[QUOTE="sts106mat"] in the UK we have to pay for a TV licence (it pays for the BBC basically) BBC has no "commercial ads" but it still advertises its own programs. MS showing you ads for games and stuff isn't a problem, particularly since the xbox has so much stuff on it its impossible to keep up with everything. if they start advertising insurance or pizza, i might start questioning it. See because that is the model.. You pay you get no ads... The own network programs are fine,since those tell you when event movies or series take place. In other words MS promoting its own stuff on xbox live is OK,MS advertising pizza is a joke that ad is already paying for xbox live..
Putting 8 gigs of RAM in PS4 instead of 4 was something they did at the last minute. It was so late in the game that it surprised developers. If Sony could make a late change like that than MS should be able to boost the power of their GPU as well if the will is there to do so.Wickerman777
No adding more ram is not the same and changing GPU.. On PS4 they just use higher density chips,on 720 that would mean a whole new board,a whole new test cycle,better cooling tech and even an exterior redesign,not to mention that putting a 7870 with DDR3 and ESRAM will create a bottleneck those GPU work on 156GB/s bandwidth something the 720 doesn't have..
[QUOTE="Wickerman777"]Putting 8 gigs of RAM in PS4 instead of 4 was something they did at the last minute. It was so late in the game that it surprised developers. If Sony could make a late change like that than MS should be able to boost the power of their GPU as well if the will is there to do so.tormentos
No adding more ram is not the same and changing GPU.. On PS4 they just use higher density chips,on 720 that would mean a whole new board,a whole new test cycle,better cooling tech and even an exterior redesign,not to mention that putting a 7870 with DDR3 and ESRAM will create a bottleneck those GPU work on 156GB/s bandwidth something the 720 doesn't have.. So what could they do to beef it up without creating a whole new design?
[QUOTE="MBirdy88"] I don't see why they owe you free online just because ads are involved, immature naive wishful thinking at its finest, the 2 things are not even remotely connected, just because there are services out there that pay to remove ads, there are pleanty that dont. Just because you like to be scam doesn't mean the rest of the world like it.. Selfish naive arrogant thinking at its finest,every one get free online play..
[QUOTE="Wickerman777"]Putting 8 gigs of RAM in PS4 instead of 4 was something they did at the last minute. It was so late in the game that it surprised developers. If Sony could make a late change like that than MS should be able to boost the power of their GPU as well if the will is there to do so.tormentos
No adding more ram is not the same and changing GPU.. On PS4 they just use higher density chips,on 720 that would mean a whole new board,a whole new test cycle,better cooling tech and even an exterior redesign,not to mention that putting a 7870 with DDR3 and ESRAM will create a bottleneck those GPU work on 156GB/s bandwidth something the 720 doesn't have..
Lol, you don't know what you're talking about. You make it sound like you've got a bug chip in MS's conference room. You don't know what they're going to do anymore than I do. For all you know they might have developed 2-3 different APUs in parallel and have been bugtesting all of them and can decide to go to market with any one of them whenever they choose. Not saying they did/are but the fact is nobody knows for sure what they're doing.
[QUOTE="Shielder7"] So what could they do to beef it up without creating a whole new design? Raise clock speed at the most.. And not much if they don't want to end spending more on a better cooling solution.
Ironically the only thing that can possibly change this late in the development cycle without incuring a huge loss is the RAM which Sony fan boys are going crazy over. But the reality is we don't know much about it beside rumors which have all come to a screeching hault.
Lol, you don't know what you're talking about. You make it sound like you've got a bug chip in MS's conference room. You don't know what they're going to do anymore than I do. For all you know they might have developed 2-3 different APUs in parallel and have been bugtesting all of them and can decide to go to market with any one of them whenever they choose. Not saying they did/are but the fact is nobody knows for sure what they're doing.Wickerman777
No i don't know what their plan is. But i do know that there is a test time for consoles,it takes some 2 years to lock everything in,do poor testing to beat your opponent and you end with RROD. That is not how this work it has never ever work that way,in fact in the first xbox the GPU was down clock speed wise on the final retail unit,the xbox 360 just saw a 256MB increase in memory again higher density. Changing a GPU is not the same,that would require changing the complete board,better cooling,new memory since DDR3 with ESRAM will not cut it for something like the 7870 or bigger GPU,raising the console TDP. Hell let me tell you this let say MS change the GPU,the first thing they have to do is burn the mother board,because the 720 one as of now is build to use ESRAM and DDR3 with DME,those are to mitigate bandwidth problems,you may say no but get this fact. The purpose of ESRAM is to speed up the data to 102GB/s,if you will use GDDR5 which has 176GB/s you need to get reed of ESRAM because it will slow down your bandwidth because is 102GB/S the GDDR5 one is far faster. So the mother board,with the ram,ESRAM and DME have to go,in other words you have to do a complete new console just if you want to change the GPU.
[QUOTE="Kaszilla"]Am I the only one who remembers how the ps2 was a good bit weaker than the Xbox/GC? Yall are actin like the 720 being slightly weaker than the PS4 will make it a failure.mariokart64fan
That's expected when one console comes out a year before another. But considering that these consoles are allegedly targeting the same launch window the difference in graphics processing shouldn't be as wide as it is rumored to be.
then why are people complaining about the wiiu graphics then ?
C'mon, you can't compare what Nintendo does with what MS and Sony does. We all know that when it comes to Nintendo the hardware is always going to be junk no matter when it launches.
Nope I think it will less powerful than PS4 and they will focus on more casual so power won't be that important to them.
mariokart64fan
lol so you mean there will one console that is very powerful and two that are just powerful enough ,, i got ya , and we all know what happened last time this happen was gc xbox ps2 dc gen
---the xboxs power was never used fully , lol ps4 just another wasted oppertunity if 720 is slightly more powerful then wii u
MS already released a console that rivals the WiiU in power.
And EA already said a couple of weeks ago that the next gen systems(not including the WiiU) will be 8-10x more powerful than the PS3/360.
[QUOTE="Wickerman777"]Lol, you don't know what you're talking about. You make it sound like you've got a bug chip in MS's conference room. You don't know what they're going to do anymore than I do. For all you know they might have developed 2-3 different APUs in parallel and have been bugtesting all of them and can decide to go to market with any one of them whenever they choose. Not saying they did/are but the fact is nobody knows for sure what they're doing.tormentos
No i don't know what their plan is. But i do know that there is a test time for consoles,it takes some 2 years to lock everything in,do poor testing to beat your opponent and you end with RROD. That is not how this work it has never ever work that way,in fact in the first xbox the GPU was down lock speed wise on the final retail unit,the xbox 360 just saw a 256MB increase in memory again higher density. Changing a GPU is not the same,that would require changing the complete board,better cooling,new memory since DDR3 with ESRAM will not cut it for something like the 7870 or bigger GPU,raising the console TDP. Hell let me tell you this let say MS change the GPU,the first thing they have to do is burn the mother board,because the 720 one as of now is build to use ESRAM and DDR3 with DME,those are to mitigate bandwidth problems,you may say no but get this fact. The purpose of ESRAM is take speed up the data to 102GB/s,if you will use GDDR5 which has 176GB/s you need to get reed of ESRAM because it will slow down your bandwidth because is 102GB/S the GDDR5 one is far faster. So the mother board,with the ram,ESRAM and DME have to go,in other words you have to do a complete new console just if you want to change the GPU.
Lol, OK. Sorry, but I'll wait for official announcements before I accept that everything there is to know is already known. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.
That's expected when one console comes out a year before another. But considering that these consoles are allegedly targeting the same launch window the difference in graphics processing shouldn't be as wide as it is rumored to be.
Wickerman777
then why are people complaining about the wiiu graphics then ?
C'mon, you can't compare what Nintendo does with what MS and Sony does. We all know that when it comes to Nintendo the hardware is always going to be junk no matter when it launches.
Assuming the difference will be wide... Dreamcast released in 1998, Ps2 is only slightly more powerful.
[QUOTE="mariokart64fan"]then why are people complaining about the wiiu graphics then ?
Kaszilla
C'mon, you can't compare what Nintendo does with what MS and Sony does. We all know that when it comes to Nintendo the hardware is always going to be junk no matter when it launches.
Assuming the difference will be wide... Dreamcast released in 1998, Ps2 is only slightly more powerful.
Hmm, I don't know the numbers but I'd estimate that PS2 was app. the same leap over DC as Xbox was over PS2. I had a DC and liked it at the time but the games lacked texture detail when compared to PS2. But once again we're talking about little companies (Sega, Nintendo) vs huge corporations like Sony and MS.
the memory isn't as bad as people want everyone to believe http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-memory-system-overview/ it reads at 170 GB/s (yes you can combine both Main memory and Esram ) and writes at 102 GB/s
they will prob match 8gb, but it won't be gddr5 to save money.
rumors were putting both 720 & ps4 at 4gb. i heard behind scenes, sony surprised devs and xbox.
I_can_haz
And if Sony can do that, MS can do that too. But really, lets not speculate until they announce it.MS can't change the type of RAM they use this late in the game. They can however increase the amount of RAM. When exactly were these specs leaked and how old were teh specs that leaked? Without knowing that info, you can't tell when they could ahve started changing hardware IF thats what they intended to do. It's not liek they woke up this morning and said "damn, we should changed it to this"...
[QUOTE="I_can_haz"][QUOTE="Phazevariance"] And if Sony can do that, MS can do that too. But really, lets not speculate until they announce it.Phazevariance
MS can't change the type of RAM they use this late in the game. They can however increase the amount of RAM. When exactly were these specs leaked and how old were teh specs that leaked? Without knowing that info, you can't tell when they could ahve started changing hardware IF thats what they intended to do. It's not liek they woke up this morning and said "damn, we should changed it to this"...
They're from early last year which is quite a long damned time ago.
When exactly were these specs leaked and how old were teh specs that leaked? Without knowing that info, you can't tell when they could ahve started changing hardware IF thats what they intended to do. It's not liek they woke up this morning and said "damn, we should changed it to this"...Phazevariance
[QUOTE="Phazevariance"]When exactly were these specs leaked and how old were teh specs that leaked? Without knowing that info, you can't tell when they could ahve started changing hardware IF thats what they intended to do. It's not liek they woke up this morning and said "damn, we should changed it to this"...lunatic0495
How dare you use logic and common sense!
I know, i know... i'm breaking the code of system wars. ;)
the memory isn't as bad as people want everyone to believe http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-memory-system-overview/ it reads at 170 GB/s (yes you can combine both Main memory and Esram ) and writes at 102 GB/s
Tessellation
Reading from both sides it reads at 170GB/s but what good is does when you can only write at 102GB/s,is not that bad but is not as good as the PS4.
the memory isn't as bad as people want everyone to believe http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-memory-system-overview/ it reads at 170 GB/s (yes you can combine both Main memory and Esram ) and writes at 102 GB/s
tormentos
Reading from both sides it reads at 170GB/s but what good is does when you can only write at 102GB/s,is not that bad but is not as good as the PS4.
Lol, here we go again. Nobody said it was as fast as PS4's memory. But it is delivering close enough to the same results at a much lower cost (IE: bang for buck) which thereby could mean that Sony is overpaying for something that isn't going to make much of a difference anyway.
the memory isn't as bad as people want everyone to believe http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-memory-system-overview/ it reads at 170 GB/s (yes you can combine both Main memory and Esram ) and writes at 102 GB/s
Tessellation
You can but you can't. This assumes the Esram and main ram never need to be hit for the same piece of memory. However, that isn't the case. The Esram is essentially a large cache in function, and that means it will need to hit the main memory bandwidth, and it's own, to feed itself now and then. Plus there is also the issue of waste time. We don't deliver all this data at the end of the second, you are delivering it continuously. If your processor has to sit around longer waiting, that extra processing time has been lost.
With don mattrick around xbox720 feels like it's gonna be another wii.
nextgenjoke
Wouldn't go that far, certainly going to be more expensive which maybe the deciding factor this gen. If the 720 is a bit weaker but a 100$ cheaper it could easily pull out a win regardless of the faster RAM. Although the 720 comes with a built in kinect which could drive up prices, I personally don't care about kinect so would pick the more powerful machine if they're the same price.
With don mattrick around xbox720 feels like it's gonna be another wii.
Shielder7
Wouldn't go that far, certainly going to be more expensive which maybe the deciding factor this gen. If the 720 is a bit weaker but a 100$ cheaper it could easily pull out a win regardless of the faster RAM. Although the 720 comes with a built in kinect which could drive up prices, I personally don't care about kinect so would pick the more powerful machine if they're the same price. Except that MS also has a massive cash backing and might just sell it at a loss to get the user base numbers up, which means that it could be cheaper in the end with all the added bells and whistles.
Do you think MS (assuming the rumors were true like the PS 4) could change their Architecture to beef up their system to match or far pass the PS 4? It's no secreat that MS has a bigger bank roll than Sony and Nintendo and could beat them in pricing, but the utter silence from MS after the PS 4 revile makes me wonder if they're tweaking the Next Box a bit or do you think it would be too late?
And before anyone says anything I'm no Lem, I'm probably going PS 4 unless Sony does something really stupid like charge for online.
Shielder7
Do you even know what architecture means in the CS/ECE world?
the memory isn't as bad as people want everyone to believe http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-memory-system-overview/ it reads at 170 GB/s (yes you can combine both Main memory and Esram ) and writes at 102 GB/s
Wickerman777
Reading from both sides it reads at 170GB/s but what good is does when you can only write at 102GB/s,is not that bad but is not as good as the PS4.
Lol, here we go again. Nobody said it was as fast as PS4's memory. But it is delivering close enough to the same results at a much lower cost (IE: bang for buck) which thereby could mean that Sony is overpaying for something that isn't going to make much of a difference anyway.
Close enough.? To what maximize the 720GPU.? Because the PS4 has 176GB/s that is 74GB/s more is no just a few GB/s data that is a big number.. How the hell can you deliver the same result over a bandwidth starved system that has a weaker GPU.? http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/549?vs=536 This ^^ on PC are the equivalents and is not a small gap by any means,sure the 720 will be more efficient but so will be the PS4.
[QUOTE="tormentos"] Reading from both sides it reads at 170GB/s but what good is does when you can only write at 102GB/s,is not that bad but is not as good as the PS4.tormentos
Lol, here we go again. Nobody said it was as fast as PS4's memory. But it is delivering close enough to the same results at a much lower cost (IE: bang for buck) which thereby could mean that Sony is overpaying for something that isn't going to make much of a difference anyway.
Close enough.? To what maximize the 720GPU.? Because the PS4 has 176GB/s that is 74GB/s more is no just a few GB/s data that is a big number.. How the hell can you deliver the same result over a bandwidth starved system that has a weaker GPU.? http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/549?vs=536 This ^^ on PC are the equivalents and is not a small gap by any means,sure the 720 will be more efficient but so will be the PS4.
What are you talking about? The read speed is 176 gb/s vs 170 gb/s. Durango reads the SDRAM and DDR3 in parallel, the numbers are added together to make 170 gb/s.
Would be funny if Microsoft went 16GB GDDR5 last minute.
It's obviously not going to happen though.
nextgenjoke
If they can get 16gb of gddr3 for cheap they would own ps4 if about equal gpu too.
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
Would be funny if Microsoft went 16GB GDDR5 last minute.
It's obviously not going to happen though.
Wickerman777
If they can get 16gb of gddr3 for cheap they would own ps4 if about equal gpu too.
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
Not if they built exclusives which they should be doing.
Would be funny if Microsoft went 16GB GDDR5 last minute.
It's obviously not going to happen though.
Wickerman777
If they can get 16gb of gddr3 for cheap they would own ps4 if about equal gpu too.
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
ya you cant just throw ram at something and expect to it multiply its gaming abilities The gpu's in both consoles are not fast enough to utilize more then 4gb of texture data to any degree where it would help. its the same principle of seeing a 4gb 7850 vs a 2gb 7850 at 1080 = no difference in performance.
[QUOTE="nextgenjoke"] If they can get 16gb of gddr3 for cheap they would own ps4 if about equal gpu too.nextgenjoke
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
Not if they built exclusives which they should be doing. you cant just throw ram at something and expect to it multiply its gaming abilities.
[QUOTE="nextgenjoke"] If they can get 16gb of gddr3 for cheap they would own ps4 if about equal gpu too.nextgenjoke
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
Not if they built exclusives which they should be doing.
C'mon man, there are PC GPUs out there right now that are 2-3 times as powerful as the GPU that will be in PS4 and playing on those doesn't even necessitate 8 gigs of dedicated RAM let alone 16.
I guess people werent around or didnt learn from the xbox and gamecube era lol people would say gamecube is better because it has faster ram and id be like nah dude having more ram and it being unified is better.
8gb of memory is still 8gb of memory GDDR3 vs GDDR5, the memory bandwidth will only affect performance when using 1080 and AA or using 3D stereo. The xbox has to buffer its video memory with the ESRAM (102 GB/s) since the 8gb GDDR3 looks like it will only move 68 GB/s.
What are you talking about? The read speed is 176 gb/s vs 170 gb/s. Durango reads the SDRAM and DDR3 in parallel, the numbers are added together to make 170 gb/s.Wickerman777
That is because the 720 can read from both side,so is 68+102 but is not 170GB's from 1 side,but when the topic is writing the number drops hugely to 102GB/s. Remember the 170 number is combining the 68 you are reading from DDR3 and the 102GB/s you are from the ESRAM,but you are not reading the same information in both places,and when writing everything falls.
[QUOTE="nextgenjoke"] If they can get 16gb of gddr3 for cheap they would own ps4 if about equal gpu too.04dcarraher
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
ya you cant just throw ram at something and expect to it multiply its gaming abilities The gpu's in both consoles are not fast enough to utilize more then 4gb of texture data to any degree where it would help. its the same principle of seeing a 4gb 7850 vs a 2gb 7850 at 1080 = no difference in performance. Link..
I guess people werent around or didnt learn from the xbox and gamecube era lol people would say gamecube is better because it has faster ram and id be like nah dude having more ram and it being unified is better.
Well turned out xbox handed gamepube it's ass.
nextgenjoke
Of course more RAM is better but there comes a point where the amount of memory you have far outstrips what your GPU is capable of making effective use of. Both the PS4 and Durango are loaded with RAM already at 8 gigs. That's plenty. It's a jump of 16X over the previous consoles. However, the GPU leap in PS4 is only 7X that of last-gen, half as much a leap as the RAM. And Durango, as currently rumored, is only a 5X jump over last-gen when it comes to the GPU. So again, the jump in memory is going to be way larger than the jump in graphics processing. Neither of these consoles will be powerful enough to make practical use of 16 gigs of RAM and even 8 gigs is a stretch.
[QUOTE="Wickerman777"]What are you talking about? The read speed is 176 gb/s vs 170 gb/s. Durango reads the SDRAM and DDR3 in parallel, the numbers are added together to make 170 gb/s.tormentos
That is because the 720 can read from both side,so is 68+102 but is not 170GB's from 1 side,but when the topic is writing the number drops hugely to 102GB/s. Remember the 170 number is combining the 68 you are reading from DDR3 and the 102GB/s you are from the ESRAM,but you are not reading the same information in both places,and when writing everything falls.
Dude, you're just talking gibberish now. I don't think even you know what you mean. The fact remains that the read speed will be 170 gb/s and that's damned close to the read speed of PS4's memory. As far as the write speed goes I'm not sure how significant that even is (And I don't believe you know either) as none of the articles I've read have even been talking about that. Furthermore, the data move engines in Durango have yet to be adequately explained by anyone and who knows exactly what difference those are going to make.
Give me a break. It's gonna take some creative thinking from devs to even find a way to use 8 gigs of RAM. 16 gigs would be utterly unnecassary. The majority of it would just sit around unused.
tormentos
ya you cant just throw ram at something and expect to it multiply its gaming abilities The gpu's in both consoles are not fast enough to utilize more then 4gb of texture data to any degree where it would help. its the same principle of seeing a 4gb 7850 vs a 2gb 7850 at 1080 = no difference in performance. Link.. your the missing link you got it.
I guess people werent around or didnt learn from the xbox and gamecube era lol people would say gamecube is better because it has faster ram and id be like nah dude having more ram and it being unified is better.
Well turned out xbox handed gamepube it's ass.
Wickerman777
Of course more RAM is better but there comes a point where the amount of memory you have far outstrips what your GPU is capable of making effective use of. Both the PS4 and Durango are loaded with RAM already at 8 gigs. That's plenty. It's a jump of 16X over the previous consoles. However, the GPU leap in PS4 is only 7X that of last-gen, half as much a leap as the RAM. And Durango, as currently rumored, is only a 5X jump over last-gen when it comes to the GPU. So again, the jump in memory is going to be way larger than the jump in graphics processing. Neither of these consoles will be powerful enough to make practical use of 16 gigs of RAM and even 8 gigs is a stretch.
[QUOTE="04dcarraher"] your the missing link you got it. It will be so epic when Sony announce the reserve ram for OS,there would be so much damage control.. The PS4 can use 6GB for Vram without any problems go to Beyond3D ask..
[QUOTE="04dcarraher"] your the missing link you got it. tormentos
It will be so epic when Sony announce the reserve ram for OS,there would be so much damage control.. The PS4 can use 6GB for Vram without any problems go to Beyond3D ask.. too much wishful thinking... you will see MP games with large player counts using more then 2gb of game cache let alone open world games, and you love to ignore streaming and video recording memory usage.
[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="04dcarraher"] your the missing link you got it. It will be so epic when Sony announce the reserve ram for OS,there would be so much damage control.. The PS4 can use 6GB for Vram without any problems go to Beyond3D ask.. hmm link to it? because they haven't say that as far as i know,and mostly the ones speculating that kind of things are are idiots that are already banned that don't know sh!t.
I guess people werent around or didnt learn from the xbox and gamecube era lol people would say gamecube is better because it has faster ram and id be like nah dude having more ram and it being unified is better.
Well turned out xbox handed gamepube it's ass.
tormentos
Of course more RAM is better but there comes a point where the amount of memory you have far outstrips what your GPU is capable of making effective use of. Both the PS4 and Durango are loaded with RAM already at 8 gigs. That's plenty. It's a jump of 16X over the previous consoles. However, the GPU leap in PS4 is only 7X that of last-gen, half as much a leap as the RAM. And Durango, as currently rumored, is only a 5X jump over last-gen when it comes to the GPU. So again, the jump in memory is going to be way larger than the jump in graphics processing. Neither of these consoles will be powerful enough to make practical use of 16 gigs of RAM and even 8 gigs is a stretch.
The PS4 GPU is say to be 8 to 10 times stronger.
I don't care what the idiots at EA say. I know how to do math on my own. I suppose if you want to factor in 16X as much RAM as the previous gen you could make an argument that overall the power increase is greater than 7X or 5X. But I'm just talking about graphics processing and last gen the consoles did roughly 250 gflops. 1.8 tflops divided by 250 gflops equals 7.2X the graphics processing performance for PS4 over last-gen. And 1.2 tflops divided by 250 gflops equals 4.8X the graphics rendering ability for Durango over last-gen.
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