] I don't think it makes sense to call it *anything* until its all said and done. Look at CoD4 on PS3. Its over 5 million units, but the initial rate wasn't very high. And not near the 360's SKU launch sales.Stevo_the_gamer

I'll make a different comparison. Transformers was arguably the best movie of 2007 with a substantial userbase attending; Transformers 2 should be huge when it releases, but let's say when it does release, after the huge budget, massive marketing; the movie itelf just sales... "good" with an opening release of 25 or so milion on its opening weekend. So, it flopped that opening weekend, still was an amazing movie... just didn't live up to the expectations in regards to sales.

Since when have "opening releases" determined if a game is a flop or not? Also, the Transformers comparison doesn' relate to KZ2, nice though.

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"] I don't think it makes sense to call it *anything* until its all said and done. Look at CoD4 on PS3. Its over 5 million units, but the initial rate wasn't very high. And not near the 360's SKU launch sales.TREAL_Since

I'll make a different comparison. Transformers was arguably the best movie of 2007 with a substantial userbase attending; Transformers 2 should be huge when it releases, but let's say when it does release, after the huge budget, massive marketing; the movie itelf just sales... "good" with an opening release of 25 or so milion on its opening weekend. So, it flopped that opening weekend, still was an amazing movie... just didn't live up to the expectations in regards to sales.

[QUOTE="thetruespin"]

Look, it's really quite simple:

Killzone 2 is a really good game, up there with the Halos and Gears of WarsKillzone 2 scored a 9 on gamespot and similarly high scores elsewhere. Killzone 2 is the best looking console game at the moment. No, it does not look better than CrysisKillzone 2 does not do a lot new, but it perfects a lot of tried and tested gameplay elements, creating something unique in the processWhether Killzone 2 is better than Halo 3 is simply a matter of opinionKillzone 2 is great fun and, if the huge amount of posts are anything to go by, will be talked about for many months if not years to come.

And that really is all there is to it.

-M117-

300k was only in the US. 1.1 million pre-orders in europe dude...

Alright. So temporary sales flop it is apparently. I'll let you guys feel that way. I'm done here. When actual numbers come in we'll see if its a "sales flop" or not. All I'm saying is we have to wait to see. This argument is premature and irrelevant to what gamers should be concerned about...

Since when have "opening releases" determined if a game is a flop or not? Also, the Transformers comparison doesn' relate to KZ2, nice though.

TREAL_Since

The point of the matter is simple, really, truly, easy to grasp frickin' simple. Killzone 2 was hyped a ton, massive marketing coincided with the game, and it just didn't sell spectacular r superbly like other titles which received similar expectations. It sold good, and that's great! It just didn't live up to the expectations, hence the usage "flop". Flop does not equal bad. Stop referring it as such, mate.

Transformers comparison doesn't relate? Huh? What... because it's "teh movieo" and not a game? Come on. :roll: Look at the what the point was conveying. Christ.

Look at the what the point was conveying. Christ.

Is this really what System Wars has come to? Squabbling over sales figures, and ignoring the actual game? By all accounts, Killzone 2 is a great game that easily met expectations in terms of quality (I haven't played it myself, so I can't testify personally). As for the "flopping", there was no such thing. The game was hyped AAA for years, and surprisingly, it received AAA.

Now I know you're thinking, "but Agentfred, aren't you ignoring how poorly it sold in a short time interval, in a fraction of its market?". Yes, yes I am. Now don't get me wrong, my complaint with that isn't even concerning the invalidity of such a narrow sampling, but rather, with the mere fact that we're arguing about sales to begin with. I'm pretty confident that KZ2 will sell several million copies in its lifetime, and easily validate its production, and most likely, even the production of numerous sequels. After this, my interest in sales figures drops off sharply. Anyway, the comparison between KZ2 and Halo 3 sales keeps coming up, and I'm forced to ask, why? Whether or not KZ2 ever sells as much as Halo 3 (it won't, and anyone could have told you that months ago), it really doesn't affect the game, or the gamer.

Why on earth are you all discussing such a trivial matter? Shouldn't we get back to talking about the game itself?

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"] Alright. So temporary sales flop it is apparently. I'll let you guys feel that way. I'm done here. When actual numbers come in we'll see if its a "sales flop" or not. All I'm saying is we have to wait to see. This argument is premature and irrelevant to what gamers should be concerned about...

Since when have "opening releases" determined if a game is a flop or not? Also, the Transformers comparison doesn' relate to KZ2, nice though.

Stevo_the_gamer

The point of the matter is simple, really, truly, easy to grasp frickin' simple. Killzone 2 was hyped a ton, massive marketing coincided with the game, and it just didn't sell spectacular r superbly like other titles which received similar expectations. It sold good, and that's great! It just didn't live up to the expectations, hence the usage "flop". Flop does not equal bad. Stop referring it as such, mate.

Transformers comparison doesn't relate? Huh? What... because it's "teh movieo" and not a game? Come on. :roll: Look at the what the point was conveying. Christ.

hahah... some hardened lems still try and claim Killzone 2 sucks.. now using some mad logic that it "cost too much to develop"... lolthetruespin

Is this really what System Wars has come to? Squabbling over sales figures, and ignoring the actual game? By all accounts, Killzone 2 is a great game that easily met expectations in terms of quality (I haven't played it myself, so I can't testify personally). As for the "flopping", there was no such thing. The game was hyped AAA for years, and surprisingly, it received AAA.

Now I know you're thinking, "but Agentfred, aren't you ignoring how poorly it sold in a short time interval, in a fraction of its market?". Yes, yes I am. Now don't get me wrong, my complaint with that isn't even concerning the invalidity of such a narrow sampling, but rather, with the mere fact that we're arguing about sales to begin with. I'm pretty confident that KZ2 will sell several million copies in its lifetime, and easily validate its production, and most likely, even the production of numerous sequels. After this, my interest in sales figures drops off sharply. Anyway, the comparison between KZ2 and Halo 3 sales keeps coming up, and I'm forced to ask, why? Whether or not KZ2 ever sells as much as Halo 3 (it won't, and anyone could have told you that months ago), it really doesn't affect the game, or the gamer.

Why on earth are you all discussing such a trivial matter? Shouldn't we get back to talking about the game itself?

agentfred

[QUOTE="agentfred"]

Is this really what System Wars has come to? Squabbling over sales figures, and ignoring the actual game? By all accounts, Killzone 2 is a great game that easily met expectations in terms of quality (I haven't played it myself, so I can't testify personally). As for the "flopping", there was no such thing. The game was hyped AAA for years, and surprisingly, it received AAA.

Now I know you're thinking, "but Agentfred, aren't you ignoring how poorly it sold in a short time interval, in a fraction of its market?". Yes, yes I am. Now don't get me wrong, my complaint with that isn't even concerning the invalidity of such a narrow sampling, but rather, with the mere fact that we're arguing about sales to begin with. I'm pretty confident that KZ2 will sell several million copies in its lifetime, and easily validate its production, and most likely, even the production of numerous sequels. After this, my interest in sales figures drops off sharply. Anyway, the comparison between KZ2 and Halo 3 sales keeps coming up, and I'm forced to ask, why? Whether or not KZ2 ever sells as much as Halo 3 (it won't, and anyone could have told you that months ago), it really doesn't affect the game, or the gamer.

Why on earth are you all discussing such a trivial matter? Shouldn't we get back to talking about the game itself?

TREAL_Since

I understand the points.

It didn't sell like most on the internet expected in the first 2 days in America

Beyond that, what's the point?

KZ2 isn't a hugely known entity (besides on the internet) and didn't have a massive marketing campaign, which is Sony's fault.

hahah... some hardened lems still try and claim Killzone 2 sucks.. now using some mad logic that it "cost too much to develop"... lolthetruespin

Look at my signature. Do you see killzone 2? Good, now when you reply to this post doing so with the usual "bu bu ur 360 fanboy u not play it" garbage it wont wash.

The only people making these threads is sony fanboys. And everytime they do so, rightfully so people come in here and bash it. Mostly because it's tiring to hear. And in every single topic you can gaurentee Halo is brought up. For whatever reason Sony fanboys are determind for it to be recognized as equal if not better than Halo.

Look at this topic "up there withh gears and halo" :lol: Give bungie 60 million, 4-5 years dev time and see what they accomplish. Do the same with Epic. It doesn't touch Halo and what Halo is, i can say that now. It rivals gears of war, barly. But it's more in CODs ball park than those two.

So i wouldn't come along blaiming people for replying, PS3 owners just need to accept it's not "all that" and move on, it's a good game enjoy it over posting endless threads trying to make out it's jesus.

I understand the points.Synthetic_NinJI

They are not points. They are facts put there with references and evidence from other material. A 5th grader can comprehend such things :|

It didn't sell like most on the internet expected in the first 2 days in America

Everybody expected to sell more. Sony and otherwise.

Beyond that, what's the point?

Exactly. Why are you still posting and quoting? You are not necessary anymore.

KZ2 isn't a hugely known entity (besides on the internet) and didn't have a massive marketing campaign, which is Sony's fault.

Thank you. That's more ammunition.

I understand the points. To even mention the first 2 days is moot because it won't stay that way (at least I see it as such). It didn't sell like most on the internet expected in the first 2 days in America. Beyond that, what's the point? KZ2 isn't a hugely known entity (besides on the internet) and didn't have a massive marketing campaign, which is Sony's fault. Your Transformer comparison would been better if the two movies correlated with KZ1 and KZ2. It's closer to Halo really in the sense of the original being a commercial success. I'm not discounting it because its a different form on entertainment though. And beyond that, its hypothetical considering Transformers 2 isn't out yet.TREAL_Since

Ah, I do know it's quite the -- like Fred mentioned -- trivial matter... I'm not even sure why I'm discussing on this subject because frankly, I have always despised the sales argument. Sheep know me best for debunking their sales non-sense. But I do stand by the common-sense argument. And I'm afraid no matter how little this may be, he is in fact correct and allowed to say it's a sales flop as of current status. Does it sound a little... dumb? I guess one could argue that, but hey, the man is allowed to have his opinion, and I do stand by his accusation. I firmly believed it was going to easily sell a million to 750K on it's openin release... I'm not sure what other expectations were, but I was a little ... "shocked" to see how "meh" it had sold. I eman, it's a frickin' shooter... in America? It should sells millions, amirite? :P

Meh, I'd say Sony did a great job on the marketing... perhaps I overstated the "massive" part because that can ONLY refer to Halo 3's marketing which can only be deccribed as this ":o". Regardless, I saw too many commercials regarding it for my liking, too many magazine articles/advertisements, PR crap, plenty of posters, billboards to go around, and I'm sure there was more as well. I'd say they did a fine job in getting PS3 owners "aware" of the coming title. Transformers... was a commercial success though, granted it had a huge following because of the cartoons.. I think? But the point is what matters most.

[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]I understand the points. To even mention the first 2 days is moot because it won't stay that way (at least I see it as such). It didn't sell like most on the internet expected in the first 2 days in America. Beyond that, what's the point? KZ2 isn't a hugely known entity (besides on the internet) and didn't have a massive marketing campaign, which is Sony's fault. Your Transformer comparison would been better if the two movies correlated with KZ1 and KZ2. It's closer to Halo really in the sense of the original being a commercial success. I'm not discounting it because its a different form on entertainment though. And beyond that, its hypothetical considering Transformers 2 isn't out yet.Stevo_the_gamer

Ah, I do know it's quite the -- like Fred mentioned -- trivial matter... I'm not even sure why I'm discussing on this subject because frankly, I have always despised the sales argument. Sheep know me best for debunking their sales non-sense. But I do stand by the common-sense argument. And I'm afraid no matter how little this may be, he is in fact correct and allowed to say it's a sales flop as of current status. Does it sound a little... dumb? I guess one could argue that, but hey, the man is allowed to have his opinion, and I do stand by his accusation. I firmly believed it was going to easily sell a million to 750K on it's openin release... I'm not sure what other expectations were, but I was a little ... "shocked" to see how "meh" it had sold. I eman, it's a frickin' shooter... in America? It should sells millions, amirite? :P

Meh, I'd say Sony did a great job on the marketing... perhaps I overstated the "massive" part because that can ONLY refer to Halo 3's marketing which can only be deccribed as this ":o". Regardless, I saw too many commercials regarding it for my liking, too many magazine articles/advertisements, PR crap, plenty of posters, billboards to go around, and I'm sure there was more as well. I'd say they did a fine job in getting PS3 owners "aware" of the coming title. Transformers... was a commercial success though, granted it had a huge following because of the cartoons.. I think? But the point is what matters most.

Good ol' system wars, the only place where a 6.5 is the best game of the year, a 9.0 is a flop and everyone can play sales!

a 9.0 is a flopAbicus7

[QUOTE="Abicus7"] a 9.0 is a flopStevo_the_gamer

whos saying more sales = better game.. oh wait.

Yeah, this is trivial to begin with

So it's settled: KZ2 is a *temporary flop*.

"Gears of War" or "Halo 3" *initially*.

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"][QUOTE="Abicus7"] a 9.0 is a flopAbicus7

whos saying more sales = better game.. oh wait.

And why are you posting your portable ID every time you post?

[QUOTE="Abicus7"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]Who's calling Killzone's score a flop? :?Stevo_the_gamer

whos saying more sales = better game.. oh wait.

And why are you posting your portable ID every time you post?

Many people are calling this game a flop, just look at all the threads. And what is it based on.. the fact that it didnt sell as well as Halo or gears.. by that logic 99% of ALL games are flops. SW cracks me up sometimes.

why not post it?

Yeah, this is trivial to begin with

So it's settled: KZ2 is a *temporary flop*.

"Gears of War" or "Halo 3" *initially*.

Many people are calling this game a flop, just look at all the threads. And what is it based on.. the fact that it didnt sell as well as Halo or gears.. by that logic 99% of ALL games are flops. SW cracks me up sometimes.Abicus7