PC has no AAAA Game in the History of Gaming

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Mark36111

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#301 Mark36111
Member since 2004 • 563 Posts

Read my posts before responding next time. The clause "if yo know how many units sold" is central in the argument which I am putting forth.

But you later go on the say: "units sold which means absolutely nothing," and "units sold means CRAP." You're contradicting yourself within the same post.

[I never said that marginal revenue is indicative of anything itself.

Yes you did: "Number of units sold is NOT a good indicator of profitability. It depends on something called marginal revenue."

I merely said that units sold is a poor indicator. If anything it is an indicator of absolutely nothing.

This is just wrong. If you know the number of units sold, you can say definitively what the total revenue is, since marginal revenue (i.e. price) is always known. You won't be able to calculate exact profits without cost figures, but you can take two games with similar pricing and similar development cycles and come to a credible estimate of which one was more profitable based on units sold.

The central thing you need to know is marginal cost v. marginal revenue.

No. You can have a positive marginal revenue to marginal cost ratio, yet still have low or negative profits. Conversely, you can a negative ratio and still have positive profits (though theoretically you'd stop producing once MR=MC). Agan, the bottom line is that you must know both total revenue and total cost to determine profitability.

I never disagreed with that assertion in the first place. Merely you placing more importance on TR - TC is a non-starter argument, because you can get the same equation knowing marginal revenue v. marginal cost X units sold; which is just another equation to get to profit. There are two equations here, both are correct;

P = Units sold(MR-MC)
P = TR - TC

P = Units Sold(MR-MC) is not a valid profit function. Stated differently, you're saying that P = (Q*MR) - (Q*MC), where Q = units sold. This is not the same thing as P = TR- TC. Q*MR = TR, but Q*MC =/= TC because MC is not constant across all units sold. TC = ATC * Q, where ATC is average total cost.

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ChubbyGuy40

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#302 ChubbyGuy40
Member since 2007 • 26442 Posts

July 27th, 'nuff said. I think thats the only game on PC that has an actual shot at getting a perfect rating this year.

Oh, and because PC games have higher standards.

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NerubianWeaver

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#303 NerubianWeaver
Member since 2010 • 2046 Posts

Pretty much what alot of other people said PC games have higher standards just like when a movie is reviewed it is almost unheard of to get an 8 or a 9. Now PC reviewers don't withhold high scores quite as much as top notch movie reviewers, but they still do more than console reviewers for the most part at least. And I know I'm about to get flamed for saying so, but I think great Wii games tend to get higher scores than great PS3 or Xbox 360 games, simply because they are a bit rarer.

TacticalDesire
So a certain product must be popular just to score higher :|
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Scoob64

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#304 Scoob64
Member since 2008 • 2635 Posts

I just noticed that. Not only this Gen but all the whole time. I wonder why?

NerubianWeaver

alright- to solve this "AAAAE issue" I'm starting my own website right now and the following PC games get a perfect 10...

WarCraft II

The SIMS

StarCraft

StarCraft: Brood War

Roller Coaster Tycoon

problem solved.

seriously- wtf- it is incredible to see how much faith some of yall put in review scores... theres several AAAAE games that imo totally stink... and some that barely score a 7.0 that i love... review scores aren't that big a deal to me.

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kdawg88

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#305 kdawg88
Member since 2009 • 2923 Posts

[QUOTE="NerubianWeaver"]

I just noticed that. Not only this Gen but all the whole time. I wonder why?

Scoob64

alright- to solve this "AAAAE issue" I'm starting my own website right now and the following PC games get a perfect 10...

WarCraft II

The SIMS

StarCraft

StarCraft: Brood War

problem solved.

seriously- wtf- it is incredibly to see how much faith some of yall put in review scores... theres several AAAAE games that imo totally stink... and some that barely score a 7.0 that i love... review scores aren't that big a deal to me.

Yes we can see that you like StarCraft.
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Scoob64

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#306 Scoob64
Member since 2008 • 2635 Posts

[QUOTE="Scoob64"]

[QUOTE="NerubianWeaver"]

I just noticed that. Not only this Gen but all the whole time. I wonder why?

kdawg88

alright- to solve this "AAAAE issue" I'm starting my own website right now and the following PC games get a perfect 10...

WarCraft II

The SIMS

StarCraft

StarCraft: Brood War

problem solved.

seriously- wtf- it is incredibly to see how much faith some of yall put in review scores... theres several AAAAE games that imo totally stink... and some that barely score a 7.0 that i love... review scores aren't that big a deal to me.

Yes we can see that you like StarCraft.

hehe- let it be known i suppose

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HuusAsking

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#307 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="Eggimannd"]

[QUOTE="ThatGuyFromB4"]

This whole "PC gamers have higher standards" thing doesn't seem a bit pompous and pretentious to anyone else?

NerubianWeaver

It's actually PC GAMES have higher standards. Not gamers (Well I guess that could actually also be true). That a game like Deus Ex could get scored an 82 while it is by far superior to 99% of console AAA games is testament to this.

Could you give me proof that PC Games have higher standards. Any source or did that phrase came from a game reviewer?

Look no further than Elder Scrolls 4. Before the scoring system rewrite. GameSpot would put a "Best" tag on the version of a multiplat game they felt presented it best. The 360 version scored the highest: 9.6. The PS3 version got 9.5. The PC version only got a 9.3...but it was the one that got the "Best" tag.
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HuusAsking

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#308 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="kdawg88"] In other words, they're not likely to make a profit.Vandalvideo
This is a myth that needs to be destroyed. I swear, System Wars has a horrible grasp of economics. Number of units sold is NOT a good indicator of profitability. It depends on something called marginal revenue. A game which sells 1 million and has a high marginal revenue could be more profitable than a game which sells 10 million copies and has low marginal revenue.

But general business sense says it's the other way around. More customers usually means more opportunities and less margin for error. Not only that, it helps to better diffuse the fixed costs among the numerous units produced (that reduces the marginal costs or cost per unit).

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HuusAsking

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#309 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts
[QUOTE="ducati101"][QUOTE="kdawg88"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"] This is a myth that needs to be destroyed. I swear, System Wars has a horrible grasp of economics. Number of units sold is NOT a good indicator of profitability. It depends on something called marginal revenue. A game which sells 1 million and has a high marginal revenue could be more profitable than a game which sells 10 million copies and has low marginal revenue.

EDIT: In other words, they're not likely to make a profit on consoles. I know what profit and revenue are, I did economics for two years at high school.

Someone needs to look at the PC software sales! It is higher than any single console.

But not on an individual title basis. It's rare for a single title to stand out.
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hypoty

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#310 hypoty
Member since 2009 • 2825 Posts

[QUOTE="ducati101"][QUOTE="kdawg88"] EDIT: In other words, they're not likely to make a profit on consoles. I know what profit and revenue are, I did economics for two years at high school.HuusAsking
Someone needs to look at the PC software sales! It is higher than any single console.

But not on an individual title basis. It's rare for a single title to stand out.

Yes, the PC userbase is very large but spread thin over hundreds of different games, genres and platforms. This is great for indie and small developers, but not good for large companies like Activision who want an explosion of sales upfront. PC games generally sell a large amount over a long period of time.

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HuusAsking

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#311 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="kdawg88"] Stop digressing, man, you know what I'm saying: I'm SAYING that games for consoles are often funded for their mass appeal; complex simulators and strategy games in practice only appeal to a select few, and that's why they're not made for consoles. This has a lot less to do with economic models than you think.

Again; assumption: complex simulations and strategy games do not require a significant less amount of investment or cost in order to make, such to the extent where the units sold do not make an appreciable impact on the total revenue. That, you have to prove. Strategies and simulators COULD earn more than these other games.

Common sense indicates that the more complex a game's computational code, the more time, effort, and money it takes to produce (and especially to produce it properly--no one wants a buggy product on the shelves). Proper simulations are, by their very nature, complex, and RTS's, particularly ones with high unit counts and many variables per unit, adds up the computational complexities very quickly.
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Esoteric_Proxy

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#312 Esoteric_Proxy
Member since 2010 • 40 Posts
PC has been lacking this gen but its not bad. Just not as good.
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WhenCicadasCry

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#313 WhenCicadasCry
Member since 2010 • 2727 Posts

Come back when a console game gets a meme like this:

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Lethalhazard

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#314 Lethalhazard
Member since 2009 • 5451 Posts
PC games usually target a niche. It's not meant to appeal to everyone. Only games that tend to appeal to a huge audience get AAAA, at least from what I've noticed. Except for Chrono Cross maybe, I can't see too many casuals trying it even if its pretty friendly.
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Esoteric_Proxy

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#315 Esoteric_Proxy
Member since 2010 • 40 Posts

Come back when a console game gets a meme like this:

WhenCicadasCry
Past gen doesn't justify price for current gen rig.
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WhenCicadasCry

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#316 WhenCicadasCry
Member since 2010 • 2727 Posts

[QUOTE="WhenCicadasCry"]

Come back when a console game gets a meme like this:

Esoteric_Proxy

Past gen doesn't justify price for current gen rig.

What has being a different gen, or price have to do with anything?

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devious742

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#317 devious742
Member since 2003 • 3924 Posts

But not on an individual title basis. It's rare for a single title to stand out.HuusAsking

Empire: Total War Breaks U.K. Sales Records

Empire: Total War has taken the number one sales spot in the U.K., a first for the franchise:

The triumph of Sega's Empire: Total War at the top of the ELSPA GfK-ChartTrack All Formats Top 40 yesterday marks the most successful debut in the history of the Total War series.

Week one sales of the title were nearly double those of both Rome: Total War and Medieval II: Total War, and is the first in the series' to claim the Top 40 top spot. It also becomes the first PC exclusive title to reach the top since Football Manager 2008 in October 2007 – another Sega PC title.

Empire: Total War's surge comes at the cost of Killzone 2, with sales of Sony's title dipping 58 per cent compared to its first week. A similar drop in sales was suffered by Microsoft's Halo Wars (-54 per cent), which slipped to fourth position, and Capcom's Street Fighter IV (-59 per cent).

Dawn Of War II Tops Global PC Sales

Dawn of War II didn't just do big business in the US. It's done big business the world over, with publishers THQ announcing that game went straight to #1 across most of the Western world.

Calling upon the same global sales data that we used to get those handy worldwide sales charts from, it's been revealed that upon release, the game went to the top spot in the US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain and Australia.

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kdawg88

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#318 kdawg88
Member since 2009 • 2923 Posts

Come back when a console game gets a meme like this:

WhenCicadasCry

Darn it! I promised myself I wouldn't play it for another month...but not any more.

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-Feath-

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#319 -Feath-
Member since 2005 • 1452 Posts

Come back when a console game gets a meme like this:

WhenCicadasCry

ffffffuuuuu, I JUST finished a play-through and now I'm starting another I hate you. Well, in a nice way.

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ducati101

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#320 ducati101
Member since 2004 • 1741 Posts

[QUOTE="WhenCicadasCry"]

Come back when a console game gets a meme like this:

-Feath-

ffffffuuuuu, I JUST finished a play-through and now I'm starting another I hate you. Well, in a nice way.

Try the nameless mod for it, absolutely amazing.

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HuusAsking

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#321 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]But not on an individual title basis. It's rare for a single title to stand out.devious742

Empire: Total War Breaks U.K. Sales Records

Empire: Total War has taken the number one sales spot in the U.K., a first for the franchise:

The triumph of Sega's Empire: Total War at the top of the ELSPA GfK-ChartTrack All Formats Top 40 yesterday marks the most successful debut in the history of the Total War series.

Week one sales of the title were nearly double those of both Rome: Total War and Medieval II: Total War, and is the first in the series' to claim the Top 40 top spot. It also becomes the first PC exclusive title to reach the top since Football Manager 2008 in October 2007 – another Sega PC title.

Empire: Total War's surge comes at the cost of Killzone 2, with sales of Sony's title dipping 58 per cent compared to its first week. A similar drop in sales was suffered by Microsoft's Halo Wars (-54 per cent), which slipped to fourth position, and Capcom's Street Fighter IV (-59 per cent).

Dawn Of War II Tops Global PC Sales

Dawn of War II didn't just do big business in the US. It's done big business the world over, with publishers THQ announcing that game went straight to #1 across most of the Western world.

Calling upon the same global sales data that we used to get those handy worldwide sales charts from, it's been revealed that upon release, the game went to the top spot in the US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain and Australia.

So out of the hundreds of PC titles that come out in a given generation, how many generate the same level of sales. I'd say you're proving rather than disproving my point. Furthermore, PC games don't seem to get the same level of media attention as the consoles (unless it's of course bad news like an MMO-induced death).

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JonSnow777

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#322 JonSnow777
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts

[QUOTE="devious742"]

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]But not on an individual title basis. It's rare for a single title to stand out.HuusAsking

Empire: Total War Breaks U.K. Sales Records

Empire: Total War has taken the number one sales spot in the U.K., a first for the franchise:

The triumph of Sega's Empire: Total War at the top of the ELSPA GfK-ChartTrack All Formats Top 40 yesterday marks the most successful debut in the history of the Total War series.

Week one sales of the title were nearly double those of both Rome: Total War and Medieval II: Total War, and is the first in the series' to claim the Top 40 top spot. It also becomes the first PC exclusive title to reach the top since Football Manager 2008 in October 2007 – another Sega PC title.

Empire: Total War's surge comes at the cost of Killzone 2, with sales of Sony's title dipping 58 per cent compared to its first week. A similar drop in sales was suffered by Microsoft's Halo Wars (-54 per cent), which slipped to fourth position, and Capcom's Street Fighter IV (-59 per cent).

Dawn Of War II Tops Global PC Sales

Dawn of War II didn't just do big business in the US. It's done big business the world over, with publishers THQ announcing that game went straight to #1 across most of the Western world.

Calling upon the same global sales data that we used to get those handy worldwide sales charts from, it's been revealed that upon release, the game went to the top spot in the US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain and Australia.

So out of the hundreds of PC titles that come out in a given generation, how many generate the same level of sales. I'd say you're proving rather than disproving my point. Furthermore, PC games don't seem to get the same level of media attention as the consoles (unless it's of course bad news like an MMO-induced death).

That's because not as many people are into PC gaming, due to the fact that it takes more knowledge of computers and a larger budget to obtain and maintain a good gaming computer, whereas consoles are cheap one-shots that you just plug in and play. But the people who take the time to understand and invest in PC gaming understand that the platform offers so much more than any of the home consoles could ever hope to.

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HuusAsking

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#323 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

[QUOTE="devious742"]

Empire: Total War Breaks U.K. Sales Records

Empire: Total War has taken the number one sales spot in the U.K., a first for the franchise:

The triumph of Sega's Empire: Total War at the top of the ELSPA GfK-ChartTrack All Formats Top 40 yesterday marks the most successful debut in the history of the Total War series.

Week one sales of the title were nearly double those of both Rome: Total War and Medieval II: Total War, and is the first in the series' to claim the Top 40 top spot. It also becomes the first PC exclusive title to reach the top since Football Manager 2008 in October 2007 – another Sega PC title.

Empire: Total War's surge comes at the cost of Killzone 2, with sales of Sony's title dipping 58 per cent compared to its first week. A similar drop in sales was suffered by Microsoft's Halo Wars (-54 per cent), which slipped to fourth position, and Capcom's Street Fighter IV (-59 per cent).

Dawn Of War II Tops Global PC Sales

Dawn of War II didn't just do big business in the US. It's done big business the world over, with publishers THQ announcing that game went straight to #1 across most of the Western world.

Calling upon the same global sales data that we used to get those handy worldwide sales charts from, it's been revealed that upon release, the game went to the top spot in the US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain and Australia.

JonSnow777

So out of the hundreds of PC titles that come out in a given generation, how many generate the same level of sales. I'd say you're proving rather than disproving my point. Furthermore, PC games don't seem to get the same level of media attention as the consoles (unless it's of course bad news like an MMO-induced death).

That's because not as many people are into PC gaming, due to the fact that it takes more knowledge of computers and a larger budget to obtain and maintain a good gaming computer, whereas consoles are cheap one-shots that you just plug in and play. But the people who take the time to understand and invest in PC gaming understand that the platform offers so much more than any of the home consoles could ever hope to.

Okay, but that makes the PC a hobbyist's platform more than a casual platform, and that limits your audience, and sales (and profits) are usually best with a large audience.

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Firelore29

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#324 Firelore29
Member since 2007 • 4158 Posts
[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

[QUOTE="JonSnow777"]

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]So out of the hundreds of PC titles that come out in a given generation, how many generate the same level of sales. I'd say you're proving rather than disproving my point. Furthermore, PC games don't seem to get the same level of media attention as the consoles (unless it's of course bad news like an MMO-induced death).

That's because not as many people are into PC gaming, due to the fact that it takes more knowledge of computers and a larger budget to obtain and maintain a good gaming computer, whereas consoles are cheap one-shots that you just plug in and play. But the people who take the time to understand and invest in PC gaming understand that the platform offers so much more than any of the home consoles could ever hope to.

Okay, but that makes the PC a hobbyist's platform more than a casual platform, and that limits your audience, and sales (and profits) are usually best with a large audience.

Tell that to World of Warcraft. What are they at now 10 million+ active users?
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pelvist

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#325 pelvist
Member since 2010 • 9001 Posts

Because PC gamers have higher standards of what makes a good game and theres no need to pay for a good review for a PC title since it doesnt need to compete with any other platform.

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HuusAsking

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#326 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

[QUOTE="JonSnow777"]

That's because not as many people are into PC gaming, due to the fact that it takes more knowledge of computers and a larger budget to obtain and maintain a good gaming computer, whereas consoles are cheap one-shots that you just plug in and play. But the people who take the time to understand and invest in PC gaming understand that the platform offers so much more than any of the home consoles could ever hope to.

Firelore29

Okay, but that makes the PC a hobbyist's platform more than a casual platform, and that limits your audience, and sales (and profits) are usually best with a large audience.

Tell that to World of Warcraft. What are they at now 10 million+ active users?

Fine. Now name me another one (monthly subscription MMO) with that level of membership? This question gets to the rarity of true PC hits (ones that mainstream media can identify) as well as the inconsistency of the MMO genre.

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devious742

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#327 devious742
Member since 2003 • 3924 Posts

So out of the hundreds of PC titles that come out in a given generation, how many generate the same level of sales. I'd say you're proving rather than disproving my point. Furthermore, PC games don't seem to get the same level of media attention as the consoles (unless it's of course bad news like an MMO-induced death).

HuusAsking

you said "It's rare for a single title to stand out" I can post more pc titles but that wasn't the point..

the point was to prove that your are wrong in saying "It's rare for a single title to stand out"

and since everyone just ignores this post Ill post it over and over again

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PCs Played More Than Any Console, Reports NPD

PCs are used for gaming more than any console and PlayStation 3 owners are more likely to have multiple consoles, according to the results of the Games Segmentation 2008 report from sales tracking and research firm The NPD Group.

In addition to stating that PlayStation 3 owners are most likely to have other "next-generation" consoles than Wii and Xbox 360 owners, NPD claimed that only 10% of PS2 owners have a PS3. In the realm of portables, 45% of PSP owners have a Nintendo DS, but only 21% of DS owners have a PSP.

Despite the broad declarations, NPD did not provide specific figures for console and PC playtime. Likewise, an exact breakdown showing the ownership patterns of those that have multiple "next-generation" consoles was absent from the release.


BioWare Says the PC is "Made For Games"

BioWare designer Daniel Erickson says the PC is "made for games" and that despite the never-ending predictions of its imminent demise, it's the "natural" platform for BioWare's RPGs.

"There was not a question when we started Old Republic - or any of our games, for that matter - [what the lead format would be]," he said. "There's a reason the lead SKU for Dragon Age was [PC] as well. When we're developing an RPG, it's a natural place to be."

PC Most Popular Format For Euro Gamers

Who's the most popular gaming format, eh? Who is? Who is? Is it you? Is it? Awwwww, yes, you ARE the most popular gaming format! You big, loveable thing you…

Oh, I'm sorry, you've caught me having a chat with my PC. Because my beautiful little boy is the most popular kid in school. According to an MCV report, as I've been saying for the last four hundred million years, the PC is by far the most popular means of playing games in the UK.

ELSPA and ISFE (Interactive Software Federation of Europe) have conducted a survey of British gamers that finds 33% of all sentient gaming humans are playing their chosen distractions on the big grey box.


Valve: Don't Believe The US Press, PC Gaming Is Alive And Well

in an interview with Good Game that slipped under the radar, Valve's business manager, Jason Holtman, said all the talk about PC gaming dieing because of some super-game console comes from "North America press looking at North American reports". "And North America retail reports don't have Europe in them, and they don't have online PCs on them, they don't have micro-transactions PCs in it. Steam has 20 million users right now and you've got figures like the Cartner Group tells us there's 260 million online PC gamers in the world

Valve: PC Gaming Alive and Well, But Developers Off Their Game

Valve's marketing vice president and frequent spokesman, Doug Lombardi, laughed off the idea that PC gaming is dying, but said other developers need to get with the program.

"I mean, I think, we sort of laugh at it," Lombardi said of increasingly high-pitched concerns over the viability of PC gaming in an interview with Shacknews.com

"Because we've been wildly successful - we're very fortunate, you know. Our games have all done really, really well, Steam has taken off and become this whole other business for us, Valve has never been in better shape - and yet everybody is talking about how in the PC world, the sky is falling," said Lombardi.

Lombardi pointed out that the sales data often cited to buttress claims of a dying PC industry do not include MMOG subscribers, Steam users, other customers of digital download services, or even other countries.

"NPD, god love 'em, they release a U.S. retail sales report, and people take that and say that's the world picture. And it's just not true...if people were looking at WoW's subscriptions alone and factoring it in, looking at Steam sales and factoring it in...Just look at what Popcap's doing - Bejeweled and Peggle and all this stuff - they're not in that NPD data."

Lombardi also said part of the brouhaha was effective PR by console makers and the absence of anything similar on the PC front.

"It is absolutely a perception problem. I mean one of the things that happens is - Microsoft has an army of PR people that work for Microsoft. They have at least two agencies that are additional armies. Nintendo I'm not as familiar with their PR outline, but I'm sure it's similar. Sony is similar. The PC has nobody," he said.

At the same time, Lombardi blasted developers for not taking accurate stock of what computers gamers have, and for aiming only at the high-end. He contrasted this with his own company, which conducts surveys twice a year to gauge the horsepower of gamers' computers.

"You know, it's hard to be able to have games that scale, and to write performance on the high end, and write performance on the bottom end, but you know, winning in any industry means some hard work, and there's a certain level of hard work that developers have to take responsibility for," he observed.

BioWare: PC gaming is in fine health

More PC players and more money being generated "than ever before"


The CEO of BioWare has told us that, contrary to numerous 'PC gaming is dying' claims, the sector's in fine health on a number of fronts.


I think there are more people playing PC games and more dollars being spent on the PC space than ever before, but it's taking a different form," Ray Muzyka said in a recent interview.


Developer Stardock Says Piracy Isn't Killing PC Gaming


There have been a lot of recent talks about the decline of PC gaming. Development studios are closing down, and companies are analysing the woes of the industry. One publisher, however, thinks it naïve to blame piracy for the decline of PC gaming sales. Stardock's latest, a space-based real-time strategy game called Sins of a Solar Empire, has sold roughly 200,000 copies since its release last month. So how has Stardock achieved success?

According to Brad Wardell, president and CEO of Stardock, (via the Sins of a Solar Empire forum) piracy is an issue, but he doesn't think it should be used as a scapegoat when a game doesn't sell. Wardwell states that there is a problem with the way that game developers currently look at the PC install base. "When you develop for a market, you don't go by the user base. You go by the potential customer base. That's what most software companies do. They base what they want to create on the size of the market they're developing for. But not PC game developers. PC game developers seem to focus more on the 'cool' factor. What game can they make that will get them glory with the game magazines and gaming websites and hard core gamers? These days, it seems like game developers want to be like rock stars more than businessmen," Wardell wrote.

Rather than trying to craft a game to get the most media coverage, Wardell approaches the situation from a financial point of view. "When I make a game, I focus on making games that I think will be the most profitable… when it comes time to make a game, I don't have a hard time thinking of a game I'd like to play. The hard part is coming up with a game that we can actually make that will be profitable. And that means looking at the market as a business not about trying to be 'cool'."

Following this approach, Wardell cites Sins of a Solar Empire's success. The game has received great critical praise, in addition to having sold nearly 200,000 copies in its first month; an amazing feat for a comparatively small budgeted title. Wardell cites the lack of copy protection on Sins of a Solar Empire as one of the myth busters to piracy killing PC gaming.

Study: PC Software Sales Up 3% To $13.1 Billion In 2009


The PC Gaming Alliance (PCGA), a non-profit PC gaming advocacy group, revealed a new research study indicating that PC gaming software revenues worldwide reached $13.1 billion in 2009, a 3 percent increase over the previous year.

That increase came in spite of decreased retail boxed sales for PC games, which suffered the "biggest downturn" out of all the sales categories PCGA tracked and now accounts for less than 20 percent of total software revenue for the year.

Digital distribution growth also largely offset losses in other PC gaming software categories. In its surveys of PC gamers in North America and Europe, the report found that 70 percent of respondents have purchased a full game online.

"The most notable trend in recent years has been the movement to digital distribution and payment for subscriptions, and the growing popularity with consumers of online games as a service," says PCGA president and Intel director Randy Stude.


Tales of PC gaming's death have been greatly exaggerated

The "death of PC gaming" has become reliable column and blog fodder for tech journalists. Perhaps it stems from lingering bitterness over time wasted editing Warcraft batch files in DOS 6.0. Regardless, you shouldn't take the idea seriously.

To prove it, we won't even lean on that most tempting pillar of PC gaming, the 12 million-strong World of Warcraft monthly subscription-paying player base. Instead we'll point to a report by Rock, Paper, Shotgun's Kieron Gillen from Britain's Develop 09 conference, specifically from a presentation on digital distribution.

Chart Track also estimated that digital distribution makes up 22 percent of the $13 billion global PC market, which boils down to $2.86 billion. If global digital distribution sales follow the same growth pattern that Chart Track projects for Steam for 2009, worldwide digital game sales will climb by $2.23 billion. That brings the global digital from from $2.86 billion in 2008 to almost $5.1 billion for 2009.

Now let's look at retail, in this case we'll use NPD's $701 million in U.S retail sales. Globally, Chart Track says PC retail sales represent 24 percent of the $13 billion pie, or $3.12 billion. That means NPD's $701 million figure represents approximately 23 percent of the worldwide retail market in 2008.

To recap our estimates for 2009:

* Global retail PC game sales: $2.37 billion (23% decrease)
* Global digital PC game sales: $5.09 billion (78% increase)
* Global in-game PC ad sales: $1.32 billion (26.8% increase)
* Global subscription and microtransactions: >$5.98 billion (unknown % increase)
* Total 2009 global PC game sales: $14.76 billion-plus (minimum 13.5% increase)

Blizzard: PC gaming is not dying out, BlizzCon proves it

In an interview with Gamasutra, Kevin Martens, Blizzard Lead Content Designer, revealed his opinion on the "PC gaming is dead" mentality that has been of much discussion lately. Martens feels that Blizzard counteracts this best by keeping system requirements low while making sure its games are still marketable.

"The death knell of PC has risen and fallen over the years, and we keep releasing PC games, and they keep doing incredibly well," said Martens. "I think that there is a market out there for PC games. The latest consoles are great; it's easy to get the game running and all that. They're useful.

"But everyone has a PC, and we try to keep our system requirements down as low as possible. That's one of the ways that we can make sure to appeal to enough people. Some of the really cutting edge games that come out for PC require a brand new video card and probably more RAM at least, if not a new CPU as well. That's really rare with Blizzard games. I think that's one of the reasons we still keep doing well.

"The best evidence that the PC market is not actually dying is the 20,000 people that showed up this year at Blizzcon, and the fact that those tickets sold out in one minute flat.

"That doesn't seem to me, that it's really good evidence, of a platform with a problem."


Sega: PC sales are stronger than reported

Growing digital sales mean that the charts don't tell the full PC games story

Publishing giant Sega has defended PC gaming, calling it a strong and vital market for the games industry.

Physical retail sales of PC games are continuing to slide in 2010, but Sega's UK MD John Clark says that isn't a fair representation of the market – with digital sales now accounting for a large proportion of revenue.

"The PC market is third in terms of its year-on-year performance with a decline of 26 per cent, but this doesn't really reflect the full picture," said Clark.

"The PC digital download business is now a viable sector but somewhat invisible as it's not yet covered by Chart-Track. The PC market overall is actually performing much better than is currently reported and remains a vital and strong sector to be involved in."

Sega was the second biggest UK PC publisher in 2009, with 12 per cent share of the market.

Meanwhile, year-to-date in 2010 the company has a 12.8 per cent share of the PC games sector. This was boosted by the strong performance last month of Aliens vs Predator, Napoleon: Total War, as well as continued sales of Football Manager 2010.

"Last month's PC chart illustrates Sega's position within this sector," added Clark.

"Napoleon: Total War, Football Manager 2010 and Aliens vs Predator are three different **** of game from three different genres. They can all drive a strong, community fan base with the ability to consistently deliver endless hours of gameplay. Incidentally, they are all developed in the UK.

"For 2009, Sega was ranked the second biggest PC publisher in the market. In 2010 year-to-date, we are once again ranked second. Long may it continue."

PC receives high-profile backing from EA

Whilst High Street sales of PC software can paint a picture of decline, the un-monitored online revenues coming from the format are drastically increasing – a fact that helped EA enjoy a strong performance on the format last year.

VG247 points out that EA released 32 PC games in its last fiscal year – far ahead of Xbox 360 (26), PS3 (23), DS (22), Wii (21), PS2 (14), PSP (8) and Xbox (1).

Revenues from EA's digital services hit $429m – up 27 per cent compared to the same period the year before.

"This is a big year for us [on PC]," said EA CFO Eric Brown. "The online part of our business is growing as much as 60 percent year over year.

"In terms of distribution, the way we look at a lot what's happening in the future is, we've got probably a billion PCs out there in the world. Very rapidly the PC is becoming the largest gaming platform in the world, just not in a packaged-good product."

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supra_800hp

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#330 supra_800hp
Member since 2010 • 29 Posts

That is indeed correect, no matter how the fanboys turn it around.

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Vandalvideo

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#331 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
But you later go on the say: "units sold which means absolutely nothing," and "units sold means CRAP." You're contradicting yourself within the same post.Mark36111
There is no contradiction here. Units sold isn't the biggest indicator of wealth. If anything, if the cost of operation is high enough, one could be in the red more-so depending on how many units they sell.

Yes you did: "Number of units sold is NOT a good indicator of profitability. It depends on something called marginal revenue.

Again, that is taking things out of context. Marginal revenue is merely one piece of the puzzle, a much larger piece than units sold. Units sold is less of an indication of wealth than MR v. MC.

This is just wrong. If you know the number of units sold, you can say definitively what the total revenue is, since marginal revenue (i.e. price) is always known. You won't be able to calculate exact profits without cost figures, but you can take two games with similar pricing and similar development cycles and come to a credible estimate of which one was more profitable based on units sold.

This is just wrong. The reason why units sold is poor indicator of wealth is the fact that if your costs are high enough, you could be in the red. The primary operators one needs to be concerned about are cost and revenue. Units sold by itself is not an indicator of wealth. It is nothing more than an exponential figure.

No. You can have a positive marginal revenue to marginal cost ratio, yet still have low or negative profits. Conversely, you can a negative ratio and still have positive profits (though theoretically you'd stop producing once MR=MC). Agan, the bottom line is that you must know both total revenue and total cost to determine profitability.

Only if you sell an extremely low amount of units AND you did not have an initial cash fund with which to begin shipping AND you were doing tangible product. It isn't necessarily the case that low units sold = poor profit.

P = Units Sold(MR-MC) is not a valid profit function. Stated differently, you're saying that P = (Q*MR) - (Q*MC), where Q = units sold. This is not the same thing as P = TR- TC. Q*MR = TR, but Q*MC =/= TC because MC is not constant across all units sold. TC = ATC * Q, where ATC is average total cost.

Yes, Units sold(MR-MC) is indeed a valid profit function. TC = MC(Units sold) and TR = MR(Units sold). Likewise, Units sold(MR-MC) is indeed a valid indicator of P. Prove to me that MC CANNOT be a constant across all units sold. Especially in this era of digital distribution.
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Vandalvideo

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#332 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
But general business sense says it's the other way around. More customers usually means more opportunities and less margin for error. Not only that, it helps to better diffuse the fixed costs among the numerous units produced (that reduces the marginal costs or cost per unit).HuusAsking
Your general business sense is wrong. If the investment is too high and you don't get enough return per product, then your profit margins go down. For instance, if you sell each console game at 60 bucks and it takes 55 bucks per product to make, and you sell 10 million copies you could potentially earn less than if you were to sell a game which takes 10 bucks to make at 60 bucks and sell 1 million copies. Units sold means absolutely, positively crap.
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Vandalvideo

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#333 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
Common sense indicates that the more complex a game's computational code, the more time, effort, and money it takes to produce (and especially to produce it properly--no one wants a buggy product on the shelves). Proper simulations are, by their very nature, complex, and RTS's, particularly ones with high unit counts and many variables per unit, adds up the computational complexities very quickly.HuusAsking
Prove to me that the average RTS costs just as much as the average shooter.
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Half-Way

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#334 Half-Way
Member since 2010 • 5001 Posts

title is misleading, it should say on GS only

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blue_hazy_basic

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#335 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts
[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

[QUOTE="Firelore29"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"]Okay, but that makes the PC a hobbyist's platform more than a casual platform, and that limits your audience, and sales (and profits) are usually best with a large audience.

Tell that to World of Warcraft. What are they at now 10 million+ active users?

Fine. Now name me another one (monthly subscription MMO) with that level of membership? This question gets to the rarity of true PC hits (ones that mainstream media can identify) as well as the inconsistency of the MMO genre.

Another one? Runescape! A non-MMO, how about Sims? The consolite myths about PC gaming have no basis in reality.
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Androvinus

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#336 Androvinus
Member since 2008 • 5796 Posts

neither does ds or the psp

TheShadowLord07
difference is the pc has been around for 500 million years
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rlake

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#337 rlake
Member since 2003 • 8438 Posts
hermits owned.
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lundy86_4

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#338 lundy86_4
Member since 2003 • 62017 Posts

hermits owned.rlake

Pretty much. I mean, screw having the most exclusives. No AAAA = ultimate OWNAGE!! :o

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#340 NerubianWeaver
Member since 2010 • 2046 Posts
[QUOTE="Firelore29"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"]

[QUOTE="JonSnow777"]

That's because not as many people are into PC gaming, due to the fact that it takes more knowledge of computers and a larger budget to obtain and maintain a good gaming computer, whereas consoles are cheap one-shots that you just plug in and play. But the people who take the time to understand and invest in PC gaming understand that the platform offers so much more than any of the home consoles could ever hope to.

Okay, but that makes the PC a hobbyist's platform more than a casual platform, and that limits your audience, and sales (and profits) are usually best with a large audience.

Tell that to World of Warcraft. What are they at now 10 million+ active users?

Also World Of Warcraft isn't a demanding game. Almost everyone can play it with their crappy PC's. Time will come that most of the games will require a high-end system just to play a certain game and it will be expensive for people. They would just rather buy consoles because it's less expensive
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HuusAsking

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#341 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts
[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]But general business sense says it's the other way around. More customers usually means more opportunities and less margin for error. Not only that, it helps to better diffuse the fixed costs among the numerous units produced (that reduces the marginal costs or cost per unit).Vandalvideo
Your general business sense is wrong. If the investment is too high and you don't get enough return per product, then your profit margins go down. For instance, if you sell each console game at 60 bucks and it takes 55 bucks per product to make, and you sell 10 million copies you could potentially earn less than if you were to sell a game which takes 10 bucks to make at 60 bucks and sell 1 million copies. Units sold means absolutely, positively crap.

But you assume that it always costs $55 per unit to make. That's why you have terms like "Economies of Scale" and why buying in bulk saves. See, you're forgetting the fixed costs involved with the game (the cost for the devkits, software, programmers, artists, other talent, and so on--these are paid regardless of how many units are sold, so they're fixed in this sense--sorta like how a factory is a fixed manufacturing cost). The marginal cost distributes the fixed costs among all the units sold, so it goes down as more are made. This also means the marginal cost can drop significantly if your variable costs (the ones that are based on units produced) are low, since the variable costs represent the an absolute minimum it'll cost to produce one unit.
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#342 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
But you assume that it always costs $55 per unit to make. That's why you have terms like "Economies of Scale" and why buying in bulk saves. See, you're forgetting the fixed costs involved with the game (the cost for the devkits, software, programmers, artists, other talent, and so on--these are paid regardless of how many units are sold, so they're fixed in this sense--sorta like how a factory is a fixed manufacturing cost). The marginal cost distributes the fixed costs among all the units sold, so it goes down as more are made. This also means the marginal cost can drop significantly if your variable costs (the ones that are based on units produced) are low, since the variable costs represent the an absolute minimum it'll cost to produce one unit.HuusAsking
Of course I'm assuming ceteris paribus. This type of information is highly proprietary. You don't know the costs. I don't know the costs. I'm merely working from a theoretical model to show the flawed assumption behind people stressing units sold. Am I stating necessarily that the costs will stay static? Absolutely not. I'm working from this model because it is logic 101. When there are unknowns you assume all things equal in order to create a hypothetical to show that it is at least possible that the other person is completely wrong. My argument is not meant to show that these people are necessarily having a constant $55 per unit cost, but merely to point out that it is possible that such costs could potentially be incurred, and it is possible that a product which sells significantly less units could still potentially earn more revenue than one which sells a huge amount of units. This is all to show one thing and one thing only, don't focus on units sold.
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HuusAsking

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#343 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]But you assume that it always costs $55 per unit to make. That's why you have terms like "Economies of Scale" and why buying in bulk saves. See, you're forgetting the fixed costs involved with the game (the cost for the devkits, software, programmers, artists, other talent, and so on--these are paid regardless of how many units are sold, so they're fixed in this sense--sorta like how a factory is a fixed manufacturing cost). The marginal cost distributes the fixed costs among all the units sold, so it goes down as more are made. This also means the marginal cost can drop significantly if your variable costs (the ones that are based on units produced) are low, since the variable costs represent the an absolute minimum it'll cost to produce one unit.Vandalvideo
Of course I'm assuming ceteris paribus. This type of information is highly proprietary. You don't know the costs. I don't know the costs. I'm merely working from a theoretical model to show the flawed assumption behind people stressing units sold. Am I stating necessarily that the costs will stay static? Absolutely not. I'm working from this model because it is logic 101. When there are unknowns you assume all things equal in order to create a hypothetical to show that it is at least possible that the other person is completely wrong. My argument is not meant to show that these people are necessarily having a constant $55 per unit cost, but merely to point out that it is possible that such costs could potentially be incurred, and it is possible that a product which sells significantly less units could still potentially earn more revenue than one which sells a huge amount of units. This is all to show one thing and one thing only, don't focus on units sold.

Sounds like a fallacy, especially if one can provide a reasonable basis to indicate that a project that employs fewer resources (fewer programmers, artists, etc.) would logically have lower fixed costs (a little inductive reasoning based on the production costs of big-team vs. small-team projects can provide enough for at least a conjecture). As a programming hobbyist, I can speak from experience that, the more variables that must be addressed in a given project, the more care must be taken to make sure Murphy doesn't rear his ugly head (and produce glitches, security holes, et al). It's also mathematically logical to say that, since the fixed portion of a marginal cost is inversely proportional to the number of units moved, the more units produced and later sold, the lower the marginal cost. Finally, we can determine a conservative estimate on the variable costs per unit based on data that's been floating around the SW boards about DVD/BD pressing prices, licensing fees, and so on.

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WhenCicadasCry

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#344 WhenCicadasCry
Member since 2010 • 2727 Posts

Gamespots greatest games of all time.

:roll:

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HFkami

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#345 HFkami
Member since 2009 • 855 Posts

[QUOTE="HFkami"]

[QUOTE="NerubianWeaver"] That only applies to people who have High-End Gaming PC's NerubianWeaver

what you forget is that if you buy a console, you probably spend money latter to another prebuilt pc to check emails or write application to get a job and other stuff.

I already have a laptop :|

dont say youre going to own it 10 years

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Arach666

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#346 Arach666
Member since 2009 • 23285 Posts

Gamespots greatest games of all time.

:roll:

WhenCicadasCry
Yup,as expected,mostly PC games.
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kdawg88

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#347 kdawg88
Member since 2009 • 2923 Posts
[QUOTE="WhenCicadasCry"]

Gamespots greatest games of all time.

:roll:

Arach666
Yup,as expected,mostly PC games.

owned...
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Vandalvideo

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#348 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
Sounds like a fallacy, especially if one can provide a reasonable basis to indicate that a project that employs fewer resources (fewer programmers, artists, etc.) would logically have lower fixed costs (a little inductive reasoning based on the production costs of big-team vs. small-team projects can provide enough for at least a conjecture). As a programming hobbyist, I can speak from experience that, the more variables that must be addressed in a given project, the more care must be taken to make sure Murphy doesn't rear his ugly head (and produce glitches, security holes, et al). It's also mathematically logical to say that, since the fixed portion of a marginal cost is inversely proportional to the number of units moved, the more units produced and later sold, the lower the marginal cost. Finally, we can determine a conservative estimate on the variable costs per unit based on data that's been floating around the SW boards about DVD/BD pressing prices, licensing fees, and so on.HuusAsking
Even if you can provide that a project would have lower fixed costs, that doesn't necessarily mean that all projects of a similar nature will. The reason why one has to employ ceteris paribus in this scenario is because you don't know the general trends of all firms in terms of cost v. benefit analysis. Why? Because companies don't release that information because it is highly proprietary. We don't have access to that information. Also, there could be "black swan events" which allow for the marginal cost to remain static. At the end of the day, this is something you simply cannot predict. This is why I was working under the model of all things considered equal. And even if we don't consider all things equal, which is the proper thing to do in this scenario, the argument can still hold water. Why? Even in a system of diminishing marginal costs, that would hold true for all products. Meaning, a product with initially higher revenue would still have higher revenue as cost curves lower. Meaning, it could still be the case that they would conceivable earn more selling fewer units. At the end of the day, the point remains; you cannot determine wealth solely based on units sold. Units sold is a poor indicator of wealth. If someone is selling at a loss, it may even be an indicator of destitution.
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NerubianWeaver

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#349 NerubianWeaver
Member since 2010 • 2046 Posts

[QUOTE="NerubianWeaver"][QUOTE="HFkami"]

what you forget is that if you buy a console, you probably spend money latter to another prebuilt pc to check emails or write application to get a job and other stuff.

HFkami

I already have a laptop :|

dont say youre going to own it 10 years

If Of course not :| If my laptop is outdated then I'll buy a new and cheaper one.
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NerubianWeaver

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#350 NerubianWeaver
Member since 2010 • 2046 Posts
[QUOTE="Arach666"][QUOTE="WhenCicadasCry"]

Gamespots greatest games of all time.

:roll:

kdawg88
Yup,as expected,mostly PC games.

owned...

Not one PC game there is AAAA though. You can't say certain game is the greatest game of all time if you don't proclaim it by giving it the right score. Still No AAAA